Will Theravada Change Its Views Toward Women?

[Xangsamhua]

"Which branch of Buddhism do women prefer?" It's only a little poll, put up six days ago on E-Sangha, but of 15 votes, 13 have said they prefer Mahayana. Is this indicative of Mahayana's greater attractiveness to women when they are able to choose?

Thai women seem to accept that, because they're Thai they have no choice but to accept the inferior status they are allotted by the Thai Sangha. Nuns can't be ordained and there's no interest in educating them. They are seen as incapable of being enlightened and a conservative reading of the Pali canon supports this view. ("It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be an Accomplished One, a fully Enlightened One - there is no such possibility." Bahudhatuka Sutta:15)

In short, the place of the female in Thai Theravada is to "pray, pay and obey" (and to feed, of course). Will things ever change?

[hansnl]

"Which branch of Buddhism do women prefer?" It's only a little poll, put up six days ago on E-Sangha, but of 15 votes, 13 have said they prefer Mahayana. Is this indicative of Mahayana's greater attractiveness to women when they are able to choose?

Thai women seem to accept that, because they're Thai they have no choice but to accept the inferior status they are allotted by the Thai Sangha. Nuns can't be ordained and there's no interest in educating them. They are seen as incapable of being enlightened and a conservative reading of the Pali canon supports this view. ("It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be an Accomplished One, a fully Enlightened One - there is no such possibility." Bahudhatuka Sutta:15)

In short, the place of the female in Thai Theravada is to "pray, pay and obey" (and to feed, of course). Will things ever change?

Probably not in your of my lifetime.

But, why should they do so?

[wolf5370]

I don't really understand this , as mt understanding is that Mahayana holds all the Theravada scriptures (Vinaya Pitaka of 5 books, Sutta Pitaka of 5 collections (many suttas) and Abhidhamma Pitaka of 7 books), but also includes further suttas, therefore, if its in Theravada as a sutta, then its also in Mahayana!

One has to remember Buddhism is about self reflection and meditating to reach the enlightened state - it is also 2.5 thousand years ago- the main tenant is impermanence (and this must include its own teaching such as they are based on a people of a time) - so what's the problem,, then based on the life of woman it was "impossible" for them to become the fully enlightened one (and a Brahman and 3 other things according to this particular sutta), it doesn't mean it is true today - we are in charge of our own karma (man or woman), so we can all reach enlightenment or not! Jumping ship because of your anxiety about some 2,500 uyear old (very likely miss quoted) homily is kind of missing the point by about a zillion miles!

[Brucenkhamen]

In short, the place of the female in Thai Theravada is to "pray, pay and obey" (and to feed, of course). Will things ever change?

This is true in Thailand, it is less so in Burma and Sri Lankha. In the west there are many women teachers teaching Theravada practices in a non sectarian way, possibly nearly as many women teachers as men. However if women want to ordain there are less good options, I've met both Thai and Western women women who have expressed frustration with that.

Still I don't see them moving over to Mahayana in droves, so I'd say the style of practice is more important than the opportunities to ordain or lack thereof.

When I've done retreats in Burma there have been many Korean, Chinese, and Vietnamese nuns who have either ordained in Mahayana or in Theravada as the Burmese equivilent of Mae Chee.

Over the years I've done upward of 30 retreats at different places, attended various sitting groups and workshops, almost all Theravada. Women almost always outnumber men, sometimes significantly. I can only recall one retreat where I noticed there were more men than women.

I think the e-sangha poll is more a reflection of the ratio on e-sangha.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Brucenkhamen

[fabianfred]

Women experience more suffering than men, and generally are more patient too, so they are more attracted to meditation and more persistent. They can certainly reach any of the four Noble stages from Sotapanna to arahant.... and once they achieved those states I think they would stop complaining about having been born women and getting the short end of the stick.

At Wat Rampoeng, Chiangmai there are a large number of MaeChii, some of them do instruction and give dhamma talks and are obviously attained.

[Xangsamhua]

I would think that referring back to the Buddha's reported words in the sutta to justify refusal to support female ordination is perhaps more fundamentalist than just conservative. That is a problem to do with a heavily scripture-based approach. When does one see the Buddha's words to have abiding meaning and when just context-bound?

I think the Thai Sangha maintain that they can't ordain women because they don't have the authority. It seems legalistic, a bit like arguments over the validity of priestly ordination in some of the Christian churches. The fact that women can be ordained in another Theravadan school, the Syam Nikaya in Sri Lanka, tells us that the issue is one concerning the Thai Sangha rather than the Theravada tradition. It's ironic that this tradition was founded by a Siamese monk, Ven. Upali Thera, in the 18th century.

Religions adapt to and syncretize with their cultural environment; hence one should be cautious about judging their practices too harshly. However, Thailand does not have a strong patriarchal culture in other respects. Women are in senior positions in government, academia, business (especially the financial sector) and education - I'm not sure about the law - so why such blatant discrimination in the religion of 95% of the people? I can't see it lasting. I think it will change sooner than some of us think.

I don't know if there are any women who post to this Buddhism forum. Not many, I think, so I doubt a similar poll here would get many voters.

[rockyysdt]

I don't know if there are any women who post to this Buddhism forum. Not many, I think, so I doubt a similar poll here would get many voters.

I'm male but I would vote for female ordination.

Anything else would be un-Buddhist like.

Edited September 13, 2009 by rockyysdt

[bankei]

I think that the Thai Sangha won't allow women to ordain because they think the ordination had died out and cannot be revived. That is the 'way it is' and they like to keep it that way. Luckily not every Thai monk thinks like that and things are slowly changing. There are no over 30 fully ordained Bhikkhuni in Thailand and more on the way.

[TongueThaied]

"Which branch of Buddhism do women prefer?" It's only a little poll, put up six days ago on E-Sangha, but of 15 votes, 13 have said they prefer Mahayana. Is this indicative of Mahayana's greater attractiveness to women when they are able to choose?

Thai women seem to accept that, because they're Thai they have no choice but to accept the inferior status they are allotted by the Thai Sangha. Nuns can't be ordained and there's no interest in educating them. They are seen as incapable of being enlightened and a conservative reading of the Pali canon supports this view. ("It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be an Accomplished One, a fully Enlightened One - there is no such possibility." Bahudhatuka Sutta:15)

In short, the place of the female in Thai Theravada is to "pray, pay and obey" (and to feed, of course). Will things ever change?

Mahayana branch controlled the Sangha back in the early 30's and before. They have always been more egalitarian than Theravada and were banished from the Sangha to the far reaches of Isaan by a coup of sorts staged by those in power who favored a strict hierachical structure with one person at the top (Theravada). One of the most famous Mahayana monks who lead the Sangha at one point was even accused of being communist and defrocked. I would cite my source, but last time I did that, it was edited out. You might want to peruse books on Thailand by Paul Handley on Amazon or Google books (Google has lengthy excerpts). In case you haven't noticed, Buddhism here is any thing but pure Buddhism. It is about 60% animism (they had to bring in 999 monks to rid Suvarnabhumi Airport spirits and ghosts before it could open) and is quite political.

[camerata]

Mahayana branch controlled the Sangha back in the early 30's and before.

Since we know the book you're referring to, how about you just quote the part about the "Mahayana branch" controlling the Sangha in the 30s? Just don't make references to royalty. What was this Mahayana branch called? I think you're getting confused between the Maha Nika and the Dhammayuttika Nikaya sects, neither of which were Mahayana. They are both Theravada. What was the name of the famous Mahayana monk who led the Sangha at one point and was accused of being communist and defrocked?

[fabianfred]

The Buddha was at first very reluctant to ordain women. Bhikhunis were ordained by Bhikhunis and monks. When the lineage died out there were no more Bhikhunis to ordain women. Sri Lankha women went to Taiwan where there was still female ordination available, albeit Mahayana, with Theravada monks. Thai women went to Sri Lankha and got ordained there.

We must remember that the Sangha...monks or Bhikhunis... are dependant upon the community for their support, so if the community do not see them as real Bhikhunis then they will not support them.

The venerable Upali headed the group of Thai monks from Ayuddhaya who returned full ordination to Sri Lankha. It had been lost in the sixteenth century when the tamils slaughtered all the monks and only a single novice survived by fleeing into the jungle. He came out at the age of 57 and was the first monk to be ordained by the Ven. Upali group.

Edited September 13, 2009 by fabianfred

[sabaijai]

"Which branch of Buddhism do women prefer?" It's only a little poll, put up six days ago on E-Sangha, but of 15 votes, 13 have said they prefer Mahayana. Is this indicative of Mahayana's greater attractiveness to women when they are able to choose?

Thai women seem to accept that, because they're Thai they have no choice but to accept the inferior status they are allotted by the Thai Sangha. Nuns can't be ordained and there's no interest in educating them. They are seen as incapable of being enlightened and a conservative reading of the Pali canon supports this view. ("It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be an Accomplished One, a fully Enlightened One - there is no such possibility." Bahudhatuka Sutta:15)

In short, the place of the female in Thai Theravada is to "pray, pay and obey" (and to feed, of course). Will things ever change?

Mahayana branch controlled the Sangha back in the early 30's and before. They have always been more egalitarian than Theravada and were banished from the Sangha to the far reaches of Isaan by a coup of sorts staged by those in power who favored a strict hierachical structure with one person at the top (Theravada). One of the most famous Mahayana monks who lead the Sangha at one point was even accused of being communist and defrocked. I would cite my source, but last time I did that, it was edited out. You might want to peruse books on Thailand by Paul Handley on Amazon or Google books (Google has lengthy excerpts). In case you haven't noticed, Buddhism here is any thing but pure Buddhism. It is about 60% animism (they had to bring in 999 monks to rid Suvarnabhumi Airport spirits and ghosts before it could open) and is quite political.

You've confused the Mahayana school of Buddhism with the Mahanikai monastic sect in Thailand. Mahayana has never controlled the Sangha in Thailand. Mahanikai is 100% Theravada.

I also do not see that women's preference for Mahayana in a poll necessarily means we can conclude that "In short, the place of the female in Thai Theravada is to "pray, pay and obey" (and to feed, of course)." Without a further survey asking for reasons, there is no obvious correlation between that highly speculative conclusion and the poll results.

In fact there is a lot more praying and obeying in Mahayana practice, in my observation. YMMV

[Xangsamhua]

I also do not see that women's preference for Mahayana in a poll necessarily means we can conclude that "In short, the place of the female in Thai Theravada is to "pray, pay and obey" (and to feed, of course)." Without a further survey asking for reasons, there is no obvious correlation between that highly speculative conclusion and the pll results.

In fact there is a lot more praying and obeying in Mahayana practice, in my observation. YMMV

I'm sure you couldn't conclude that from the poll, Sabaijai, but it comes to mind as an observation. However, my personal observation of women at Theravada temples and ceremonies could well be too limited (I stopped going to any about ten years ago, apart from the obligatory funeral rites). I'd also have to admit that most of my direct observation has taken place in Lao settings, either in Laos or in the Lao diaspora. Thais may be more switched on.

Cheers

Xangsamhua

[agent69]

They can certainly reach any of the four Noble stages from Sotapanna to arahant.... and once they achieved those states I think they would stop complaining about having been born women and getting the short end of the stick.

quite true.

[TongueThaied]

Mahayana branch controlled the Sangha back in the early 30's and before.

Since we know the book you're referring to, how about you just quote the part about the "Mahayana branch" controlling the Sangha in the 30s? Just don't make references to royalty. What was this Mahayana branch called? I think you're getting confused between the Maha Nika and the Dhammayuttika Nikaya sects, neither of which were Mahayana. They are both Theravada. What was the name of the famous Mahayana monk who led the Sangha at one point and was accused of being communist and defrocked?

I stand corrected. The division within Theravada was between the more egalitarian Mahanikay (sorry, not Mahayana -- confused by all the "M" words) sect of which Phra Phimontham was a leader, and and the highly elitist Thammayut sect, which eventually took over the sangha. In 1960, Phra Phimontham was arrested and charged by police, falsely, with homosexual behavior, improper dress, and communist leanings. He was ordered to disrobe. When he refused, he was stripped of all his clerical titles and reduced to a common monk. In 1962, he was rearrested, declared a threat to national security (sounds a little like Bush America) for supporting communists, forcibly disrobed and imprisoned for four years. This completed the Thammayut sect’s takeover of the sangha.

[camerata]

The division within Theravada was between the more egalitarian Mahanikay (sorry, not Mahayana -- confused by all the "M" words) sect of which Phra Phimontham was a leader, and and the highly elitist Thammayut sect,

Is there any evidence that nuns are treated in a more egalitarian way in the Mahanikaya sect?

[camerata]

"Which branch of Buddhism do women prefer?" It's only a little poll, put up six days ago on E-Sangha, but of 15 votes, 13 have said they prefer Mahayana. Is this indicative of Mahayana's greater attractiveness to women when they are able to choose?

It could be related to the attractiveness of Mahayana in general. Probably the most popular form of Mahayana Buddhism (in the West) is Tibetan, which features a close relationship with a (usually male) guru. Perhaps women like that. Perhaps more men prefer to "go it alone." Anyway, as far as I recall, in some or all Tibetan sects women can be nuns, lamas or tulkus, but they can't be fully ordained bhikkhunis yet.

[Mario2008]

I have set 1 post under review, as it links to a source we are not sure is allowed in Thailand and could be deemed offensive to the monarchy.

Edit:

The link is to a book that is banned in Thailand. I have therefor deleted the link.

[sabaijai]

I would question labelling the Thammayut Nikai 'highly elitist.' King Rama IV founded the sect as a reform movement within the Sangha in reaction to lax following of the vinaya (monastic discipline) by the majority of Thai monks at the time. Several of the early forest meditation masters in northeastern Thailand, from very humble backgrounds, were Thammayut monks. The Thammayut sect has a more strict monastric discipline and its monks tend to practice meditation as well as scriptures, while Mahanikai monks tend to specialise in one or the other.

The Thammayut has in no way 'taken over' the Sangha just because the Sangharaja happens to be Thammayut. The conspiracy angle noted by TongueThaied is controversial and the evidence purely circumstantial (like much in Handley's book). The majority of monks belong to the Mahanikai sect, outnumbering Thammayut monks 35 to 1, and they practice as such with zero interference from the Thammayut heirarchy.

[RubbaJohnny]

Thai women are not so dim as to need \enlightenment from corupted debased Hindu influenced Sanghka

I have a wonderful collection of fotos of monks smoking drinking and wealthy abbots feasting

Compared to Mahayana or decvotion in in S lanka Siam is still at a Leo Te Coon level

PS I did my time in Buddhgaya Tibetan and Lanks monasteries none of which have the rigour of Zen or Benedictine outfits

Here its a hangover from a mangled alien culture mixed with magic withcraft folklore guilt and hierarchic hegemony.

Just witness the pre month atthe monastery whoring by well connected youths

How Many Paddys Hum?

[wolf5370]

I would question labelling the Thammayut Nikai 'highly elitist.' King Rama IV founded the sect as a reform movement within the Sangha in reaction to lax following of the vinaya (monastic discipline) by the majority of Thai monks at the time. Several of the early forest meditation masters in northeastern Thailand, from very humble backgrounds, were Thammayut monks. The Thammayut sect has a more strict monastric discipline and its monks tend to practice meditation as well as scriptures, while Mahanikai monks tend to specialise in one or the other.

The Thammayut has in no way 'taken over' the Sangha just because the Sangharaja happens to be Thammayut. The conspiracy angle noted by TongueThaied is controversial and the evidence purely circumstantial (like much in Handley's book). The majority of monks belong to the Mahanikai sect, outnumbering Thammayut monks 35 to 1, and they practice as such with zero interference from the Thammayut heirarchy.

SJ, I have been told we are not allowed to mention the monarchy in any way, shape or form - either living or past - and a SuperMod to boot - tut, tut, tut!

[sabaijai]

When it's a matter of Thai historical record, it's fine to mention the monarchy.

Thai women are not so dim as to need \enlightenment from corupted debased Hindu influenced Sanghka

I have a wonderful collection of fotos of monks smoking drinking and wealthy abbots feasting

Compared to Mahayana or decvotion in in S lanka Siam is still at a Leo Te Coon level

PS I did my time in Buddhgaya Tibetan and Lanks monasteries none of which have the rigour of Zen or Benedictine outfits

Here its a hangover from a mangled alien culture mixed with magic withcraft folklore guilt and hierarchic hegemony.

Just witness the pre month atthe monastery whoring by well connected youths

How Many Paddys Hum?

My observations re Sri Lanka are that the Vinaya is better observed in Thailand.

[wolf5370]

When it's a matter of Thai historical record, it's fine to mention the monarchy.

Mmmm as its also illegal to talk about moderating, I'll just say that that is not a universally held view here (I have a PM - and warning - to prove - also for a historical non insulting fact) - nuff said, don't want to slip off that fine-line and all

[sabaijai]

When it's a matter of Thai historical record, it's fine to mention the monarchy.

Mmmm as its also illegal to talk about moderating, I'll just say that that is not a universally held view here (I have a PM - and warning - to prove - also for a historical non insulting fact) - nuff said, don't want to slip off that fine-line and all

Send me a msg if you'd like, with a copy of the PM you received and we'll straighten this out. Perhaps your PM is from a newer mod or perhaps one of you has misinterpreted the other At any rate, use the PM function, thanks.