Us Visa Denied For Thai Gf W/o Due Process - Options To Appeal?

[bendshead]

I've had a Thai gf since April. About two weeks ago (mid-Sept) I returned to the US for a short-term work engagement. We had planned for her to come out to visit for a week at end of October. We followed all of the documentation requirements but found they weren't even needed. read on to see why. She went for the interview this morning. What transpired took about one minute before she was flatly denied.

The interviewer asked my girlfriend four questions:

1. "How long have you been dating?" "Six months."

2. "How old is your boyfriend?" "37 years old."

3. "How old are you?" "21 years old." And she asked again, "You are 21 but your boyfriend is 37?"

4. "When will you graduate?" "Next year."

After that the interviewer said she was sorry that the application was refused and she didn't require my girlfriend to furnish ANY of the documentation we prepared (including financial statements, her father's governor card, my sponsorship letter, everything out of the "rulebook" etc. etc.)

The interviewer returned a document that said: "I have not been able to demonstrate sufficiently strong family, social or economic ties to a country outside the U.S. that would compel you to leave the United States after a temporary stay."

What the hel_l does that mean? I could go on and on about our credibility, but that's not even the point here. The interviewer asked about our ages and then made a completely unreasonable assumption.

Do we have any options to appeal? This does not appear to be the process we are due. We are both very insulted.

Thanks for your guidance and support.

[moe666]

That is about par for the course, a friends girlfriend was denied for a similar reason she had graduated from college but because she had no job to return to she was denied a tourist visa. They applied for a fiance visa and it was approved and they have been married about 7 years now and are happy in Thailand.

[brucehosking]

I've had a Thai gf since April. About two weeks ago (mid-Sept) I returned to the US for a short-term work engagement. We had planned for her to come out to visit for a week at end of October. We followed all of the documentation requirements but found they weren't even needed. read on to see why. She went for the interview this morning. What transpired took about one minute before she was flatly denied.

The interviewer asked my girlfriend four questions:

1. "How long have you been dating?" "Six months."

2. "How old is your boyfriend?" "37 years old."

3. "How old are you?" "21 years old." And she asked again, "You are 21 but your boyfriend is 37?"

4. "When will you graduate?" "Next year."

After that the interviewer said she was sorry that the application was refused and she didn't require my girlfriend to furnish ANY of the documentation we prepared (including financial statements, her father's governor card, my sponsorship letter, everything out of the "rulebook" etc. etc.)

The interviewer returned a document that said: "I have not been able to demonstrate sufficiently strong family, social or economic ties to a country outside the U.S. that would compel you to leave the United States after a temporary stay."

What the hel_l does that mean? I could go on and on about our credibility, but that's not even the point here. The interviewer asked about our ages and then made a completely unreasonable assumption.

Do we have any options to appeal? This does not appear to be the process we are due. We are both very insulted.

Thanks for your guidance and support.

It's brutal isn't it? They play god with those visa's. It may not be the best option but it's easier to just get married. I am 42 and my thai wife is 24. We are awesome together but the first tourist visa for her to get to australia took a month of BS and I think we only got it in the end because we were married. She is now getting a second tourist visa as we are not interested in the spouse visa - its just too much of an intrusion and for someone like me who has lived in many countries, its just way too much hassle. I had a friend who met a girl in the Philippines and tried twice to get a tourist visa for her - both times refused. They have all the power at the embassy and they don't treat the girls very nicely when they apply, more like they are criminals. Good luck with it but in the end your options will be go there to live for a while or get married and then they have to take the application a bit more seriously.

[mario299]

I've had a Thai gf since April. About two weeks ago (mid-Sept) I returned to the US for a short-term work engagement. We had planned for her to come out to visit for a week at end of October. We followed all of the documentation requirements but found they weren't even needed. read on to see why. She went for the interview this morning. What transpired took about one minute before she was flatly denied.

The interviewer asked my girlfriend four questions:

1. "How long have you been dating?" "Six months."

2. "How old is your boyfriend?" "37 years old."

3. "How old are you?" "21 years old." And she asked again, "You are 21 but your boyfriend is 37?"

4. "When will you graduate?" "Next year."

After that the interviewer said she was sorry that the application was refused and she didn't require my girlfriend to furnish ANY of the documentation we prepared (including financial statements, her father's governor card, my sponsorship letter, everything out of the "rulebook" etc. etc.)

The interviewer returned a document that said: "I have not been able to demonstrate sufficiently strong family, social or economic ties to a country outside the U.S. that would compel you to leave the United States after a temporary stay."

What the hel_l does that mean? I could go on and on about our credibility, but that's not even the point here. The interviewer asked about our ages and then made a completely unreasonable assumption.

Do we have any options to appeal? This does not appear to be the process we are due. We are both very insulted.

Thanks for your guidance and support.

It's brutal isn't it? They play god with those visa's. It may not be the best option but it's easier to just get married. I am 42 and my thai wife is 24. We are awesome together but the first tourist visa for her to get to australia took a month of BS and I think we only got it in the end because we were married. She is now getting a second tourist visa as we are not interested in the spouse visa - its just too much of an intrusion and for someone like me who has lived in many countries, its just way too much hassle. I had a friend who met a girl in the Philippines and tried twice to get a tourist visa for her - both times refused. They have all the power at the embassy and they don't treat the girls very nicely when they apply, more like they are criminals. Good luck with it but in the end your options will be go there to live for a while or get married and then they have to take the application a bit more seriously.

My experience with dealing with the American Embassy

I was able to get a visitor visa for my wife, we are officially married under Thai Law, to see America in March, 2007, but when we tried to get a visitor visa for my step-daughter to be a part of our American wedding in October, 2007 they flatly turned us down. The VERY RUDE embassy official gave us the same reply you got...unable to guarantee that our daughter had sufficient family ties to guarantee return to Thailand...and suggested that "maybe it would be easier if she had a job to return to"..SHE IS 12 YEARS OLD.

We had our American wedding without our daughter, which will remain in my thoughts forever, and we have subsequently obtained visas to immigrate to America, if we choose. (K-3, K-4), but I honestly do not think we will choose this option after our humiliating and embarrassing ordeal in front of the American Embassy gods.

Good luck and we wish you the best.

mario299

[beano2274]

A relationship of 6 months sometimes means no visa, the British Embassy likes a relationship to have been 1 year most of the time.

I would appeal if possible stating that she has to return to graduate from University, hopefully take some documentation to show that she has to attend and is a good student, dependant on which University get them to write a letter about how good she is. But the length of the relationship is a major sticking point from my view point.

But good luck to you, and do appeal if you can.

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

Unfortunately, under section 214b of the Immigration and Nationality Act the Consular Officers are legally forced to presume that an applicant is a prospective immigrant unless the applicant can demonstrate strong evidence to the contrary. You can ask for a reconsideration, but based upon the facts you have described I am doubtful that they would overturn this decision.

I hope this was helpful and sorry to hear about the bad luck.

All the Best,

Benjamin Hart

Edited October 2, 2009 by DirectorIntegrityLegal

[theoldgit]

Unfortunately, under section 214b of the Immigration and Nationality Act the Consular Officers are legally forced to presume that an applicant is a prospective immigrant unless the applicant can demonstrate strong evidence to the contrary.

Yes, but reading the original post the official was only concerned about the age difference and apparantly made the decision on that, the official doesn't seem to have looked at the evidence so wouldn't have known how strong the evidence was - or have I missed something?

[bendshead]

Unfortunately, under section 214b of the Immigration and Nationality Act the Consular Officers are legally forced to presume that an applicant is a prospective immigrant unless the applicant can demonstrate strong evidence to the contrary.

Yes, but reading the original post the official was only concerned about the age difference and apparantly made the decision on that, the official doesn't seem to have looked at the evidence so wouldn't have known how strong the evidence was - or have I missed something?

theoldgit -- That is exactly right; no decision was made based upon the extensive documentation we gathered and prepared to show the embassy because the embassy flatly refused to look at it. Their decision was based on a couple of questions relating to our age difference. The fact of the matter, that I didn't really want to get into here, is that she is indeed a top student at a top university with every reason to go back and finish. Both parents are government officials. She has her own money etc. etc. I could go on but what's the point? We did what the embassy required, but they wouldn't even look at it. They took the application money, too. As a friend pointed out, this whole ordeal just perpetuates the perception of the ugly, controlling, opinionated American. I'm insulted and embarrassed by this. Really.

I've seen some law firms on the web that assist with appeals. Has anyone gone this route?

Thanks again for all of your support everyone. It helps a bit after a blow like this.

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

I'm not trying to guess what the Consular Officer was thinking, but the fact that she admitted (as she should have if it was the truth) to dating an American would probably be enough to make an inference that the applicant did not overcome the presumption of immigrant intent under 214b. The applicant must show sufficient strong ties to Thailand and sufficient weak ties to the USA. Having an American boyfriend was likely viewed as a sufficient strong tie to the USA that thereby mitigated against whatever strong ties she has to Thailand. I cannot comment as to why they asked about the age difference.

Regarding a request for reconsideration, I do not want to seem pessimistic, but I doubt the request would result in a favorable decision. Technically speaking, a Consul or Vice-Consul's factual determination is unappealable per the doctrine of Consular Absolutism. That being said, you can ask them to reconsider, but there needs to be compelling reason as they do not like overturning another officer's decision.

[thaihome]

To my knowledge, there is no appeal process for a tourist visa. At best you can re-apply and present further evidence. Unfortunately it does not seem the relationship has been long enough for them to accept that with you living in Thailand she will return with you. I’m not sure the age difference which you are focusing on is really the issue. A friend of mine’s girlfriend was given a visa last month (they are in the US now). They presented evidence of her being a partner in a business, him living here on retirement visa extensions for 4 years, and their relationship (joint bank accounts, etc) of some 3 years. He is 67 and she is 31. Should also add they have visited several other countries, including some in Europe.

Perhaps a better strategy would be to establish some record of visiting other countries, such as Singapore or China/HK and returning, then reapply after 6 months or so.

TH

[Gary A]

An American friend of mine asked me if I would help his Thai girlfriend get a visa so that she could visit him in the US. Some of the details are that the woman was 40 years old, owned property and had a business.

We filled out all the necessary paperwork and went to the embassy. I walked to the window with her and the snotty farang woman told me that this was none of my business and to go sit down. I had not said a word. Within about 2 minutes the Thai lady came back crying. She was turned down without any explanation. I got up and was headed to the window to give the snotty farang woman a piece of my mind but the Thai lady had hold of my arm and begged me to forget it.

[theoldgit]

I think the thing that still concerns me is that the official seems to have made his/her mind up without looking at the evidence that they ask for.

My partner and I could find ourselves in a similar position when we plan to visit the US sometime next year. My partner is substantially younger that me, we have a sustaining relationship and are in our our third year of living together in Thailand, she works and goes to college and we have travelled extensively out of Thailand, including the UK and Europe where she received her visas on the first application. You would think that she would have a good chance of being granted a tourist visa, but surely the official needs to look at the evidence before making a decision, and not making up their mind on first impressions.

Ben, I accept that you are the expert and I am most certainly not.

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

I think the thing that still concerns me is that the official seems to have made his/her mind up without looking at the evidence that they ask for.

My partner and I could find ourselves in a similar position when we plan to visit the US sometime next year. My partner is substantially younger that me, we have a sustaining relationship and are in our our third year of living together in Thailand, she works and goes to college and we have travelled extensively out of Thailand, including the UK and Europe where she received her visas on the first application. You would think that she would have a good chance of being granted a tourist visa, but surely the official needs to look at the evidence before making a decision, and not making up their mind on first impressions.

Ben, I accept that you are the expert and I am most certainly not.

I don't think anyone can claim true expertise with regard to the tourist visa because the approval is highly discretionary. With that being said, are you a US Citizen? Oddly enough, it is somewhat easier for someone to get a tourist visa for a Thai significant other if they are from somewhere other than the US. Again, the Consular officers view these applicants as less likely to use the Tourist visa to travel to the US, get married, and file for adjustment of status.

The few Tourist visa interviews that I have seen are actually quite thorough. However, each interview is different and it seems as though the duration of the interview is at least somewhat dictated by the Consulate's caseload on that day.

All the Best!

Edited October 2, 2009 by DirectorIntegrityLegal

[Jimjim]

I sympathize with the OP but frankly the embassy has every right to turn down any application for any reason, and it's pretty clear the fee is non-refundable whether your application is successful or not.

[bendshead]

Are there any other countries where it might be easier for her to get a visa so that we can at least see each other as planned? I'm thinking some place closer to the U.S. like Belize, Mexico, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, etc.

[seesip]

Are there any other countries where it might be easier for her to get a visa so that we can at least see each other as planned? I'm thinking some place closer to the U.S. like Belize, Mexico, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, etc.

Canada?

[bendshead]

Are there any other countries where it might be easier for her to get a visa so that we can at least see each other as planned? I'm thinking some place closer to the U.S. like Belize, Mexico, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, etc.

Canada?

That's a question or suggestion. Canada is worth the trip. Is it worth the trip to Canada's embassy though?

[kwonitoy]

You won't find any joy at the Canadian Embassy.

I went with my legaly married Thai wife (At that time married for 5 years, together for 10) for a tourist visa for Canada several years back, I recearched the paperwork required on the internet and had everything in order when we went to apply. I am a registered Non-resident of Canada with no ties to the country and thought it would be no problem. I was treated as if I was there to smuggle her into the country and leave her there. Most of the joint interview was directed to me with the lady trying to trip me up as to what my real address was in Canada. I kept explaing to her I don't live in Canada, I don't work in Canada we just want to go there for one month to introduce her to my mother and family. We showed her bank accounts, chanots for 100 Rai of land in her name, chanot for the country house etc. After 2 hours of BS we were both ready to walk out. The embassy lady then asked to see my wife's RETURN ticket. I said I hadn't booked flights yet as I didn't have the visa yet. She told me very rudely to bring a return ticket for her and the visa would be issued. I did and it was.

I have had friends with the same experiences some having to return to the embassy up to 5 times and still not getting a visa to Canada

[Pakboong]

When your girl friend re-applies, have her leave any reference to you as her boy friend, sponsor, etc... off the application. If she has her own money and is at a top University as you say, your involvement with her actually hurts/destroys her chances of getting a tourist visa.

[flying]

I have not read all the posts but from my view it was this......

4. "When will you graduate?" "Next year."

My girl friend ...now my wife a few years ago went in for a tourist visa.

Got it no problem. But we showed she had two businesses in Thailand.

Owned a condo,car etc. Had compelling reason to return to Thailand.

I think as soon as they saw your gf was only a student still that all went out the window.

You can try again & good luck I know it is not easy.

It is no problem to say she is your gf & best to be honest. But...show compelling reason for her return to LOS.

PS: I also quoted this in my invite letter & showed she had medical insurance etc & would be no burden on the US during her stay.

I was told that it states in the foreign affairs manual the following & feel we are an example of number one listed below …

(N11.1-1 of the Foreign Affairs Manual):

(1) Simply to meet the family of his and/or her fiance;

(2) To become engaged;

(3) To make arrangements for the wedding; or

(4) To renew a relationship with the prospective spouse

Edited October 3, 2009 by flying

[tripplejjj]

theoldgit -- That is exactly right; no decision was made based upon the extensive documentation we gathered and prepared to show the embassy because the embassy flatly refused to look at it. Their decision was based on a couple of questions relating to our age difference. The fact of the matter, that I didn't really want to get into here, is that she is indeed a top student at a top university with every reason to go back and finish. Both parents are government officials. She has her own money etc. etc. I could go on but what's the point? We did what the embassy required, but they wouldn't even look at it. They took the application money, too. As a friend pointed out, this whole ordeal just perpetuates the perception of the ugly, controlling, opinionated American. I'm insulted and embarrassed by this. Really.

I've seen some law firms on the web that assist with appeals. Has anyone gone this route?

Thanks again for all of your support everyone. It helps a bit after a blow like this.

I feel for you, especially the money part. But that is just the way it is. Getting a law firm is just a waste of your money, her time, and everyone's resources. Try asking her to get a tourist visa on her own without being tied to you as a "girlfriend". Being a girlfriend/boyfriend doesn't give any one the RIGHTs to visit America. It sounds harsh.

[britmaveric]

Actually thought it was quite easy to get a yank 10yr tourist visa for Ms. Brit. The interview was done in 10min. I think far easier as someone states get a visa for another country rather than your home country.

[thaihome]

I think the thing that still concerns me is that the official seems to have made his/her mind up without looking at the evidence that they ask for.

My partner and I could find ourselves in a similar position when we plan to visit the US sometime next year. My partner is substantially younger that me, we have a sustaining relationship and are in our our third year of living together in Thailand, she works and goes to college and we have travelled extensively out of Thailand, including the UK and Europe where she received her visas on the first application. You would think that she would have a good chance of being granted a tourist visa, but surely the official needs to look at the evidence before making a decision, and not making up their mind on first impressions.

Ben, I accept that you are the expert and I am most certainly not.

Please read my post #10. That is almost exactly the situation for my firend. His GF now has 10 year multi entry visa.

TH

[gohmer]

My G.F. and I had the same experience in Sept '09, and we hired a US Immigration attorney in BKK. I don't believe the questions they as the girls are relevant in regards to decisions they make. I believe they've scanned the docs in the back room, take a quick look at the girl and have already decided before they come in. I also believe the humiliation is to make that person highly reluctant to try again. So the actual quetions about work, school, age, etc, are just a facade to make it look like there is some reason for the rejection.