Fed Up Paying The 150 Baht Bad Falang Fee?

[h90]

Isn't that buying her a basic long sleeves shirt.....is surely cheaper than the cost of whitening lotion + 150 bths atm fee?

even with a hat throwing in

In Saudi Arabia they developed nice sun protecting clothes for women

[TheGoodDoctor]

Good Doctor, you ought to be a bit more clear and honest with your comments.

If you're doing a domestic ACH transfer, as you say below, from TD to the New York Branch of BKK Bank and then onto Thailand, the New York branch is charging you a fee and BKK Bank in Thailand is charging you a fee for receiving the incoming funds. The TD part may be free, but the rest is not.

TDAmeritrade Brokerage lets me make free ACH domestic transfers. I don't know if there are account minimums that need to be met for it to be free. It costs me NOTHING to get money from my TD Brokerage to my Bkk Bank account.

yes, the standard exchange rate fee, the same fee that one gets charged at an atm. my ach transfers give me the atm rate.

[jfchandler]

No... either you don't understand what I'm saying, or you're not looking at the details of your ACH transaction -- assuming you're doing a domestic U.S. bank ACH to the New York branch of BKK Bank, and then they are automatically forwarding the funds to your BKK Bank branch in Thailand.

Out of whatever amount you send, the BKKB New York branch is charging you a flat handling fee, I don't remember the exact amount, under $10 I believe, and then the BKK Bank in Thailand is charging you a percentage of the amount incoming, I believe, between 200 and 500 baht per deposit.

Those are straight fees that have nothing to do with ATM transactions. Yes, the exchange rate you get would probably be about the same as the rate for a regular Thailand ATM withdrawal -- before deducting the fees both at the New York branch and your Thailand branch.

While that method is a perfectly fine and reasonably economic way to send funds into Thailand from the U.S., it's certainly not FREE or FREE of fees -- even though TD may not be charging you a fee to originate a domestic ACH transfer. In fact, many U.S. banks provide free domestic ACH transfers...

Now, finding a U.S. bank that provides FREE international wire transfers (that would move your funds directly from a U.S. bank to your recipient Thai bank).... that's a tougher challenge.

[TheGoodDoctor]

I always check the rate I get after all of that and its usually slightly better, but never worse than the atm rate for the day. So who knows? Who cares? etc.

[Pakboong]

You don't say where on the stretch - the cheaper one could be 3 miles down the road.

It 's hard to figure how a person could travel half way around the globe on his own, but not be able to work out ways of transferring money into the country other than through the 150 bht ATM route.

The problem is that some people ignore what is expressed here.

I think the most of the people who are complaining are the ones criticizing those who are suggesting (not demanding or ridiculing) ways of easily saving some money. If some of you don't want to do that, I certainly would not criticize or ridicule your decision. I am sure the people who receive your extra money (donations) are very grateful.

The information stated in all these threads are all about choices. I for one, choose not to transfer large sums into a Thai bank, while some of you do.

Soooooooooo what.

There are two gas stations on the same stretch of Sukhumvit Road...metaphorically speaking....

One charging 30 baht per litre... The other charging 45 baht per litre... Same gas... same basic service...

To all those here who would do business with the 45 baht per litre place, and not care that there was a 30 baht per litre station just down the street, bless your hearts...

But if that's the way you spend your money... hard to figure...how you managed to save any...or how you'll have enough to keep for the future.

Continuing the logic that jfc started, if you get 50 litres and had a choice of paying 45baht/liter versus 30b/liter down the road. How far down the road would you go to save 750b. Perhaps 20k roundtrip (12 miles) and another 30 minutes, doesn't sound too far to save $23US (minus the cost of your gas). When is the last time most of you made an easy no brainer $44US tax free.

A really silly argument. If you are 100 years old your time theoretically is worth a lot more to you than the guy who is 25. We could extrapolate many other factors into this one. No point however.

[jfchandler]

As I said Good Doctor, it's a perfectly fine way to send money from the U.S. to Thailand... I've done it myself...

However, I'd suggest you not mislead other TV members reading here by saying, wrongly, that the ACH to BKK Bank New York transaction is free or that it costs the sender "nothing", when in fact there are two different fees involved from the BKK Bank end of things.

Edited October 17, 2009 by jfchandler

[donx]

TDAmeritrade Brokerage lets me make free ACH domestic transfers. I don't know if there are account minimums that need to be met for it to be free. It costs me NOTHING to get money from my TD Brokerage to my Bkk Bank account.

You are talking about free ACH domestic tranfers, but to get money to Thailand requires an international transfer. How much is the international transfer costing you?

[sabaijai]

So if your account provides fee-free international funds transfers via online banking, that's great. Which one are you using that provides that, and what kind of minimum requirements are necessary to have it?

I'd rather not name the bank but it's a checking account with no minimum balance and a maxium of five withdrawals or transfers a month. No fee for online transfers. It takes my bank a few days to confirm an account here (Thailand) or elsewhere, and after that it's just a few clicks and the transfer is usually in my Thai bank the same day, with zero charges.

[KunMatt]

So if your account provides fee-free international funds transfers via online banking, that's great. Which one are you using that provides that, and what kind of minimum requirements are necessary to have it?

I'd rather not name the bank but it's a checking account with no minimum balance and a maxium of five withdrawals or transfers a month. No fee for online transfers. It takes my bank a few days to confirm an account here (Thailand) or elsewhere, and after that it's just a few clicks and the transfer is usually in my Thai bank the same day, with zero charges.

Does your Thai account charge you for receiving a transfer from abroad this way? I know Bangkok Bank charge about 250 Baht each time.

[jfchandler]

Sabaijai.... are they doing some kind of direct transfer from the U.S. bank to your Thai bank? As in, are you using online banking to order a wire transfer direct to the Thai bank???

Or, is it some kind of intermediary two-step process, like the U.S. account ACH to BKK-New York, and then onto BKK Thailand???

[jfchandler]

I've been trying to get to the bottom of some of the past reports here about some Charles Schwab clients (and TV members) getting free international wire transfers from the U.S. to Thailand... I have a U.S. Schwab account, but have never seen that benefit offered. Here's what I've found thus far...

Schwab has many different kinds of accounts, but for this discussion, the two main ones would be:

A - Schwab One accounts based in the U.S., which generally can have no minimum balances or maintenance fees, provided you open other Schwab accounts such as checking or credit card.

B - Schwab One International accounts aimed at expats and non U.S. residents, which appear to have a minimum $25,000 balance to open.

In general, Schwab has a $25 service fee for both international and domestic outgoing wire transfers. This fee appears to apply to both Schwab's U.S. and International accounts. You cannot initiate an international wire from Schwab's checking account, but you can from their brokerage accounts, after you've mailed in a form to set-up info for the intended wire recipient.

Schwab does appear to extend some free outgoing wire service benefits to what they call their "Signature Trading" clients, those who do more than 120 equity/option trades per year, or 30 equity/option trades in either the current or prior quarter, or who have combined balances with Schwab of $1 million or more.

Schwab's services and fees booklet includes some fee waivers language for clients who have between $100,000 and $499,000 in total Schwab balances, including three free online domestic wire transfers per quarter. If you have $500,000 or more in total balances, or 36 or more stock/option trades per year, they offer three free domestic wire transfers per quarter (meaning they don't have to be initiated online).

One of those who was getting free international wires was TV member ProThaiExpat, who posted here in the past about having an international account with Schwab. The other was former TV member Backflip, who's no longer an active member, but had posted saying he had a U.S. account.

Interestingly, both in their prior TV posts talked about getting ONE free international wire transfer per quarter. In all the Schwab materials I reviewed, I couldn't find any reference to them offering free international wire transfers of any kind. Though I suppose, the International account folks might construe a client living in Thailand and wanting to send money from the U.S. to Thailand as a "domestic" transfer. Or, as often happens, banks/brokers sometimes do things outside of their written, publicly posted procedures.

If any other Schwab clients out there have any additional personal experience with their supposedly free international wire transfers, please do chime in. In the meantime, for most Schwab account holders, I'd assume the $25 per international wire fee would prevail.

PS -- The excepts pictured above came from this Schwab fees and services guide.

I suppose the main point of this is that Schwab may indeed offer some kind of free wire transfer benefits, but as best as I can tell, you likely either would need to have a pretty substantial combined balances with them and/or be a very active stock traders in order to gain that benefit. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong...

Edited October 18, 2009 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

One additional thought, particularly for folks based in Thailand: think strategically about where you keep your IRA (if you have one) these days...

It's no coincidence that some of the best banking deals to be found -- with very advantageous terms for free ATM use, ATM fee refunds charged by other banks, no foreign currency surcharges, free or discounted wire transfers, etc. -- are with brokerages/banks such as Charles Schwab, Fidelity, Vanguard, E*Trade and others.

The reality is, you don't need to be rich or a manic stock trader to take advantage of many of these kinds of accounts and deals, which often are far better for expats than accounts offered by the major U.S. banks. One reason is, many of the brokerage-banks allow you to count all/any of your accounts with them toward meeting their required balance or activity limits. That, and I suppose, they hope once you bank with them, you'll start doing other financial activities as well.

But, you don't have to be rich or trade stocks at all to benefit. For example, with E*Trade and their very good Max-Rate checking account, you'd normally need to keep a monthly balance of $5,000 or more to avoid their $15 monthly fee for an account that (like others) is paying very little interest. But, if you happen to have an IRA with E*Trade with a balance of $50,000 or more, they'll likewise waive the monthly checking account fee, even if you only keep $1 in the checking account -- allowing you to take advantage of the checking account that fully refunds Thai 150 baht ATM fees and has no foreign surcharges.

Similarly, the other brokerages typically will count the balance of an IRA you have with them (and CDs or any other kinds of balances) toward their balance requirements for having accounts or gaining perks.

So if you're someone who has an IRA sitting somewhere, hopefully, that institution is giving you some extras (in exchange for housing your money) that make your banking in Thailand just a little easier. And if they are not, it might be worth looking at some of the banking features offered by the brokerage-banks and seeing whether considering an IRA roll-over to them is worthwhile.

[jfchandler]

With the recent demise of GSB (Government Savings Bank) as a free ATM alternative, leaving only more sparsely located AEON ATMs in the free category, I've been thinking more about alternatives for moving/pulling money, such as counter withdrawals, the BKK Bank New York route, and international wires....free...if possible.

I haven't found any free international wire transfers with bank or brokerage accounts that I can find... But I have put together the beginnings of a rates sheet for the different fees charged by U.S. banks and bank-brokerages for international wire transfers. The document is in Adobe PDF format. Take a look, and if anyone has any corrections or additions, post them here, and I'll keep it updated and repost if warranted...

International_Wire_Costs_Oct_09.pdf

[gmac]

I really don't understand why people insist on continuing to use ATM's to draw cash and then moaning about the fee. It has been said many times, there is no charge if you cash the money over a Bank counter or a bank exchange kiosk. As long as your card is part of the Visa or Cirrus(?) networks just present it with your passport and draw what you want. (Subject to balance on your account and local maximum limits)......NO FEE.

[parryhandy]

^yawn , do you not think they will get round to charging (or rather skimming the xchnge rate) for this service eventually ? also its a matter of convenience....

[jfchandler]

GMAC... I don't hear anyone here "moaning"...

But to answer your question, perhaps it's because (any of the following):

--Thai ATMs always have a clear English language menu option, whereas not all Thai bank tellers are so great at understanding English.

--Thai ATMs pretty much have standard withdrawal limits, whereas individual Thai banks seem all over the map with regard to limits on counter withdrawals.

--You don't need to carry your passport around to use an ATM, but you do need to bring your passport for a counter withdrawal.

--ATM machines are pretty much operating 24/7... Thai bank branches tend to close at 3 or 3:30 pm, and mostly are not open on weekends.

--If the ATM is functioning, you pretty much are assured of getting your money. As one of the posters above reported, not all Thai bank branches seem to think they are required to do counter withdrawals, since he was told by two different Thai bank branches/companies in his home town that they don't do counter withdrawals.

--Although Thai ATMs now are charging the 150 baht fee (excluding AEON), I've noticed lately that U.S. banks are beginning to charge their own specific fees for counter withdrawals made at other banks. So your comment about NO FEE isn't necessarily true.

Chase Bank's web site says they are now charging a counter withdrawal fee to their card holders for withdrawals made at other banks of 3% of the amount withdrawn or $5, whichever is greater. Wells Fargo's web site says they are charging a $3 fee for counter withdrawals at other banks. I suspect as time passes, we will begin to see this fee virus spread...

In the world of international banking, I think it's good to see all the choices available and evaluate which option works best for someone in any particular situation. ATMs will remain part of the mix, so we ought to know how to make the best of them.

[vagabond48]

In the world of international banking, I think it's good to see all the choices available and evaluate which option works best for someone in any particular situation. ATMs will remain part of the mix, so we ought to know how to make the best of them.

hear hear!

Edited October 18, 2009 by vagabond48

[Oberkommando]

Isn't that buying her a basic long sleeves shirt.....is surely cheaper than the cost of whitening lotion + 150 bths atm fee?

even with a hat throwing in

In Saudi Arabia they developed nice sun protecting clothes for women

They don't let 'em drive either, and there's no Thais allowed in Saudi.

[TheGoodDoctor]

TDAmeritrade Brokerage lets me make free ACH domestic transfers. I don't know if there are account minimums that need to be met for it to be free. It costs me NOTHING to get money from my TD Brokerage to my Bkk Bank account.

You are talking about free ACH domestic tranfers, but to get money to Thailand requires an international transfer. How much is the international transfer costing you?

No need. They do that.

[donx]

TDAmeritrade Brokerage lets me make free ACH domestic transfers. I don't know if there are account minimums that need to be met for it to be free. It costs me NOTHING to get money from my TD Brokerage to my Bkk Bank account.

You are talking about free ACH domestic tranfers, but to get money to Thailand requires an international transfer. How much is the international transfer costing you?

No need. They do that.

Huh? I'm sorry but I don't understand you. No need for an international transfer yet they do international transfers?

Can you please explain what you mean?

[jfchandler]

The Good Doctor has been whiffing a bit too much of his own anesthetics....

Based on his banking posts, I'm not quite sure he knows, or at least can convey, what he's really doing...

Don't try to figure it out...

[jfchandler]

Back in ancient history a week or so ago, one of the more active posters here expressed some curiosity about how prevailing exchange rates might compare between ATM withdrawals, credit card purchases and debit card purchases here in Thailand...

I thought that was an interesting challenge, so I sat down today to calculate those things for my spending in late September and so far during October, in each of those categories, and comparing the results with the yardstick of the daily Xrates.com exchange rate for the U.S. $-baht, which approximates the official Interbank Exchange Rate (IER). That IER rate, which is what banks charge each other, is about the best any consumer can expect to do in currency exchange.

What I discovered thru the analysis is that it is entirely possible to live here and conduct one's finances in all three categories pretty much right in line with the IER. Somewhat to my surprise, I discovered that my purchases/withdrawals in all three categories most of the time were within .05 of a baht of the corresponding daily IER. Sometimes closer, sometimes between .05 and .10 under the IER.

How'd that happen:

For ATM withdrawals, I was only using AEON ATMs, which don't charge the 150 baht withdrawal fee. And on the U.S. end, I was using a VISA logo debit card that doesn't charge any foreign currency % fee (like 1-3%) and would reimburse the Thai 150 baht ATM fees if I were to incur one. Because the VISA card is linked to a brokerage, they also apparently are eating the VISA fee or at least not passing it along to me...

For the credit card, likewise, I was using one of the few major bank U.S. VISA logo credit cards that doesn't charge any foreign currency fee. When I compared the exchange rate for my purchases based on both the day of the purchase and the day it posted, usually a day later in the U.S., the rates lined up very close once again, always within .10 of a baht.

Then for debit card purchases, I was using two different VISA logo cards, both associated with U.S. rewards checking accounts. Card A has no foreign currency surcharge, and the rates were always within .10 baht or less of the daily corresponding IER. Card B charges a 1% VISA foreign currency surcharge, posts it as a separate transaction along with each purchase, and then refunds all those 1% amounts at month's end assuming I meet the account rules, which I always do. Thus, it too basically matched the IERs, after backing out the 1% fees that end up being refunded.

Some examples: the credit card had a 33.74 rate purchase on Sept. 17, whereas Xrates IER for that day was 33.71. I had another credit card purchase on Sept. 30 with a 33.57 rate, while the IER for the day was 33.45.

I had an ATM withdrawal on Oct. 5 that produced a rate of 33.44, while the IER for the day was 33.46. I had another ATM withdrawal using the same card on Oct. 13 that produced a 33.33 rate, whereas the Xrates IER for the day was 33.29.

For the debit card A, I had a purchase here on Oct. 9, which posted to my account on Oct. 12, that produced a rate of 33.30. The XRates IERs for those days were 33.31 and 33.33, respectively. I also had an Oct. 2 purchase with the same card, which posted to my account on Oct. 5, that produced a 33.44 rate. The XRates IERs for those two days were 33.47 and 33.46 respectively.

No foreign currency surcharges. No ATM fees either from the U.S. or Thailand. Refunds of ATM fees if I incur any. Getting the IER or very close to it on all three kinds of transactions.... Now that's what I call living the GOOD life here in Thailand...

[Moonrakers]

A friend of mine from the UK who is currently visiting is really quite happy that the charge is only 150 baht because he was expecting to be charged a lot more. I can't confess to be up-to-date with these things myself because I have had a Thai account for some time and so none of this is a problem for me.

Even if I was charged that much for withdrawals it is unlikely that I would dwell too much on it anyway after all 150 baht is just fraction of a withdrawal of 20k baht, for example.

OK yeah I get it, it's not the money it's the principal right? But a 6 page thread??.....

[mrtoad]

A friend of mine from the UK who is currently visiting is really quite happy that the charge is only 150 baht because he was expecting to be charged a lot more. I can't confess to be up-to-date with these things myself because I have had a Thai account for some time and so none of this is a problem for me.

Even if I was charged that much for withdrawals it is unlikely that I would dwell too much on it anyway after all 150 baht is just fraction of a withdrawal of 20k baht, for example.

OK yeah I get it, it's not the money it's the principal right? But a 6 page thread??.....

If memory serves me right, there are some quite significant charges on a number of ATM's back in the UK. Anyway, let's move on to page 7

[jfchandler]

Nice of you guys, who don't care about this topic, to continue reading here and contributing... After all... you....unlike everyone else here... have Thai bank accounts... So why should you care...

[mrtoad]

Nice of you guys, who don't care about this topic, to continue reading here and contributing... After all... you....unlike everyone else here... have Thai bank accounts... So why should you care...

Thanks, you're welcome.

[vagabond48]

OK yeah I get it, it's not the money it's the principal right? But a 6 page thread??.....

No offense, but about a 1/3 or more of the posts are from people like yourself arguing against those like myself, who aren't happy about the fee.

Then there are posts like mine replying to the posts like yours, which may add another 1/3.

It adds up!

[Moonrakers]

OK yeah I get it, it's not the money it's the principal right? But a 6 page thread??.....

No offense, but about a 1/3 or more of the posts are from people like yourself arguing against those like myself, who aren't happy about the fee.

Then there are posts like mine replying to the posts like yours, which may add another 1/3.

It adds up!

Do you mean posts like this one, for example?

[vagabond48]

OK yeah I get it, it's not the money it's the principal right? But a 6 page thread??.....

No offense, but about a 1/3 or more of the posts are from people like yourself arguing against those like myself, who aren't happy about the fee.

Then there are posts like mine replying to the posts like yours, which may add another 1/3.

It adds up!

Do you mean posts like this one, for example?

If you mean yours, then "yes", if you mean mine, then I guess you didn't read my post too carefully. Anyway add 2 more posts to the count.

[JimGant]

Good analysis, JFC. Now, for the quack doctor........

It costs me NOTHING to get money from my TD Brokerage to my Bkk Bank account.

It's nice TD charges nothing for domestic ACH transfers. Some, like Bank of America, do charge, mainly because they have a middleman, who also slows down the process.

But most don't charge for a domestic ACH. So, for most here, getting your money to Bangkok Bank New York is free. Then, however, we all pay to have BB NY remove the money from the ACH pipe and put it in the pipe to Thailand. For $2001 to $50000, it's $10 (here's the link showing all the variations Click Here)

Now, by example, say you sent $5,000 via ACH to your Bangkok Bank account. In reality, only $4,990 of that would leave New York for Bangkok. Once it got to Bangkok, you would receive the TT exchange rate (the same rate you'd get for a SWIFT wire transfer). And a further fee of .25% would be assessed.

So, assuming a TT rate of 33.33, your fee on the Thai end would be 416baht. This, added to the $10 front end fee, means about $22.50 in total fees. And your effective exchange rate would be 33.18.

But, there's a further cost.

If you used one of those completely fee-free cards (like Schwab, E*Trade, etc), you would get the Interbank Exchange Rate (IER), assuming a counter transaction, or no 150 baht ATM charge. And this rate is consistently about .33% better than the TT rate. So, in this example, that rate would be about 33.44.

Meaning, you lose about 1300 baht by using the ACH method for obtaining $5,000 worth of baht compared to a fee-free card. And if you did this 4 times per year, that's a 5,200 baht cost -- real beer money. Now, you could send a single $20,000 chunk, which would only cost you 3,053 baht by comparison (due to the nature of fixed cost amortization). Or, 8 x $2,500 amounts -- which would cost you 6,544 baht. When you factor in exchange rate risk, how large or small the amount you send can add further cost (or reward). If you're not a gambler, this is one more reason to go the fee-free card route.

And if you're having your pension ACHed thru Bangkok Bank New York, the above comparison holds equally true.

Also, if somehow you can SWIFT for free, you're still better off using a fee-free card. Why? Because even with no front-end fee, you still have the back-end fee -- plus the less attractive TT exchange rate.

Now, if they start charging for counter transactions........

Or, if all ATM machines begin charging (or it's not convenient to find one that doesn't)........ Lemme see. At 25000 a pop, to get my $5000 out of the ATM machine, I'd need 7 trips. 150 x 7 = 1050. Wow, I'd be 150 baht better off compared to sending $5000 via the ACH method........

Nevermind.