All-out Attempt By Red Shirts To Bring Down Government

[Steve2UK]

<snip>

PPP and Democrats had the same amount of popular votes in the last election.

Bizarre how this one keeps doing the rounds again and again........ so here, for the nth time, are the actual results. The above statement is true only for proportional votes (Democrats actually got 0.03% more proportional votes than PPP) - and clearly untrue for constituency votes (PPP got 6.33% more than Democrats).

Totals

PPP - 40,365,255

Dem - 35,829,961

[sbk]

Final call, everyone posting in this thread already knows this. Drop the stupid name calling of either groups, political parties, politicians etc. It is going to stop. Next one to use yellow shits, or any other stupid name calling is going to get a posting rights suspension because you have all been warned about this countless times but, apparently, it hasn't sunk in.

[mca]

If you are going to stage a government OVERTHROW you target Bangkok. That is where the government is located.

This message was proudly brought to you by our sponsors the Committee for National Security.

Wherever the info may come from, it is obvious. Do you doubt Thaksin has repeatedly attempted violent revolutions here? You may support him but you can't deny what he is trying to do.

Actually my feeble attempt at humour was pointing out your sentence could equally apply to the coup makers. Nothing more.

[mca]

Oh please, give it a rest. The poor are the ones who got thailand into this place in the first place with their bribe taking from Taksin and their use of bombs and violence and terrorism to get into power. The poor are uneducated and unfortunately no government has helped them get an education but the yellow shirts believe that the poor because of their lack of education and high illiteracy rates are unable to understand political issues and are easily corrupted. I agree.

Can't recall any bombs, violence and terrorism from the poor during the general election of 2001 which helped Thaksin get into power.

Edited January 2, 2010 by mca

[Insight]

Oh please, give it a rest. The poor are the ones who got thailand into this place in the first place with their bribe taking from Taksin and their use of bombs and violence and terrorism to get into power. The poor are uneducated and unfortunately no government has helped them get an education but the yellow shirts believe that the poor because of their lack of education and high illiteracy rates are unable to understand political issues and are easily corrupted. I agree.

Can't recall any bombs, violence and terrorism from the poor during the general election of 2001 which helped Thaksin get into power.

Nope, just dosh, and lots, and lots of it.

(Not that any of it was needed, if I recall an earlier post you made on the topic.)

[Steve2UK]

And again: In Thailand people don't elect a government. Neither this nor the previous. You vote either for parties or for people in your area and to recall: most of the coalition partners told before the election that they won't support Thaksin. Now they don't support him....

PPP and Democrats had the same amount of popular votes in the last election.

BTW, in addition to my earlier post about the inaccuracy of your final sentence, I'm also interested in what you said before that. Allowing that PPP was recognised as a self-declared surrogate for Thaksin/TRT, could you please clarify your statement "most of the coalition partners told before the election that they won't support Thaksin"? Can you cite any evidence in support of that? Can you also explain how it was that all of them were invited to join the PPP (surrogate for Thaksin) government coalition - and did so - leaving the Democrats as sole opposition party?

[webfact]

Worst political scenario ever: Meechai

By THE NATION ON SUNDAY

Published on January 3, 2010

Former National Legislative Assembly chairman Meechai Ruchupan yesterday expressed concern over the prolonged political conflict, calling the crisis the worst scenario the country has ever faced.

Holding differing ideologies is normal in a democratic society, but the country is in deep trouble when all sides put their interest above the nation's. "They all think how to solve their own problems not the country's," he said.

He also could not think of any way to clean up the political mess because the situation has reached the point where nothing can stop it.

"The national reconciliation that we're trying to bring about is hard to come by because all sides think of their own interest," he said.

Getting an impartial panel to mediate is not easy either because everyone has been branded just by what he says.

"Their attitude is if they like what you say then you belong to their camp, but if not then you're the enemy. They do not think that, okay, we see things differently and together we find solutions," he said.

The red shirts' proposal to dissolve the House and call a general election was no answer to the problems.

"If it were a good way out, they would have done that. They have not agreed to that. Thais can now only pray to Phra Siamthevathirat," he added.

Meanwhile, Nattawut Saikua, a leader of the Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship, dismissed Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban's warning that the red shirts were intent on sabotaging the government by waging war against the people.

He said the red shirts had announced that their goal was to bring down the government through peaceful means.

"Sabotage was what happened to the country on September 19, 2006 and when the airport was seized and when the justice system has been undermined since 2007. No one thinks of burning down the country," he said.

That Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva turned down the red shirts' proposal to pardon fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra was not unexpected, as they believe Abhisit does not have the power to do so, he said. "He cannot even appoint a national police chief. He's just a puppet."

He refused to confirm Pallop Pinmanee's statement that rangers would help the red shirts unseat the government, but admitted that they have retired military and police officers to help them.

The red shirts will meet on January 15 to decide which day they would call a mass rally, where and how.

"We hope that we can mobilise a historic high number of red shirts and that we will win," he said.

-- The Nation 2010-01-03

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[beammeup]

With these rallies Taksin really is redistributing his wealth to the poor in rural Thailand (they must be loving it). An election would help too. I just hope he can cover it and is not borrowing against his frozen assets. The poo is really going to hit the fan if he cant.

[mca]

Oh please, give it a rest. The poor are the ones who got thailand into this place in the first place with their bribe taking from Taksin and their use of bombs and violence and terrorism to get into power. The poor are uneducated and unfortunately no government has helped them get an education but the yellow shirts believe that the poor because of their lack of education and high illiteracy rates are unable to understand political issues and are easily corrupted. I agree.

Can't recall any bombs, violence and terrorism from the poor during the general election of 2001 which helped Thaksin get into power.

Nope, just dosh, and lots, and lots of it.

(Not that any of it was needed, if I recall an earlier post you made on the topic.)

I'm of the opinion that even if the vote buying section of the electorate (by all parties) was taken out of the equation TRT would still have won. As I recall even the esteemed partners of this site The Nation predicted a TRT win and the Dems knew they couldn't beat a TRT coalition.

It's strange isn't it how electoral fraud wasn't pursued in trying to dissolve a party. It obviously happened. (Though I guess the Dems pockets weren't deep enough). They were all over it like a rash come last time . Was there an investigation for all the "dosh, lots and lots of it"? Nope. TRT came to power and the Dems conceded defeat.

No investigation for obvious electoral fraud. No complaints from the Dems. I dunno. Maybe certain sectors of Thai society wanted to see how much of a poodle Thaksin was going to be. They found out later that the poodle had teeth, had grown beyond their control and was quite willing to bite it's owners.

Couldn't have that could we. Especially on LOS.

Edited January 3, 2010 by mca

[geriatrickid]

Here's something to munch on; If people were gainfully employed and really working, i.e. not underemployed, they would not have time for political rallies and protests. Think about it: How were those yellow shirts able to go spend weeks occupying the government buildings and then add on the airports if they were fully employed? You can't just walk away from work. The same holds for the Reds.

The route to avoid mass protests is to address the inefficiencies in the economy, to reduce underemployment and to boost the wages of the working poor. People that have something to do will usually pick that activity over standing around in a noisy crowd listening to boring speeches and then waiting an hour to take a whizz.

Don't believe me? Ask someone with a young kid. When the child goes in to pestering brat mode, you give the kid something to occupy it, a small task, and the child simmers down. Remove the economic reasons and the Yellow and Red crowds will shrink.

[antony77]

I think that when the is over (when the courts rule to seize the money taken from Thaksin), then we will see a sharp decline in this kind of activity. When the government survivies this period, which I believe they will, they will have gained a great deal in the eyes of most Thai people. If that follows with some sort of constitutional ammendments and then elections by years end, dont' discount the possibility of the current coalition returning to power, with the current PM as well. Would like to see a few 'cabinet transfers" in the upcoming reshuffle. The commerce minister, depty health, etc. to name a few.

Nice quote. Thailand has a good and honest PM. Let us hope he can stay in power long enough to put the country back on its feet.

[geriatrickid]

Nice quote. Thailand has a good and honest PM. Let us hope he can stay in power long enough to put the country back on its feet.

Add to that, zero international credibility. Although it is wonderful being "popular" in one's country, which Mr. Abhisit is not, it is extremely difficult to achieve international trade support, financial guarantees and funding and good will when the foreign entities that grant such accomodations do not think much of you. The Hmong situation has put Mr. Abhisit's government on the hot potato list for some countries. Toss in the perception of rampant corruption and general unreliability and the foreign lenders and investors have the jitters. Although Japan couldn't care less about the Hmong it does care if the yen invested by its banks and backed by the government is lost. If Thailand wants to avail itself of the millions of dollars of aid from the EU and USA that are sent indirectly, it will have to deal with the images of children transported on military trucks contrary to the pleas of those nations and the UN. The USA is turning to Vietnam as relations are normalized. Germany continues to pursue a more vigorous investment strategy in Malaysia while putting Thailand on the back burner. The Chinese factories continually undercut Thailand's factories. There is a deep groundswell of sentiment in the UK and USA amongst others to put a damper on financial investment overseas while domestic economies are struggling. Thailand has lost the robust international goodwill it once had. Look at the numbers. Mr. Abhisit may not have been responsible for all of this but he's the PM as the poop hits the fan and he'll be the one splattered with it as he finds himself in some tough trade and financing negotiations this year. hardened international trade and diplomatic relations means economic hardship for the Thai domestic economy and translates into depressed wages and more underemployment.

Edited January 3, 2010 by geriatrickid

[ChiangMaiFun]

I think that when the is over (when the courts rule to seize the money taken from Thaksin), then we will see a sharp decline in this kind of activity. When the government survivies this period, which I believe they will, they will have gained a great deal in the eyes of most Thai people. If that follows with some sort of constitutional ammendments and then elections by years end, dont' discount the possibility of the current coalition returning to power, with the current PM as well. Would like to see a few 'cabinet transfers" in the upcoming reshuffle. The commerce minister, depty health, etc. to name a few.

Nice quote. Thailand has a good and honest PM. Let us hope he can stay in power long enough to put the country back on its feet.

I actually like him (but dislike the yellows) he comes across as intelligent and articulate - but nothing will be resolved until he wins a mandate from the people by election (which is highly unlikely). When all is said and done many say things were much better under Thaksin - I am not a Thaksin apologist but there is little support here for the current government - mostly because people feel it was foisted upon them through the airport takeover etc. but TIT and we are guests.

[tomahawk]

Now that it has been brought up, I believe the Hmong situation conducted by current regime is worse genocide than the drug dealer extrajudicial campaign that occurred during Thaksin administration. But there does not seem to be such public outcry against this. At least victims of drug war were criminals. Hmongs did nothing except try to survive. The PAD airport takeover and this Hmong situation did far more to undermine Thailand's standings in the eyes of the world than whatever Thaksin did, which basically most people outside of this country neither knew of nor cared about. I am American Indian and see many similarities between situation of hilltribe people here and my own people in America. However, what is going on here is worse. Many Indians were killed by white man, but to be fair many white men killed by Indians as it was war. Hmongs aren't killing anyone in Thailand. And though Indian land was taken, and they were forced to live on reservations, they were not forced to go someplace where they would be murdered. And also to be fair there have been many things which US govt. and people have done to help Indians and make life better. Not much seems to be done to help these people, and that which is done is by western foreigners and Christian church.

[jonclark]

This isn't really about red or yellow. That is just a title given to each group by the media which has stuck. Personally I think the 'reds' are fed up with being poor. Whenever i travel out of Bangkok I am struck by the level of poverty which exists, the shacks, that serve as homes, the old women collecting trash so they can make enough money to eat, the school children who walk miles in the sun or don;t have enough money to buy lunch etc. etc. I'm sure all posters here could add their own examples.

These people and the children of these people need hope that their lives will improve, that there is a brighter future, and that is what the 'red' camp offers them, a voice and hope. Sure its easy to see how their desperation has been manipulated. But, manipulation and hope is better than no hope at all.

A government that offers these people hope and delivers, would be massively popular. Let the middle and upper classes shoulder the burden. They can afford it comparatively. Will i be ridiculed for make such a Utopian statement, of course TiT. But in my view this is the crux of the matter. I don't believe that the farmers etc. of the red camp want to bring down the country in a blaze of revolution.

I think they want their rightful share of hope and opportunity. Put simple this is a fight between the 'haves and have nots'

[rixalex]

At least victims of drug war were criminals.

For people to be considered criminals there requires to be trials - there were none.

You are calling these victims criminals based on pure speculation. How would you like speculation to decide your fate or that of your family?

[ChiangMaiFun]

At least victims of drug war were criminals.

For people to be considered criminals there requires to be trials - there were none.

You are calling these victims criminals based on pure speculation. How would you like speculation to decide your fate or that of your family?

what a pussy footed liberal PC response - you catch em with coke dealing? and you have sympathy for those scum - jeeze this is one reason I left the PC world of farangland behind - if Thaksin took some of these scum off the streets then great! Hmong get my greatest sympathy - just innocent folk trying to scrape a living not destroy people's lives - to compare the two is like comparing Hitler to Mother Theresa!

[tomahawk]

I am not saying I do not believe there should be trials for suspected criminals. I am saying that I have a greater sympathy for Hmong than for drug dealers. Actually, every single Thai person I have talked to about this drug war thinks it was a good thing, and the streets were safer then. I am not saying every person inTthailand feels this way, but I believe the majority do.

[Jingthing]

It is true the majority of Thais supported Thaksin's extrajudicial murders of his own people. That, however, does not mean we have to internalize those disgusting values. It was mass murder without trials. It was wrong. Period! These murders had very little to do with the political and criminal corruption reasons Thaksin was pushed out of Thailand. The most vocal protests against what Thaksin did during his bloody so called drug war came from outside of Thailand. While we have no business or really any hope of changing the more unpleasant aspects of Thai values, that again does not mean we have to share them.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Let's stay on topic please.

[ChiangMaiFun]

It is true the majority of Thais supported Thaksin's extrajudicial murders of his own people. That, however, does not mean we have to internalize those disgusting values. It was mass murder without trials. It was wrong. Period! These murders had very little to do with the political and criminal corruption reasons Thaksin was pushed out of Thailand. The most vocal protests against what Thaksin did during his bloody so called drug war came from outside of Thailand. While we have no business or really any hope of changing the more unpleasant aspects of Thai values, that again does not mean we have to share them.

Normally, of course, I would support the use of the Court system - but TIT and I have little sympathy for a drug dealer who is selling to Thai youth and then gets 'popped' when a raid is made... sorry but it may not be perfect but it's way down the list of priorities when compared with the plight of the Hmong.

If your son or daughter was a drug addict because of these scum your sympathy may wane somewhat.

[rixalex]

For people to be considered criminals there requires to be trials - there were none.

You are calling these victims criminals based on pure speculation. How would you like speculation to decide your fate or that of your family?

what a pussy footed liberal PC response -

Opposing death without trial is not pussy-footed liberalism, it's humanitarianism, something that clearly means little to you.

you catch em with coke dealing?

And you know they were dealing coke how exactly? You went to their non-existent trials and saw the imaginary evidence with your very own eyes?

[Nuchanart]

Some basic differences between demonstrations by the Yellows and ones by the Reds:

1. The Yellows were generally peaceful, whereas the Reds have been threatening.

2. The Yellows brought along babies and grandparents. The Reds mostly have young adults with gnarly attitudes.

3. The Yellow demonstrations have been well attended. The Red demonstrations, since Spring of '09, have been sparsely attended, if not called off right before the scheduled date because fear of few numbers attending.

4. The Yellows are generally not paid to attend, the Reds are generally paid to attend.

I wonder if Thais have a childhood story in their archives similar to "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". For those who don't know, it's about a boy who found he could get a lot of attention in his village by loudly yelling 'wolf!'. All the villagers would grab weapons and/or flee fearfully each time the boy yelled it, even though there wasn't a wolf threatening the village those times. Several episodes later, the boy notices a real wolf trotting towards the village. He runs to town and yells again, "Wolf, wolf!" but all the villagers just grin at him and do nothing, because they're so used to his bluffs.

The story dovetails perfectly with the recent warnings about Reds demonstrating en masse and causing chaos and possibly bringing down the government. Those who are bleating such alarms are like the boy who cried wolf. In other words, there is no wolf threatening to come in to the village. Mr. Thaksin has essentially been de-fanged, and his support is getting more flaccid week by week.

Neither agrees or disagrees. I am on the fence.

[Jingthing]

It is true the majority of Thais supported Thaksin's extrajudicial murders of his own people. That, however, does not mean we have to internalize those disgusting values. It was mass murder without trials. It was wrong. Period! These murders had very little to do with the political and criminal corruption reasons Thaksin was pushed out of Thailand. The most vocal protests against what Thaksin did during his bloody so called drug war came from outside of Thailand. While we have no business or really any hope of changing the more unpleasant aspects of Thai values, that again does not mean we have to share them.

Normally, of course, I would support the use of the Court system - but TIT and I have little sympathy for a drug dealer who is selling to Thai youth and then gets 'popped' when a raid is made... sorry but it may not be perfect but it's way down the list of priorities when compared with the plight of the Hmong.

If your son or daughter was a drug addict because of these scum your sympathy may wane somewhat.

Many people who had nothing to do with drug dealings were killed just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is no excuse for this kind of policy. None.

[ChiangMaiFun]

For people to be considered criminals there requires to be trials - there were none.

You are calling these victims criminals based on pure speculation. How would you like speculation to decide your fate or that of your family?

what a pussy footed liberal PC response -

Opposing death without trial is not pussy-footed liberalism, it's humanitarianism, something that clearly means little to you.

you catch em with coke dealing?

tell that to the Fathers and Mothers ofthe dead kids

And you know they were dealing coke how exactly? You went to their non-existent trials and saw the imaginary evidence with your very own eyes?

We don't know - this is a fair point - just like you don't know innocent people were killed - another fair point... let's move on

[ChiangMaiFun]

It is true the majority of Thais supported Thaksin's extrajudicial murders of his own people. That, however, does not mean we have to internalize those disgusting values. It was mass murder without trials. It was wrong. Period! These murders had very little to do with the political and criminal corruption reasons Thaksin was pushed out of Thailand. The most vocal protests against what Thaksin did during his bloody so called drug war came from outside of Thailand. While we have no business or really any hope of changing the more unpleasant aspects of Thai values, that again does not mean we have to share them.

Normally, of course, I would support the use of the Court system - but TIT and I have little sympathy for a drug dealer who is selling to Thai youth and then gets 'popped' when a raid is made... sorry but it may not be perfect but it's way down the list of priorities when compared with the plight of the Hmong.

If your son or daughter was a drug addict because of these scum your sympathy may wane somewhat.

Many people who had nothing to do with drug dealings were killed just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is no excuse for this kind of policy. None.

We don't know - and of course that is terrible if it were the case... but in any war there are casulties (think Iraq) - think about the victims sometimes?

[Jingthing]

We don't know - and of course that is terrible if it were the case... but in any war there are casulties (think Iraq) - think about the victims sometimes?

No, we do know. Just look it up.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/11/28/nat...al_30057621.php

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...ec=Worldupdates

Do Thaksin apologists know no bounds of decency?

Edited January 3, 2010 by Jingthing

[ChiangMaiFun]

We don't know - and of course that is terrible if it were the case... but in any war there are casulties (think Iraq) - think about the victims sometimes?

No, we do know. Just look it up.

Victors history... anyway... we are off topic - ideally no drug dealers and no innocent deaths either side - we can all agree to that!

[scorecard]

This isn't really about red or yellow. That is just a title given to each group by the media which has stuck. Personally I think the 'reds' are fed up with being poor. Whenever i travel out of Bangkok I am struck by the level of poverty which exists, the shacks, that serve as homes, the old women collecting trash so they can make enough money to eat, the school children who walk miles in the sun or don;t have enough money to buy lunch etc. etc. I'm sure all posters here could add their own examples.

These people and the children of these people need hope that their lives will improve, that there is a brighter future, and that is what the 'red' camp offers them, a voice and hope. Sure its easy to see how their desperation has been manipulated. But, manipulation and hope is better than no hope at all.

A government that offers these people hope and delivers, would be massively popular. Let the middle and upper classes shoulder the burden. They can afford it comparatively. Will i be ridiculed for make such a Utopian statement, of course TiT. But in my view this is the crux of the matter. I don't believe that the farmers etc. of the red camp want to bring down the country in a blaze of revolution.

I think they want their rightful share of hope and opportunity. Put simple this is a fight between the 'haves and have nots'

Agree with most of your points.

So why didn't takki (who still claims to be the champion of the poor and the champion of democracy)put some solid structural reforms into place which would ultimately help the rural poor to have greater real and sustainable opportunities in life? He didn't, he just used them!

The most obvious example is a massive improvement in education:

- Availability

- Buildings, resources

- Teachers required to teach up country for ? years before they can qualify for higher salry, promotion, etc

- Transport, food, and more...

At one stage takki was the education minister, he lasted for just a few months, full of wild claims about reforming the world - nothing happened. (Just like his wild claims that he could and would fix all the Bkk traffic in six months.)

(And please don't tell me about the 1million Baht fund for each village, this way also vote buying).

To be fair, it should be said that other governments (all parties) before takki should also have put structural reforms in place. They also didn't take action.)

[jonclark]

This isn't really about red or yellow. That is just a title given to each group by the media which has stuck. Personally I think the 'reds' are fed up with being poor. Whenever i travel out of Bangkok I am struck by the level of poverty which exists, the shacks, that serve as homes, the old women collecting trash so they can make enough money to eat, the school children who walk miles in the sun or don;t have enough money to buy lunch etc. etc. I'm sure all posters here could add their own examples.

These people and the children of these people need hope that their lives will improve, that there is a brighter future, and that is what the 'red' camp offers them, a voice and hope. Sure its easy to see how their desperation has been manipulated. But, manipulation and hope is better than no hope at all.

A government that offers these people hope and delivers, would be massively popular. Let the middle and upper classes shoulder the burden. They can afford it comparatively. Will i be ridiculed for make such a Utopian statement, of course TiT. But in my view this is the crux of the matter. I don't believe that the farmers etc. of the red camp want to bring down the country in a blaze of revolution.

I think they want their rightful share of hope and opportunity. Put simple this is a fight between the 'haves and have nots'

Agree with most of your points.

So why didn't takki (who still claims to be the champion of the poor and the champion of democracy)put some solid structural reforms into place which would ultimately help the rural poor to have greater real and sustainable opportunities in life? He didn't, he just used them!

The most obvious example is a massive improvement in education:

- Availability

- Buildings, resources

- Teachers required to teach up country for ? years before they can qualify for higher salry, promotion, etc

- Transport, food, and more...

At one stage takki was the education minister, he lasted for just a few months, full of wild claims about reforming the world - nothing happened. (Just like his wild claims that he could and would fix all the Bkk traffic in six months.)

(And please don't tell me about the 1million Baht fund for each village, this way also vote buying).

To be fair, it should be said that other governments (all parties) before takki should also have put structural reforms in place. They also didn't take action.)

Yes, it's so sad to see the glaringly obvious problems being paid merely lip service by individuals in order for them to thrust themselves into positions of power.

I think those in power are scared of the masses and look to keep them downtrodden and subservient. A scared and uneducated populace is far easier to control than a well educated and confident group of voters. Khun Taksin and company aside, I hope the poor majority get the recognition and opportunities they and their children deserve. If the government actually delivers and provides tangible and real changes to the they way Thailand is run and administered.

Will the red or yellows do this - No. It would nice to see a third party, with a proper ideological principle join the fray.