Fines For Traffic Offences 'too Weak'

[dumball]

'brahmburgers' date='2009-11-15 08:44:30' post='3141139']

Here we go again. ...the 874 reasons why Thais are awful drivers.

Let the fireworks begin.

talk talk talk of tickets. I don't know about elsewhere in Thailand, but here in northernmost Thailand, there are essentially no tickets given. You don't even have to be VIP to avoid being ticketed. You can drive as fast as you want, cut corners, run red lights, you name it, no one gets moving violation tickets here. It's totally nuts.

Here is probably the base starter point of poor driving skills , these uneducated (as drivers) young people gravitate to the city and continue motivating(Not driving)their motos around the city in the same haphazard way.Take away their capability of continueing in this manner , their vehicle , Thai hate to even walk to the corner store and take the whole family when they go , a few days of 'Legging' it will make a much larger impression than any fine , afford it or not .

[richieudon]

I always thought to myself "why don't people indicate when turning a corner?"

It really made me mad. Waiting for someone to pass and they'd just look at me and turn.

If they'd indicated I could have pulled out. I thought it was laziness.

It's not laziness. It's education.

When you go for your driving license you have to drive around a couple of cones and do a 3 point turn. That's it, done!

If it was perhaps a little more difficult to obtain a license and a more rigorous test applied, maybe things would change?

Now I don't get mad, I just go with the flow.

BUT I do indicate when turning left or right ;-)

[Bearnagh]

I always thought to myself "why don't people indicate when turning a corner?"

It really made me mad. Waiting for someone to pass and they'd just look at me and turn......

HA! That's one of my pet hates too! The other one I cannot stand is the lane discipline (or total lack thereof) and how they love to overtake you on your left hand side and then crush in, in front of you, forcing you to give way. All this to gain just one place in the trafiic.

What about a list of all your pet hates on the roads folks? That might be fun...

[glennsup]

I have been in Thailand many years and chalong in phuket has some of the worst driving i have ever seen, whats the point in puting white lines in he middle of the road, they dont seem to need them here,

[KhunYindee]

Can't deny there is a problem with road safty in Thailand. calling for higer punishemtn is not going to work. If they want to decrease the number of casualties nothing will work better than strictly enforcing the rules. The best deterrent against crimes is and will always be a high risk of getting caught.

As a former Policeman in the USA, I totally agree with you. It does not matter how heavy the fines or severe the punishment; if the laws are not enforced then there may as well be no laws.

[BSJ]

Why does the saying "The more things change the more things stay the same" pop into my head???

[sinbin]

If it was perhaps a little more difficult to obtain a license and a more rigorous test applied, maybe things would change?

Even if you made it nigh on impossible to obtain a driving licence you still wouldn't change things. Even people without an education can get a license. Pay the going 'sweetner' and off you go to kill or maime someone. Do you think that the people in power give a rats arse about the lower life in Thailand ?

PS. Sorry 'richieudon', that's not directly aimed at you.

Edited November 15, 2009 by sinbin

[prakhonchai nick]

The laws are there -they just need to be enforced.

Start at the schools -half of the motorcycles parked there are driven in by underage kids, permitted to drive by their parents, allowed to park by the teachers, and assisted entry by the morning traffic police. PUT A STOP TO IT

Realistic fines for other offences such as driving against traffic flow, no helmet or more than 1 passenger. Never mind the inability to pay by the poor. If you don't break the law you don't pay. If you do, pay or the bike is confiscated until you do!

[mca]

They also thought that those caught for speeding should have their driver's licence confiscated

Yeah that'll stop them driving and riding.

I think in a country where I quite often see police officers riding with no safety helmets through the centre of town it's a case of take the rule book and thrown it in the bin.

What do you mean by survey. Just go out and open eyes and see this. I guess people believe thing only when someone else tell them in the news or tv

Err... Pardon?

[PeaceBlondie]

Start at the schools -half of the motorcycles parked there are driven in by underage kids, permitted to drive by their parents, allowed to park by the teachers, and assisted entry by the morning traffic police. PUT A STOP TO IT

True - one of my 12-year old students rode her motosai to school daily.

[IvanDobsky]

Here we go again. ...the 874 reasons why Thais are awful drivers.

Let the fireworks begin.

I think they're actually quite good drivers. Anyone who can drive a motorbike one handed while carrying a fully open umbrella and two children balancing on the back is a better driver then me!

Seriously though, it is a problem that according to the governments own figures printed in the BkkPost, kills 12000 people per year in Thailand.

Education & enforcement. If people can't afford to pay the fine, confiscate their vehicle. You'd soon see shops selling helmets like hot cakes, just like in Vietnam seven years ago when they announced mandatory fines for people without them.

[animatic]

Only fines I have EVER heard of on Samui.

Monthly helmet checkpoint 300 baht a pop and a get home free note comes with it.

One guy I know turned left and a poor Burmese worker drove under his SUV and was killed,

Not his fault of course, but. He paid a 150,00, was deported and came back the following week.

One drunken Thai hit the 7/11 pinned a woman to the ground under the burning SUV and building

ran off and I have heard nothing about his getting ANY fine...

She survived, but we have had to help raise cash for her rehabilitation.. she was just walking.

Enforcement is a joke and selective at that.

[GungaDin]

Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on.

I suggest you move on if you don't like the implementation of the rule of law to road safety.

[ScubaBuddha]

Just the same as in many other parts of the world.....just a ticket.

Well now that depends...from where I am from, the "just a ticket" ($250 fine) part would be if you simply forgot to bring your license with you, but you have one. (Cops discretion, usually he/she would let you off with a warning if you are clear and current in the system) If you are driving and you were never issued one the fine goes up. If it was previously revoked,the minimum penalty is a fine plus 5 days to 10 days in jail depending on the reason the license was revoked.

Perhaps a sliding scale then. Pay a fine base on you income, and the relative effect paying that fine will have on your quality of life. You earn 100,000 baht monthly then the fine is related to your disposable income, ability to save, and effect on quality of life. Say perhaps 200,000 bt or higher. You earn 5,000 per month and your fine is 100 bt.

It is very difficult and laborious to prove wealth. If you are going to do it, it needs to be much simpler than that. One set of fines for violations committed with cars/trucks/buses, another for motorbikes. Sorted.

The problem with any kind of increased enforcement/fines is the monetary cost to the poor. A person earning only 200 bt/day will only have perhaps a few hundred baht monthly in their discretionary spending budget, no savings, and no protection or security against emergencies. So this will adversely effect the poor considerably more than the middle or upper classes. It's akin to a regressive system of taxation. All of this is especially true as the current MO of the BiB is to unfairly target motorcycles, i.e. the common Somchai who is barely eeking out an existence.

I am against a tier system of payments for indigent because it sets a bad precedent. The police here on Phuket already publicly admit to allowing illegal sidecar motorbikes, 'as long as they have a light on the side car." because of the poor locals who would be adversely financially impacted. That's little comfort to the guy I saw slam into the back of one in Patong the other day. A person is just as dead whether they are killed by a poor person whom we made dangerous concessions for, or killed by a rich person. Again, fining cars more than motorbikes makes sense because you can inflict more carnage with a car.

I have been in Thailand many years and chalong in phuket has some of the worst driving i have ever seen, whats the point in puting white lines in he middle of the road, they dont seem to need them here,

So true! I love getting off the island because the drivers are relatively sane outside Phuket. Even Bangkok is better. Not by much though.

[ScubaBuddha]

They also thought that those caught for speeding should have their driver's licence confiscated

Yeah that'll stop them driving and riding. huh.gif

I think in a country where I quite often see police officers riding with no safety helmets through the centre of town it's a case of take the rule book and thrown it in the bin.

What do you mean by survey. Just go out and open eyes and see this. I guess people believe thing only when someone else tell them in the news or tv

I vote that non-sequitur post of the year!!

[Bearnagh]

Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on.

I would suggest that people who drive on the wrong side of the road, pull out onto the road right in front of you, overtake you on the wrong side and then cut you up, overtake on blind bends etc. etc. etc....

are actually taking your freedom away.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Bearnagh

[way2muchcoffee]

I obviously wasn't being serious about the sliding scale thing. I was just trying to point out that the fines for traffic violations are probably priced about right, given the huge numbers of working poor in Thailand. The fines here certainly seem low to you, me, us, and to wealthy Thais, but then again, I've never had to live on 5,000 bt/month for decades at a time.

As someone else suggested, I think it is is a good idea to have different levels of fines based on the class of vehicle driven. I don't mean the make/model, but along the lines of 2-wheel, 3, wheel, 4-wheel private, 4-wheel commercial, and large commercial truck or bus.

[Pdaz]

The problem with any kind of increased enforcement/fines is the monetary cost to the poor. A person earning only 200 bt/day will only have perhaps a few hundred baht monthly in their discretionary spending budget, no savings, and no protection or security against emergencies. So this will adversely effect the poor considerably more than the middle or upper classes. It's akin to a regressive system of taxation. All of this is especially true as the current MO of the BiB is to unfairly target motorcycles, i.e. the common Somchai who is barely eeking out an existence.

And why should the poor be treated any differently.. It's this sort of sentimental socialism that causes the problem.. ''Oh dear he's had a hard life let's not make him obey the law..''

If someone can afford a motorcycle then they can afford the Govt. third party insurance and the road tax to use it.. Most scooters come with a free helmet and if not they are available for 150 baht upwards... Why should 'the poor' get an easy ride.. If they want a bike they need to comply with the same rules as everybody else and if they don't have quite enough cash they need to save a bit longer like anyone else..

When one of these 'common Somchais' gets pissed on lao khao and runs his poorly maintained, unlicenced and uninsured samlor into your brand new truck you might change your mind..

The 'I don't give a hoot cos I'm skint and can do whatever I want' attitude is prevelant here and can cause huge headaches for others..

The law ( however poorly enforced) is meant to set a standard.. If you can't make that standard for whatever reason then you have to do without until you can.. Jesus what next ?

Oh he can't quite meet the requirement for sight or inteligence but as he's 'poor' we'll give him a licence anyway...

[mccw]

They also thought that those caught for speeding should have their driver's licence confiscated

Yeah that'll stop them driving and riding.

I think in a country where I quite often see police officers riding with no safety helmets through the centre of town it's a case of take the rule book and thrown it in the bin.

If people dont want to wear a helmet then it should be up to them. the plastic hats arn't good for anything any how.

Speeding pickups etc is by far the most serious danger

[sinbin]

I think it is is a good idea to have different levels of fines based on the class of vehicle driven. I don't mean the make/model, but along the lines of 2-wheel, 3, wheel, 4-wheel private, 4-wheel commercial, and large commercial truck or bus.

They do have that here already. Drink driving a car 8,000 Baht. Drink driving a motorcycle 4,000 Baht. It makes no difference.

[sinbin]

And why should the poor be treated any differently..

If it wasn't for these badly paid ignorant people, the law makers of Thailand would have to look else where to cream their millions from. For me I see that a reason as to why highway laws are not enforced. A kind of consession in other words.

[way2muchcoffee]

And why should the poor be treated any differently.. It's this sort of sentimental socialism that causes the problem.. ''Oh dear he's had a hard life let's not make him obey the law..'' . . . .

You might have considered reading my follow up post to see what I was driving at (hint: it's the one right above yours.)

Edited November 15, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[kimamey]

Perhaps a sliding scale then. Pay a fine base on you income, and the relative effect paying that fine will have on your quality of life. You earn 100,000 baht monthly then the fine is related to your disposable income, ability to save, and effect on quality of life. Say perhaps 200,000 bt or higher. You earn 5,000 per month and your fine is 100 bt.

Seems like a good starting point. Isn't this more or less what happens in Europe?

They did try that in UK some years ago but the problem was that self employed people particularly the richer ones just hid the amount they were earning. A pity since standard fines always hurt poor people while leaving the rich untouched.

[ScubaBuddha]

The light penalty for DUI here is defo not a deterrent for most. And the lack of enforcement even less so.

By comparison:

First California DUI Offense:

California Criminal Status: Non-injury DUIs generally misdemeanors. DUIs that result in bodily injury may be elevated to felony status, depending on the circumstances.

Jail: 48 hours, but not more than 6 months.

California DUI Fines/Costs: $390-$1,000 plus penalty assessments. (Lawyers fees range from $500 to $15,000)

California License Suspension: 4 months suspension; restored after 30 days upon showing of hardship. 1 year suspension if under 21.

Ignition Interlock Device: Court may order use of interlock device.

Vehicle Impound: Court may order impoundment.

California DUI School: Mandatory alcohol education if under 21. Possible first offender school for 3-6 months, depending on BAC level.

California Probation: 3 years informal – no probation officer.

Community Service: In some courts, you may work off some of your fees/costs by doing community service.

Second California DUI Offense Plus:

California Criminal Status: Non-injury DUIs generally misdemeanors. DUIs that result in bodily injury may be elevated to felony status, depending on the circumstances.

Jail: 90-120 days mandatory jail time, but no more than 1 year.

California DUI Fines/Costs: $390 to $1,000.

California License Suspension: 1year suspension.

Vehicle Impound: Yes. Multiple offender’s vehicle may be seized and disposed.

California DUI School: 18-30 months at a DUI school, depending on whether it’s a 2nd or 3rd violation. CA Dept. of Alcohol and Drug Programs has a list of approved schools.

California Probation: 3-5 years informal probation (no officer to report to), OR formal probation (if third offense or more).

Community Service: 10 days required as alternative to jail time.

[kimamey]

Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on.

I've only been to Thailand twice so far both for 2 weeks and this year. I must admit to quite liking the relaxed attitude regarding driving but then I do try to drive safely if I can and I would never get drunk and drive. However I believe that the death rate is around 14,000 a year whilst in the UK with a similar population it was well under 3000 last year http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8118341.stm over 11,000 lives is a high cost and if you are directly involved either personaly or a friend or relative then any death or injury matters. I've been in a car accident caused by someone else in the UK in 1994 and the effect on my back is still with me. I got compensation but it still had a huge effect on any advancement in my job, or it would have done if I hadn't had to give up to look after my sick wife.

I soppose it depends how much freedom you are prepared to lose to save a life. Maybe education would help so people would drive more safely and wouln't have to put up with more regulation. Maybe if Thais were made aware of the amount of regulation and lack of freedom they risk having if they don't improve their driving that might be more incentive. I doubt unfortunately.

[caf]

Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on.

I've only been to Thailand twice so far both for 2 weeks and this year. I must admit to quite liking the relaxed attitude regarding driving but then I do try to drive safely if I can and I would never get drunk and drive. However I believe that the death rate is around 14,000 a year whilst in the UK with a similar population it was well under 3000 last year http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8118341.stm over 11,000 lives is a high cost and if you are directly involved either personaly or a friend or relative then any death or injury matters. I've been in a car accident caused by someone else in the UK in 1994 and the effect on my back is still with me. I got compensation but it still had a huge effect on any advancement in my job, or it would have done if I hadn't had to give up to look after my sick wife.

I soppose it depends how much freedom you are prepared to lose to save a life. Maybe education would help so people would drive more safely and wouln't have to put up with more regulation. Maybe if Thais were made aware of the amount of regulation and lack of freedom they risk having if they don't improve their driving that might be more incentive. I doubt unfortunately.

Good points..

And the comment "I suppose it depends how much freedom you are prepared to lose to save a life." is spot on. everyone likesfreedom but that can not apply whn lives are at stake.

[Brewsta]

Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on.

In my Humble opinion, perhaps Anarchy is better apt than ..."more personal freedom..."

regards,

Brewsta

[Scott]

Enforcement, enforcement, enforcement that's the primary key. Secondly is presence, presence, presence. You need to see the police (or know they are about) and they need to enforce laws as much and as frequently as possible. It's their job.

I get so tired of seeing the police who pay no attention to the people without helmets. The same with hundreds of other infractions.

The main reason for not breaking the law for most people is because of fear of getting caught. Heavy fines aren't always necessary, getting a fine is enough.

I've had two accidents in which I was rear-ended while not moving in a turning lane--one driver was so drunk he could barely stand up--no one important by the way, but no ticket. The other was clearly speeding (long,long tire marks); no ticket. Fortunately no injuries.

[sinbin]

Enforcement, enforcement, enforcement that's the primary key.

As I've written previously, "that would mean policemen thinking on their feet". They aren't clever enough to do that, as most of them buy their positions. They only do what they're instructed to do, on the day they do it, nothing more. That is why you can get fined for having no helmet, and get away with having no insurance or a driving licence. They haven't been instructed to check those.

Unless police only get their positions on educational merit and receive performance enharnced pay, then nothing will change. In "performance enharnced pay", I mean, in that, when they issue fixed fine penalty tickets their pay will be in accordance to their performance. Maybe a percentage of the fine ?

[phetaroi]

This has to be a joke, yes?

Of course it's a joke. There are no motorcycles on the streets. They're all on the sidewalks.

Last evening two European women were standing on the fairly narrow sidewalk (at least we have one) and a motorcycle came right up to them honking it horn, forcing them to jump out of the way. I said to them, "You don't understand. You are only human. That is a motorcycle. You must bow to them." They burst out laughing. The motorcycle "taxi" driver did not appear to be quite so amused. He then turned around, already had a new fare, and forced us all of the sidewalk again.