What Is It That Some Folk Find So Offensive?

[fletchsmile]

Now I can understand Thais getting offended (though I've never ever heard a Thai get offended over negative comments by foreigners about Corruption, Nepotism, Rip-Offs, <deleted> Service, Abuse of Power, Thai Police Antics, Thai Politician Antics..... You know the kind of stuff expats complain of, and almost any Thai you speak to will agree with).

I think you'll find that they often are offended. Just that they show it in more subtle ways than you are used to.

[GuestHouse]

Now I can understand Thais getting offended (though I've never ever heard a Thai get offended over negative comments by foreigners about Corruption, Nepotism, Rip-Offs, <deleted> Service, Abuse of Power, Thai Police Antics, Thai Politician Antics..... You know the kind of stuff expats complain of, and almost any Thai you speak to will agree with).

I think you'll find that they often are offended. Just that they show it in more subtle ways than you are used to.

I'm not sure you and I are discussing the same thing - when I say 'you know the kind of stuff expats complain of, and almost any Thai you speak to will agree with' I'm referring to my experience of speaking to Thais in their own language about things that they don't like about Thailand - and I observe a close correlation between these things and many of the things expats complain about - I've give examples...... Corruption, Nepotism, Rip-Offs, <deleted> Service, Abuse of Power, Thai Police Antics, Thai Politician Antics....

Is it so difficult to accept that Thais might not like these things either? Or are you keen to trip into the territory of 'Expats should not express a negative opinion'?

Edited December 12, 2009 by GuestHouse

[Ulysses G.]

Also applies to the posters who enjoy making the usual derogatory remarks about people. ie Fat Bald and Ugly, Stupid, Uneducated, wanke_r, Loser etc etc. The people who make these remarks in posts should look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are only trying to inflate their own self esteem.

Calling fat people fat to insult them is quite different from calling them fat because that is what they are. Sometimes these terms are needed to explain the meaning of the post, rather than to denigrate anyone, and sometimes you just have to call a wanke_r a wanke_r because that is what they are.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[mahtin]

Nowhere is perfect. It's about what works for you.

I think that a lot of the ex pats that can't accept criticism are the ones that arrived recently, inspired by "The Beach". With a copy of the dvd always close at hand, they become all spiritual, only ever eat Thai food ( in their short stay its become a sin to eat a burger) and grow to loathe everything "farang". BTW, wearing a sarong is obligatary. Long may they stay, they are hilarious.

That must be a kind of Thai mutated ex backpackers?

I am one of what must be a minority who read the book (it came first) but did not see the movie.

A rather depressing variation on the Lord of the Flies theme.

[473geo]

Also applies to the posters who enjoy making the usual derogatory remarks about people. ie Fat Bald and Ugly, Stupid, Uneducated, wanke_r, Loser etc etc. The people who make these remarks in posts should look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are only trying to inflate their own self esteem.

Calling fat people fat to insult them is quite different from calling them fat because that is what they are. Sometimes these terms are needed to explain the meaning of the post, rather than to denigrate anyone, and sometimes you just have to call a wanke_r a wanke_r because that is what they are.

Wank*r - In the literal meaning probably about 99% of the world population......not really much of an insult.......is it??......

Edited December 12, 2009 by 473geo

[ThailandLovr]

Yes I hate people who are constantly negative, moaning, insulting everything Thai, bigoted and trying to spew it to everyone they encounter. But hey, thats just me.

[dumball]

GuestHouse' date='2009-12-12 17:48:48' post='3198388']

Lots of good and valid comments coming out now. It's a shame that usually it's the haters that are most vocal, which tends to pollute and unbalance the forum.

I think you are right, people hating others having a different opinion and then resorting to personal insults ruins far too many discussions.

[/quote)

But____madjibs confessed to being a hater himself ????????/

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Guesthouse seems to care a great deal about what people on this forum think?

To be honest I rarely see a post that's critical and also adds something new or interesting that's worthy of discussion. Often I notice comments that border on looking down on Thai people AND are factually wrong at the same time. You just know that type of person that crap is coming from, but I would agree it's hardly worth replying too. They're not the sort of people I'd hang out with IRL so if they just foul up a forum then I'd just count my blessings that it keeps them off the streets.

[Ricardo]

Calling fat people fat to insult them is quite different from calling them fat because that is what they are. Sometimes these terms are needed to explain the meaning of the post, rather than to denigrate anyone, and sometimes you just have to call a wanke_r a wanke_r because that is what they are.

Excellent command of the Queen's English, for a colonial, old chap ! Jolly well done !

[WaiWai]

I am one of what must be a minority who read the book (it came first) but did not see the movie.

A rather depressing variation on the Lord of the Flies theme.

I saw the film of "The Beach" in a hotel in BKK. Watched with horrified fascination. This film has surely not attracted people to Thailand? How was the book ??

I'm not sure you and I are discussing the same thing - when I say 'you know the kind of stuff expats complain of, and almost any Thai you speak to will agree with' I'm referring to my experience of speaking to Thais in their own language about things that they don't like about Thailand - and I observe a close correlation between these things and many of the things expats complain about - I've give examples...... Corruption, Nepotism, Rip-Offs, <deleted> Service, Abuse of Power, Thai Police Antics, Thai Politician Antics....

Quite. And so much more we may not discuss openly, but aspects of society which so many (Thai or foreign) laud as it serves their own interests.

Edited December 13, 2009 by WaiWai

[PhilHarries]

I think you are right, people hating others having a different opinion and then resorting to personal insults ruins far too many discussions.

Personally I see that as evidence of the polarisation of society pretty much worldwide. Left wing, Right wing, Red shirts, Yellow shirts, Believer, Non-believer the list goes on and there is no middle road, no give and take, no respect for others point of view, no attempt at reaching a concensus.

People enter a discussion convinced that their point of view is not only correct but the only one worth considering. Anyone who disagrees with even a minor point must be battered into submission and if, when, all else fails they resort to calling their opponent a wank*r.

The last word thread in forum #47 was meant to be a parody of, not so much the name calling, but the continuous posting reiterating what has already been said with a view to the last post wins the arguement. A bit like the legal part of contractual discussion covering the last communication being the binding one.

Some of the threads on global warming ably demonstrate this. It may be correct that man's activities are influencing GW, I'm not entirely convinced though, but the warmists as they've been tagged will not consider any alternative or listen to any case against their view and Gordon Brown was given to calling the sceptics "flat earthers" recently. So it's not just threads on ThaiVisa that go that way.

Anyway this has got away from the subject of the thread which was overly negative complaining.

[Pakboong]

To me, complaining is simply one of many symptoms of aging. The part of aging having to do with the elimination of life's variables in our daily pursuit of senility. Bitterness and ignorance affect how quickly we travel. Obviously, all complaining is not due to aging but it can be, even at what we normally consider an early age. No two people age at the same rate nor do any two people reach senility at the same point in their lives. It has been argued that the final two variables are health and weather.

[witsawakorn]

That, with respect to you TB, is not the question - There might be many reasons, valid and invalid why someone criticizes the country they have chosen to move to...... But why do some other expats get so upset about it?

My experience of Thailand is different to yours, your is different to the next guys and consequently we all have different views from our own experience/perspective.

What I've pointed out above is that I can't think of a single incident where some other expat's view of Thailand has had even the slightest impact on my own life in Thailand - I mean there is ZILCH impact if Joe Blogs has a bad Thailand experience and posts about it on TV..... My own day is completely unaffected by Joe's views/comments.

You have made a lot of posts on this thread GH. It seems like a fair amount of time was taken up in your "unaffected" day. I wonder whether a lot of the negative posts are produced by people who are in Thailand for the long haul but are basically unhappy e.g. no money and therefore finding negative things to say about Thailand makes them feel better about their own less than perfect situation.

[GuestHouse]

witsawakorn,

You are not the only person here to equate personal wealth, or lack there of, with complaining about Thailand - But you miss the point of the thread - It is not what causes people to post negative comments or report negative experiences that I've asked about - Rather why do other expats get so very upset about them doing so?

I've repeated this question a number of times (as it seems to be forgotten in the urge to call other people 'Social Undesirables, Losers, Wan_kers' and of course attribute their complaints to their own lack of finances).

Despite the question being very clear, and the thread being open for a couple of days now we still do not have a credible answer to the question - well not one from those who get so upset that is.

Anyway, just to let you know, I had a great day yesterday with not one thought for anyone else's complaints about Thailand, life in Thailand or Thai people in general.

What's more, today seems to be going the same way.

----

Oh an I think you'll find the reason why I have a relatively high number of posts on this thread is because..... brace yourself..... I thought it a good idea to take part in the discussion I started.

Edited December 13, 2009 by GuestHouse

[madjbs]

Actually you mean you don't want to accept any of the answers given to you, which there has been several.

[GuestHouse]

Not at all, I'm willing to accept any that are not full of holes.

And as is recorded above, I've addressed the explanations (pointed out the holes) and await an answer that holds water.

Of course the latest is people complain because the lack wads of money ...... an assumption that is blown to pieces the first time someone who is not p1ss poor makes a complaint.

Edited December 13, 2009 by GuestHouse

[Ulysses G.]

Someone else's negativity about Thailand does not impact my own experience of the place of the people..... I can't get upset about it.

And that is why I am curious that some others do get so very very upset about it.

In my case, it is because I feel that negativity breeds more negativity. Perhaps I am not influenced by others opinions, but many people are and a bad reputation - warranted or not - can damage a tourist destination like Thailand very easily and hurt a lot of people and cost a lot of jobs.

In a different vein, if some lowlife insults my mother or my wife, I understand that they don't know what they are talking about and should just be ignored, but I also understand someone who chooses not to do so. I'm surprised that Guesthouse seems to feel otherwise.

madjbs is correct once again. I answered your question long ago - without calling anyone any names - and you keep pretending otherwise.

Pretending seems to be where you are at.

[GuestHouse]

Someone else's negativity about Thailand does not impact my own experience of the place of the people..... I can't get upset about it.

And that is why I am curious that some others do get so very very upset about it.

In my case, it is because I feel that negativity breeds more negativity. Perhaps I am not influenced by others opinions, but many people are and a bad reputation - warranted or not - can damage a tourist destination like Thailand very easily and hurt a lot of people and cost a lot of jobs.

In a different vein, if some lowlife insults my mother or my wife, I understand that they don't know what they are talking about and should just be ignored, but I also understand someone who chooses not to do so. I'm surprised that Guesthouse seems to feel otherwise.

madjbs is correct once again. I answered your question long ago - without calling anyone any names - and you keep pretending otherwise.

Pretending seems to be where you are at.

And you'll recall the obvious hole in your argument that it is not in the best interest of visitors or investors to only hear the good news (as arbitrated by you). High minded ideals added late after your first response of personal insults ...... Not very convincing UG.

[geriatrickid]

Not at all, I'm willing to accept any that are not full of holes.

And as is recorded above, I've addressed the explanations (pointed out the holes) and await an answer that holds water.

Of course the latest is people complain because the lack wads of money ...... an assumption that is blown to pieces the first time someone who is not p1ss poor makes a complaint.

Grasshopper,

A boat with a large enough hole holds water. Sometimes the vessel holds so much water, it sinks.

(I finally got yo use my Miss Saigon 1972 emoticon, huzzah.)

ps Complaining about complainers is like flatulence. Sure it's a good thing for the holder to let it out, but it's not a good thing for those in close proximity.

See; what's a thread about offensive text, if one cannot make reference to flatulence, or as the weather people call it, Pattaya Fog.

[Ulysses G.]

And you'll recall the obvious hole in your argument that it is not in the best interest of visitors or investors to only hear the good news

No one said anything about "only good news" - just not all of the incessant, erroneous carping. Sorry, but your "holes" do not exist.

[neverdie]

And you'll recall the obvious hole in your argument that it is not in the best interest of visitors or investors to only hear the good news

No one said anything about "only good news" - just not all of the incessant, erroneous carping. Sorry, but your "holes" do not exist.

Irregardless of that UG, Guesthouse will somehow twist things just to prove to you that there are holes. Its a strange world with strange people.

[bonobo]

Guesthouse,

I think there are two main rather easy-to-understand reasons why people seem to be upset at stridently and farcically negative views on Thailand.

The first is the "convert syndrome."  People who embrace something new, be that a religion, new job, new lifestyle, new country, tend to be a little more evangelical, if I can use that phrase, than people who have been in the same camp all their lives.  They take ownership in the new situation, and want to be the biggest supporters. And some people coming to live in Thailand fit this bill.  They feel they need to justify their decision by defending Thailand at all costs. So they get upset, as you put it, when people post negative things about the country.

The second reason is that some people are just wedded to the truth,as they see it.  It is not in their nature to let falsities slide by. If someone posts that Udon is the largest city in Thailand, for example, and I know I am making an extremely simplistic example, there will be posters who will quickly and adamantly post that this is incorrect, Bangkok is the largest city.  This has nothing to do with being upset that Thailand has been "wronged," it is just a correction of facts. So when the same posters corrects a slam at Thailand, such as a comment that all Thais are lazy or some such, it is still a correction of fact, as the poster sees it, rather than a defense of Thailand or a case of looking at Thailand through saffron-colored glasses.

[neverdie]

^bonobo, what about the poster that can critise some things about Thailand, whilst at other times can appreciate the unique aspects of life in Thailand? The unbaised view or opinion?

I mean its only human nature, not to like or dislike a 100% of anything in particular, if you know what I mean?

[cpofc]

Does it not occur to anyone here that as a foreigner your opinion amounts to Jack Sh1t - And it does matter if that is a negative opinion or a positive opinion, it's worth Zilch.

How sad that you feel this way. I am always being asked by my Thai friends for a Farang opinion on a huge range of subjects. We (my thai friends) meet and socialise many nights of the week and discuss everything from Aardvarks to Zuccinis. Actually when I am not there they ring me up and tell me to get my arse down there and join them. They certainly appreciate my different farang opinion. About the Ecomomic Crisis, Global Warming, which is the best water heater, food, grog, cars, football, wars, music, movies, women - in fact all the things blokes talk about when having a drink. Although these days, politics is off the agenda.

They are genuinely intrested to get a different perspective, they often will ask me for advice or to explain something that they don't understand - as i do often with them. if I thought my opinion meant zilch to them i would pack up and leave.

I hope you find some true and genuine Thai friends soon.

[bonobo]

^bonobo, what about the poster that can critise some things about Thailand, whilst at other times can appreciate the unique aspects of life in Thailand? The unbaised view or opinion?

I mean its only human nature, not to like or dislike a 100% of anything in particular, if you know what I mean?

You are right, but I would put that in the category for people who want the truth out there.  I put myself in that category.  I love Thailand, despite my not liking many things about it.  I have posted negative things in the past about driving, beef, laws which discourage tourism, and the like--all the truth as I see it.  But I will also jump in and argue when people post negative comments about Thailand which are false--once again, as I see them.

All of us post primarily opinion.  It is hard to have a completely unbiased view on life.  But I think some of us are better than others at relating our opinions as more unbiased.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Guesthouse,

I think there are two main rather easy-to-understand reasons why people seem to be upset at stridently and farcically negative views on Thailand.

The first is the "convert syndrome." People who embrace something new, be that a religion, new job, new lifestyle, new country, tend to be a little more evangelical, if I can use that phrase, than people who have been in the same camp all their lives. They take ownership in the new situation, and want to be the biggest supporters. And some people coming to live in Thailand fit this bill. They feel they need to justify their decision by defending Thailand at all costs. So they get upset, as you put it, when people post negative things about the country.

The second reason is that some people are just wedded to the truth,as they see it. It is not in their nature to let falsities slide by. If someone posts that Udon is the largest city in Thailand, for example, and I know I am making an extremely simplistic example, there will be posters who will quickly and adamantly post that this is incorrect, Bangkok is the largest city. This has nothing to do with being upset that Thailand has been "wronged," it is just a correction of facts. So when the same posters corrects a slam at Thailand, such as a comment that all Thais are lazy or some such, it is still a correction of fact, as the poster sees it, rather than a defense of Thailand or a case of looking at Thailand through saffron-colored glasses.

And there you have it. No holes, perfect and complete answer. Guesthouse will be happy I'm sure.

[MrHammer]

What about people who complain because they are bored at work?

[nicolas18]

Guesthouse,

I think there are two main rather easy-to-understand reasons why people seem to be upset at stridently and farcically negative views on Thailand.

The first is the "convert syndrome."  People who embrace something new, be that a religion, new job, new lifestyle, new country, tend to be a little more evangelical, if I can use that phrase, than people who have been in the same camp all their lives.  They take ownership in the new situation, and want to be the biggest supporters. And some people coming to live in Thailand fit this bill.  They feel they need to justify their decision by defending Thailand at all costs. So they get upset, as you put it, when people post negative things about the country.

The second reason is that some people are just wedded to the truth,as they see it.  It is not in their nature to let falsities slide by. If someone posts that Udon is the largest city in Thailand, for example, and I know I am making an extremely simplistic example, there will be posters who will quickly and adamantly post that this is incorrect, Bangkok is the largest city.  This has nothing to do with being upset that Thailand has been "wronged," it is just a correction of facts. So when the same posters corrects a slam at Thailand, such as a comment that all Thais are lazy or some such, it is still a correction of fact, as the poster sees it, rather than a defense of Thailand or a case of looking at Thailand through saffron-colored glasses.

Actually, IMHO, there is a third reason.

If you have a chat with a foreigner in your home country, and if that guy starts ranting and moaning about it, the first thought which will probably go through your mind will be "Well, if you hate it so much, why the hel_l do you stay here?". And that is not racist in the least, I had to endure such a conversation with an American guy living in Belgium once (my home country) and that was exactly how I felt.

I have now lived in Thailand for just over a year and yet, I already consider this country as my "home". Not in an administrative way ( I don't have permanent resident status) but in a practical way. I haven't visited my native country in a year and now, my home, my friends and my job are here.

It is therefore quite natural, I think, to react the same way to unfair criticism as I would have reacted in Belgium.

This being said, I don't think that a lot of farangs would criticize someone who would complain about being robbed in Thailand. In my personal experience, the only complaints which tend to start flame wars are the semi'racist ones (Thais are lazy, stupid, etc...) or the ones where farangs argue that the Western way of doing things is the only and right way.

[473geo]

Bonobo has it right.......if posters over exaggerate their personal opinions when laying negative posts........it is surely only to be expected other members will try to redress the balance..........

After all the comments and replies thus far.....I am not sure if Guesthouse is asking for the reason why they wish to redress the balance.......or an explanation as to the content/tone of some of the responses.......

[phetaroi]

Personally I see that as evidence of the polarisation of society pretty much worldwide. Left wing, Right wing, Red shirts, Yellow shirts, Believer, Non-believer the list goes on and there is no middle road, no give and take, no respect for others point of view, no attempt at reaching a concensus.

People enter a discussion convinced that their point of view is not only correct but the only one worth considering. Anyone who disagrees with even a minor point must be battered into submission and if, when, all else fails they resort to calling their opponent a wank*r.

Phil, you're absolutely right. I often lament the loss of the great art of compromise.