British Envoy Puts Record Straight On Thai Image

[caf]

Christ a Friday Publicus, blaming the old Taksinator for Thai ethnocentrism went out of fashion back in 06 after the coup, when even the most senile of alcoholic expats were forced to stand up and notice PAD and the Dems did the exact same thing

At best you can try to claim that Taxin started it - good luck as it has always been in Thailand. Say how is that temple dispute going with Cambodia anyway ... ?

Don't know what you're on about.

As I noted, PAD and the Reds et al not only have carried forward Thai contempt of farang, they've elevated it to new heights and in their newfound orneryness have in fact turned on themselves. The masses of Thai people turning on themselves is the new development I reference, that of the Thais being self irritating, irritable and impossible, with 1997 being the point of departure.

Previously Thais were polite and kind to your face while contemptously ridiculing of farang and laughing behind our backs. Now Thais are not only openly contemptous of farang, but Thai nastyness has degenerated to the point of their being at one another's throats with the worst yet to come.

Are you on some sort of commission for bringing Thaksin into every thread? The ambassadors comments were over 40 years ago.

There is a serious postal strike in the Uk at the moment which is obviously affectring deliveries to Thailand. In what way can we blame Thaksin for that. Do give it your best shot.

[Publicus]

Christ a Friday Publicus, blaming the old Taksinator for Thai ethnocentrism went out of fashion back in 06 after the coup, when even the most senile of alcoholic expats were forced to stand up and notice PAD and the Dems did the exact same thing

At best you can try to claim that Taxin started it - good luck as it has always been in Thailand. Say how is that temple dispute going with Cambodia anyway ... ?

Don't know what you're on about.

As I noted, PAD and the Reds et al not only have carried forward Thai contempt of farang, they've elevated it to new heights and in their newfound orneryness have in fact turned on themselves. The masses of Thai people turning on themselves is the new development I reference, that of the Thais being self irritating, irritable and impossible, with 1997 being the point of departure.

Previously Thais were polite and kind to your face while contemptously ridiculing of farang and laughing behind our backs. Now Thais are not only openly contemptous of farang, but Thai nastyness has degenerated to the point of their being at one another's throats with the worst yet to come.

Are you on some sort of commission for bringing Thaksin into every thread? The ambassadors comments were over 40 years ago.

There is a serious postal strike in the Uk at the moment which is obviously affectring deliveries to Thailand. In what way can we blame Thaksin for that. Do give it your best shot.

Thanks for your suggestion. I'll get back to you if I need anything more.

[Camelot]

Just a casual thought. I wonder what Sir Anthony would have made of Thaksin, had they lived in the same era.

His comments about then Foreign Minister Thanat Khoman were absolutely spot on, although no one dared say it at the time.

[wilsongbrown]

By the time Thaksin and TRT had been in government a couple of years Thais were initiating aggressive approaches to the glorification of their culture, society, customs and traditions. Thais weren't polite conversationalists any longer; they certainly were not about to listen to anyone about anything.

Instead, Thais had become forwardly ethnocentric and nationalistic. Thais had become initators of aggressive comments and remarks, throwing around Thai-centric statements out of the blue, as when no one was saying anything at all.

Many Thais have ceased to be balloons but instead have become prickly aggressive hammers towards farang minding our own business. We've seen this abrasive attitude in the red, yellow, blue etc color conflict Thais have initiated and aggravated among themselves.

Since the 1997 self induced meltdown of the Thai economy and system of finance, Thais increasingly have become irritated, irritable and impossible among themselves.

I noticed that? So are we to assume the pro Thaksin camp is in error in their belief that Thaksin was a 'moderniser' and 'had attempted to drag Thailand into the 'real' world'?

[wilsongbrown]

Christ a Friday Publicus, blaming the old Taksinator for Thai ethnocentrism went out of fashion back in 06 after the coup, when even the most senile of alcoholic expats were forced to stand up and notice PAD and the Dems did the exact same thing

At best you can try to claim that Taxin started it - good luck as it has always been in Thailand. Say how is that temple dispute going with Cambodia anyway ... ?

Don't know what you're on about.

As I noted, PAD and the Reds et al not only have carried forward Thai contempt of farang, they've elevated it to new heights and in their newfound orneryness have in fact turned on themselves. The masses of Thai people turning on themselves is the new development I reference, that of the Thais being self irritating, irritable and impossible, with 1997 being the point of departure.

Previously Thais were polite and kind to your face while contemptously ridiculing of farang and laughing behind our backs. Now Thais are not only openly contemptous of farang, but Thai nastyness has degenerated to the point of their being at one another's throats with the worst yet to come.

I've noticed that too! However, the latter (I admit, perversely), makes me feel a little more 'at home' and less like being 'pandered to'. Sometimes here, a little 'honesty' is refreshing.

[popshirt]

Is this the Rumbold who is/was the manager of Grace Brothers?

Edited October 24, 2009 by popshirt

[animatic]

The use of divisive and exclusionary politics typically DOES inflame nationalistic impulses

in a jingoist way and often brings the worst out of the populace. To place an exact date,

or exact perpetrator of such a egregious trend in Thailand, is multi-pronged and problematic.

But there are certainly several glaringly apropos, recent, 'best candidates'

as this global mind-set's progenitors, and exacerbators.

Was he Rumbold Of The Bailey?

Talley Ho chaps, have at it.

Edited October 24, 2009 by animatic

[caf]

The use of divisive and exclusionary politics typically DOES inflame nationalistic impulses

in a jingoist way and often brings the worst out of the populace. To place an exact date,

or exact perpetrator of such a egregious trend in Thailand, is multi-pronged and problematic.

But there are certainly several glaringly apropos, recent, 'best candidates'

as this global mind-set's progenitors, and exacerbators.

Was he Rumbold Of The Bailey?

Talley Ho chaps, have at it.

As Macmillan said after Krushchev's comments at an international meeting: "Can I have a translation please?"

[webfact]

.... of the Bailey

I loved that television series.

Jeezzzzz, I am getting old

[Publicus]

The use of divisive and exclusionary politics typically DOES inflame nationalistic impulses

in a jingoist way and often brings the worst out of the populace. To place an exact date,

or exact perpetrator of such a egregious trend in Thailand, is multi-pronged and problematic.

But there are certainly several glaringly apropos, recent, 'best candidates'

as this global mind-set's progenitors, and exacerbators.

Was he Rumbold Of The Bailey?

Talley Ho chaps, have at it.

As Macmillan said after Krushchev's comments at an international meeting: "Can I have a translation please?"

As Wilson said to LBJ during a discussion, "What's a varmint?"

Webfact, maybe you're getting old but you still have spring to your step. GHOSTBUSTERS!

[sprq]

Sir Anthony Rumbold's missive is an absolute gem. It would be nice if everybody commenting here actually read it before posting their opinions. Anybody who does read it and knows Thailand well should thoroughly enjoy what is an excellent and perspicacious analysis of the country. How does one know it's so good? Because the vast majority of it still applies today.

HE QQ is merely doing his job: making sure that relations are as smooth as possible between Britain and Thailand so that British business interests may thrive here. Rumbold might well have done the same thing in similar circumstances. What diplomats say amongst themselves is always different from what they say for public consumption.

One other point: Rumbold's English (and that of his aides, quite possibly, who may have given his original the once over) is excellent in all respects. I doubt if there are many diplomats these days who can write so well, all the way down to faultless punctuation.

[zzdocxx]

' And if anyone wants to know what their culture consists of the answer is that it consists of themselves, their excellent manners, their fastidious habits, their graceful gestures and elegant persons. If we are elephants and oxen, they are gazelles and butterflies.'

[LomSak27]

Webfact - Super Moderator posted

Politicians, former politicians, convicted politicians and public figures we dislike have proper names. Please use them.

As posting regs change with numbing frequency on TV, perchance a group e mail could be sent to members to help them keep in compliance with new updated standards.

[featography]

How sad that he feels he should apoligise for this non story.

Your bloomin absolutly correct ! The Brittish should never apologize to anyone for anything after all we are the BRITTISH !!! God save the Queen !!!

Not to stir any pots, or throw poo in the fan, but I have been curious for some time now.

Thailand says, "Long Live the King"

Brits say "God Save the Queen"

Curiousity compels me to ask, "God Save the Queen" from what?

[Huey]

It's good too see that some people can evolve past the cultural elitism and bigotry of their predecessors.

Thank you Mr. Quayle. Unlike so many others who think what rumbold said was appropriate, you have shown more class and decorum than those who came before you.

[backsoon]

I think this "apology" goes beyond diplomacy and public relations and smacks of political correctness. I wonder if Ambassador Quayle has read all 10 pages of Sir Anthony's valedictory letter. He got a lot right. It is unfortunate that the remarks creating a stir were taken out of context.

Where can I read the full Sir Anthony's letter?

But no matter what it says, the things I have read by now are veeery true.

These things may be offending and/or inflammatory, but true, nevertheless.

In any case, being a private OPINION, it can't be wrong.

Publishing such an opinion IS politically incorrect. The apology should be coming from the <snip> who made it public. No more, no less.

But all links to source of the full text have been edited here. Is Thaivisa=The Nation?

[wilsongbrown]

I think this "apology" goes beyond diplomacy and public relations and smacks of political correctness. I wonder if Ambassador Quayle has read all 10 pages of Sir Anthony's valedictory letter. He got a lot right. It is unfortunate that the remarks creating a stir were taken out of context.

Where can I read the full Sir Anthony's letter?

But no matter what it says, the things I have read by now are veeery true.

These things may be offending and/or inflammatory, but true, nevertheless.

In any case, being a private OPINION, it can't be wrong.

Publishing such an opinion IS politically incorrect. The apology should be coming from the &lt;deleted&gt; who made it public. No more, no less.

But all links to source of the full text have been edited here. Is Thaivisa=The Nation?

On the one hand you state the content of the letter to be 'veeeeeeeeeery true' (I wasn't aware the letter'd been removed, I downloaded it a couple of days ago), and then go on to say 'the apology should be coming from the aholes (sic) who made it public?! Well, there's no need for 'an apology' (why?) from anyone you consider to have spoken the truth, is there?

I hope your nik implies you're not already here and perhaps you should not add to the other knuckledraggers and stay exactly where you are.

[PawyiLee]

Don't know why Admin removed link to PDF, but Google wil find it for you if you enter "Sir Anthony Rumbold".

[seri thai]

"There is a small handful of foreigners who have lived here a long time, and whose opinions about the Thais are worth listening to...

But most of these confess to there benig great areas of the Thai mentality, which they have long ago given up attempting to penetrate."

On my first visit to Thailand a group of American missionaries were at the hotel and I asked them how much success they were having. The repsonse was that it was near impossible to 'convert' Thais. I asked it was because they were stauch Bhuddists. The Reply was that it was more the thought processes.

The missionary guy explained it to me in a way that has stuck with me, and proven to be true.

He said, "Thais are like baloons. They are polite, listen and understand, just like pushing your finger in a baloon but as soon you take your finger out, it goes back to where it was."

NOW, I'm not saying there are no devout Thai Christians or Bhuddists, just relating some conversations. However, in my opinion, money is the sacrament in Thailand. [not that there is anything wrong with it]

Curiousity eventually got the better of my thai step daughter who attends one of the (pissing into the wind) Roman Catholic schools and she decided to attend a mass. I asked her what she thought of the experience and she replied she wouldn't be going back to the fahrang temple as the food and drink they gave her were "mai aloy"

Better get in touch with the Vatican and let them know all the little souls they are missing due to a lack of prawn crackers and red fanta!

[seri thai]

Sir Anthony Rumbold's missive is an absolute gem. It would be nice if everybody commenting here actually read it before posting their opinions. Anybody who does read it and knows Thailand well should thoroughly enjoy what is an excellent and perspicacious analysis of the country. How does one know it's so good? Because the vast majority of it still applies today.

HE QQ is merely doing his job: making sure that relations are as smooth as possible between Britain and Thailand so that British business interests may thrive here. Rumbold might well have done the same thing in similar circumstances. What diplomats say amongst themselves is always different from what they say for public consumption.

One other point: Rumbold's English (and that of his aides, quite possibly, who may have given his original the once over) is excellent in all respects. I doubt if there are many diplomats these days who can write so well, all the way down to faultless punctuation.

Don't know about the punctuation. I see him dictating it over 2 cigars and a large brandy, or two brandy's and a large cigar.. a la Rowley Birkin Q.C.

Methinks it'll be a while before we see Quentin's copy....

[mommysboy]

UNDIPLOMATIC NOTE

British envoy puts record straight on Thai image

By The Nation

Britain's ambassador to Thailand, Quinton Quayle, has offered a contrasting view on Thai society following bold criticism by a predecessor a long time ago who criticised the Kingdom as lacking in culture.

Sir Anthony Rumbold, British ambassador to Thailand from 1965 and 1967, said of Thai society: "They have no literature, no painting and only a very odd kind of music; their sculpture, ceramics and dancing are borrowed from others, and their architecture is monotonous and interior decoration hideous.

"Nobody can deny that gambling and golf are the chief pleasures of the rich, and that licentiousness is the main pleasure of them all," Rumbold said.

Rumbold's statement was in a personal letter to Britain's Foreign Office over four decades ago. It was kept in the UK's National Archives until disclosed recently to the BBC under Freedom of Information.

Until 2006, British ambassadors retiring or moving countries traditionally sent a valedictory dispatch to London, offering candid personal assessments of the country in which they had served.

In his statement issued Monday, Quayle - ambassador since 2007- said his views towards Thailand were very different from his predecessor of 42 years ago.

"Ever since I was first posted to Thailand 30 years ago [as Second Secretary,Political], I have been impressed by the richness of Thai culture, be it art, sculpture, dance, music or literature."

All this is embellished by the natural beauty of the landscape and the charm and warmth of the Thai people. The country for me certainly lives up to its brand name "Amazing Thailand," he said.

-- The Nation 2009/10/20

Sounds like fair comment to me in the main.

Maybe it's about different perspectives on life: Thailand's buildings are just bad when compared to the west, but the cuisine is superb, like I say different priorities. The architecture is truly crap though.

[backsoon]

I think this "apology" goes beyond diplomacy and public relations and smacks of political correctness. I wonder if Ambassador Quayle has read all 10 pages of Sir Anthony's valedictory letter. He got a lot right. It is unfortunate that the remarks creating a stir were taken out of context.

Where can I read the full Sir Anthony's letter?

But no matter what it says, the things I have read by now are veeery true.

These things may be offending and/or inflammatory, but true, nevertheless.

In any case, being a private OPINION, it can't be wrong.

Publishing such an opinion IS politically incorrect. The apology should be coming from the &lt;deleted&gt; who made it public. No more, no less.

But all links to source of the full text have been edited here. Is Thaivisa=The Nation?

On the one hand you state the content of the letter to be 'veeeeeeeeeery true' (I wasn't aware the letter'd been removed, I downloaded it a couple of days ago), and then go on to say 'the apology should be coming from the aholes (sic) who made it public?! Well, there's no need for 'an apology' (why?) from anyone you consider to have spoken the truth, is there?

I hope your nik implies you're not already here and perhaps you should not add to the other knuckledraggers and stay exactly where you are.

Dear wilsongobrown, no need for animosity in your posts. We are all entitled to our own opinions here and everywhere. Sir Anthony's was private, confidential, and potentially damaging opinion. It was candid and in my opinion true. Therefore it should have been let stay this way.

I am here and not going away. The matter of 'truth' you are referring to is complicated. There are many of 'truths' and no absolute one. Also diplomacy often dresses them up, to remove complications.

But I see you are a non-complicated man prone to throwing stones and missing.

By the way, my nickname is not an indication of intent/action, but was taken from English classic tale.

Please, do not reply.

[caf]

If you read Rumbold's full account - as a poster said you can google it - you will understand what he actually said. Many posters on here have obviously posted their own views without having read his report.

As always, why let facts get in the way of an opinionated post.

It is sometimes difficult to get really accurate news in Thailand. But in this case there was no excuse; his words are readily available in the original rubberstamped by the fco

[anon789]

' And if anyone wants to know what their culture consists of the answer is that it consists of themselves, their excellent manners, their fastidious habits, their graceful gestures and elegant persons. If we are elephants and oxen, they are gazelles and butterflies.'

Funny! I read this quote in a totally different way than you. Quinton Quayle describes ALL that Thai culture consists of in this quote: a bunch of elegant, air-headed butterflies with very good manners and graceful gestures, but that is the extent of it: there is nothing else positive worth mentioning.  

Edited October 26, 2009 by anon789

[cmsally]

' And if anyone wants to know what their culture consists of the answer is that it consists of themselves, their excellent manners, their fastidious habits, their graceful gestures and elegant persons. If we are elephants and oxen, they are gazelles and butterflies.'

Funny! I read this quote in a totally different way than you. Quinton Quayle describes ALL that Thai culture consists of in this quote: a bunch of elegant, air-headed butterflies with very good manners and graceful gestures, but that is the extent of it: there is nothing else positive worth mentioning.  

I took it to have this meaning too. Clever old Rumbold, maybe we shall never really know how he meant it; careful use of language. Maybe he had a premonition of what an apologist society we would become.

[MrWiggle]

Things have not changed much in 40 years then so it seems.

[Thai at Heart]

' And if anyone wants to know what their culture consists of the answer is that it consists of themselves, their excellent manners, their fastidious habits, their graceful gestures and elegant persons. If we are elephants and oxen, they are gazelles and butterflies.'

Funny! I read this quote in a totally different way than you. Quinton Quayle describes ALL that Thai culture consists of in this quote: a bunch of elegant, air-headed butterflies with very good manners and graceful gestures, but that is the extent of it: there is nothing else positive worth mentioning.  

I took it to have this meaning too. Clever old Rumbold, maybe we shall never really know how he meant it; careful use of language. Maybe he had a premonition of what an apologist society we would become.

Having read the entire piece, it is fairly balanced in my view. Is it possible to live anywhere and write a piece about any country and find no faults at all about the country or it's people? I would love to see him write today about the state of Britain. It was his job after all to report about the country warts and all.

Read any newspaper in the world and there is something bad to say about the place, even the China Daily reports problems and faults in China.

[ianh68]

About the Quayle response, he would say that, wouldn't he?

[mommysboy]

In fact having thought about it, what is quoted in post 1 seems to hit a quite a few nails squarely on the head.

If somebody went to the UK and said the food was poor, the weather miserable, etc, we wouldn't get such rancour.

Ah, sia na chai mai Khap, nagliat!