Thai Govt Aims At Turning Thailand Into Full Welfare State

[samran]

Please provide an example of any socialist experiment that has worked. Handouts is never the way to go, it is allowing people the freedom to excel that is. Don't exchange a broken system with another. Like fixing a broken leg by starting to bash the other one...

Australia. Economy is booming, well run and unemployment has just dropped to 5.6%. Reforms to the economy in the 1980's to make it more competitive, while maintaining a strong, but targeted safety net for people who live there.

For that you get taxation roughly at 24% of GDP, one of the lowest in the OECD. You have a set of government programmes, paid for out of this. This includes:

Medicare: Australia's universal health system. Good for the urgent and imprtant stuff so you can get sick and not have to go into bankruptcy to pay for it. Leaves people able to get better and have, as you say "the freedom to excel". Oh, and they don't reject you if you've already had something, and you don't lose it if you become unemployed. Check it out:

http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/about/index.jsp

The Higher Education Contributions Scheme: an interest free loan for students to go to university. It gets paid back when you go to work, automatically, out of your pay. But only if you earn enough. If not, you never pay it back. Allows us to train people like teachers, nurses etc who do important - but low paid jobs - for the rest of society, unincumbered by a student debt: Check it out

http://www.goingtouni.gov.au/Main/Quickfin...ns/HECSHELP.htm

Austudy: For those in education, who need a bit of financial aid, so they can focus on study and have the 'freedom to excel' we have Austudy. Check it out.

http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/inte...nts/austudy.htm

Baby bonus: $5000 when your child is born. Just so they have a better chance at the start in life, and have the 'freedom to excel', as you say.

You've got compulsory superannuation, which is puts a mandated 9% of your salary into a pension fund...has made Australia the 4th largest place in the world for funds under management and ensures people a confortable retirement income.

More generally, check out the range of government payment for people at

http://www.centrelink.gov.au/

includes unemployent benefits, family payments, old age benefits.

Ah yes, we have freedom of speech, a robust democracy which is arguably less captured by big business, than say the US. And an economy where the people have the 'freedom to excel'.

Norway's welfare state exists because of its oil revenues. Canada's welfare state exists because of its natural resource revenues.

Portugal, Greece, and Spain's welfare states are near collapse because they do not have the revenues to support the programs.

How will Thailand pay for its welfare state. Let's see the revenue generating plan first.

It is about broadening the tax base, and potentially lowering the average taxes for those who do pay. Lots of ways to do this.

Edited January 22, 2010 by samran

[mommysboy]

excellent idea - all the foreigners can stop supporting their isaan girlfriends uncles and aunties

and grandmas and brothers and sisters and third cousins...

Precisely. It's a great idea, not unlike freeing slaves.

[citizen33]

excellent idea - all the foreigners can stop supporting their isaan girlfriends uncles and aunties

and grandmas and brothers and sisters and third cousins...

Precisely. It's a great idea, not unlike freeing slaves.

One thing I'd like to see is a Thai reciprocal health care agreement with other willing nations, something that many countries with welfare state systems have. In essence citizens from the partner countries can enjoy basic state health care free (or with the usual small co-payment) when visiting the other country. It isn't going to help our US friends much, since they have nothing much to reciprocate with (unless the 'public option' ever takes off), but it could certainly help Europeans, Aussies and UK visitors. If we could get access to the Social Security Scheme great, but even the UC scheme would be a big plus for aged expats who are otherwise struggling to get private insurance cover. The UK already has many such agreements, some with quite poor nations, so why not Thailand?

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabr...Acountries.aspx

I'd say this becomes more likely if the Thai welfare safety net is beefed up that little bit more.

Edited January 22, 2010 by citizen33

[kennalder]

Norway's welfare state exists because of its oil revenues. Canada's welfare state exists because of its natural resource revenues.

Portugal, Greece, and Spain's welfare states are near collapse because they do not have the revenues to support the programs.

How will Thailand pay for its welfare state. Let's see the revenue generating plan first.

The point is you just have to start somewhere - it's a noble aim, and of corse it will have to be paid for. You sicken me too!

Let me sicken you as well. Western countries are on the brink of collapse, because of debt burdens. I'm not talking about just Greece, Spain etc. When the full effects of funding the huge US deficit is felt over the next 30 years, interest rates are going to go so high, that the world will likely be in a permanent recession. The party we all enjoyed by borrowing from the future is about to end. It is going to be painful.

[MJP]

Norway's welfare state exists because of its oil revenues. Canada's welfare state exists because of its natural resource revenues.

Portugal, Greece, and Spain's welfare states are near collapse because they do not have the revenues to support the programs.

How will Thailand pay for its welfare state. Let's see the revenue generating plan first.

The point is you just have to start somewhere - it's a noble aim, and of corse it will have to be paid for. You sicken me too!

Why does the poster 'sicken you'? Makes a fair point.

Start with a decent minimum wage. It's difficult to find and retain staff in Thailand, can't help but think this is because the wages for staff are derisory.

[MJP]

Norway's welfare state exists because of its oil revenues. Canada's welfare state exists because of its natural resource revenues.

Portugal, Greece, and Spain's welfare states are near collapse because they do not have the revenues to support the programs.

How will Thailand pay for its welfare state. Let's see the revenue generating plan first.

The point is you just have to start somewhere - it's a noble aim, and of corse it will have to be paid for. You sicken me too!

Let me sicken you as well. Western countries are on the brink of collapse, because of debt burdens. I'm not talking about just Greece, Spain etc. When the full effects of funding the huge US deficit is felt over the next 30 years, interest rates are going to go so high, that the world will likely be in a permanent recession. The party we all enjoyed by borrowing from the future is about to end. It is going to be painful.

Anytime the world looks like it's emerging from recession, oil price will bang up . . . economies slow again . . . and repeat.

Demographics is the other elephant in the room.

[MAJIC]

A lofty aspiration long overdue...

Yes certainly an ambitious idea,but at least there is aknowledgement that something must be done for the very poor.Lets hope it can achieve at least something.

[MAJIC]

Please provide an example of any socialist experiment that has worked. Handouts is never the way to go, it is allowing people the freedom to excel that is. Don't exchange a broken system with another. Like fixing a broken leg by starting to bash the other one...

Examples of socialist experiments that have worked: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, UK, and Canada. Socialized education and health care are the building blocks for the market and competition to excel. Without socialized education and health care, the divide between the working class and the elite expands to the point where the elite have an unfair advantage at birth. Socialism in the form of education and health allows for equal opportunity and greater competition which creates greater innovation and increases the standards of living. The benefits of capitalism work best when there is a strong system of entitlements in place to allow for increased competition. We do not need pure capitalism or pure socialism, but markets to function in conjunction with socialistic programs that allow all people to start on an equal level.

Yes: The example of a Socialist experiment that has worked:is the NHS in the UK,BEEN AROUND FOR 60 YEARS +,and is still helping the poor who cant afford private health care. Not a perfect system and yes there are waiting lists,they are the largest employers in the UK (over a million staff ) no doubt some on this site will be happy to run it down,but think before you do. If you had a serious illness would you go home to the NHS? or stay in Thailand and go bust being ripped of by the Hospitals here???? I for one know what choice I would make!

[phetaroi]

pie in the sky - looks for me more like an early start to the general election, than a political will.

How do you know it's "pie in the sky" when there are absolutely no specifics listed in the article?

[Meridian007]

Yes, it is a laudable idea. I guess that Abhisit wants to let the red shirts know that he is at least thinking about the poor in Issan.

The problem is that Thailand tends to pull ideas out of a hat, and decides that it can fly before it has learned to crawl. Major changes to the infrastructure are needed here before they can even think about creating a welfare state.

A comprehensive taxation system needs to be set up first, that can uncover and punish those who evade it, (but it won't happen, look at the joke that is the land tax ideas), or there needs to be some other way to fund it as GeriatricKid suggested earlier. Get rid of the worst of the corruption, (minimize it to the point that it is easier to hide, similar to the West), set up the laws that are needed, enforce them, (that is the biggest elephant being ignored in the room), and grow a basis of capital that can be used for the welfare system. Then it might work, but I'll be surprised.

Once again the cart is being put ahead of the horse. This makes me feel that it is just being said to bump up opinion, rather than having any basis in reality.

[Artisi]

And why shouldn't Thailand look and work toward a better social system for all its population, affordable health care, education, decent transport systems, fair and just legal system for all, care and support for the elderly etc. Sure, the taxation system will need a major overhaul as will stopping the "creaming-off"of mega bucks from all government projects and the lining of the pockets of the hi-so population, all this impacts on the available resources which could otherwise be used for an fairer social system.

This might well be thought as "pie-in-the-sky" but sitting back thinking or doing nothing will never bring about change. Other countries have workable social systems, they may not be perfect and could possibly do with a lot of change or overhaul but at least they have a system in comparison to Thailand which has nothing and never will unless a start is made somewhere.

[salty]

What people need are decent schools, decent health care, decent roads, decent food, and decent access to jobs. If that is welfare, so be it.

And decent footpaths/sidewalks.

[geriatrickid]

Norway's welfare state exists because of its oil revenues. Canada's welfare state exists because of its natural resource revenues.

Portugal, Greece, and Spain's welfare states are near collapse because they do not have the revenues to support the programs.

How will Thailand pay for its welfare state. Let's see the revenue generating plan first.

The point is you just have to start somewhere - it's a noble aim, and of corse it will have to be paid for. You sicken me too!

Yes, one has to start somewhere, and it's called fiscal planning. Part of the discussion is the manner in which the proposal will be paid. The inability to pay for the programs results in failure to deliver on the promises and then the dominos fall. If you are sickened by the concept of planning and not selling future generations into the slavery of debt, then I hope your illness does not cause you to linger as you may disappointed in the public health care rendered under such economic conditions.

Samran, I do not argue with the benefits of a responsible and comprehensive social support systems. Education, health care, proper pensions etc. all support the development of a robust nation. Unfortunately, when people do not have the planning and infrastructure in place, the hoped for social programs cannot be implemented. All of the countries you cite had the advantage of years of preparation and a phase in. There was efficient and good government in place, there was an existing infrastructure of education and healthcare and all that good stuff upon which to build. Thailand's government is talking of pie in the sky without any consideration given to setting the priorities and how to accomplish them.

It is inappropriate to compare Thailand to any of the countries you cited because Thailand isn't at their respective stage of development. This is not a slur. but a reflection of the economic reality. For example, Norway has the benefit of deriving almost 30 of its GDP from petroleum. It also has a very small population.

Thailand needs a reliable tax collection system in place first. It needs integrity in the spending process to ensure the monies intended to be spent on social programs are spent on just that. Let it first deliver on basic health care and education first. Let it foster child development and ensure that there is no malnutrition in rural areas. Ensure that workers have a liveable wage. Master these steps in the development process before trying to take on the more difficult goal of a comprehensive social services program.

[LomSak27]

Merdian007 posted

I guess that Abhisit wants to let the red shirts know that he is at least thinking about the poor in Issan ... This makes me feel that it is just being said to bump up opinion, rather than having any basis in reality.

Yes that would be the logical explanation.

Given the date of implementation - given the democratic party of Thailand has traditionally been vehemently opposed to do anything for Thailands rural poor, with the occasional... 'can't they be happy with subsistence' thrown in, I doubt they are going to flip 180 degrees. More like Abhisit advisors are working hard on defanging those populist policies of yep you guessed, Thaksin. Talk is cheap.

[lioness]

Please provide an example of any socialist experiment that has worked. Handouts is never the way to go, it is allowing people the freedom to excel that is. Don't exchange a broken system with another. Like fixing a broken leg by starting to bash the other one...

Australia.

The Higher Education Contributions Scheme: an interest free loan for students to go to university. It gets paid back when you go to work, automatically, out of your pay. But only if you earn enough. If not, you never pay it back. Allows us to train people like teachers, nurses etc who do important - but low paid jobs - for the rest of society, unincumbered by a student debt: Check it out

Thailand has a similar scheme in place now.

[soundman]

Basic health care is allready free.

I recently took my son to get a series of rabies shots after a cat attacked him.

First visit - 545B (no gold card).

Subsequently applied for card and the newx two visits have been free.

Same for wife who was bitten by something very poisonous a few months ago.

All emergency treatment free, all medicines free, bandages, doctors fees, nurse fees - free.

[SantiSuk]

I was reminded of the way a Thai welfare state operates today by a conversation with my TW yesterday, as we passed the local secondary school.

TW: Very few children going there now teelak

Me: Why is that - same reason Pookee, Kat and NongPaeng (family kids) go to the big school in Kantaralak?

TW: Yes - everybody go Kantaralak now. This school no good. Teachers no good.

Me: Why does the village not do anything/talk to school?

TW: Teelak - school boss get big money from government but him use for buy land himself and big car

Me: That's corruption.

TW: Yes teelak

Me: Why village boss not do anything? Why village not do anything?

TW: Mye pen lai teelak

Anybody think the welfare state will work? Thais need to solve the mye pen lai and corruption problem first and maybe they will find more distributable wealth already within the system.

I feel a campaign coming on. What chance do you give me to influence a village, while avoiding being shot? With a 1 month old baby I've got a small number of years to work on it. Softly softly I think

[londonthai]

pie in the sky - looks for me more like an early start to the general election, than a political will.

How do you know it's "pie in the sky" when there are absolutely no specifics listed in the article?

that's because there is very little in the article, I know it's just empty promises, part of a political game before the election - if the party was commited to this cause, they would set up a commette and write up some analisys what, why, how and when, they would discuss it widely within the party and tried to find political allies outside (like trade unions or some social movements and organisations).

They have failed to do so, so it's not more than "thai government aims at flying spaceship to the Moon by 2017".

as to "socialist experiments" they have never worked, because they have never been tried yet - socialism is a socio-economic system after capitalism and is contradictory to the principle of capitalist production for profit. Contradictory systems can't co-exist - socialism will replace capitalism globally, can't be just in one country or "experiment".

[moe666]

Thailand already has a social welfare system, it's called marry you daughters off to Falangs.

[jayboy]

Yes: The example of a Socialist experiment that has worked:is the NHS in the UK,BEEN AROUND FOR 60 YEARS +,and is still helping the poor who cant afford private health care. Not a perfect system and yes there are waiting lists,they are the largest employers in the UK (over a million staff ) no doubt some on this site will be happy to run it down,but think before you do. If you had a serious illness would you go home to the NHS? or stay in Thailand and go bust being ripped of by the Hospitals here???? I for one know what choice I would make!

I would definitely stay in Thailand if I had a serious illness or needed major surgery.But though Thai doctors are generally first class, careful homework needs to be done.

As to the UK NHS I am a supporter and think the concept is a noble one.However huge reforms are needed not least a reasonable level of payment by people able to afford a financial contribution.There is often a level of sloppiness in NHS patient care that's wholly unacceptable.The Labour government has invested massive sums but the cost-benefit seems uncertain.I believe David Cameron should be given the chance to shake the whole NHS up and make it much more responsive to patients needs.But overall the positive aspects easily outweigh the negative and it represents a compassion for the weak and vulnerable that seems lacking among say the American right wing

[hammered]

Yes: The example of a Socialist experiment that has worked:is the NHS in the UK,BEEN AROUND FOR 60 YEARS +,and is still helping the poor who cant afford private health care. Not a perfect system and yes there are waiting lists,they are the largest employers in the UK (over a million staff ) no doubt some on this site will be happy to run it down,but think before you do. If you had a serious illness would you go home to the NHS? or stay in Thailand and go bust being ripped of by the Hospitals here???? I for one know what choice I would make!

I would definitely stay in Thailand if I had a serious illness or needed major surgery.But though Thai doctors are generally first class, careful homework needs to be done.

As to the UK NHS I am a supporter and think the concept is a noble one.However huge reforms are needed not least a reasonable level of payment by people able to afford a financial contribution.There is often a level of sloppiness in NHS patient care that's wholly unacceptable.The Labour government has invested massive sums but the cost-benefit seems uncertain.I believe David Cameron should be given the chance to shake the whole NHS up and make it much more responsive to patients needs.But overall the positive aspects easily outweigh the negative and it represents a compassion for the weak and vulnerable that seems lacking among say the American right wing

The problem with the NHS and the whole UK social welfare system is that in its inception it was set up so the working generation paid for the previous generation and not for themsleves (plus a few problems like techniology and aging populations) One of the ironies or contradcitons of democracy is that it doesnt allow for investment for the future without some instant payback or at least it is impossible for a government to even dare trying that.

Thailand should learn from some of the problems the UK experienced and also learn from the US problems as seen now where the cheapest possible option for complete coverage cannot be considered because it is thought to be socialist and anti-American. Oddly enough if done right Thailand has an opportunity to do better than others just by looking at the errors. Unfortunately we have to finish the little power play among those who consider the country to be their own personal plaything.

[samran]

Samran, I do not argue with the benefits of a responsible and comprehensive social support systems. Education, health care, proper pensions etc. all support the development of a robust nation. Unfortunately, when people do not have the planning and infrastructure in place, the hoped for social programs cannot be implemented. All of the countries you cite had the advantage of years of preparation and a phase in. There was efficient and good government in place, there was an existing infrastructure of education and healthcare and all that good stuff upon which to build. Thailand's government is talking of pie in the sky without any consideration given to setting the priorities and how to accomplish them.

It is inappropriate to compare Thailand to any of the countries you cited because Thailand isn't at their respective stage of development. This is not a slur. but a reflection of the economic reality. For example, Norway has the benefit of deriving almost 30 of its GDP from petroleum. It also has a very small population.

Thailand needs a reliable tax collection system in place first. It needs integrity in the spending process to ensure the monies intended to be spent on social programs are spent on just that. Let it first deliver on basic health care and education first. Let it foster child development and ensure that there is no malnutrition in rural areas. Ensure that workers have a liveable wage. Master these steps in the development process before trying to take on the more difficult goal of a comprehensive social services program.

I agree about the tax system. And while, as someone said, tax evasion is a national pass time, it is becoming less so. The tax department is actually quite efficient these days...what remains is broadening the tax base. That will come.

As for comparing to other countries...well someone asked to show some examples of successful 'socialist' systems, so I did.

i still think it is fair to compare though as these systems were introduced decades ago, when real wealth was alot less than it is now. You have to start someone.

I actually think that Thailand's welfare system is pretty good, and what this article is actually all about is about creating a comprehensive system, for all.

A vast majority of Thai workers, via their SS payments, have access to a pretty robust social security system. From this you get unemployement benefits, child benefits, hospital care etc etc. Of course, it is without the bells and whisltes you get it in the west, but it works. A solid performer.

What remains is to extend these benefits to those who fall outside this system. It isn't as an extensive job as people think. Being a beneficary of child payments, health benefits etc...the system, while I bit clunky, works pretty well.

[TAWP]

Please provide an example of any socialist experiment that has worked. Handouts is never the way to go, it is allowing people the freedom to excel that is. Don't exchange a broken system with another. Like fixing a broken leg by starting to bash the other one...

Examples of socialist experiments that have worked: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, UK, and Canada. Socialized education and health care are the building blocks for the market and competition to excel. Without socialized education and health care, the divide between the working class and the elite expands to the point where the elite have an unfair advantage at birth. Socialism in the form of education and health allows for equal opportunity and greater competition which creates greater innovation and increases the standards of living. The benefits of capitalism work best when there is a strong system of entitlements in place to allow for increased competition. We do not need pure capitalism or pure socialism, but markets to function in conjunction with socialistic programs that allow all people to start on an equal level.

Fail - I am from Sweden and it is NOT an example of successful socialist experiment.

More organized theft (taxes) to create handouts, perfect...another country going down the socialist drain of ruin.

Perhaps you should ask the poster snowflake just how miserable life is for the Norskes, or the neighboring Svenskes, or any of the other Northern European folks who enjoy a dose of socialism mixed in with their capitalism. And it is not simply oil revenue that allows this dose of socialism as another poster opined, it is the vision and the willingness to see that a progressive tax system works in everyone's interest. One can still become very wealthy in those ruinous socialized countries (they are not really socialist in the way that ignorant Americans use the term), but there are limits placed upon extreme wealth so as to maintain a stable and relatively happy society, a goal still shared by many wealthy Europeans yet a goal now discarded by many in that isolated world of the USA.

Thailand's politicians should be applauded for even mentioning this lofty goal, even if implementation is but a pipe dream and currently it is perhaps a mere political ploy. But at least it gets the concept out there.

I did ask myself directly and the reply I received was indeed that handouts are not the proper way to go. Many of us did or do not enjoy the socialism that is 'mixed' with the capitalism.

[Alwaysright]

A lofty aspiration long overdue...

If they had welfare nobody would work.

[TAWP]

Australia.

/.../

Ah yes, we have freedom of speech, a robust democracy which is arguably less captured by big business, than say the US. And an economy where the people have the 'freedom to excel'.

Surely you posted this in jest? Australia is one of the leading western nations in strangling freedom of speech and even making it illegal to surf to blacklisted (not illegal) pages online while pushing the concept of having basically a great firewall inspired by China to keep some content 'out'.

A front-runner, indeed, but towards what?

[samran]

Australia.

/.../

Ah yes, we have freedom of speech, a robust democracy which is arguably less captured by big business, than say the US. And an economy where the people have the 'freedom to excel'.

Surely you posted this in jest? Australia is one of the leading western nations in strangling freedom of speech and even making it illegal to surf to blacklisted (not illegal) pages online while pushing the concept of having basically a great firewall inspired by China to keep some content 'out'.

A front-runner, indeed, but towards what?

have you watched our parliament?

As for the great firewall, I think you are being over dramatic. Overenthusiastic pollies trying to block legit nasties, (and not doing it very well), yes.

China like blocks, no.

What about the rest of my post?

[BSJ]

I despise socialism, and it will be the cause of many countries downfall in the future.

I do believe in basic rights for citizen's if the government applies taxes to income and purchases.

The right to receive medical attention in a public hospital at minimal cost.

The right to attend schools and colleges at minimal cost.

The right to pay only a minimum amount of taxes.

plus the usual rights: free to choose religion, have a jury trial if charged with a felony, to marry who ever you like, to defend your family and property from attackers, etc

[phetaroi]

pie in the sky - looks for me more like an early start to the general election, than a political will.

How do you know it's "pie in the sky" when there are absolutely no specifics listed in the article?

that's because there is very little in the article, I know it's just empty promises, part of a political game before the election - if the party was commited to this cause, they would set up a commette and write up some analisys what, why, how and when, they would discuss it widely within the party and tried to find political allies outside (like trade unions or some social movements and organisations).

They have failed to do so, so it's not more than "thai government aims at flying spaceship to the Moon by 2017".

as to "socialist experiments" they have never worked, because they have never been tried yet - socialism is a socio-economic system after capitalism and is contradictory to the principle of capitalist production for profit. Contradictory systems can't co-exist - socialism will replace capitalism globally, can't be just in one country or "experiment".

You're way off on the wrong track here on several notes.

First, the fact that the online article is so short only means that the online article is short...as are most of the online articles. Usually the same article in the print edition will be much longer with somewhat more detail.

Second, yes, it may be a political game. But on the other hand, they are at the beginning of the process, not the middle or even end, so we have no idea if they will or won't do things that lead to more analysis or wider discussions, or expanding the support base, or whatever. They have an opening discussing and resolve to move toward something, but you think after an opening discussion they should have a finished product.

Third, you are trying to place it all under the umbrella of socialism versus capitalism...etc. This leads me to think you may be an ideologue.

You seem to think that when a government is at the beginning of a road they should also be at the end of the journey.

While I am skeptical, you are just a knee-jerk naysayer with no substantive information about the question at issue. I think your judgments would be more worthwhile if you learn more about it than in covered in a 50-some word news blurb.

[rfukata]

Paid for how? Tax evasion is a national sport here.

Exactly true

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

I don't ever see the Thai government setting up a welfare state. As it stands, they have social security and medical. The infrastructure and economic demands are too great to start up any new social benefit programs. At best, you will see some Thaksin-inspired populist money giveaways in the rural provinces, but nothing substantial.