Financial Advisor Recommendations

[boston2202]

I am going to weigh into the finacial advisor debate here in Thailand. Just like any profession, there are some that are good and not so good. Just like there is with accountants, teachers, mechanics and lawyers.

As per anytime you are parting with money, whether it is to buy a service or to invest, you need to do your homework. Check qualifications, experience and ask "how will you benefit me..??". If advice is being sort, ensure that you get a written report that justifies / confirms why the recommendations have been made.

Finacial advisors have and always will get a bad name, & in some instances, rightly so. But just like a good lawyer or accountant, they can subtstantially improve your financial position. I read a comment before that she should just put the money in as voluntary contributions in her superannaution. How could someone make that comment without getting further information and knowing what the investment objective was. Does she need to get it back before she turns 65..?? Has she already contributed after tax money to superannaution in the past 3 years..?? What is your tax status..?? Anyone that has any knowledge of the superannaution rules in Australia would know that just 'put it in superannuation' could be very detrimental to the client (& would result in your securities licence being cancelled).

No offence to the member that made that comment but that is why you are not a qualified financial advisor & advice should be left to the people that do know.

Most of the time, how you invest is common sense. Ask yourself why you want to invest, how long are you prepared to invest and how much could you afford to lose. It is then up to the financial advisor to construct a strategy to meet each & every one of your needs and objectives. If they can not be met, they need to inform why it can not be met. MAKE SURE IT IS IN WRITING. If an investment opportunity seems too good to be true, it generally is. 12%pa & 100% capital guaranteed....... please, who in their right mind would believe that...?? If you are getting a rate above the rate of cash, their is a degree of risk involved. Anyone that tells you different, you should not be dealing with them as they obvioulsy do not know the basics of risk v's return.

Finally, yes, i am a Financial Advisor (or not much better than a real estate salesman apparently)....... 15 years as a qualified advisor in Australia (DFp, IPS146 compliant, ASIC registered) and now 2 years in Thailand........ never had a complaint against me (yes, had times when clients portfolios dropped in value) & yet still tarnished with the same brush as every other advisor. All i can say is..... check credentials & experience but most of all......use your common sense. History has shown that good on going advice will result a better financial position.

[Gambles]

I am going to weigh into the finacial advisor debate here in Thailand. Just like any profession, there are some that are good and not so good. Just like there is with accountants, teachers, mechanics and lawyers.

As per anytime you are parting with money, whether it is to buy a service or to invest, you need to do your homework. Check qualifications, experience and ask "how will you benefit me..??". If advice is being sort, ensure that you get a written report that justifies / confirms why the recommendations have been made.

Finacial advisors have and always will get a bad name, & in some instances, rightly so. But just like a good lawyer or accountant, they can subtstantially improve your financial position. I read a comment before that she should just put the money in as voluntary contributions in her superannaution. How could someone make that comment without getting further information and knowing what the investment objective was. Does she need to get it back before she turns 65..?? Has she already contributed after tax money to superannaution in the past 3 years..?? What is your tax status..?? Anyone that has any knowledge of the superannaution rules in Australia would know that just 'put it in superannuation' could be very detrimental to the client (& would result in your securities licence being cancelled).

No offence to the member that made that comment but that is why you are not a qualified financial advisor & advice should be left to the people that do know.

Most of the time, how you invest is common sense. Ask yourself why you want to invest, how long are you prepared to invest and how much could you afford to lose. It is then up to the financial advisor to construct a strategy to meet each & every one of your needs and objectives. If they can not be met, they need to inform why it can not be met. MAKE SURE IT IS IN WRITING. If an investment opportunity seems too good to be true, it generally is. 12%pa & 100% capital guaranteed....... please, who in their right mind would believe that...?? If you are getting a rate above the rate of cash, their is a degree of risk involved. Anyone that tells you different, you should not be dealing with them as they obvioulsy do not know the basics of risk v's return.

Finally, yes, i am a Financial Advisor (or not much better than a real estate salesman apparently)....... 15 years as a qualified advisor in Australia (DFp, IPS146 compliant, ASIC registered) and now 2 years in Thailand........ never had a complaint against me (yes, had times when clients portfolios dropped in value) & yet still tarnished with the same brush as every other advisor. All i can say is..... check credentials & experience but most of all......use your common sense. History has shown that good on going advice will result a better financial position.

good post Boston very sensible points and I agree totally.

Keep at it - keep doing the right things, the right results always follow!

[DarwinK]

Thanks, Paul

You wrote a very long post , and I am having a hard time finding a clear answer to my original question. I'll try to keep this simple:

Original question: Who is managing Osmium? (Name of portfolio manager and firm will suffice.)

And now I have a new question: You state: "In order for regulators to accept the data for portfolios prior to June 2009, we did of course have to provide detailed proof" My new question: What regulator approved of the document on your website? I'm sure you'll agree it'll save time and trouble for me to just check with them directly.

As to my claims being false, no: the graph is right there on your company website.

All the best,

Darwin

[Gambles]

Thanks, Paul

You wrote a very long post , and I am having a hard time finding a clear answer to my original question. I'll try to keep this simple:

Original question: Who is managing Osmium? (Name of portfolio manager and firm will suffice.)

And now I have a new question: You state: "In order for regulators to accept the data for portfolios prior to June 2009, we did of course have to provide detailed proof" My new question: What regulator approved of the document on your website? I'm sure you'll agree it'll save time and trouble for me to just check with them directly.

As to my claims being false, no: the graph is right there on your company website.

All the best,

Darwin

Dear Darwin,

Sorry that the post was so long but it seems that a lot of matters were raised. The main thrust of what I was saying was that I am very happy to answer any questions but rather than a forum where I've made it very clear who I am and have provided detailed factual answers to any questions or comments but where anyone can hide behind noms de plume so no-one knows who they are or what their motivations are and where they can leave inaccurate comments I think that a much more appropriate forum would be for you to either visit us, take away all information, get answers to your questions and then you will get far more information than is ever going to be possible in a format like ThaiVisa. Alternatively we could invite everyone from the messageboard to come to our office and make it an open forum and people can get off their chests all issues about financial advisors. Or failing that we could have a webinar, Darwin, with you and I sat together and as many ThaiVisa posters are interested logged on and asking questions to us both. As I said, why wouldn't you do this? We can discuss the industry, MBMG, Osmium, Skandia whatever is on people's minds. That would get a lot of useful info into the public domain, would make sure that all your questions are answered and hopefully help a lot of other people to get information that will help them to decide how best to pursue their financial alternatives. Why wouldn't you?

In terms of your original question I did answer this.

I'm not sure if you're fully aware of the relationship between fund managers and fund advisors in offshore jurisdictions. As I mentioned the designated manager is Lancelot Fund Management in Switzerland. However the advisor to most of the offshore portfolios that we recommend for our clients (creating bespoke portfolios by using different blends of the Osmium and Iridium range of portfolios) is the Guernsey based division of the MitonOptimal Group of companies. Scott Campbell is ultimately responsible for the Guernsey investment operations and as I'm sure you know, Martin Gray runs the CF Miton funds in the UK but offshore these are distributed through the Guernsey entity. While this might sound complicated, this is a standard, perfectly normal way to achieve tax-efficiency by creating an offshore mirror of an established UK fund. Again I can easily show you all the corporate structures relating to this when you drop by. It's very straightforward and as I say if you look at the structures of fund management or other businesses this is a very typical method of achieving transparent, legitimate tax-efficiency. I have a list of which Fortune 500 companies (almost all of them!) use offshore centres to legitimately defray taxation - anyone working for almost any multi-national will probably be aware that their employer uses the offshore structures that are legitimately available to them to optimise tax-planning. They would be negligent if they failed to do so.

Guernsey is an interesting jurisdiction in that fund regulation there is so stringent. Too often people lump together the UK offshore centres but from a FUND point of view, I think that it's very safe to sya that Guernsey has generally a much more developed fund infrastructure and regulatory system than any other UK offshore centre.

Finally - regulation. As you know Osmium is a Guernsey regulated fund. Guernsey is strongly policed by the GFSC. All public domain information produced by the fund itself has to be approved by the regulator. Any 3rd party information has to be approved by that party's regulator. So if the graph on the website is one produced by a fund agency like S&P or Financial Express they have to satisfy their own compliance requirements and then if the fund uses the website it has to satisfy the GFSC and then if MBMG use it we make sure that we comply with CFA guidelines and criteria. So actually there isn't just one! One piece of data might end up having to be independently verified by half a dozen groups of people in places as from Thailand to Guernsey to Hong Kong to Singapore to the UK to the USA. It's very important to have these levels.

Let me know when you can come by for a chat or a webinar - I'd really welcome further questions from you in an open and public discussion rather than end up with hidden identities with suspicious questions that foment misinformation. What's the point in that? and as I keep saying, why wouldn't you ?

Thanks again,

Best regards,

Paul

[DarwinK]

In terms of your original question I did answer this.

I'm not sure if you're fully aware of the relationship between fund managers and fund advisors in offshore jurisdictions. As I mentioned the designated manager is Lancelot Fund Management in Switzerland. However the advisor to most of the offshore portfolios that we recommend for our clients (creating bespoke portfolios by using different blends of the Osmium and Iridium range of portfolios) is the Guernsey based division of the MitonOptimal Group of companies. Scott Campbell is ultimately responsible for the Guernsey investment operations and as I'm sure you know, Martin Gray runs the CF Miton funds in the UK but offshore these are distributed through the Guernsey entity. While this might sound complicated, this is a standard, perfectly normal way to achieve tax-efficiency by creating an offshore mirror of an established UK fund. Again I can easily show you all the corporate structures relating to this when you drop by. It's very straightforward and as I say if you look at the structures of fund management or other businesses this is a very typical method of achieving transparent, legitimate tax-efficiency. I have a list of which Fortune 500 companies (almost all of them!) use offshore centres to legitimately defray taxation - anyone working for almost any multi-national will probably be aware that their employer uses the offshore structures that are legitimately available to them to optimise tax-planning. They would be negligent if they failed to do so.

Guernsey is an interesting jurisdiction in that fund regulation there is so stringent. Too often people lump together the UK offshore centres but from a FUND point of view, I think that it's very safe to sya that Guernsey has generally a much more developed fund infrastructure and regulatory system than any other UK offshore centre.

Finally - regulation. As you know Osmium is a Guernsey regulated fund. Guernsey is strongly policed by the GFSC. All public domain information produced by the fund itself has to be approved by the regulator. Any 3rd party information has to be approved by that party's regulator. So if the graph on the website is one produced by a fund agency like S&P or Financial Express they have to satisfy their own compliance requirements and then if the fund uses the website it has to satisfy the GFSC and then if MBMG use it we make sure that we comply with CFA guidelines and criteria. So actually there isn't just one! One piece of data might end up having to be independently verified by half a dozen groups of people in places as from Thailand to Guernsey to Hong Kong to Singapore to the UK to the USA. It's very important to have these levels.

Let me know when you can come by for a chat or a webinar - I'd really welcome further questions from you in an open and public discussion rather than end up with hidden identities with suspicious questions that foment misinformation. What's the point in that? and as I keep saying, why wouldn't you ?

Thanks again,

Best regards,

Paul

Dear Paul,

Okay, to cut through your latest post, this is what I think you're saying:

* The MBMG fund fact sheet showing and graphing performance going back to Feb 2000 has been approved by the Guernsey regulator.

* The Guernsey regulator has seen all the data used to make the performance reports and agrees that the data is audited, and the performance calculations are correct starting from Feb 2000, and that this version of performance reporting is fine by the regulator.

* The reporting method used on the fact sheet of showing "model performance" graphed together with "actual performance" is one that is approved by CFA.

* Lancelot Fund Management is the fund management firm of Osmium.

* Scott Campbell and Martin Gray are the fund manager/advisors.

Is that what your posts say?

And to answer your question: "Why not chat or have a webinar" : What would be the point? It's taken several rather long posts by you for me to be able to sum up your potential answers to some clear and basic questions as above. A webinar or chat would likely go on and on in which you imply a lot, but as with your posts say little that is factual or of use. No point--sorry, not interested. It's easier to just check with the credible institutions you've mentioned are involved.

Thanks again,

Best regards,

Darwin

[Gambles]

Darwin,

I'm sorry that it's so difficult for you to understand but these are necessarily detailed responses to complicated issues. The basic issue is that investors deserve to have a conduit to consistent stable performance. Thanks to Martin Gray and Scott Campbell we've been able to do taht for over a decade now. However the details of ensuring that this is structured in the most cost-effective, transparent, legitimate, robust, secure way is indeed complicated. This is exactly why a webinar or face to face would be a good way forwards. I've made the offer several times now.Originally I made the offer as a helpful suggestion in good faith but since then your behaviour and responses seem extremely suspicious. I've provided extremely detailed information and now it seems to me like you have something to hide here so it's now gone from an offer to laying down the gauntlet - please arrange to meet preferably in a public situation - this coming week otherwise your questions and motivations might seem to be extremely suspicious and I would be minded to treat them that way.

In response to my question "Why not chat or have a webinar?" you say

"What would be the point? It's taken several rather long posts by you for me to be able to sum up your potential answers to some clear and basic questions as above. A webinar or chat would likely go on and on in which you imply a lot, but as with your posts say little that is factual or of use. No point--sorry, not interested. It's easier to just check with the credible institutions you've mentioned are involved."

Actually that's not strictly true is it? Yes the posts are long because the questions sound simple but the full answers required are detailed. A short answer to legal points would have been glib and incomplete. I have tried to disclose everything that's material. The point about a chat is that each side can ask the other for clarifications and explanations of each point. A webinar or chat would have resolved these issues much more quickly than this protracted Q & A process. I'm afraid I don't believe your reasons for seeking to avoid an open discussion and I wonder whether or not you must have some ulterior motives. As I say I'm happy to disclose and answer everything but now I think it's only fair for you to come out. There's a lot of jealousy among some aspects of the advisor community here that MBMG have had an exclusive and unique link of the kind that we do to MitonOptimal for so long. Forgive me if I'm wide of the mark but I'm afraid that your posts and in particular your refusal to meet make me conclude that sadly it seems like you have something to hide here.

To summarise (you've drawn some slightly errant assumptions which is why a face to face/webinar would still be the best way forwards)

- MBMG documents do indeed use the basis of calculation that is approved by CFA, as MBMG chooses to comply with the CFA's published code for companies

- All documents produced by the funds themselves are indeed fully GFSC compliant

- MBMG does not generally prepare or disseminate fund or portfolio data (even when providing personalised daily, monthly, quarterly, annual updates of individual performance to clients). Osmium and Iridium data is generally available on reporting systems like Financial Express because these are transparent, audited portfolios with independent 3rd party custodians and administrators, and therefore it's better to let 3rd parties collate, verify and publish the data. If every asset were operated this way there would be no more financial scandals. Having thrid parties hold the assets in custody and other 3rd parties adminster, value and audit the assets prevents any scope for misinterpreting the value or whereabouts of assets. A number of independent parties all ensuring that the others haven't made any accidental or deliberate mistakes is the only sure fire way of protecting investors' interests.

- Lancelot is designated as the manager of both Osmium and Iridium. Lancelot are both informally and formally advised by MitonOptimal (e.g. the investment decisions are made by MitonOptimal and effected by them).

- Osmium portfolios reflect the investment style of Martin Gray. Iridium reflects that of Scott Campbell. Both managers will visit MBMG again this year in Bangkok to meet investors and explain their approach to investment - DarwinK, you and indeed anyone else would be very welcome to come along, meet them and to get the message from the horse's mouth.

Meanwhile, please feel free to verify any of this with any of the above, but you know simple common sense should show you the overall similarities in shape between Osmium's enhanced performance and the regular performance of Martin Gray's underlying Special Situations, Arcturus, Select Assets and Strategic FSA regulated UK unit trusts -I tried to pastebelow for Martin Gray's composite performance relative to peer group(the post is rejected because of the tags on the image?? - if someone can explain to me how to fix that I'll do so because it's a very illuminating graph - Martin's composite performance going up in a pretty straight line (obviously some short term vol in periods) while the Balanced Managed Sector bounces up and down a lot - over the last 10 years - Martin virtually doubling your money while the sector achieved a gain of only around 20% - the graph is on the trustnet page).

But I'm sure you've seen it, DarwinK - The overall shape looks remarkably similar to a diluted Osmium doesn't it? Go figure!! Of course it does - it's the basis. Simply that Osmium is enhanced by the Core/Satellite approach for even greater perfromance and diversification.

By the way Martin is already showing good gains YTD despite the chaos in the markets so far. Martin Gray & Scott Campbell are proven colossi in their field. Their basic unit trust perfromance is exceptional therefore their portfolio are also exceptional. Just look at the combined S&P awards. It seems churlish to me that you're not celebrating their achievements - that just doesn't seem rational. Surely anyone who is at all interested in investments would want to know more about this - solid, consistent, risk-adjusted outperformance - top quartile in every trustnet period for the last 10 years. That's the more interesting story - just look at the press coverage of Martin Gray over the last few years (I can send you a selection of clippings if you like) - journalists and serious investors are clamouring to find out more all the time but you don't seem interested in this aspect? Frankly, that seems weird to me. Again, at the risk of repeating myself, should we arrange a webinar or a meeting perhaps?? You're so interested in the detaisla nd rightly so but you're not interested in the big picture?? I can't understand that. Unless of course there were some ulterior motive.

So come on, DarwinK, no more nonsense - it's time to come out of your dark, dingy closet! After all WHY WOULDN'T YOU??????????

A meeting or maybe a webinar?? Why ever not?? No more suspicious questions. No more snide comments. Just meet and debate and discuss. Why ever not? Otherwise people might just see you as a bluffer who's been called! Come on, do the decent thing. Let me know when you're free. I look forward to it and I'll have the coffee on and ready.

thanks and best regards,

Paul

[boston2202]

Paul, you continue to mention Miton in your posts. I assume you that you do use other fund managers as part of your portfolio construction...??

If not & Miton (& its variants) are your sole or core investment provider, can you please explain why..??

[Gambles]

Paul, you continue to mention Miton in your posts. I assume you that you do use other fund managers as part of your portfolio construction...??

If not & Miton (& its variants) are your sole or core investment provider, can you please explain why..??

good questions, Boston.

What we did, starting over 10 years ago, was ask for portfolios to be constructed for our clients where the portfolio construction function was delegated to Miton. Unlike most asset managers they are asset allocation specialists. They can select from their own fund range and from external managers. To prevent double charging all assets held have to fully rebate fees to the portfolio so in Miton's case there is no financial incentive for them to include their own funds and this is strictly limited under the rules of the portfolios, as you would expect. For us this means that experts are allocating the assets, costs are incredibly competitive (we calculated recently that the institutional rebates mean that although the management cost varies according to the range of holdings, in many cases the added cost is as little as 0.25% per year, while some IFAs in this town charge as much as 1.5% to do this themselves without the same expertise) and a wide range of assets and asset managers (invariably in institutional format) which currently include primarily:

Pimco

Man

Moonraker

Orbis

Turnstone

Carmignac

Ruffer

Odyssey

Thames River

Winton

Goldman Sachs

Deutsche

Schroder

HSBC

Plus of course tactical exposure to ETFs, Zeroes, REITs and structured notes as necessary.

They can of course select from the entire universe of investment vehicles but the key is really the asset allocation not the asset selection. Real, pragmatic, adaptive diversity is the focus!

It's a fantastic model - we have exclusivity in Thailand and Indochina but not outside so if you're somewhere like HK or Singapore let me know and I'll PM you the details. It's incredibly compelling - almost a 4% average gain in 2008 when everything else was crashing and burning.

Cheers,

Paul

[BlackJack]

If there were any good financial advisors then they would have been able to predict the crash in 97 and the crash in 2008

so i would say do your own reading and invest in 5 stocks, some realestate, some money in the bank.

I had several advisors in OZ and although paid win draw or loose they watched my money ebb away

not one of them thought to move it into cash at 5% as opposed to 50% loss in the funds - thanks Colonial.

instead it just melted away - so much for F Advisors

theres a stock ready to go in OZ and you can buy through commsec

look up SPL on the ASX

you wont be sorry

[Gambles]

If there were any good financial advisors then they would have been able to predict the crash in 97 and the crash in 2008

so i would say do your own reading and invest in 5 stocks, some realestate, some money in the bank.

I had several advisors in OZ and although paid win draw or loose they watched my money ebb away

not one of them thought to move it into cash at 5% as opposed to 50% loss in the funds - thanks Colonial.

instead it just melted away - so much for F Advisors

theres a stock ready to go in OZ and you can buy through commsec

look up SPL on the ASX

you wont be sorry

Jack, good luck with your tip; I hope it works out for you. Thanks for sharing it although I won't be following it up directly myself.

I really do sympathise with your experiences, but you can't tar the entire profession in Australia with the same brush and you certainly can't criticise the entire profession globally because of Australian experiences. Australia has developed significant expertise with hedge funds and other specific asset classes but is generally behind the curve in terms of sophisticated portfolio allocation, so your experiences may be more widespread there than I would have hoped. I can point to a number of international portfolio managers, including those with whom we're most closely affiliated, who made solid returns in both 1997 and 2008 (both years by the way when I wrote several pieces stating that I did expect crashes although I take your point and in fact we've constantly repeated the question first asked by Steve Keen - if there are over 20,000 registered economists around the world, how come only around 3 dozen are claiming now to have warned that the 2008 crisis was coming?) and did so by actively diversifying across all asset classes. A fixed holding of 5 stocks, real estate and cash doesn't really tick that box in my humble opinion.

We're expecting the All Ordinaries to fall very heavily from current levels (along with AUD and Aussie property) so SPL will have to pretty special to buck that trend although there are always some stocks that do precisely that and some stockpickers who consistently manage to find them. I don't know anything about BlackJack's credentials in that regard though so we tend to delegate to the likes of Orbis, Carmignac, Ruffer and Warren Buffett for our stockpicking.

[deejah]

how safe is cash in a thai bank

(i know not much return)

how does a non native open an oz account for 7%

can a US citizen open one?

thanks

[Gambles]

how safe is cash in a thai bank

(i know not much return)

how does a non native open an oz account for 7%

can a US citizen open one?

thanks

Thai banks are supported by the Deposit Protection Agency Act - I think it's THB 100 Mn per depositor in a failed institution until August this year, then THB 50 Mn until Aug 2011, 10 Mn until Aug 2012 and THB 1 Mn from Aug 2013 onwards. The question is how good these guarantees are - Ireland gave a blanket guarantee of all deposits but would find it impossible to honour that obligation. There are numerous articles about how the FDIC in America is unable to fund its expected obligations. Thailand probably couldn't cover its obligations today but as the guarantee is reduced and less attractive, it becomes more viable.

AUD acs are available in most jurisdictions but, teaser rates excepted I think that 4%, is a more realistic rate for most conventional AUD offshore term deposits with major first tier banks than 7% (but this isn't my area of expertise so I'm happy to be corrected). However you should be aware of the risks of holding AUD unless it's your base currency. At current levels AUD looks extremely vulnerable to significant correction at some point.

cheers,

Paul

[BlackJack]

If there were any good financial advisors then they would have been able to predict the crash in 97 and the crash in 2008

so i would say do your own reading and invest in 5 stocks, some realestate, some money in the bank.

I had several advisors in OZ and although paid win draw or loose they watched my money ebb away

not one of them thought to move it into cash at 5% as opposed to 50% loss in the funds - thanks Colonial.

instead it just melted away - so much for F Advisors

theres a stock ready to go in OZ and you can buy through commsec

look up SPL on the ASX

you wont be sorry

Jack, good luck with your tip; I hope it works out for you. Thanks for sharing it although I won't be following it up directly myself.

I really do sympathise with your experiences, but you can't tar the entire profession in Australia with the same brush and you certainly can't criticise the entire profession globally because of Australian experiences. Australia has developed significant expertise with hedge funds and other specific asset classes but is generally behind the curve in terms of sophisticated portfolio allocation, so your experiences may be more widespread there than I would have hoped. I can point to a number of international portfolio managers, including those with whom we're most closely affiliated, who made solid returns in both 1997 and 2008 (both years by the way when I wrote several pieces stating that I did expect crashes although I take your point and in fact we've constantly repeated the question first asked by Steve Keen - if there are over 20,000 registered economists around the world, how come only around 3 dozen are claiming now to have warned that the 2008 crisis was coming?) and did so by actively diversifying across all asset classes. A fixed holding of 5 stocks, real estate and cash doesn't really tick that box in my humble opinion.

We're expecting the All Ordinaries to fall very heavily from current levels (along with AUD and Aussie property) so SPL will have to pretty special to buck that trend although there are always some stocks that do precisely that and some stockpickers who consistently manage to find them. I don't know anything about BlackJack's credentials in that regard though so we tend to delegate to the likes of Orbis, Carmignac, Ruffer and Warren Buffett for our stockpicking.

Well you said it 20,000 wrong advisors and 36 right! (Globally)

my point exactly and all around the World they all got it wrong (mostly) less than .5% get it right

[BlackJack]

If there were any good financial advisors then they would have been able to predict the crash in 97 and the crash in 2008

so i would say do your own reading and invest in 5 stocks, some realestate, some money in the bank.

I had several advisors in OZ and although paid win draw or loose they watched my money ebb away

not one of them thought to move it into cash at 5% as opposed to 50% loss in the funds - thanks Colonial.

instead it just melted away - so much for F Advisors

theres a stock ready to go in OZ and you can buy through commsec

look up SPL on the ASX

you wont be sorry

Jack, good luck with your tip; I hope it works out for you. Thanks for sharing it although I won't be following it up directly myself.

I really do sympathise with your experiences, but you can't tar the entire profession in Australia with the same brush and you certainly can't criticise the entire profession globally because of Australian experiences. Australia has developed significant expertise with hedge funds and other specific asset classes but is generally behind the curve in terms of sophisticated portfolio allocation, so your experiences may be more widespread there than I would have hoped. I can point to a number of international portfolio managers, including those with whom we're most closely affiliated, who made solid returns in both 1997 and 2008 (both years by the way when I wrote several pieces stating that I did expect crashes although I take your point and in fact we've constantly repeated the question first asked by Steve Keen - if there are over 20,000 registered economists around the world, how come only around 3 dozen are claiming now to have warned that the 2008 crisis was coming?) and did so by actively diversifying across all asset classes. A fixed holding of 5 stocks, real estate and cash doesn't really tick that box in my humble opinion.

We're expecting the All Ordinaries to fall very heavily from current levels (along with AUD and Aussie property) so SPL will have to pretty special to buck that trend although there are always some stocks that do precisely that and some stockpickers who consistently manage to find them. I don't know anything about BlackJack's credentials in that regard though so we tend to delegate to the likes of Orbis, Carmignac, Ruffer and Warren Buffett for our stockpicking.

my credentials are that i do it all myself and have not worked for 10 years

SPL should be checked out by everyone as it is a very special stock

as for charts and trends = they dont work and are manipulated

just look at gold the greatest manipulated investment every

I dont want to get into a slagging match

my point is diversify -read a bit

shift things around

fund managers say oh its going down but the charts and trends seem to suggest that it will buck the trend on the shoulder curve on planet venus when the moon is in the seventh house

[BlackJack]

If there were any good financial advisors then they would have been able to predict the crash in 97 and the crash in 2008

so i would say do your own reading and invest in 5 stocks, some realestate, some money in the bank.

I had several advisors in OZ and although paid win draw or loose they watched my money ebb away

not one of them thought to move it into cash at 5% as opposed to 50% loss in the funds - thanks Colonial.

instead it just melted away - so much for F Advisors

theres a stock ready to go in OZ and you can buy through commsec

look up SPL on the ASX

you wont be sorry

Jack, good luck with your tip; I hope it works out for you. Thanks for sharing it although I won't be following it up directly myself.

I really do sympathise with your experiences, but you can't tar the entire profession in Australia with the same brush and you certainly can't criticise the entire profession globally because of Australian experiences. Australia has developed significant expertise with hedge funds and other specific asset classes but is generally behind the curve in terms of sophisticated portfolio allocation, so your experiences may be more widespread there than I would have hoped. I can point to a number of international portfolio managers, including those with whom we're most closely affiliated, who made solid returns in both 1997 and 2008 (both years by the way when I wrote several pieces stating that I did expect crashes although I take your point and in fact we've constantly repeated the question first asked by Steve Keen - if there are over 20,000 registered economists around the world, how come only around 3 dozen are claiming now to have warned that the 2008 crisis was coming?) and did so by actively diversifying across all asset classes. A fixed holding of 5 stocks, real estate and cash doesn't really tick that box in my humble opinion.

We're expecting the All Ordinaries to fall very heavily from current levels (along with AUD and Aussie property) so SPL will have to pretty special to buck that trend although there are always some stocks that do precisely that and some stockpickers who consistently manage to find them. I don't know anything about BlackJack's credentials in that regard though so we tend to delegate to the likes of Orbis, Carmignac, Ruffer and Warren Buffett for our stockpicking.

my credentials are that i do it all myself and have not worked for 10 years

SPL should be checked out by everyone as it is a very special stock

as for charts and trends = they dont work and are manipulated

just look at gold the greatest manipulated investment every

I dont want to get into a slagging match

my point is diversify -read a bit

shift things around

fund managers say oh its going down but the charts and trends seem to suggest that it will buck the trend on the shoulder curve on planet venus when the moon is in the seventh house

USA has run up its health care bill to an astounding 99.2 trillion dollars

this does not include other parts of the budget like war, bail outs etc

this is just for health

Robert K of Rich dad poor dad fame has decided that silver is the way to go and so i would add some to your portfolio

[Gambles]

my credentials are that i do it all myself and have not worked for 10 years

SPL should be checked out by everyone as it is a very special stock

as for charts and trends = they dont work and are manipulated

just look at gold the greatest manipulated investment every

I dont want to get into a slagging match

my point is diversify -read a bit

shift things around

fund managers say oh its going down but the charts and trends seem to suggest that it will buck the trend on the shoulder curve on planet venus when the moon is in the seventh house

Jack, I agree that 0.2% is not good enough. We should focus on rewarding the 0.2% and retraining the 99.8% and while I'm happy to take your word for it on SPL, personally, while I respect your views, I'd have to leave it because stockpicking is such a very specialist skill that a very few equity professionals have even with all the resources that they have available. I've certainly never had any pretensions in that regard, which is why I've never been in that area of business either for clients or with my own investments (which are entirely invested into the main strategies of our portfolio managers).

I also totally agree about technical analysis; it can be a good way to read sentiment but unless fundamentals support the directional trades then you can end up picking up nickels in front of bulldozers. Technicals are really more for traders than investors and the risks associated with trading are totally different from those associated with investing but whether Mercury is in Venus doesn't do anything for me either (although behavioural investment is an interesting area).

Our managers have been keen on gold as an asset since it was around $ 275 - they have sold off/sold down a couple of times including right now when they've taken a lot of the profit off the table @ $ 1100 - not because they don't see upside - they absolutely do - but gold is now behaving like a risk asset so you have to recognize the increased risk and vol. Also it had become an extreme size within the portfolios at over 10%. That's a very big call on a single asset - even if you use a range of methodologies to access it.

Silver is interesting - the question that will become clearer in coming months is whether silver merely represents a higher Beta play on gold price or whether it has additional intrinsic characteristics of its own - my own jury's out on that. Not sure about Robert K's credentials as a portfolio advisor - great authors don't always great investors make!

cheers, Jack, and good luck with SPL - I really hope it comes off for you. Just watch out for the downdraft on both the All Ords and the AUD.

Paul

[Zodiac]

OP: In my opinion you would be ill advised to use any so called" financial advisor" based in Thailand specifically in Pattaya. Such people are on a par with estate agents and used car salesmen only they are worse. You really should start with seeking guidence from well known international financial institutions including banks or their offshoots and offshore who are controlled and regulated in the advice they can give.

[ashacat]

You really should start with seeking guidence from well known international financial institutions including banks or their offshoots and offshore

Good job resurrecting and old thread to add this pearl of wisdom.

Banks are far worse than IFA's (excluding the cowboys), have you ever seen the charges levied by banks for their 'investment' products?

[ashacat]

You really should start with seeking guidence from well known international financial institutions including banks or their offshoots and offshore

Good job resurrecting an old thread to add this pearl of wisdom...

Banks are far worse than IFA's (excluding the cowboys) IMO, Have you ever looked at the fees charged by banks for their 'investment' products/services?!

[fletchsmile]

First question I would ask OP is what are you looking for a financial advisor for, and what are you trying to acheive?

I'm a firm believer in no-one can currently manage my own money as well as me, having a good knowledge and perhaps more importantly knowing what I want to acheive.

With that in mind, I haven't read Chiang Main Bruce's book, but 695 baht seems a small price to pay fro a good start, given some of the names who are quoted. The risk is it gets out of date, but it doesn't cost much.

After that, on individual investments, most people with a decent legit job would find the LTF's mentioned by Samran a very good new investment. I do these each year, among a wide range of onshore/ offshore stuff, and for me this is the first onshore investment I think of each year being in Thailand. Can invest up to THB 500,000 with of to 37%% tax back. Unbeatable for me, and I would think many others earning THB1mio up. Interesting I've yet to meet an IFA who recommends these as IFAs do not sell them and can't make money on them thru commissions. Probably a great first portf of call for most people spending a few year in Thailand prepared to accept some risk.

For many people on here, they probably don't even need an IFA for the amounts involved, and you could go direct to a fund manager starting with amounts as little as THB 5,000 or do indirectlt thru a bank who can choose various funds. Banks and security houses, fund managers etc, all offer a good range of products. eg ING, Aberdeen offer basic core products in most geographies and asset classes. Krung Thai, Tisco also have funds which leverage off overseas experts such as Allianz, DWS, etc

IFAs do have their place, but many of the marketing aspects on things like tax are irrelevant for many people with small amounts.

Ball park, unless you're worth THB 10mio up there's probably no need to speak to an IFA. There are plenty of good, reasonably priced products with low fees available in Thailand, with quality international names.

You can also start in your kids name too "by you" for THB 5,000 minimum, with in the majority of cases except very rich kids no real tax to worry about.

Thailand has made massive strides in this area onshore in the last 5-10 years since opening up to Foreign Investment Funds, with quality global brands.

[fletchsmile]

Banks are far worse than IFA's (excluding the cowboys) IMO, Have you ever looked at the fees charged by banks for their 'investment' products/services?!

Have you actually checked this out onshore in Thailand in the last few years. You may be surprised. Using Aberdeen Global Emerging Markets Fund as an example:

1) Buy thru a quality discount broker in UK with an initial charge of 4.75% which can be discounted to give effectively no intial charge. Ongoing total management + trustee + regsitrar fees etc levied approx 1.9% total per year

2) Buy direct from Aberdeen in Thailand (slightly different name - Aberdeen Global Emerging Growth)feeds into the same fund with a rebate to prevent being double charged. Initial charge 1.5% and same annual 1.9% total

3)Buy thru a foreign bank in Thailand, eg HSBC, Standard Chartered. Same charges as going direct to Aberdeen Thailand. No extra charges

4)Buy thru an IFA based in Thailand or offshore using an Offshore Portfolio Bond (OPB) = not very transparent at all, but seems to be similar built in initial charge + same annual 1.9% for underlying fund + commission fee for IFA + quarterly OPB fee for policy + quarterly fee by the likes of Skandia/Generali/Friends Provident/Scottish Provident etc + transaction fee if you wish to sell or change. In addition the IFA bond usually locks in your money for 10 years or so, allowing you to withdraw max of 75% to ensure 25% is left to pay the fees.

Now I can tell you from personal experience from having held the same type of fund by all 4 routes, and comparing the net returns after charges but before tax:

1) = best

2) and 3) = next best

4) = worst

Considering Tax

1)In the UK there would be potential capital gains tax outside an ISA or pension or other such structure

2)In Thailand direct = no more tax to pay (unless you're like the Americans). No capital gains etc

3)Thru the bank is similar to going direct. A UK domiciled person may need to watch his overall net worth exceeding GBP 325,000 on death, but you can also use your Thai wife's name and kids name who wouldn't be affected by the 325k

4) Yes, the IFA can wrap it tax free for you. Big But "1" you may not have to pay any tax anyway so why pay for it? Big But "2" you pay heavily for this thru all the extra charges of their OPB wrapper, as well as inflexibly being locked in on part for 10 years. Sure you can switch funds, but 25% usually needs to stay in the overall vehicle regardless of which fund or cash, to ensure they can fund 10 years charges and commisions for themselves and Skandia/Generali etc. There are also often penaties for early withdrawal

so for 2) and 3) Given that you can conveniently walk into Aberdeen's office in Thailand or any bank and discuss directly with them if you want, and sell without any lock-in periods, it's seriously worth considering this route for many people.

Particularly on smaller amounts. A Uk national resident in Thailand would pay no further tax if the money is kept here. (Their estate migh on death if over 325k)

A Thai wife would pay not tax at all on the Thai investment in any form whatsoever, as would a Thai/UK luk-kreung born here who would also have no inheritance tax etc so no need for the IFA's tax wrapper.

It doesn't take a genuis to work out that a decent guy with wife and 2 kids could spread the money equally between the 4 of them up to the value of GBP 1.3mio or THB60mio+ without any tax

SummaryBTW The underlying fund has yielded around 130% over the last 5 years = more than doubling. However, it has only been available in Thailand for 2 years. As mentioned the market has improved significantly in the last few years in terms of offerings. ING is another quality name, and MFC, KTAM, Tisco have some good foreign funds, which again call all be bought direct or thru banks.

The key point is there are now quality funds here in Thailand with global names and the same underlying as UK and other jurisdictions. Often with tax advantages, low initial start up, and excellent if in your wife or kids names.

[Arkady]

Now nearly a year on I have happened into this thread and have just reviewed the information about the Osmium Portfolio on MBMG's website. These are my observations following a quick glance:

1. The fact sheet is a year out of date.

2. It doesn't provide the name of the firm managing the fund. The name and address of the fund management firm and the size of its assets under management should be provided.

3. The name of the fund manager is not provided, although there is some confusing wording about the fund being managed around the strategy of Martin Gray of Miton Asset Management.

4. The size of the fund is not disclosed.

5. The total fees of the portfolio is not disclosed. I note it is investing in other firm's funds which involves an extra layer of fees paid to the external managers, some of which is usually quietly rebated as a third party marketer fee.

6. The fact sheet states that the portfolio is now unitized but no bid/ offer prices are provided and the typical bid/ offer spread is not disclosed. Bid/ offer spreads of unit trusts are often wide enough to drive a coach and horses through and account for an iniquitous hidden cost to investors of up to 7.5% even with blue chip fund management houses like JP Morgan and Baring.

7. The performance chart and table are thoroughly confusing. It appears to show 6 months of actual performance combined with 9.5 years performance of a model portfolio. If that is the case, the model portfolio performance is misleading and should be discarded.

8. The performance data fails to disclose whether the performance is shown gross or net of fees. If the performance is gross of fees the actual returns to an investor could be significantly less than the performance shown. As already noted, the fees of the portfolio and its underlying investments are not disclosed but it seems likely that this portfolio is operating in a fee rich environment as it is appears designed for marketing to financially unsophisticated retail investors.

9. The fact sheet mentions that the domicile of the portfolio was moved to Guernsey for greater transparency and regulation. However, Guernsey is beyond the purview of the UK Financial Services Authority (FAS) which licenses independent financial advisors, prescribes tight regulations on the fees they charge, the way they charge them and the amount of disclosure. Guernsey has its own financial regulation which its considerably looser and offers little protection to retail investors.

10. No details of the portfolio's auditors are provided.

11. I am confused by the references to GIPS, the CFA Institute's Global Investment Performance Standards, in the thread. The performance shown doesn't look as if it could qualify as a composite by a long shot. A composite is all the funds and portfolios managed by a firm on a similar basis. Thus a composite should include all the funds and accounts managed by whoever is the fund management firm using a macro global strategy, not just the funds they choose to term Osmium Portfolio. The use of any simulated or model portfolio is strictly prohibited and the whole firm must be 100% GIPS compliant in order to claim GIPS compliance of any portfolio but here we are not even told the name and address of the firm. I would be extremely surprised if the unnamed fund management firm could ever pass a GIPS verification audit.

12. Finally a lot of these expat financial advisors in Thailand are fond of claiming they are licensed in Thailand or even in the UK. The FSA doesn't license anyone who works outside the UK or cover any investment products outside mainland UK. So that puts paid to that one and you can easily check with the FSA, if an IFA is licensed or not. Also none of them are licensed by the Thai SEC which requires annual licensing of both firms and individuals who provide investment advice on securities for a fee. It is quite easy to look for licensed firms and individual investment advisors on the SEC's website and I assure you that you will not find any of them there. The penalties for violation of the SEC Act in this area amount to substantial jail terms and fines.

[scorecard]

stuff em' all.

Keep sticking it into your super fund back in OZ by making voluntary contributions. Easy peasy. Get a industry super fund, even better, lower fee's than yout AMPs of the world and definelty much lower than any 'advisor' will have you pay here in BKK.

Whatever else you want to save for Short Term requirements, stick it into an ING Direct account or similar.

Alternatively, if you are wanting to save tax on your Thai earnings, you could do worse than putting your money into a Thai based Long Term Fund (LTF's). Allows you to offset tax on up to 15% of your salary, if you stick it into one of these stock market linked funds for five callender years (in relaity 3 years and 2 days if you put the money in on the 31st of Dec each year). These funds are linked to blue chip Thai stocks (Banpu, PTT etc). Any capital gains are tax free when you pull the money out at the end of those 5 years.

ING Funds and Aberdeen Asset Management are two of the more respectable LTF providers out there. All the banks have LTF products as well. Fees are reasonable, with no advisor taking an extra cut.

Lots of good points.

As other have said, overall this 'industry' is uncontrolled in Thailand and overall, has a fairly shoddy history.

My worst experience was some years back when a British girl, guess mid twenties, burst into a meeting I was conducting with my senior staff.

She came in the front door, noticed (thru a glass wall) a meeting with a farang present (me) refused to give her name / her business or whataver to my receptionist, just opened the door and started talking: "Have you got your financial affairs in order, and if not why not?". She was dressed like a hippie, very poorly groomed and had rubber thongs on her dirty feet.

I told our security guard to get rid of her quickly. but as she was being escorted out she yelled "If you don't want my products I'll tell your fortune for 5.000Baht.

Another case, one of my farang colleagues gave approval for an 'agent' to visit our office and give his spiel. My colleague told me about this after the 'agent' had arrived and insisted I sit in and listen. Eventually I asked "What are the tax implications on this product?". The guy was obviously stumped and eventually said 'What does it matter?".

Third case, 'agent' visits (different) office, whilst receptionist is not looking steals the internal phone book (in English) with about 50 farang names. 'Agent' is told that he can't speak to anybody in the office, so goes outside and starts ringing all the farang by name, one by one.

[clinique]

Hi

I would then suggest possibly contacting MBMG International (google on this to get their web site). This company was first brought to my attention my TV member ''Churchill'' and I then met with them in relation to my book. They have been on the scene a while and I would think you would find them to be competent and professional.

- CB

Yes I have been using MBMG and they give good advice on a range of services .

Hi Churchill and chiangmaibruce--you two seem to be the resident experts on MBMG. Someone showed me a graph on their website--wondering if you could explain it because I wasn't sure if I understood. It shows the performance graph of a fund they manage called "Osmium". It shows some stonking outperformance of this fund against MSCI the World and the S&P500, beginning in Feb 2000. Yet the finer print says "Actual performance shown in bold from 1 June 2009". What should I make of that? Unless I'm mistaken, in markets where regulation is enforced, this is called False Advertising.

Remember that anyone can produce charts - or websites for that matter.

Is the fund listed or unlisted? If listed then its performace will be public knowledge, if not then how can you check performance??

Talk to Bernie Madoff perhaps.! He offered outstanding returns too!!

[Arkady]

That is a horrific story about so called expat financial advisors, Scorecard. They tend to be able to get through to expat staff on the phone more easily than local sales people because they claim to be your friend and support staff don't like to fob them off because they are farangs, or are at least speaking in English. When I used to get a lot them calling, my rule was to tell them politely once that I was not interested and, if they still refused to get off the phone, or called again I would just slip the receiver into my desk drawer and leave them rabbiting on to themselves. The larger firms employ Thai women as lead generators to call up companies that might have expat staff to wheedle out the names by pretending to be from some prestigious organisation that wants to invite them to a cocktail party or something like that. The salesman strikes a few weeks later when the suspicious calls are forgotten. I have been offered all kinds of BS investments by these people. In addition to the standard fake pensions and investment schemes discretely linked to very expensive life insurance policies with outrageous early withdrawal penalties, various boiler rooms have called offering a once in a lifetime opportunity to buy into a tree farm in Sri Lanka and penny stocks listed on the pink sheets in the US (the original classic boiler room scam). With the more hilarious schemes, I sometimes I indulge myself by asking a few basic investment questions I know they won’t be able to answer just to see how long it takes for them to pass the phone over to the idiot above them when I hang up. The latest trend seems to be unqualified “IFAs” setting up their own funds in order to gouge an extra layer of fees from investors who don’t notice they have put their money with a man-of-straw company in the British Virgin Islands with paid-up capital of US$1 to be managed by some one with no background in fund management or financial education.

For those working in Thailand, I agree with Samran that the LTFs and RTFs make sense up to your maximum tax deduction. Assuming you are paying a top marginal rate of tax of 30%, you are still breaking even if the fund loses 30% and you can take your money out after four years and a few days, if you invest right at the end of the year. I also favour Aberdeen which seems to have consistently good performance. I haven’t looked into it but putting money into their international equity funds might also be a way to go for those with funds onshore. This involves a double layer of fees but at least the SEC regulates fees quite well to prevent the type of gouging on fees, e.g. entry and exit fees, that is allowed in the UK and other developed jurisdictions. Otherwise, do a little research. Most people do some research before buying something like a car, rather than just walking into a “tent” on Rachadapisek and telling the used car salesman to sell him anything he wants up to the budget available. So do you care so little about your retirement prospects that you would do the same thing with your pension?

You can easily invest in almost anything today through exchange traded funds (ETFs). These are funds that are passively managed by computers to perform in line with all kinds of benchmarks: just about all major developed and emerging market stock indexes like the SET Index, the FTSE 100, the Dow Jones, Japan, India, China, Eastern Europe, Latin America etc; commodities like gold, silver, sugar, corn; and various bond indexes. Management fees are only around 0.4 to 0.9% with no entry, exit or performance fees and normally very low spreads between buying and selling prices, say 0.1-0.5%, depending on the trading volume of the fund in its stock market. You can buy and sell them any time in market trading hours without having to give any notice period. iShares, owned by Blackstone in the US, has a large stable of ETFs traded on various stock markets, including the US, the UK, Singapore, Canada and Hong Kong. If you have onshore money you can buy any of these funds through several Thai brokers that now offer brokerage service in international markets. You pay a double commission but because the SEC regulates this, the total commission is still quite low. If you have offshore money, the best option is to open an account with a broker in a tax efficient jurisdiction that offers online broking for low commissions in many different markets. My two favorites are Internaxx in Luxemburg and Boom Securities in Hong Kong. Internaxx offers the US, Canada, the UK, nearly all European markets, Hong Kong, Singapore and Australia. Boom is more Asian focused and offers, the US, Australia, nearly all Asian markets, including some that are otherwise hard to access for foreign retail investors like Japan, China, the Philippines, Indonesia, Korea, Taiwan and even Thailand. Internaxx is probably the better bet for those who want to invest mainly in ETFs as there are quite a few of these listed in London and even Canada that you can’t get at through Boom. In addition to ETFs, Boom and Internaxx are selling agents for many of the well known firms that actively manage funds like GAM, JF, Baring, Fidelity and JP Morgan and you can also buy these products through them online.

You can also open accounts with fund management firms directly, including the firms mentioned above. For example, if you think you like the fund managed by Martin Gray at Miton Asset Management, as touted by MBMG, you can invest directly into the real McCoy, rather than invest in a portfolio “managed around the strategy” of Martin Gray managed by an undisclosed fund manager at an undisclosed firm with undisclosed assets under management domiciled in an undisclosed jurisdiction without a regulator. Miton’s minimal investment size is only US$5,000. They do charge a 5% entry fee as well as 1.75% annual management fees and 10% performance fees but, at least, this is disclosed, even though the fees paid to external fund managers and the bid and offer spread that can swallow another 7-10% of your investment are not.

Sorry I missed one point in my review of MBMG’s fact sheet on its Osmium portfolio above. The fact sheet refers to the portfolio’s value at risk (VAR) being as high as 85%. VAR is a probability of a specified level of losses occurring. Thus you can express VAR as an 85% risk of a loss of, say, US$1 million occurring or a loss of, say, 5% of the portfolio but you can’t have a VAR that is plain 85%. That is meaningless. Anyway, even properly expressed VAR by some one who knows what he is talking about is only as good as its probability assumptions. If it were infallible, no hedge funds would ever go under!

[fletchsmile]

...

As other have said, overall this 'industry' is uncontrolled in Thailand and overall, has a fairly shoddy history.

...

If by "industry" you mean the expat IFAs then I'd probably agree. There is very little regulation at all and overall many do have shoddy histories.

If however, by "industry" you're including professional onshore institutions, such as the Thai Stock Exchange, Fund Management houses (eg Aberdeen and ING), TFEX, or banks, I would strongly disagree. All of these are generally well regulated in Thailand.

[fletchsmile]

..

For those working in Thailand, I agree with Samran that the LTFs and RTFs make sense up to your maximum tax deduction. Assuming you are paying a top marginal rate of tax of 30%, you are still breaking even if the fund loses 30% and you can take your money out after four years and a few days, if you invest right at the end of the year. I also favour Aberdeen which seems to have consistently good performance. I haven’t looked into it but putting money into their international equity funds might also be a way to go for those with funds onshore. This involves a double layer of fees but at least the SEC regulates fees quite well to prevent the type of gouging on fees, e.g. entry and exit fees, that is allowed in the UK and other developed jurisdictions. ...

Yes as mentioned above for someone under THB 10mio portfolio a great place to start is LTFs.

After 5 years they can be moved tax free to Foreign Investment Funds (FIF), to ensure you don't end up with too much in Thai equities, and a better global portfolio.

In addition FIF can be purchased alongside LTFs but without the tax benefit, so makes sense to fill the LTFs first, but keep an eye you don't end up too concentrated on the Thai markets.

Your statement on double charging isn't accurate though. If you take Aberdeen as an example, they rebate so that you are not double charged. eg to quote an Aberdeen factsheet on a fund I have

"*The investment manager of the Master Fund grants a

rebate to the Fund in the form of cash or additional units in

the Fund equivalent to the investment manager’s fees such

that there is no double charging of management fees."

Any foreigner buying RMF (retirement funds) needs to be careful. Yes, there's a tax benefit the same as LTF. However, with LTFs you can access your money tax free within 5 years max. RMFs you need to wait until 55. This is somewhat unflexible for younger expats, who may end up leaving Thailand for one reason or another. Circumstances change. A 30 year old guy that goes back West probably doesn't mind waiting a couple of years for his LTF tax free. For RMFs that a 25 year wait!

Personally I hold LTFS and do every year. I also hold FIFs onshore here. I don't do RMFs because of inflexibility like the Offshore Portfolio Bondss IFAs flog to death.

[fletchsmile]

...You can also open accounts with fund management firms directly, including the firms mentioned above. For example, if you think you like the fund managed by Martin Gray at Miton Asset Management, as touted by MBMG, you can invest directly into the real McCoy, rather than invest in a portfolio “managed around the strategy” of Martin Gray managed by an undisclosed fund manager at an undisclosed firm with undisclosed assets under management domiciled in an undisclosed jurisdiction without a regulator. Miton’s minimal investment size is only US$5,000. They do charge a 5% entry fee as well as 1.75% annual management fees and 10% performance fees but, at least, this is disclosed, even though the fees paid to external fund managers and the bid and offer spread that can swallow another 7-10% of your investment are not.

...

Actually, you can also buy Miton's funds via a discount broker in the UK. Some such as the Special Situations or Strategic Portfolio have very low volatilities, which was useful thru 2008's financial crisis.

Thru Hargreaves Lansdown, for example, you can have the initial charge discounted to zero (from 5%), and minimum investment is GBP 1,000. HL will even rebate part of the annual charge by Miton, so you end up paying 0.15% less on the 1.75% you quoted.

Again for someone with net worth under GBP 325k inheritance threshold this is worth considering.

[orpheus454]

My advice would be to stick to the big global companies or read up yourself with the right books, mags, newspapers ...

Yep, like Merrill Lynch, or Bear Stearns...

[orpheus454]

My advice would be to stick to the big global companies or read up yourself with the right books, mags, newspapers ...

Yep, like Merrill Lynch, or Bear Stearns...

And don't forget to only invest in products with a AAA rating from Moody's or S&P, because they're absolutely safe...