French Man Arrested For Allegedly Offering Underage Sex Service In Pattaya

[Jingthing]

technically, until 20 years old (which is the age of majority, not to be confused with the age of consent), without the parent's consent

Interesting in theory. However, do you reckon there has ever been even one case of such a complaint/prosecution when the 18 or 19 year old was met at a prostitution establishment? I doubt it has ever happened.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

technically, until 20 years old (which is the age of majority, not to be confused with the age of consent), without the parent's consent

Interesting in theory. However, do you reckon there has ever been even one case of such a complaint/prosecution when the 18 or 19 year old was met at a prostitution establishment? I doubt it has even happened.

Technically, most of the establishments you mention are also illegal, even if they are never shut down, fined, etc. There are only a small handful of actual legal prostitution venues in the country, licensed waaaay long ago- probably related to GI entertainment. Prostitution itself is technically illegal in most cases. And yes, sex without the parents' consent is illegal for under-20 yo's. In fact, sex itself is not necessary- there is a wide-ranging law allowing for prosecution for reason of 'corrupting a [statutory] minor by transportation to a disreputable venue.' Legally, this would imply that simply entering a short-term hotel with a 19yo could be prosecuted, no matter what happened.

Even if these things are rarely prosecuted, it's still the law- I would imagine most of the cases which could potentially be prosecuted turn into 'under-the-table' fines to the police. Being aware of these things is surely better than pretending they aren't important, right?

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

Oh and I have never been with any person in a bar.

<snip>

Me neither - far too public. Much better to take them home.

[manarak]

พระราชบัญญัติ

ป้องกันและปราบปรามการค้าประเวณี

พ.ศ. ๒๕๓๙

...

> มาตรา ๕ ผู้ใดเข้าติดต่อ ชักชวน แนะนำตัว ติดตาม หรือรบเร้าบุคคลตามถนนหรือสาธารณสถาน หรือกระทำการดังกล่าวในที่อื่นใด เพื่อการค้าประเวณีอันเป็นการเปิดเผยและน่าอับอายหรือเป็นที่เดือนร้อนรำคาญ แก่สาธารณชน (prosecutes freelance prostitutes) ต้องระวางโทษปรับไม่เกินหนึ่งพันบาท

From reliable source, I still don't see where the laws leave any convenient gap to justify prostitution.

Source: National Operation Centre on Prevention and Suppression of Human Trafficking

http://www.notforsale.in.th/autopagev4/sho...=3&TopicPk=

Yes, that's the 1996 Law in Thai.

I think precise translation of article 5 is important.

In the english version, the law bans open solicitation but not paid sex in itself. Can someone please very precisely translate article 5?

[manarak]

technically, until 20 years old (which is the age of majority, not to be confused with the age of consent), without the parent's consent

Interesting in theory. However, do you reckon there has ever been even one case of such a complaint/prosecution when the 18 or 19 year old was met at a prostitution establishment? I doubt it has even happened.

Technically, most of the establishments you mention are also illegal, even if they are never shut down, fined, etc. There are only a small handful of actual legal prostitution venues in the country, licensed waaaay long ago- probably related to GI entertainment. Prostitution itself is technically illegal in most cases. And yes, sex without the parents' consent is illegal for under-20 yo's. In fact, sex itself is not necessary- there is a wide-ranging law allowing for prosecution for reason of 'corrupting a [statutory] minor by transportation to a disreputable venue.' Legally, this would imply that simply entering a short-term hotel with a 19yo could be prosecuted, no matter what happened.

Even if these things are rarely prosecuted, it's still the law- I would imagine most of the cases which could potentially be prosecuted turn into 'under-the-table' fines to the police. Being aware of these things is surely better than pretending they aren't important, right?

Regarding consensual sex: both the penal code and the 1996 law on prostitution only contain provisions for people under 18 years.

Can you please back up your statement with references to actual articles of positive Law, without mixing up sex and the visit to "disreputable venues"?

[Ijustwannateach]

Too many of the wrong kinds of things are being said on this thread. I am closing it temporarily for major revision, and chances are it will remain closed. Manarak, I am no lawyer and you are welcome to consult one yourself, but what I have stated is my own understanding of the law having discussed it with a lawyer before, having seen so many bizarre renditions of the law stated by foreigners on forums. Specifically, your reference to 18 as the age of consent is correct; however ALL behaviour by minors (persons under 20) is subject to parental approval as well.

[george]

Topic has been reopened after review.

[markokang]

Not defending the bar owners who do this. I would love to see it wiped out. I am questioning the scapegoating ONLY of gay establishments. That seems political, and it stinks.

FACT: In Chon Buri (and I imagine ANY place in Thailand) you can get underage girls from Karaoke bars! from 14 to 18(possibly younger). But these are THAI establishments and almost NEVER frequented by foreigners. No crackdowns or arrests there! Some are there to pay of parents debts, or there own debts, some choose to work there but they are still underage. They are frequented by Thais only and sometimes by local authorities: and not to arrest anyone but to use the service!

ANY day of the week the police could go there and arrest people and get the girls out BUT... they don't.... why? A hundred answers to that question!

Why too, are there children in servitude on the streets of Bangkok selling flowers or begging!? This is illegal and comes under the newly updated law (1 year ago) of "Human Trafficking". Some of these children are sold into servitude or helping to pay off parents debts, others literally bought as slaves. They are picked up and dropped off by gangs (or organized crime groups)... in front of everyone's eyes on Sukhumvit road! never an arrest or story in the news about these crimes!

So much going on here but actually foreigners are a tiny tiny part of it. Its all run by and used by Thais.... no arrests! no news! I know a 14 year old girl who was given in marriage to a Thai man in my sisters home town of Rayong! The things that go on in Thailand right under all your noses is shocking. And I'm sure there is a lot more sick stuff that even I find hard to believe: Rumors and stories I've heard but they are less provable.... if there was a really good reporter out there who could leave the country after the story was published (that's if the papers would publish it) they could be famous and help save a lot of other victims or horrendous crimes in Thailand!

I agree this story has a political edge to it and only happened because of the FBI's complaint! Otherwise is business as usual in Thailand!

[kikoman]

Pedophile is against the law (period) It dose not matter who is doing it and for what reason.

It is demeaning to all gays, for some on this forum to attempt to take a position on the high ground or grey areas on this subject.

There is no high ground ! All who participate in these actions should be arrested and charged for those actions.

All who attempt to justify these action by trying to find grey areas in Thailand's laws, setting themselves up as if they were the experts, instead of the laws of our host country Thailand.

Are only showing that they condom, and do not care about the law enforcement against sex slavery.

It is not a crime to be gay, It is not Homophobia for the law to take action against such persons, who will be entitled to their day in court.

It is not only a gay issue ,as it also involves both genders, which makes Pedophile a crime for all .

Cheers

Edited January 28, 2010 by kikoman

[coalminer]

Pedophile is against the law (period) It dose not matter who is doing it and for what reason.

I think that a lot of people are "barking against the wrong tree".

Whilst Pedophile activities are illegal in Thailand, they are tolerated by the Police as long as they are performed by Thais or Asians (Chinese).

If anybody walks around a few days anywhere in Thailand with their eyes open, they will see more Pedophile actions than believable.

But it will not be tolerated and crackdowns will be set in place if these things are done by a Westerner.

It is because of the big mouth of the Westerners who writes articles in newspapers and all over the Internet about the Pedophile actions in Thailand that the Thais are now scapegoating the Westerners.

[OzMick]

FBI and Australian Federal Police definitely operate in Thailand, PI, Cambodia and many other countries. They are there to prosecute their own citizens breaking laws, mostly re under-age sex, but also money laundering and drug smuggling. Both take the attitude that their countries laws apply to their citizens at home and abroad. Information of crimes being committed in a host nation by another national will be forwarded to the relevant agency of the host nation.

The French national appears to have been operating here for many years, under the blind eyes of the BIB. When information is supplied by FBI or AFP it comes in at the top, not at pocket level, so action is mandatory if just to save face.

Both agencies will track down o/s criminals via e-mail/internet usage of persons arrested. In the past, the FBI ran a web-site advertising under-age sex services in a Mexican hotel, knowing that most international flights to Mexico come via US. If you were stupid enough to pay in advance for stated illegal sexual acts, you would be arrested at the US airport, even while in a transit lounge.

One poster has submitted that this is unfair. All's fair in love and war; if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Also, I once asked a young Thai lady how old she was. Her reply was "How old do you want me to be?"

[Scott]

One thing to keep in mind is that pedophilia is the sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children. Children who have passed into puberty are no longer of interest to pedophiles. It's a fine point, but this thread is talking about teenagers. This is against the law, but it is not pedophilia.

[Trickcyclist]

he needs a couple of good lawyers; send Smith and Wesson around to see him!

It ISNT against only gay establishments so dont make it divisive.

This guy was offering under 18's for sex, despicable and not defend able on any level gay or not.

[coalminer]

FBI and Australian Federal Police definitely operate in Thailand, PI, Cambodia and many other countries. They are there to prosecute their own citizens breaking laws, mostly re under-age sex, but also money laundering and drug smuggling. Both take the attitude that their countries laws apply to their citizens at home and abroad. Information of crimes being committed in a host nation by another national will be forwarded to the relevant agency of the host nation.

The French national appears to have been operating here for many years, under the blind eyes of the BIB.

When information is supplied by FBI or AFP it comes in at the top, not at pocket level, so action is mandatory if just to save face.

Both agencies will track down o/s criminals via e-mail/internet usage of persons arrested. In the past, the FBI ran a web-site advertising under-age sex services in a Mexican hotel, knowing that most international flights to Mexico come via US. If you were stupid enough to pay in advance for stated illegal sexual acts, you would be arrested at the US airport, even while in a transit lounge.

One poster has submitted that this is unfair. All's fair in love and war; if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Also, I once asked a young Thai lady how old she was. Her reply was "How old do you want me to be?"

I couldn't have said it any better to confirm my post.

[jdinasia]

One thing to keep in mind is that pedophilia is the sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children. Children who have passed into puberty are no longer of interest to pedophiles. It's a fine point, but this thread is talking about teenagers. This is against the law, but it is not pedophilia.

It seems to me that the reports mentioned 12-20 year olds and that puberty can be entered at ages above 12.

[wolf5370]

One thing to keep in mind is that pedophilia is the sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children. Children who have passed into puberty are no longer of interest to pedophiles. It's a fine point, but this thread is talking about teenagers. This is against the law, but it is not pedophilia.

It seems to me that the reports mentioned 12-20 year olds and that puberty can be entered at ages above 12.

Yep, my wife was 16 when she had her first period - so if she had had sex at 15 then would the guy be a pedophilie? No government can make law on such wishy-washy lines, it has to draw a line in the sand (anyway how do you know a 15 year old is pre-pubescent without some kind of sexual encounter?). The line is 18 here and should be respected. Thais should protect their children, but it shouldn't be about foreign owned/financed bars/brothels/etc, it should be across the board with sting operations, video eveidence, the works. Foreigners and Thais alike - its sickening whoever is perpetrating.

Edited January 28, 2010 by wolf5370

[Jingthing]

It is not only a gay issue ,as it also involves both genders, which makes Pedophile a crime for all .

Of course it is not only a gay issue!

The gay issue I brought up was about the upcoming crackdown on off fee bars in Pattaya coming up in February, which was not specifically related to underage issues. I realize now that relating those issues confused some people; perhaps they lacked the sophistication to grasp the complexities that one thing is NOT another thing.

Here is the link to the other thing --

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=3286135

Regarding pedophilia, throughout the world including Thailand, it is a fact that the vast majority of it occurs heterosexually, not homosexually. All educated people know that.

It is despicable and truly disgusting to link homosexuals with pedophiles. That is no more fair than labeling straights with it. It seems on that point Mr. K and I agree.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

One thing to keep in mind is that pedophilia is the sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children. Children who have passed into puberty are no longer of interest to pedophiles. It's a fine point, but this thread is talking about teenagers. This is against the law, but it is not pedophilia.

That is a fact. Many people fail to grasp it. Perhaps it is because the laws in some countries don't make any such distinction. Common sense and the professional sciences show of course that there is a difference between a man who fancies a developed young lady who is short of the legal age and a man who can't control his desire for a toddler.

Of course the latter is horrific, but the former man can and should resist breaking the law and should respect whatever the legal age that exists wherever he is.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[TAWP]

If the age of consent is below that mandated by American law, an American citizen can still be charged with a violation of American law and prosecuted.

Age of consent is determined by each state in the Union and is not a federal law. And it varies between 16 and 18.

[Jingthing]

It is because of the big mouth of the Westerners who writes articles in newspapers and all over the Internet about the Pedophile actions in Thailand that the Thais are now scapegoating the Westerners.

Whatever the reasons for the increased attention, foreigners in Thailand would be very wise to do all they can to avoid breaking these kinds of laws in Thailand. If you have trouble with that, I suggest some viewing of the numerous Thai jail hel_l movies.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

If the age of consent is below that mandated by American law, an American citizen can still be charged with a violation of American law and prosecuted.

Age of consent is determined by each state in the Union and is not a federal law. And it varies between 16 and 18.

The last state I lived in the age of consent was 15. I think in some southern US states you can still MARRY (heterosexually only) at age 12.

However, the federal law of 18 applies to Americans abroad. Their home state laws do NOT apply to them while abroad on this matter.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[just_another_guy]

What baffles me with this thread is the amount of interest (based on replies & views---over 12,000 hits in less than 2 days) this is getting.

I admit my memory is fading as the years go by, but for the last eight years I have resided in Thailand there have been dozens of arrests for guys playing with boys and girls way younger than themselves and as many so-called crack-downs.

Why is this guy or this case (who I might add has only been arrested and not convicted) attracting so much interest?

It certainly isn't something new. That is my question for the day. Again, why of all the arrests having been made for unlawful activity in bars is this case so popular?

Just wondering is all.

Edited because of a senior moment

Edited January 28, 2010 by just_another_guy

[siggie2]

French national Jean Eric Lopez, 47, was arrested after the DSI's Bureau of Foreign Affairs and Transnational Crime was informed by representatives of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in Thailand and French national police based at the French Embassy in Thailand that Mr Lopez used to run entertainment venues which offered boy sex trade for hire and the accused himself had sexually abused children.

According to the investigation, the DSI officials found that Mr Lopez is a shareholder in several entertainment venues for homosexuals in Pattaya, which provide children aged between 12 and 20 year-old to the customers.

He was pimpin 12 year old aparently... What kind of charges is he gonna face ? Hope he'll stay in thailand, and won't be extrated to France...

I think it is of interest to our readership to notice that 'children' are considered up to 20 years old. I have said before on this forum and say it again: technically, until 20 years old (which is the age of majority, not to be confused with the age of consent), without the parent's consent you are at risk of being prosecuted for one version or another of statutory rape. While different members may have different views on the morality or practicality of this law- and there are certainly different legal points of view in our different home countries- this is the law in Thailand and it is the one under which we live.

Frankly speaking, I don't see why emotionally mature people over 30 would want to be with people under 20, anyway, but that's just IMHO.

There are people over 50 who want to be with 20 or under kids,believe me and i honestly feel sick when i see it,both girls and boys when i say kids

[OzMick]

It is not only a gay issue ,as it also involves both genders, which makes Pedophile a crime for all .

Of course it is not only a gay issue!

The gay issue I brought up was about the upcoming crackdown on off fee bars in Pattaya coming up in February, which was not specifically related to underage issues. I realize now that relating those issues confused some people; perhaps they lacked the sophistication to grasp the complexities that one thing is NOT another thing.

Here is the link to the other thing --

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=3286135

Regarding pedophilia, throughout the world including Thailand, it is a fact that the vast majority of it occurs heterosexually, not homosexually. All educated people know that.

It is despicable and truly disgusting to link homosexuals with pedophiles. That is no more fair than labeling straights with it. It seems on that point Mr. K and I agree.

The only reason why the majority of pedophilia involves heterosexuals is that the vast majority of people are, or claim to be, heterosexual. A more interesting study would be of the percentages of each group.

[OzMick]

Regarding coalminer's assertion that westerners are being targeted, I agree. I would love to see the FBI and AFP bring prosecutions against asian businessmen they observe committing crimes, if they subsequently travel to the US or Australia. At least, if nothing else, known offenders should be refused visas.

Under-age sex services in the PI are a big attraction for Japanese men, some of whom do business in oz. Japan won't prosecute them, nor the PI. Imagine a Japanese executive having to explain to his company why he can't travel to Australia.

[Jingthing]

The only reason why the majority of pedophilia involves heterosexuals is that the vast majority of people are, or claim to be, heterosexual. A more interesting study would be of the percentages of each group.

Of course homosexuals are a small minority compared to heterosexuals, a minority that has been demonized throughout history, and it continues today. If you find the percentage aspect of it so very interesting, why don't you do some research from credible sources yourself and get back to us?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel your post is intended as some kind of subtle implication that of course the percentage is higher among homosexuals. I feel the general public does feel that way due to institutionalized homophobia; however, I seriously doubt that is true, so if if you are going to make such insinuations, even subtly, I think you should consider backing them up with credible sources. If you can prove this point with credible sources, I have no problem saying, wow, that's really too bad, but actually I seriously doubt you can prove it. To be clear I am talking about actual clinical pedophilia, as referenced in the post by Scott (attraction to prepubescents).

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=3300225

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

That is my question for the day. Again, why of all the arrests having been made for unlawful activity in bars is this case so popular?

In the past on thaivisa, the vast majority of threads about similar topics have been rapidly closed. I don't think there is any special interest in this case that wasn't there already but typically stifled. That's my take on it anyway.

[MrJohnson]

Not defending the bar owners who do this. I would love to see it wiped out. I am questioning the scapegoating ONLY of gay establishments. That seems political, and it stinks.

I think it is political against pedos, not particularly against gays. You are not doing the average gays a favour by putting them in the same drawer with pedophiles. I do not think that if the FBI knew about a foreign bar owner offering underage girls, they would have turned a blind eye. Maybe there is one under investigation right now, who knows. I may be called intolerant, but I actually think a crackdown[tm] on places and bar owners that offer sex with children is good.

Well thanks for this post. A post that actually refers to the thread. This is NOT about prostitution! This is NOT about some crackdown on gay bars or homosexuals. This is about Pedophilia. I find it deeply disturbing that many posters are so flippant about such a serious topic and it is unfortunate that that topic has been derailed so many times by pedants and the paranoid. Let's get a handle on what a despicable practice pedophilia is and, if found guilty, this perpetrator should be dealt with to the full extent of the law. And in the interests of disclosure - yes I do have children.

[Jingthing]

Well thanks for this post. A post that actually refers to the thread. This is NOT about prostitution! This is NOT about some crackdown on gay bars or homosexuals.

Refer to post 169 and the thread it links to which explains the root of this confusion. Two separate issues here. Frankly, it is really getting tiresome having to rehash this numerous times.

Let's get a handle on what a despicable practice pedophilia is and, if found guilty, this perpetrator should be dealt with to the full extent

Well I think we know what it is (sexual attraction towards prepubescents). Of course the man should be prosecuted if found guilty. One trouble with such a hot button topic like this is that people have a really hard time discussing it rationally. It tends to bring out the lynch mob. It is possible to be in favor of prosecuting criminals and ALSO opposed to a lynch mob mentality. Based on his background the man sounds very guilty so I wouldn't worry too much about him getting off easy.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[lounger]

Well I think we know what it is (sexual attraction towards prepubescents). Of course the man should be prosecuted if found guilty. One trouble with such a hot button topic like this is that people have a really hard time discussing it rationally. It tends to bring out the lynch mob. It is possible to be in favor of prosecuting criminals and ALSO opposed to a lynch mob mentality.

The lynch mob seems to happily adopt the age 18 as a cut off point of childhood. This is absurd. There appear to be many very young adults who are not pressured into living off the sex industry but do so by choice. Linking these very young adults with prepubescent children seems to somehow provide excuses for the adults in these markets.

Its time a sensible view was taken on this.