The Karma Conundrum

[cognos]

..they say that the poor farmers in Issan, and poor people in LOS in general will never revolt, as in for example France in 1789 ( heads rolled, let them eat cake, the Bastille,red berets,sans coulottes, Les miserables,etc)

..they say that is because the poor in LOS accept their lot in life, no matter how bad it gets for them, so they are relatively "happy"

..they say that is because they believe in Karma, and they must have screwed up in their past life, so they accept their fate, and do not complain, my bpen rai

.. they say the rich in LOS love Karma too, in part because it "keeps them ( the poor) down on the farm", and the rich stay rich, and the poor get poorer

..one source is from the book "The force of Karma", written by a Thai

..what do you have to say about this ??

i say it is a double-edged sword, the rich are deluded, and so are the poor, so it cuts both ways, but much deeper for the poor..

signed: thank God for Buddhism, Christianity and Islam

[samuibeachcomber]

I dont think you can blame it on karma,although this maybe used to keep "people' in their place.The lack of health care,social welfare net and support for a decent rice price,together with abysmal education are to blame,and really education is the key,dont give them that and they will always be poor.Thank god for the farang off loading a bit of cash to the daughters.

[petecooper]

i say it is a double-edged sword, the rich are deluded, and so are the poor, so it cuts both ways, but much deeper for the poor..

signed: thank God for Buddhism, Christianity and Islam

And believers in these three absurd collections of nonsense are less deluded, how exactly?

Give me a break.

[sanook2me]

I always find the peasants revolting! no matter which country they are from

signed...

thinks aunty coggers is a loony tune but enjoys his posts

[Briggsy]

The OP's post is not altogether rational and is hard to fathom in terms of logically following on.

Corruption plays a large part in denying poor people the tools to improve their lot.

[SeanMoran]

..they say that is because the poor in LOS accept their lot in life, no matter how bad it gets for them, so they are relatively "happy"

So why is it then that those same people you speak of are the same that make me happy as the most honest, brave, sincere, and decent friends of all, while the carpet-baggers in Bangkok cause me the most woes and steal from me, in time and money?

Let them reap what they sow. Trust in Karma.

<time for last night's dinner now. brb 1 hour>

[lazygourmet]

Maybe they need their own Jose Bove

[cognos]

i say it is a double-edged sword, the rich are deluded, and so are the poor, so it cuts both ways, but much deeper for the poor..

signed: thank God for Buddhism, Christianity and Islam

And believers in these three absurd collections of nonsense are less deluded, how exactly?

Give me a break.

and tell me what you believe in, YOURSELF??? How well has it worked, and how well will it work on your death bed?

signed: Hail to the CHIEF

[cognos]

The OP's post is not altogether rational and is hard to fathom in terms of logically following on.

Corruption plays a large part in denying poor people the tools to improve their lot.

..and the corruption is allowed to go on unabated, as the perpetrators can always take solace in making merit, to make up for their deviant practices, culminating in the red - white conundrum we see today. At least Thaksin did some good in Chiang Mai, with all the ring roads, and a few million poor were given succor with a few hundred baht, enough for a nice little one night bender

signed: doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result ( definition of insanity)

[SeanMoran]

'Tis easier to thread a needle through the the eyes of a camel

than for a rich punter to exit the gates of Pattaya.

Goodnight fellows. Sweety dreamys.

[cognos]

i say it is a double-edged sword, the rich are deluded, and so are the poor, so it cuts both ways, but much deeper for the poor..

signed: thank God for Buddhism, Christianity and Islam

And believers in these three absurd collections of nonsense are less deluded, how exactly?

Give me a break.

perhaps they are more deluded, as opposed to less

signed: reverse psychology

[F1fanatic]

Religion doesn't come into it. As a previous poster pointed out - the concept of 'merit making' just shows how 'Buddhist' the locals are. The idea of 'karma' is a joke when someone thinks 'making merit' will absolve them for responsibility for sins.

The Isaan farmers are happy to see their daughters go to the tourist resorts, and pray they just bring back a farang that will give them money. As long as the farangs build some of them houses/pay them money etc. - they all have the hope it will happen to them too.

[Heng]

Anyone can choose not to believe in karma. I made my own choice when I was in grade school.

I do agree that giving karma too much credit can and often does keep folks from achieving and recovering from minor failures.

[cognos]

Anyone can choose not to believe in karma. I made my own choice when I was in grade school.

I do agree that giving karma too much credit can and often does keep folks from achieving and recovering from minor failures.

sorry. a bit off topic, but..the high point of karma for me was a delusion..high on weed, and feeling blissed out at the beach..now I feel more blissed out sans weed or karma. I'm not saying karma is an illusion, but getting high sure was, a temporary one at that. Its nice to live a life where tea (and the shapely wife) is the strongest stimulant I partake in..its good "karma"

signed: from self medicating to true happiness

[fabianfred]

It looks like the posters in this thread have only heard of the word karma and made no attempt to study what it really means.

The rich Hi-So people who have been born into luxury because of past good karma are enjoying the benefits of past karma....but if they only make merit in an insincere way and mainly do it to gain 'face', then it will have little good effect, and certainly not act in any measure to cancel any bad karma they are creating by feeding their egos. Considering themselves as superior beings simply because of their riches and power...... using their position to cheat and cause suffering to others...these acts will surely lead them to rebirth in the lower realms.

A common misunderstanding is that karma means fate, and that those born into low position in society can do nothing to change it. This is not the way karma was taught by the Buddha. Certainly a poor farmer was born this way as a result of past bad karma, but if he studies the Dhamma and practices it, he can surely create much good karma and will reap the benefits eventually.

The rich man who abuses his riches will soon become poor....the poor man with a generous heart will soon reap riches.

[sokal]

Karma is total bullshit. I know some rich pricks that make livings by ripping people off. Some of them have happy families and nothing bad ever seems to happen to them.

[apetley]

Karma is total bullshit. I know some rich pricks that make livings by ripping people off. Some of them have happy families and nothing bad ever seems to happen to them.

Not often I find myself agreeing with sokal but this time I find that I do.

Wish that I could see the evidence for karma but to me it's just another misguided philosophy.

Where for instance is the proof that a shitty life is payback for previous life wrongdoing or that the mayors nice big house is because he led a good previous existence?

Seems to me that it is the usual 'jam tomorrow' if your good and do as your told by the powerful and influential who preach to those less fortunate to keep them in their respective places.

[fabianfred]

Karma is total bullshit. I know some rich pricks that make livings by ripping people off. Some of them have happy families and nothing bad ever seems to happen to them.

karma does not give instant results...but sometimes waits aeons for the time to ripen and have an effect.

There is no more proof or evidence that karma does not exist than that it does exist.

But it is a far more logical and fair reason for things happening than the mere whims of a god or pure chance...

Edited April 18, 2010 by fabianfred

[sokal]

Karma is total bullshit. I know some rich pricks that make livings by ripping people off. Some of them have happy families and nothing bad ever seems to happen to them.

karma does not give instant results...but sometimes waits aeons for the time to ripen and have an effect.

There is no more proof or evidence that karma does not exist than that it does exist.

But it is a far more logical and fair reason for things happening than the mere whims of a god or pure chance...

Pure chance makes more logical sense then karma.

[Loz]

KArma requires faith. Faith requires trust in something unproven.

Problem is, there is all too much proof that injustice does exist. So where does that leave your faith? It's little more than saying, "If I choose to beleive that their will be a reckoning when I am dead, I can ignore today's problems with a 20bht donation at the temple every now and then".

I prefer to be accountable daily for my lot in life. If I screw up, its on me. If I succeed, its on me. If you didn't feel any responsibility for your lot in life, how far would you be from being a Sociopath? ...which interestingly has been linked with "environmental factors" when compared to Psycopaths who are beleived to be suffering from genetic dissorders. I'm not saying Thailand breeds sociopaths to order but.........

edit spelling

Edited April 18, 2010 by Loz

[fabianfred]

KArma requires faith. Faith requires trust in something unproven.

Problem is, there is all too much proof that injustice does exist. So where does that leave your faith? It's little more than saying, "If I choose to beleive that their will be a reckoning when I am dead, I can ignore today's problems with a 20bht donation at the temple every now and then".

Karma is a natural law which exists and acts upon all beings....just like gravity. It does not care if I believe in it or understand it...it just works all the same.

However, if I do understand it, it will be to my benefit....it is like understanding the rules...how life works.....and why things happen.... a definate advantage I would say.

Injustice is everywhere....but expecting the law of karma to give its effects in a short enough time scale for us to see is too much to expect. 'What goes around, comes around'...... 'cause and effect'...are ways of comparing karma...but only a god will be able to 'smote the wrong-dooer' with a bolt of lightening and give an instant effect.

A small donation to a temple does nothing to cancel suffering caused to others by our ignorance of karma and how it has an effect.

[Heng]

Karma is just vague intuition as pertains to the natural order of things: ie. homeostasis in nature or basic physics (every action/equal opposite action...). Unfortunately over time people -and in no way some kind of organized conspiracy- have slapped on a philosophy to it. The organized blindness of organized religion.

Also an easy outlet/delusional state for those who have no work ethic... *I don't have the discipline to build a fortune selling goods for 20-X00 Baht profit per unit over 10-40+ years, but I can certainly handle scooping 20 Baht worth of rice into the bowl of a passing monk several times a week and hoping/wishing it pays off big time in the long run.*

Edited April 18, 2010 by Heng

[F1fanatic]

It looks like the posters in this thread have only heard of the word karma and made no attempt to study what it really means.

The rich Hi-So people who have been born into luxury because of past good karma are enjoying the benefits of past karma....but if they only make merit in an insincere way and mainly do it to gain 'face', then it will have little good effect, and certainly not act in any measure to cancel any bad karma they are creating by feeding their egos. Considering themselves as superior beings simply because of their riches and power...... using their position to cheat and cause suffering to others...these acts will surely lead them to rebirth in the lower realms.

A common misunderstanding is that karma means fate, and that those born into low position in society can do nothing to change it. This is not the way karma was taught by the Buddha. Certainly a poor farmer was born this way as a result of past bad karma, but if he studies the Dhamma and practices it, he can surely create much good karma and will reap the benefits eventually.

The rich man who abuses his riches will soon become poor....the poor man with a generous heart will soon reap riches.

Buddhism is all about learning from past lives to become better. Consequently one has to assume that someone born as a rich male has been rewarded for past lives.

How come then that most of them go on to abuse that position and take every baht they can from the poor?

[Heng]

How come then that most of them go on to abuse that position and take every baht they can from the poor?

Maybe that's the reward for past good deeds. That's one of karma's flaws, there's so much margin for spin. I spared an ant mound today from a gasoline inferno followed by a water hose flood (will let the landscaper handle it at their own discretion), no doubt the poor will be paying tribute to me for the next several generations.

[fabianfred]

Also an easy outlet/delusional state for those who have no work ethic... *I don't have the discipline to build a fortune selling goods for 20-X00 Baht profit per unit over 10-40+ years, but I can certainly handle scooping 20 Baht worth of rice into the bowl of a passing monk several times a week and hoping/wishing it pays off big time in the long run.*

What you see as a useful life ripping people off for 40 years..... I see as 40 wasted years creating bad karma by greed ...... and the person who starts his day by giving to others....even only some rice...has a good mindset.

Giving will always be better than taking....in my book.

Buddhism is all about learning from past lives to become better. Consequently one has to assume that someone born as a rich male has been rewarded for past lives.

How come then that most of them go on to abuse that position and take every baht they can from the poor?

Riches bring power...power corrupts. Those born into riches have probably lost their Buddhist roots and follow like slaves the consumerism religion like the West. Because 90% of the world worships money the rich think they are higher life forms because they have what everyone else aspires to....and their egos get inflated.

Buddha said that there are four kinds of people....

Those who come from the light and go to the dark; come from the light and go to the light; come from the dark and go to the light; come from the dark and go to the dark..

Those rich who abuse their power are in the first category.....headed down....

[F1fanatic]

How come then that most of them go on to abuse that position and take every baht they can from the poor?

Maybe that's the reward for past good deeds. That's one of karma's flaws, there's so much margin for spin. I spared an ant mound today from a gasoline inferno followed by a water hose flood (will let the landscaper handle it at their own discretion), no doubt the poor will be paying tribute to me for the next several generations.

Makes an a...se out of the Buddhism belief surely. 'Beings' progress up the scale (by being good) until they become wealthy humans. Then, amazingly most of them become v bad indeed....

Something v wrong there with the belief......

[Heng]

What you see as a useful life ripping people off for 40 years..... I see as 40 wasted years creating bad karma by greed ...... and the person who starts his day by giving to others....even only some rice...has a good mindset.

Giving will always be better than taking....in my book.

How'd you come to the conclusion that anyone was being ripped off?

What's sad is that a lot of folks come to the conclusion way too late that they should have been supporting their families more and strangers/monks/stray dogs less over the course of 40 (or whatever) wasted years.

[Heng]

How come then that most of them go on to abuse that position and take every baht they can from the poor?

Maybe that's the reward for past good deeds. That's one of karma's flaws, there's so much margin for spin. I spared an ant mound today from a gasoline inferno followed by a water hose flood (will let the landscaper handle it at their own discretion), no doubt the poor will be paying tribute to me for the next several generations.

Makes an a...se out of the Buddhism belief surely. 'Beings' progress up the scale (by being good) until they become wealthy humans. Then, amazingly most of them become v bad indeed....

Something v wrong there with the belief......

What if the people who they are being bad to, deserve (because of their karma, tada!) it?

[F1fanatic]

How come then that most of them go on to abuse that position and take every baht they can from the poor?

Maybe that's the reward for past good deeds. That's one of karma's flaws, there's so much margin for spin. I spared an ant mound today from a gasoline inferno followed by a water hose flood (will let the landscaper handle it at their own discretion), no doubt the poor will be paying tribute to me for the next several generations.

Makes an a...se out of the Buddhism belief surely. 'Beings' progress up the scale (by being good) until they become wealthy humans. Then, amazingly most of them become v bad indeed....

Something v wrong there with the belief......

What if the people who they are being bad to, deserve (because of their karma, tada!) it?

No excuse surely under Buddha's teachings.

Buddah would not hurt an ant (a being that within the belief system must have been v bad indeed!).

[Heng]

No excuse surely under Buddha's teachings.

Buddah would not hurt an ant (a being that within the belief system must have been v bad indeed!).

What about squashing an ant you do not see?

No different than selling an extremely delicious pastry dish that some guy/gal spends his last 100 Baht on (directly into our cash register) and neglects to buy milk for his/her child at home who sinks further into an unrecoverable tailspin life of malnourishment.

*just an example, I'm not in the pastry business.