Why Was Thailand Never Colonised ?

[Rumfoord]

i suppose the easy answer is ' nobody wanted it'

that is an imbecile answer.

[yabaaaa]

In the UK we have Roman, Viking, French, Norma + + + influences in our buildings (look at our great Noman buidings), language (Roman numerals) and religion (French and Spanish influences), all on a Celtic (German) background... Thailand is exactly the same.

i like the broader view you are suggesting. putting the things in a much wider historical context.

but try doing long division with Roman numerals and than say thanks to the Hindu–Arabic numeral system and a Persian mathematician.

I agree 100%, which is the point I always make to Thais: why deny the strengths in your make-up??? Harking back to a 'culture' which never actually existed while rubbishing the elements that make up your identity is insanity...

The UK became strong because we took in, often were forced to, different words, numbers, phrases, ideas, concepts and everything else. The sooner Thais accept their great heritage as a mix from many different cultures and people, the better they will become and the more they will achieve in the future.

roman numerals: I V X L C D M

'arab' numerals: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 and one of the greatest idea evar, the "0"

nation states and claims of long and strong historical backgrounds, consistency and dating back the origin of 'the nation' ancient as possible and so on - Nationalism itself - that is an invention, ideology in the 18/19 century europe. it's a myth, developed by historian of that time, that became also a political concept.

you are right, if we look more thorough at the past we will find a true polycultural mixture, cultural exchange even in pre modern times, in the mediaeval times, in the ancient world. like you said, evidence we can find in architecture, rite, religion and languages. origin of words.

nationalism can be a plague. nationalistic mindset and stupidity you will found displayed by many people and it start with little things. just like the one who complained that at his return to america the first language he heard was spanish. or the ones that are afraid of a muslim takeover in the UK. the Christianisation wasn't that long time ago, the Windsors are actually of 'german' origin and so on.

if you say that you always make a point to Thais, its kinda a little bit stepping into the trap of nationalistic insanity. the accusation that Thais are übernationalistic is in some extent a projection, an eurocentric viewpoint. partly a supriority opinion and look down on thais with 'how they can dare' in mind and partly a wrong assumption that forms of nationalism in east and west are exactly the same.

never been colonised is still a different thing then not being free of any 'foreign' influence.

relatively speaking it is all a question of perspective.

if an extraterrestrial intelligence would analyse the sytem earth, they could came to the conclusion that in terms of expansion, spread and conquer new living space, sucessful evolutionary strategies and so on - the most prosperous species are nightshade plants like tomato, potato and tobacco plants and Capsicum with its fruit chili pepper. humans their dispersal vector.

i just want to point out another indicator of 'foreign' influence to what many seen as a typical feature of a region or nation - the local cuisine. before 1492 no potatos for europeans and no chili in SEA. but again a different thing and no answer to the question of colonised or not.

Nah they would say insects rule the world!!

[phetaroi]

I have heard/read some Thais claiming even Angkor belonged to Thailand/Siam.

But shouldnt it be the other way around - most of the land, what is now central Thailand, was under Khmer rule, which we associate nowadays with present day Camboge?

I don't mean this is a negative way...and I really mean that...but, so what? There are no nations I can think of that were always what they are now...boundary-wise or cultural-wise.

From the reading I've done...and when it's only in English I know that limits it...to me there is a definite link between the cultures of Sukhothai, Ayutthaya, and ultimately the Bangkok-based nation of the Charkri dynasty. I note that other cultures that make up the current Thai nation are treated differently (including Lanna)...related, but not in a direct cultural progression.

[mca]

If you'd said Ipswich Town and football

Scum!

[mca]

What actually happened was the colonialists queued up at immigration at the border just as the immi officers were going to lunch. They waited until the officers decided to come back from their 1 (meaning 2) hour lunch break and took a queue number. When their number was eventually called they found out that the photographs they'd supplied were the wrong size and the items they'd pillaged from other countries hadn't been in the bank for the required 3 months so their application was rejected therefore they gave up and went home.

[caf]

What actually happened was the colonialists queued up at immigration at the border just as the immi officers were going to lunch. They waited until the officers decided to come back from their 1 (meaning 2) hour lunch break and took a queue number. When their number was eventually called they found out that the photographs they'd supplied were the wrong size and the items they'd pillaged from other countries hadn't been in the bank for the required 3 months so their application was rejected therefore they gave up and went home.

I can't make up my mind whether Rumboold is right (post 58 quoted below) or whether you are.

................

roman numerals: I V X L C D M

'arab' numerals: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 and one of the greatest idea evar, the "0"

nation states and claims of long and strong historical backgrounds, consistency and dating back the origin of 'the nation' ancient as possible and so on - Nationalism itself - that is an invention, ideology in the 18/19 century europe. it's a myth, developed by historian of that time, that became also a political concept.

you are right, if we look more thorough at the past we will find a true polycultural mixture, cultural exchange even in pre modern times, in the mediaeval times, in the ancient world. like you said, evidence we can find in architecture, rite, religion and languages. origin of words.

nationalism can be a plague. nationalistic mindset and stupidity you will found displayed by many people and it start with little things. just like the one who complained that at his return to america the first language he heard was spanish. or the ones that are afraid of a muslim takeover in the UK. the Christianisation wasn't that long time ago, the Windsors are actually of 'german' origin and so on.

if you say that you always make a point to Thais, its kinda a little bit stepping into the trap of nationalistic insanity. the accusation that Thais are übernationalistic is in some extent a projection, an eurocentric viewpoint. partly a supriority opinion and look down on thais with 'how they can dare' in mind and partly a wrong assumption that forms of nationalism in east and west are exactly the same.

never been colonised is still a different thing then not being free of any 'foreign' influence.

relatively speaking it is all a question of perspective.

if an extraterrestrial intelligence would analyse the sytem earth, they could came to the conclusion that in terms of expansion, spread and conquer new living space, sucessful evolutionary strategies and so on - the most prosperous species are nightshade plants like tomato, potato and tobacco plants and Capsicum with its fruit chili pepper. humans their dispersal vector.

i just want to point out another indicator of 'foreign' influence to what many seen as a typical feature of a region or nation - the local cuisine. before 1492 no potatos for europeans and no chili in SEA. but again a different thing and no answer to the question of colonised or not.

.......................end of quote.

Rumboold has used more words than you have, so perhaps has put a lot more time into his masterly thesis - you will note he did not finish it until the early hours of the morning. He has referred to mathematical symbols to progress his argument and to 19th century European history. You have failed to use such information sources in making your proposition, haven't you? So on those grounds I think I must side with Rumpole.

He has used both a Muslim takeover of England and the German ancestry of the British crown as very powerful examples to support his case. He did not get round to mentioning the Welsh and Scottish ancestors of the Crown but given the hour of his writing perhaps that can be forgiven. You, on the other hand, did not mention it at all. Sorry, I must again side with my learned friend Rumpole of the Bailey

Counsel for the prosecution also raised the important question of potatoes and tomatoes. Did you not see the relevance of bringing that evidence in?

And tobacco, yes tobacco. You did not mention that once.

So we on Thaivisa must way up as fairly as we can the evidence that you both present.

There are many things that I think you will accept that you missed.

It is for the jury to decide of course. But they may take the view that personal observation ( the evidence of your own eyes at Immigration) outweighs more academic argument. It is a close call. Do we believe our own eyes or do we dig more deeply in the allotment and examine more thoroughly our little potatoes and tomatoes.

The jury is out but I think you will win.

[cyb]

And the UK will be Muslim before long.

Sorry as but I won a bet with an American once,as we landed in England...

I said the first 5 people he meets in England will not be speaking English

Must have landed in Bradford

[Padrino]

And the UK will be Muslim before long.

It already is.

Blimey, Nick Griffin posts on Thai Visa...who would of thought !

[Ricardo]

Why was Siam never colonised ? Sheer Bad Luck !

[Heng]

Heng said: "Well, unless you're actually planning on moving in with us, next door is a couple hundred meters in each direction. I don't think even your 'top of the line' AJ system from Carrefour will carry that far. I actually like traditional Thai music, I always make a point of playing it in our lobby, keeps up the illusion that we're assimilated 'locals,' and not puppet masters pulling all the strings while quietly humming the Imperial March like the Chinese sith lords that we are.

I'll have you know my inlaws have a BigC storecard... seeing is believing those BigC soundsystems (or should that be hearing is believing?). As we speak, my realtor (used a horrible American word just for you...) is searching out a house next to yours; I told him to find the Chinese looking bloke with a tuk tuk in his driveway covered in American college stickers... Best to double glaze your lobby soon as possible!

BTW, Yale and football don't go together. If you'd said Ipswich Town and football then I'd of understood you - especially with regard to forgotten glory.

Love the two toned quote format. Your realtor? You mean the pushpin notices board at Foodland? BTW, who's Ipswich Town, an up and coming prospect from the projects?

This is one of those threads that surely folks have flashbacks to when they are sitting around waiting for their number to be called so that they can show some half asleep BIB immigration officer that they have the same passport and yes, live in the same place as they did 90 days ago. 'Now serving # 543..., now serving # 543... *allow 1 minute to lapse just to make sure* now serving number 544....'

[tilac2]

Thailand is often said not to have been colonised, which is true, but that does not mean it was not involved in colonialism. How? By being a coloniser itself. Lanna and Isaan were brought into the Thai motherland in the late 19th century; similarly the southern, mainly Muslim, provinces were "aquired" (explaining the violence down there in recent years). This process was not entirely smooth, and there were regional revolts against the central Thai colonial authority in 1902. See David Wyatt's books and other sources.

People in the West often suppose that colonialism was just a product of the western (mainly European) powers, but not so. Many countries in many ages have practiced colonialism (for good or ill -- discuss).

[Heng]

Yeah, I can imagine how tedious the administrative hassle must have been.

'The sun never sets on the Thai empire!'

'Um, Pattani is in the same time zone.'

'Doh!'

[harrry]

Yeah, I can imagine how tedious the administrative hassle must have been.

'The sun never sets on the Thai empire!'

'Um, Pattani is in the same time zone.'

'Doh!'

THe truth may have been he said: The sun never rises on the Thai Empire. After all many seem to consider Thailand is in the Dark Ages.

[wintermute]

I suppose one 'out there' theory is the women and culture. The high and mighty types visiting were probably pacified and kept happy by it. Could be they didn't want it turning into 'another colony' like the others. Also don't forget the British Empire was always busy keeping what it had going...

Pure nonsense. Miscegenation was looked down upon back in the 18-19th century in the British and French Empires. The only people who engaged in it were Spaniards in the new world which is why South America is the way it is today racially. Administrators cavorting with locals were more than likely fired from their position.

[Heng]

Yeah, I can imagine how tedious the administrative hassle must have been.

'The sun never sets on the Thai empire!'

'Um, Pattani is in the same time zone.'

'Doh!'

THe truth may have been he said: The sun never rises on the Thai Empire. After all many seem to consider Thailand is in the Dark Ages.

I'm sure it it certainly seems so for those who are stuck here with the only hope of getting out is reaching for any of a number of excrement laden branches/vines/etc.

[harrry]

I'm sure it it certainly seems so for those who are stuck here with the only hope of getting out is reaching for any of a number of excrement laden branches/vines/etc.

So you have seen those mangrove swamps in the south too.

[Heng]

Nah, I rarely venture out into the sticks.

[khaowong1]

Heng said: "Well, unless you're actually planning on moving in with us, next door is a couple hundred meters in each direction. I don't think even your 'top of the line' AJ system from Carrefour will carry that far. I actually like traditional Thai music, I always make a point of playing it in our lobby, keeps up the illusion that we're assimilated 'locals,' and not puppet masters pulling all the strings while quietly humming the Imperial March like the Chinese sith lords that we are.

It's all academic really, so the place wasn't colonized. It's was a different world then. It's like reminiscing about national championships in football if you go to Yale. It's unlikely that those times will ever come about again."

I'll have you know my inlaws have a BigC storecard... seeing is believing those BigC soundsystems (or should that be hearing is believing?). As we speak, my realtor (used a horrible American word just for you...) is searching out a house next to yours; I told him to find the Chinese looking bloke with a tuk tuk in his driveway covered in American college stickers... Best to double glaze your lobby soon as possible!

BTW, Yale and football don't go together. If you'd said Ipswich Town and football then I'd of understood you - especially with regard to forgotten glory.

I understand you Heng... I went to OU... boomer sooners - boomer sooners ...

[Heng]

Yeah, rough game last week, eh?

[TheGoodDoctor]

I suppose one 'out there' theory is the women and culture. The high and mighty types visiting were probably pacified and kept happy by it. Could be they didn't want it turning into 'another colony' like the others. Also don't forget the British Empire was always busy keeping what it had going...

Pure nonsense. Miscegenation was looked down upon back in the 18-19th century in the British and French Empires. The only people who engaged in it were Spaniards in the new world which is why South America is the way it is today racially. Administrators cavorting with locals were more than likely fired from their position.

Cavorting, as in, sitting at the same lunch table, not as in, leaning them over a chair and screwing them, right?

Edited October 25, 2009 by TheGoodDoctor

[hamishgillan]

Until 1813 Satun was a district of the Malay state of Kedah, then known as Mukim Setul (Jawi: مقيم ستول)in Malay. After that date it was administered by a governor sent from Nakhon Si Thammarat. In 1897 Satun became part of Monthon Saiburi (now Kedah), which in 1909 was divided between British Empire and Siam as part of Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909. While most of Kedah was ceded to Britain, Satun was awarded to Siam because it had a relatively large Thai population. Satun was then incorporated into Monthon Phuket. The monthon system was ended in 1933, and Satun province became a first-level subdivision of Thailand.

taken from wikipedia-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satun_Province

[Nostraforce]

First of all due to it's position Thailand was not 1st choice for European colonisers which in the 17th and 18th centuries focused on controlling the seas, apart from that there was a strong royal house right at the coast and the freedom of religion also helped avoid conflict.

In the 17th century siam played off the Dutch against the English and the French

In the 18th century european colonialism was focused on other areas and siam closed itself to foreign powers

In the mid 19th century after european colonialism fired up again thailand was not a first choice to colonize due to it's permissive trade policies part of the rama's 'bend before the wind' policy

[Thongkorn]

The UK became strong because we took in, often were forced to, different words, numbers, phrases, ideas, concepts and everything else. The sooner Thais accept their great heritage as a mix from many different cultures and people, the better they will become and the more they will achieve in the future.

Britain Took a leaf out of the Romans books You do not destroy local Religion or beliefs , you incorporate them in your own .

[phetaroi]

The UK became strong because we took in, often were forced to, different words, numbers, phrases, ideas, concepts and everything else. The sooner Thais accept their great heritage as a mix from many different cultures and people, the better they will become and the more they will achieve in the future.

While I agree that the Thai heritage mix is an asset they haven't realized, I disagree with your first sentence. The UK didn't "take in" much...they simply "took". "The sun never sets on the British empire" wasn't about adapting cultural influences internally.

[caf]

According to Japanese history, they colonised Thailand (not invaded or occupied) in WW2

[TheGoodDoctor]

According to Japanese history, they colonised Thailand (not invaded or occupied) in WW2

it was clearly an occupation.

[mrtoad]

And the UK will be Muslim before long.

It already is.

Blimey, Nick Griffin posts on Thai Visa...who would of thought !

Does he?

So what was said in jest is comparable to the beliefs of Nick Griffin? Give me a break, and put your brain in gear before posting an accusation like that.

[mrtoad]

And the UK will be Muslim before long.

It already is.

Blimey, Nick Griffin posts on Thai Visa...who would of thought !

Double post.

Edited October 26, 2009 by mrtoad

[Rumfoord]

And the UK will be Muslim before long.

It already is.

Blimey, Nick Griffin posts on Thai Visa...who would of thought !

Does he?

So what was said in jest is comparable to the beliefs of Nick Griffin? Give me a break, and put your brain in gear before posting an accusation like that.

racism and xenophobia starts will small thoughtless comments.

[mrtoad]

racism and xenophobia starts will small thoughtless comments.

Sentences start with capital letters.

The problem with a lot of people is that they like to throw the race card at pretty much everything.

Now let's get back onto topic shall we? It's actually been an interesting thread so far.