Farang

[ggarbas]

Just a question for anyone who knows? What is the differance of Falang and Farang? I often see it spelled both way's. Which is correct? Or are both correct?

Anyone Know?

Thank's

Gary

[Jai Dee]

What is the differance of Falang and Farang? I often see it spelled both way's. Which is correct? Or are both correct?

It doesn't really matter... Thais tend to mix up their "r"s and "l"s... probably more so as there are at least 18 dialects of Thai throughout the Kingdom as well...

I tend to use "falung" and that is how my Thai wife pronounces it.

[siamesekitty]

The Thai spelling is ฝรั่ง (farang), but it's commonly pronounced 'falung'. You probably won't hear a Thai saying 'farang' with a distinct 'r'.

Edited March 28, 2005 by siamesekitty

[aletta]

Here in deepest Isaan no one uses "r" in their words.The only time i hear the letter r is on the TV.

[Kerryd]

Just a question for anyone who knows? What is the differance of Falang and Farang? I often see it spelled both way's. Which is correct? Or are both correct?

                                         Anyone Know?

                                                           Thank's

                                                                         Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My understanding is that "farang" is the way it is supposed to be pronounced, and "Falung/Falang" is the way most people actually say it.

Much like the polite particle "khrap" being pronounced "kap", many Thais have a hard time with "r's" (try getting a Thai to say "cry").

I find it very odd, considering the number of words and names of places in Thailand that have "r's" in them (i.e. Sri Racha).

Part of the fun of being here.

(remember to close your tags if you are going to use them !!!)

Edited March 28, 2005 by Kerryd

[Jai Dee]

I find it very odd, considering the number of words and names of places in Thailand that have "r's" in them (i.e. Sri Racha).

I agree with your post Kerryd...

The only thing I'd add is that we are all here reading (in English) what a Thai word or phrase is supposed to sound like... and local Thais from "Sri Racha" usually call it "See Larcha"

[Ajarn]

You might want to ask such a question of a real Thai, teaching Thai, who is truly an expert in the language. You might be surprised at their response to the 'R' vs 'L' sound issue... Which is to say it's often not the way it seems to us non-native listeners...

[meemiathai]

I feel really strange. Do I have different ears than most here?

I seem to have noticed that most thais(99%) especially the ones from Isaan are very capable of rolling their tongues and pronoucing the 'r' sound like the french do.

What I understand is it is just a habit to pronounce it like an 'l'.

[Erwin1011]

I feel really strange.  Do I have different ears than most here?

I seem to have noticed that most thais(99%) especially the ones from Isaan are very capable of rolling their tongues and pronoucing the 'r' sound like the french do. 

What I understand is it is just a habit to pronounce it like an 'l'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's less tiring to pronounce an L versus an R

[Kerryd]

You might want to ask such a question of a real Thai, teaching Thai, who is truly an expert in the language. You might be surprised at their response to the 'R' vs 'L'  sound issue...  Which is to say it's often not the way it seems to us non-native listeners...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very true. Like many aspects of Thailand, us ex-pats tend to view them with the jaundiced eye of our mother tongue.

Imagine the reaction of most ex-pats (english speaking) if a Thai started criticing our language, things like pronouncing all the "silent" letters that appear in our vocabulary, and things like those language "rules" that we break (I before E, except after C, and in certain other words like: foreign, weight, feint, weird and so on).

English speakers are notoriously bad for criticizing the way other people speak our language. To criticize the way other people speak their own language would be the height of hypocrisy.

Not that anyone here has been critical of the Thais.

Imagine if the english language had 5 tones, to go along with all our other problems (there, their, they're).

[Ajarn]

You might want to ask such a question of a real Thai, teaching Thai, who is truly an expert in the language. You might be surprised at their response to the 'R' vs 'L'  sound issue...  Which is to say it's often not the way it seems to us non-native listeners...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very true. Like many aspects of Thailand, us ex-pats tend to view them with the jaundiced eye of our mother tongue.

Imagine the reaction of most ex-pats (english speaking) if a Thai started criticing our language, things like pronouncing all the "silent" letters that appear in our vocabulary, and things like those language "rules" that we break (I before E, except after C, and in certain other words like: foreign, weight, feint, weird and so on).

English speakers are notoriously bad for criticizing the way other people speak our language. To criticize the way other people speak their own language would be the height of hypocrisy.

Not that anyone here has been critical of the Thais.

Imagine if the english language had 5 tones, to go along with all our other problems (there, their, they're).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting anyone was being critical of Thais or their language. I was suggesting that maybe the sound problem is sometimes with your own ears, rather than the Thai mouth.

[autonomous_unit]

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting anyone was being critical of Thais or their language. I was suggesting that maybe the sound problem is sometimes with your own ears, rather than the Thai mouth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would you give any specifics? My wife (highly educated, but not in linguistics) was pretty emphatic that there is a proper way to say it and the majority of Thais do not do so for the same reasons that many in the UK or US do not speak what is considered "proper" in those countries, i.e. some combination of not knowing what is proper, not being able to break early habits, or wanting to express certain class markers. I've noticed her use different pronunciations of "l" and "r" depending on whether she is speaking to her friends and coworkers versus taxi drivers... whatever communicates clearly, I suppose.

I am nearly certain that what she meant by "proper" was the dialect of the central Thai government, etc. that is pushed out to the provinces through the government-run schools. I do not know much about the dialects of Thailand, so I do not know if this is synonymous with what the royals and aristocracy speak or if there are different dialects even in the upper crust? (I know there are grammatical markers for royalty and I do not mean those, but rather pronunciation and vocabulary.)

[redwood13]

I feel really strange.  Do I have different ears than most here?

I seem to have noticed that most thais(99%) especially the ones from Isaan are very capable of rolling their tongues and pronoucing the 'r' sound like the french do. 

What I understand is it is just a habit to pronounce it like an 'l'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's less tiring to pronounce an L versus an R

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Because they're lazy", was the response I heard from a Thai instructor at a language school in Bangkok.

-redwood

[gburns57au]

I feel really strange.  Do I have different ears than most here?

I seem to have noticed that most thais(99%) especially the ones from Isaan are very capable of rolling their tongues and pronoucing the 'r' sound like the french do. 

What I understand is it is just a habit to pronounce it like an 'l'.

The Khmen Isaan do indeed roll the "R" and pronounce it as an "R"

Falang and farang are both ok to use......

if you are hearing falung then you are not hearing the nuances of the language.

[Thomas_Merton]

Transliteration can never be precise. Imagine if you had to transliterate into the Thai letters the words “trough” and “bough”. What mess of confusion this could cause? The safest method is to transliterate how a word sounds.

Using this premise then IMHO falang is just as correct as farang.

However, I must warn you, from past experience with precisely this word, I have learned there are no shortages of pedants on this forum who wait with bated breath for the chance to castigate linguistic peccadilloes such as this.

[sriracha john]

I find it very odd, considering the number of words and names of places in Thailand that have "r's" in them (i.e. Sri Racha).

I agree with your post Kerryd...

The only thing I'd add is that we are all here reading (in English) what a Thai word or phrase is supposed to sound like... and local Thais from "Sri Racha" usually call it "See Larcha"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the truly local term is to shorten it to:

si' cha.

There's been a huge influx of outsiders here in the last five years and many "locals" are actually not really local, but have come here from Issan and brought with them their "Issan-isms" and style of speech.

[Jai Dee]

However, I must warn you, from past experience with precisely this word, I have learned there are no shortages of pedants on this forum who wait with bated breath for the chance to castigate linguistic peccadilloes such as this.

That has GOT to be Thai Visa's Quote of the Week!

&lt;deleted&gt; classic!!!

[Jack Jones]

I heard it was a class thing also, ie. those of a higher class deferentiate the raw rua, law ling; whereas those of a lower class pronounce both as law ling

[Jeff1]

Here in deepest Isaan no one uses "r" in their words.The only time i hear the letter r is on the TV.

So true .

And they pronounce it FALONG

[ProfessorFart]

The Ror Rua/ Lor Ling argument is as old as the hills and all debates on the topic have been inconclusive.

As stated Thais can and do roll their 'rs' especially in the Eastern provinces. In Chanthaburi they call it 'Chanthabooo rrrrrrrrrrreeeeeee'

Edited March 29, 2005 by ProfessorFart

[Richard W]

The Ror Rua/ Lor Ling argument is as old as the hills and all debates on the topic have been inconclusive.

As stated Thais can and do roll their 'rs' especially in the Eastern provinces. In Chanthaburi they call it 'Chanthabooo rrrrrrrrrrreeeeeee'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How Thai is Chantaburi? The linguistic only snippet I can remember off-hand about Chantaburi is that the province has a Khmer dialect with very conservative vowels - the original contrast between Series 1 and 2 (breathiness) is well preserved.

Isaan Khmer - Northern Khmer to be precise, notably preserves final /r/, which most Khmer dialects have dropped.

It has been pointed out that Thai /l/ is actually closer to correct Thai /r/ than most English varieties of /r/.

[withnail]

My old Thai tutor used to prefer it when I made a bit of an r sound and she said that it would sound funny for me not too because I'm a farang and everybody knows that farangs can make the r sound.

My new Thai tutor has tried to get me to say it more correctly and said that although it is similar to an r sound your tongue should be touching the roof of your mouth when you say it.

Now, I'm not saying that either of these arguments are watertight but the point is that it is neither an r or an l it's ร and I think the problem is that although most Thai letters have a very similar sound in the Roman alphabet it is important to remember that, they are similar not exact.

Take for example these 2 words, chicken "gai" and ladyboy "khatoey" both actually begin with the same letter ก.

I would recommend when transliterating to write farang as the r distinguishes the difference between ร roh reuh and ล loh ling.

[aletta]

I think the locals are just a little kee giat.

[ProfessorFart]

Chanthaburi has surprisingly little Khmer influence given its proximity to Cambodia.

Locals say that this is down to Chanthaburi being a strategic port for many centuries where the Cambodians were always viewed with suspicion.

The only area I know of which has any Khmer speakers (as in Surin for example) is The border area at Pong Nam Rorn.

Chanthaburi is a very conservative town and folks pride themselves on their clear diction and rolled 'Rs' I was constantly being pulled over by my teachers and ticked off for being slack in my speech if I ever used 'Lor Ling' instead of 'Ror Rua' or vice versa.

[meadish_sweetball]

ร 'Ror reua' pronounced in the Central Thai prestige dialect sounds like an Italian or Scottish "r", and not like a typical US or Southern English "r" and by NO means like a French or German "r" which is pronounced at the base of the tongue.

The Thai ร sound is supposed to "trill" off the edge of the ridge behind your teeth.

Even upper-class Thais can have problems with the lor ling/ror reua distinction, and once you know the correct spelling of Thai words you frequently catch newsreaders on the radio overcompensating and inserting ร in words that should take ล. This confusion is a very pervasive trait that occurs throughout more or less the entire dialect continuum.

In Thai pop music ร is often deliberately mispronounced as R in US English to make it sound 'cooler'. Which it doesn't. Some other traits of pop music pronunciation is vowel reduction - "chan" is pronounced "ch-n" for example.

[gburns57au]

Chanthaburi has surprisingly little Khmer influence given its proximity to Cambodia.

Locals say that this is down to Chanthaburi being a strategic port for many centuries where the Cambodians were always viewed with suspicion.

The only area I know of which has any Khmer speakers (as in Surin for example) is The border area at Pong Nam Rorn.

Chanthaburi is a very conservative town and folks pride themselves on their clear diction and rolled 'Rs' I was constantly being pulled over by my teachers and ticked off for being slack in my speech if I ever used 'Lor Ling' instead of 'Ror Rua' or vice versa.

The main areas where Khmer is still spoken as the first language are along the northernmost borders of Cambodia....Buriram, Surin, Sisaket etc....and as you alluded to, it is in the border areas that this most prominent. My ex was from a village very very close to the border (enough to hear the gunfights with the Khmer Rouge a few years ago) When she came here for a holiday the other Thais from places such as Sukothai, Bangkok, Ayuttaya etc... all complained about her rolling her R's when she spoke Thai to them.

Edited March 31, 2005 by gburns57au

[Richard W]

Chanthaburi has surprisingly little Khmer influence given its proximity to Cambodia.

Locals say that this is down to Chanthaburi being a strategic port for many centuries where the Cambodians were always viewed with suspicion.

The only area I know of which has any Khmer speakers (as in Surin for example) is The border area at Pong Nam Rorn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The main areas where Khmer is still spoken as the first language are along the northernmost borders of Cambodia....Buriram, Surin, Sisaket etc....and as you alluded to, it is in the border areas that this most prominent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've not seen any claims that Chanthaburi Khmer is a different language to standard Khmer, whereas the Northern Khmer you are talking about there is often regarded as a different language.

Pong Nam Ron has a few Chong speakers, and the study I was referring to, Acoustic correlates of breathy and clear vowels: the case

of Khmer, gives no hint of whereabouts in Chanthaburi the Khmer speakers came from, beyond the fact that they 'were exposed to Chong'. Chong is now concentrated in the Khao Khitchakut district of Chanthaburi.