Good Article

[dickie58]

Richard, my gut feeling says take your house off the market until the new condos are complete. Any prospective buyer is simply being scared off by such a high asking price given the condition of the immediate surrounding area. After completion of said highrise, stick the sign back on the gate after re appaising fair market value. With a completed (and its going up fast) condo block, better chance to attract genuine house purchasers.

Richard, my advice is to forget all local agents and put your home for sale in some international websites (escape artist and viviun). take your time, work out a detailed description and add two dozen professional pictures. don't hold back explaining legal hurdles as far as foreign landownership is concerned! the ads cost peanuts (used to be a few hundred dollars for a year). in 2004 i sold my home in Florida (nearly identical to the one in Pattaya) for 60% more than some local appraisers and realtors told me i can get and i sold it within six weeks, cash down at closing, no stupid delays waiting for the buyer to obtain a mortgage.

that i did not really make a single penny of profit after 10 years goes without saying. most potential buyers had no bloody idea what i was offering at what price because they were too ignorant to understand.

Thanks for your advice, i already have it listed on a number of web sites, including some MLS sites within Thailand & the UK. But will take a look at those sites you mention above.

Also have it advertised in the Ptty Mail, & Pattaya Today, & prevoiusly had it in the Farang German paper, & Pattaya people.

It's not through the lack of trying!!

[Benjie]

If yours isn't selling after so long then it's not priced at fair 'market value'.

The price is what someone who is willing to sell the property will take and someone who is willing to buy the property will pay.

Obviously the 2nd part of that equation isn't working so you need to adjust the 1st.

[Naam]

It's not through the lack of trying!!

i still recommend you go "international". 25mm Baht seems to be a lot of money for a home in Thailand (for somebody who lives here). seen from the perspective of other countries it is peanuts! i couldn't get a decent townhouse for € 550k in a posh area of Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg or Düsseldorf.

whenever i told visiting european friends who saw my house for the first time what the total cost was they thought i was pulling a fast one. in the meantime two of them sold their "shacks" in Germany, each for much more than 25mm Baht, one bought a home and one is still building his home in Pattaya. and there is a bunch more planning to come as there are only 337 days left till the potential exchange of information between banks in €U-countries and their relevant taxmen.

[eljeque]

Dickie58, would the configuration of your land take a small condo? If so it might be worth trying to sell the future development potential of the house and land. Or is that priced in already?

Yes it would take a condo, & people have conseidered this, but they only want to give me the land value, i can see where there coming from.

But i'm selling the house in the package as well, I'm entitled to get the value of that as well?

Dickie58,

Sharecropper was suggesting that the value of your land may be worth more to a condo builder than the value of your house to a house buyer.

approx 3/4 of a rai ther may be worth 3/4 of 30 million baht. The cost of house removal is not that high, and the removers would re-sell the doors, windows, kitchen, electric box, wires, bathroom toilets, sinks, and the list goes on, plus the value of all of the steel rebar. Check with any condo builders which may be neighbors.

[dickie58]

Dickie58, would the configuration of your land take a small condo? If so it might be worth trying to sell the future development potential of the house and land. Or is that priced in already?

Yes it would take a condo, & people have conseidered this, but they only want to give me the land value, i can see where there coming from.

But i'm selling the house in the package as well, I'm entitled to get the value of that as well?

Dickie58,

Sharecropper was suggesting that the value of your land may be worth more to a condo builder than the value of your house to a house buyer.

approx 3/4 of a rai ther may be worth 3/4 of 30 million baht. The cost of house removal is not that high, and the removers would re-sell the doors, windows, kitchen, electric box, wires, bathroom toilets, sinks, and the list goes on, plus the value of all of the steel rebar. Check with any condo builders which may be neighbors.

Good point & I have already been suggested that.

I contacted 3 of the big condo developers in Ptty couple of weeks regarding this matter, only 1 replied & he wasn't intrested, as well as making huge profits the developers also want the land for peanuts!!

They want everything there own way?

1 of the developers has recently bought a piece of land 2 or 3 plots behind me, slightly bigger than mine, but still just under 1 rai, it was advertised for 18 milion bht, no idea what they paid for it?

Nearest electric & city water 200 metres away, & needs at least 1 metre of landfill to take it level with the rd?

[dickie58]

Would some of the Pattaya real estate agents who are members on Thai visa, like to comment on the current state of the market in Ptty?

Maybe they could also tell us what is selling in Ptty currently, & what isn't?

I'm just a mere mortal, there the experts!!!

I see Craig from Paragon properties has just been arrested:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Founding-Par...63#entry3301263

Edited January 28, 2010 by dickie58

[basjke]

One of the local developers showed me some 2 bedroom houses on 50tw of land yesterday, living space approx 100sqm, includes small pool, back of Jomtein behind imigration, there asking 7.9 pre built prices, just starting building them, he says when there built they go up 1 milion.

The big 4 bedroom houses on that village on 200tw are being sold for 22 milion ++

Another agent has told me of some other 3 bed houses built near Jomtein complex, 54tw land, 2 storey, nice pool, 9.6 includes furniture, i guess the internal living space might be around 200sqm, photos i've seen look nice?

Those 2 make mine sound like a bargain?

That must have been between making 2 sales contracts that he had a spare minute to tell you the prices I assume.

[Pakboong]

One of the local developers showed me some 2 bedroom houses on 50tw of land yesterday, living space approx 100sqm, includes small pool, back of Jomtein behind imigration, there asking 7.9 pre built prices, just starting building them, he says when there built they go up 1 milion.

The big 4 bedroom houses on that village on 200tw are being sold for 22 milion ++

Another agent has told me of some other 3 bed houses built near Jomtein complex, 54tw land, 2 storey, nice pool, 9.6 includes furniture, i guess the internal living space might be around 200sqm, photos i've seen look nice?

Those 2 make mine sound like a bargain?

That must have been between making 2 sales contracts that he had a spare minute to tell you the prices I assume.

The sun does always seem be shining at the real estate office.

[Pakboong]

Dickie58, would the configuration of your land take a small condo? If so it might be worth trying to sell the future development potential of the house and land. Or is that priced in already?

Yes it would take a condo, & people have conseidered this, but they only want to give me the land value, i can see where there coming from.

But i'm selling the house in the package as well, I'm entitled to get the value of that as well?

Most of us have never had to develp a pricing strategy that anticipates a falling knife type drop. Pretending there is no storm, will not help you sell your house.

As i have already said i would take an offer on my place, for a cash deal would probably accept a 20% reduction on the asking price:

http://classifieds.thaivisa.com/?act=show_...4&aid=28866

No silly offers pleae, PM me if you have a sensible offer

Dickie, I know this is not the kind of stuff you want to hear but I will use an example provided in this forum a while back. A shop house in Jomtien/Pattaya was priced at about 1.4 million at the beginning of the bubble. At the top of the bubble these same shop houses were priced at 4 million. The price index is about to drop well below the beginning of the bubble index so how can shop houses still sell for 4 million? The proper price for a shop house should be near 1.4 without even taking the index for inflation in to consideration. When considering the fact that they are way over built, the 1.4 million seems high. When prices drop back to correct levels, buyers will come out of the wood work.

[Tejas]

When prices drop back to correct levels, buyers will come out of the wood work.

Maybe.......maybe not. But surely there will be more buyers then.

As an aside, one way of determining the "market" is to keep an eye out for real estate shop closures.

Are many closing shop?

New ones opening up?

3-4 years ago it seemed like you could not walk 20 meters without seeing three or four shops.

[sharecropper]

When prices drop back to correct levels, buyers will come out of the wood work.

Maybe.......maybe not. But surely there will be more buyers then.

As an aside, one way of determining the "market" is to keep an eye out for real estate shop closures.

Are many closing shop?

New ones opening up?

3-4 years ago it seemed like you could not walk 20 meters without seeing three or four shops.

Generally I agree with you, but real estate agencies are great way to launder money through a business (obviously not all of them), so sometimes their presence may not give the full economic picture.

Not many have closed coming up to high season, some one man bands in Jomtien have, and many more, even "well-known names" are on life support.

This year will see a rash of closures.

[Thaifan2]

They are still building shop houses in Jomtien in far more numbers than houses at 3.5 M baht up and they seem to be selling .

[dickie58]

In the village oposite my house about 4 or 5 years ago they were selling land at 100,000 bht tw, crazy price, over the last 6 months, they recently sold a few of the remaining land plots, they were NOW being advertised at 50,000 bht tw, my mate made an offer on 4 of them close to that figure & they said no, 4 have recently been sold to someone else, so something around 48,000 bht tw i would suggest?

I also know of a nice house on the same village, smaller land than mine, seller wants 29 milion bht net

There are also some smaller 1 bedroom houses with private pools currently for sale for around 7 milion bht, there not selling either?

& yes the village has a huge 8 storey condo being built (still in early stages of construction) the other side of the perimter wall, so all houses in there will be overlooked.

The house in there right on the beach is also meant to be for sale, huge, i've heard figures of 100 milion bht +, mentioned, meant to be fantastic from what i've been told.

I'm sure some of the smaller newer real estate agents will shut up shop this year, but some of the others who have been here for years are currently opening new offices, so things can't be that bad.

My opoinon for what it's worth is that people spending anymore than 10 milion bht are just not around, or if they are around there not spending?

Some of the Russians are still buying from what i gather, but spending 5 to 7 milion on general from what i've been told.

The Soi behind me, Soi Cozy beach the hotels in that Soi are very popular with the Russians, but the shops, restaurants in that Soi are still complaning that there not spending money there.

Edited January 29, 2010 by dickie58

[dickie58]

They are still building shop houses in Jomtien in far more numbers than houses at 3.5 M baht up and they seem to be selling .

My Thai x-wife bought a new shophouse in Naklua, when she bought late last year it was just a shell, no tiles or bathrooms, nothing, cost her 2 milion bht.

There must be 20 new shell shophouses in her Soi, about 4 are sold/occupied, & they look Ok & a nice Soi

[thaimate]

I have a good friend who is an agent ,he says the market has picked up for condos,but the housing market is dead ,as it has been for a long time . it seems that many houses in the 1 to 2 million bracket get sold to Thais but not through agents ,the builders just sell them onsite.

we have rented for 4 years ,every so often we go for a drive around the estates we originally looked at ,some of the properties we looked at all those years ago are still empty,still for sale or rent,that was in the 5 mill for sale /30 thousand baht a month to rent range , it always amuses me that one property that we liked wouldnt accept our rental offer ,we were within a few thousand baht a month ,its still for rent ,i wonder if the owners are still kicking themselves as i had offered to sign for 2 years minimum .

anyway well happy with the house we rented just resigned.

[CGW]

My opoinon for what it's worth is that people spending anymore than 10 milion bht are just not around, or if they are around there not spending?

Some of the Russians are still buying from what i gather, but spending 5 to 7 milion on general from what i've been told.

This is what I was told, pretty much word for word..........

[Pakboong]

They are still building shop houses in Jomtien in far more numbers than houses at 3.5 M baht up and they seem to be selling .

More rented than sold I would think.

[LennyW]

They are still building shop houses in Jomtien in far more numbers than houses at 3.5 M baht up and they seem to be selling .

More rented than sold I would think.

Mostly sold you will find, it is very easy for a Thai national to raise finance against a shophouse for some reason.

That is why you see so many of them empty, the owners dont care if they are used or rented out as long as they have their loan!!

[basjke]

They are still building shop houses in Jomtien in far more numbers than houses at 3.5 M baht up and they seem to be selling .

More rented than sold I would think.

Mostly sold you will find, it is very easy for a Thai national to raise finance against a shophouse for some reason.

That is why you see so many of them empty, the owners dont care if they are used or rented out as long as they have their loan!!

And that is also the problem here in Thailand.If the banks had to throw on the market the properties which they own due to the owners not paying their loan the market would take a crash whereby 1997 would look peanuts.

Anyway there will come a day that they will be forced to do it.Trees never grow into heaven,even though thais are thinking that.

[Laganside]

The property market is based on sentiment as much as any other economic factor.

People generally believe what they want to believe and reality is often obscured by foolish optimism.

Savills are simply doing what any other vested interest would try to do and that is to talk up the market.

Frankly, I wouldn't have thought anyone with even a modicum of sophistication would fall for that vacuous tosh but like they say there's one born every minute and when one sucker bites others are bound to follow.

Property practically everywhere else in the world, as a speculative investment, is a busted market and deservedly so. It's former value was utterly disconnected from previous ratios of income to loan and a repetition of the boom is extremely unlikely not least because the banks' recklessness in fuelling the madness is unlikely to be supported again by governments to come.

Get used to the reality chaps and don't take any notice of Britain as a current model with it's prevailing nonsense. Any talk of the recession being over is delusionary and the property market there, now that quantitative easing is soon to cease, will collapse further

Edited January 29, 2010 by Laganside

[Tarqin]

Well as to the article, Captain Sensibles advice for sensible investing is never take buying advice from someone trying to sell you something.

As for whether the Pattaya property market is heading up or down, if you can't work that out for yourself then I have some magic beans I can sell you at only 20 million baht a pop...

[Laganside]

but the UK is different market entirely, limited supply and a much smaller land mass.

Oh dear, that old chestnut again.

There is no limited supply as such in any part of the market. What there may be is a shortage of properties priced at a level supported by the market and that is a whole different ball game.

Currently, the UK is a distorted market place in which the folly of the unsupportable boom is still being masked by a government continuing to socialise bad debts in the vain hope a stupid electorate will vote for them again this May.

That of course will not happen and consequential swingeing cuts in public expenditure means the recent phoney recession will very soon begin to truly bite. Expect more unemployment and further falling house prices.

The impact of all this on Thailand is a microcosm of the world recession and its effects. Less disposible income, a devalued currency and falling asset prices experienced by Brits means fewer buyers in Pattaya, Hua Hin, Samui etc.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Laganside

[jb4446]

but the UK is different market entirely, limited supply and a much smaller land mass.

Oh dear, that old chestnut again.

There is no limited supply as such in any part of the market. What there may be is a shortage of properties priced at a level supported by the market and that is a whole different ball game.

Currently, the UK is a distorted market place in which the folly of the unsupportable boom is still being masked by a government continuing to socialise bad debts in the vain hope a stupid electorate will vote for them again this May.

That of course will not happen and consequential swingeing cuts in public expenditure means the recent phoney recession will very soon begin to truly bite. Expect more unemployment and further falling house prices.

The impact of all this on Thailand is a microcosm of the world recession and its effects. Less disposible income, a devalued currency and falling asset prices experienced by Brits means fewer buyers in Pattaya, Hua Hin, Samui etc.

Too many big words here,does this mean Thailands house bubble is kaput?.

[jb4446]

Here's a new spin on trying to sell a property.I rang after a property which was recently advertised,only to be told it had been sold that day at more than the advertised price. OK I said but the guy said we have many more for sale and he was a realtor, Colliers ,better be quick he stated , there all going to be snapped up OH YEAH!!!

[dickie58]

According to this report from "The Nation", property prices in Thailand will be going up this year:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010/01/25...ss_30121036.php

Hopefully the mods will let this link stay?

Just seen on another Thai News web site, US growth was + 5.7% in last quarter of Q4 2009.

No point in putting the link as it would only be removed!!

This might help the Thai economy & us, with tourists from the US travelling more again, & some even investing in holiday homes?

Edited January 29, 2010 by dickie58

[sharecropper]

but the UK is different market entirely, limited supply and a much smaller land mass.

Oh dear, that old chestnut again.

There is no limited supply as such in any part of the market. What there may be is a shortage of properties priced at a level supported by the market and that is a whole different ball game.

Currently, the UK is a distorted market place in which the folly of the unsupportable boom is still being masked by a government continuing to socialise bad debts in the vain hope a stupid electorate will vote for them again this May.

That of course will not happen and consequential swingeing cuts in public expenditure means the recent phoney recession will very soon begin to truly bite. Expect more unemployment and further falling house prices.

The impact of all this on Thailand is a microcosm of the world recession and its effects. Less disposible income, a devalued currency and falling asset prices experienced by Brits means fewer buyers in Pattaya, Hua Hin, Samui etc.

Hmm. I sold a flat in Spitalfelds at my asking price 2 weeks ago, and have another one under offer, so I think the UK market isn't as bad as people are making out, or at least not all of it is in the toilet.

[PattayaParent]

Currently, the UK is a distorted market place in which the folly of the unsupportable boom is still being masked by a government continuing to socialise bad debts in the vain hope a stupid electorate will vote for them again this May.

That of course will not happen and consequential swingeing cuts in public expenditure means the recent phoney recession will very soon begin to truly bite. Expect more unemployment and further falling house prices.

So you're predicting that a new government (presumably the Conservative Party) will make swingeing (sic) cuts in public expenditure and make themselves immediately hugely unpopular in what is a recession?

[chiang mai]

but the UK is different market entirely, limited supply and a much smaller land mass.

Oh dear, that old chestnut again.

There is no limited supply as such in any part of the market. What there may be is a shortage of properties priced at a level supported by the market and that is a whole different ball game.

Currently, the UK is a distorted market place in which the folly of the unsupportable boom is still being masked by a government continuing to socialise bad debts in the vain hope a stupid electorate will vote for them again this May.

That of course will not happen and consequential swingeing cuts in public expenditure means the recent phoney recession will very soon begin to truly bite. Expect more unemployment and further falling house prices.

The impact of all this on Thailand is a microcosm of the world recession and its effects. Less disposible income, a devalued currency and falling asset prices experienced by Brits means fewer buyers in Pattaya, Hua Hin, Samui etc.

Hmm. I sold a flat in Spitalfelds at my asking price 2 weeks ago, and have another one under offer, so I think the UK market isn't as bad as people are making out, or at least not all of it is in the toilet.

I agree, the UK property market at this moment is very buoyant and it has been so since at least the middle of 2009, regrettably for me, the rest of this year however is likely to change matters so your timing was pretty good I reckon.

[chiang mai]

Currently, the UK is a distorted market place in which the folly of the unsupportable boom is still being masked by a government continuing to socialise bad debts in the vain hope a stupid electorate will vote for them again this May.

That of course will not happen and consequential swingeing cuts in public expenditure means the recent phoney recession will very soon begin to truly bite. Expect more unemployment and further falling house prices.

So you're predicting that a new government (presumably the Conservative Party) will make swingeing (sic) cuts in public expenditure and make themselves immediately hugely unpopular in what is a recession?

Further falls in house prices are, I'm afraid to say, inevitable, it's just a question of timescales.

[Laganside]

So you're predicting that a new government (presumably the Conservative Party) will make swingeing (sic) cuts in public expenditure and make themselves immediately hugely unpopular in what is a recession?

Your " sic " is as redundant as your question.

Popularity has nothing to do with it. NuLabour and the idiot Clown are pretending there wont be any cuts and the Tories are saying there will be but will not specify how much. Either way, the markets expect once the election is over there will be at least 10% cuts each year for at least 3 years. No capital spend, more redundancies, retail and construction to wither and silly service crap no one needed to evaporate. The pus has to be excised and that means property is going nowhere but South. The future is shares, like it always was.

Only an idiot would pay the asking price but, then, Britain has possibly the greatest concentration of the economically illiterate

one could hope to find in one place. How else could one explain the Labour Party?