Documents To Allow The Public Playing Of C/ds

[randomchase]

last night i was called out to help get a cashier out of Chalong police station

She had gone willingly with a man who said he was taking her to the police station to talk about

the C/D collection in her place of work. In the chiangmai forum i have seen referances to the 'music police'? The price demanded of those who went to seek her release,40.000 baht. for what and in pounds. drop dead, what was this crime? ?? dont know ? i said i was unable to get that much, [too easy to part with money here, in the vicinity of the cop shop and atms] tell them to bring it down to 5000 [100 uk pound's,] the cashier was not in custody but unable to leave. finally some one inside agreed on 10,000, I never go in to this place, see 'falang' see money, and my connection was help only. I gave the petitioners the 10,000. 1 hour later they came out, not even a recipt, or why etc the money was demanded and to whom paid, the cashier was the only one concerned about this. making the eating gesture with her mouth. that Thai's do to signify a scam?/ i do not condone an artist or a recording company not getting their due rewards but i did not feel this10 00 money would go to them.Sorry long post, can any one tell me what the bars, and other places, need to do or what documentation to be in possession of to be within the law. plus performing rights .i want to know the real deal so this can not occure again thanks guy;s and girls random

[ScubaBuddha]

I think long posts are OK if they generally contain correct spelling, punctuation, capitalization, grammar, and paragraphing.

So I understand you have a bar just playing music? These shakedowns sure seem silly when you can buy bootleg copies so easily in so many places.

I find this topic interesting. These links below might help you. Unfortunately there is a lot of "I heard this or that..." in them, and not much concrete information. I think the authorities rely on the ambiguity so they can create opportunities for themselves to extort you. Your story sounds like legalized kidnapping/ransom really.

Here is a quote from a former tourist police volunteer, simon43, that also owned a bar. It seems the be the best info I have seen yet.

When I owned some bars in BKK a few years ago, we had to have annual licenses from each and every record company to play both Thai and western music. So each year, my wife would go and see Sony GMM etc and get these license stickers for the bar. We had maybe 8 stickers each year, total cost probably around 8,000 baht. When the music police came visiting, we never had any problems. But other bars without these stickers had their expensive equipment confiscated!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Music-Licenc...nt-t146787.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Copyright-Police-t217155.html

http://www.phuket-info.com/forums/expats/3...sic-piracy.html

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2008/02...yright-seminar/

It is said these people issue the licenses you need:

http://www.1stopmusic.com/tariff.html

An interesting related story:

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2009/02...sed-in-pattaya/

Edited March 5, 2010 by ScubaBuddha

[LivinLOS]

You need a music licenses for all the music you play.. Everyone knows this.. Fail to buy the multiple licenses then expect to pay the fines..

Yes the system is a mess.. But sympathy factor very low.. This isnt new its that way it works.

[Hobc]

Certain probably not legal guy's present themselves as rep's for certain cd labels, not all, and fine 2000bt for copy write violation.

Taking your worker is just for extraction. When in doubt stand your ground & neg'.

[blakegeee]

Yes you did get scammed, as many many due in this scam, including your neighbors no doubt. You have also broken the law by not having this license though. The people who took your money also have no right to do so as they do not own the rights either.

These extortionists prey on uneducated people. In the future, you need to explain to your staff what a search warrant is, and if they don't have a proper one with the name of establishment, and id to prove that they are the ones allowed to search, than they cannot. (BTW; they never actually have a "real" search warrant in the many bars I have talked to that have experienced this). They also cannot take things from your establishment despite who they work for. That is called "stealing" which is illegal even in Thailand. Next time, don't allow them to search, don't allow them to take anything, and don't go anywhere with them. Take their photos and if they steal something, don't go with them and just call the police to report the theft. The police will only back them up if they can get someone to the station "voluntarily"?! The photo thing works very well! I have a nice collection myself that they did not like, especially of their vehicle and number plate (black Fortuner, Chiang Mai plate กอ 9097). As soon as they saw me get a photo of their truck and plate they immediately ran out of the bar, tried taking my camera (without much force), and tried taking me to police station, again without much force, just big mouths.

They set up the whole thing to intimidate uneducated people. It looks official because they often hire a policeman (who does nothing, just stands around minding his business), they often have many young guys that look like they are ready for a fight (although they never seem to fight anybody), and they have at least one smart dressed, pushy, smooth talker that looks and sounds official. They also cannot provide any ID or proof of who they work for.

Again, these people do not actually represent the music companies. It is nothing more than a scam. BUT if you want to be legal (these guys will still attempt to extort you if you let them) but you can buy a license from 1stopmusic as posted above for playing western music. The price of the license varies based on the size and type of venue, as well as the media you use, computer vs cds, etc. If you want to play Thai music you have to buy different licenses which is quite straight-forward in Thailand.

BTW; they came to our place twice. First time, the wife and I were not there. At the time, we hadn't heard about these scams for a few years and they have evolved since then so we were caught off-guard. By the time we arrived, they had confiscated ipod, amp, and my laptop which was just there not hooked up to anything or even turned on. I guess the ipod didn't look big or valuable enough, so the more the better for them. The wife went to the police station where they had taken everything to find 4 other bars on our soi there. They had 1 person from each bar there that was "not allowed to leave" although they were not in custody??? She ended up negotiated a group rate of 12,000b per bar which is quite a bit less than all the other bars that we hear about being nailed around here.

Another one of these gangs came a couple months later. This time we were there! I was just sitting at the bar like a regular customer. I turned around a photographed the individuals in the bar and they thought nothing of it. I guess they figured young farang take photos of everything. Then they noticed me outside getting photos of their truck with number plates. I also got a photo of the driver with limo tinted windows rolled down as he was trying to figure out how to let traffic by without leaving his crew behind. They were all making a scene and quite upset about these photos, but immediately left the bar. They made it look like they were going to fight me but they didn't actually do anything but leave fairly quickly after that. They had no luck with the neighbors either who actually had the music licenses now. We still don't have them. They still attempted to get the licensed places but had no luck. One of the neighbors was new since the first sting and got stung by this second gang of extortionists.

[LivinLOS]

These extortionists prey on uneducated people. In the future, you need to explain to your staff what a search warrant is, and if they don't have a proper one with the name of establishment, and id to prove that they are the ones allowed to search, than they cannot. (BTW; they never actually have a "real" search warrant in the many bars I have talked to that have experienced this). They also cannot take things from your establishment despite who they work for. That is called "stealing" which is illegal even in Thailand. Next time, don't allow them to search, don't allow them to take anything, and don't go anywhere with them. Take their photos and if they steal something, don't go with them and just call the police to report the theft. The police will only back them up if they can get someone to the station "voluntarily"?!

Yeah right... You ever been to Thailand..

Its the police that are in on this scam.. The police are really going to side with you against other police !! Here the license enforcers come with their paid police assistant. Theres nothing voluntarily about it !!

I would love to see you tell an armed Thai cop he cant do anything.. hel_l they shoot people and nothing happens..

[ScubaBuddha]

Yeah right... You ever been to Thailand..

Its the police that are in on this scam.. The police are really going to side with you against other police !! Here the license enforcers come with their paid police assistant. Theres nothing voluntarily about it !!

I would love to see you tell an armed Thai cop he cant do anything.. hel_l they shoot people and nothing happens..

Yes lots of nonsense in blakegee's post. A search warrant? That's hilarious.

[randomchase]

I think long posts are OK if they generally contain correct spelling, punctuation, capitalization, grammar, and paragraphing.

So I understand you have a bar just playing music? These shakedowns sure seem silly when you can buy bootleg copies so easily in so many places.

I find this topic interesting. These links below might help you. Unfortunately there is a lot of "I heard this or that..." in them, and not much concrete information. I think the authorities rely on the ambiguity so they can create opportunities for themselves to extort you. Your story sounds like legalized kidnapping/ransom really.

Here is a quote from a former tourist police volunteer, simon43, that also owned a bar. It seems the be the best info I have seen yet.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Music-Licenc...nt-t146787.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Copyright-Police-t217155.html

http://www.phuket-info.com/forums/expats/3...sic-piracy.html

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2008/02...yright-seminar/

It is said these people issue the licenses you need:

http://www.1stopmusic.com/tariff.html

An interesting related story:

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2009/02...sed-in-pattaya/

at last, thank you for the links I hope they will give an answer on how to aviod this for those who think they are above the real law,and get scammed . or deliberatly break the law

or refuse to listen to what is required by the law sorry if my grammer etc is not up to your requirements.when i wrote the PLEA i was trying trying to find a way so the bar people can avoid it. I DO NOT HAVE A BAR, i consider them to be be trash for trash of all nationalities. i feel that they have cheapened just about everything ,one can think of, [not a comment on how much, in case it produces some more rubbish] plus the average idiot sat in them thinks he is some mind reading Rambo as do some poster's thanks random p/s the links wont work

[blakegeee]

Yeah right... You ever been to Thailand..

Its the police that are in on this scam.. The police are really going to side with you against other police !! Here the license enforcers come with their paid police assistant. Theres nothing voluntarily about it !!

I would love to see you tell an armed Thai cop he cant do anything.. hel_l they shoot people and nothing happens..

Have I ever been to Thailand??? Do you have any knowledge OR experience to back up your ignorant statements here? Yes, the police are in on the scam obviously but they only back these guys up if they can get somebody down to the police station. There is no arguing with police involved if you don't "voluntarily" go down to the station. The police that go with them to the bar do not get involved. We know a cop personally that had to go with them on one of the nights and he explained it to us. But I guess you'd know better than him because...? Not to mention, when they came to our bar, the single policeman bought a coke, sat down with his back to the situation and did not say a word. The other time when I took all their photos (but not the cop) and they tried to take my camera and then me away, the policeman was nowhere to be seen all of a sudden.

I don't know why I am even arguing with you. "The license enforcers"??? Hahaa! Who do you think they work for, Song, Warner, who? They are not even able to provide any id or evidence to show that they are employed by anybody. One of these gangs claimed to work for RKT which only owns the rights to a few dozen western songs so their Thai entertainers can cover them. And they couldn't even prove that they worked for them anyways.

You can claim to know what's going on with apparently nothing to back up your statements. They got us once when we weren't around or expecting it. We then did our homework and were ready for them to be back. When they came back, we made them go away empty handed and they never came back again. So please explain how you are so more well-informed than me.

[blakegeee]

Yes lots of nonsense in blakegee's post. A search warrant? That's hilarious.

I guess your another one that knows better than police. We talked to a policeman that we know and he said that nobody including police can take things from your bar without a search warrant with the name and address of the property and the names of people allowed to do the search. They must also provide ID to show they the people designated on the warrant. When the police came back we told them that they cannot touch anything without a warrant. Guess what, I am sure you will find this hilarious, they didn't touch anything. They only argued the fact but didn't actually break the law.

They prey on people just letting them do it without trying to stop them. There is another topic on here about an internet shop owner that had a computer seized by these guys and taken to the police station. At the station the computer owner refused to pay until the company/extortionists could prove that they did own the rights to this music. Finally, the police said they would both need to leave and come back tomorrow. They did so and the company still had no evidence or even ID so the owner again refused to pay anything. They were given a chance to come back one more day and the company did not show so the shop owner got her computer back without paying a thing.

[WOOHOO]

Don't want to go down the road that is being well covered in another thread right now, but... It comes down to that same negativity that runs through certain TV members veins.

Why you would basically, call 'Blakegeee' a lier, is beyond me. In your warped realities, is it really that inconceivable that what he has just said is true. The miss conception that every Thai cop is a gun toting, gangster, is one so naive that it totally highlights certain peoples lack of ability to see things with any clarity.

I know I will now get the usual comments from the people who seem to have some sort of tourettes where they can't stop saying the words 'Rose tinted glasses, Rose tinted glasses' over and over again, but why do the people who constantly see things the other way get off scott free. Is there such a saying as '<deleted> tinted glasses'.

The way I see it, I have no reason to disbelieve 'Blakegee's' account, seems perfectly reasonable to me. Will it always happen like that, no. Could there be a time when the cop doesn't sit quietly drinking a coke, but is pis*ed as a newt and starts waving his gun around? yes of course that's a possibility as well. But to assume every Thai cop has the feeling of invincibility, and has no fear what so ever, of what may happen to him if he breaks the law, is ridiculous to say the least. The Thai police are as corrupt as can be, no question, but to insinuate, that they never ever do their job, and only ride around town, committing crime as if they were Billy The Kid, is nonsense.

[LivinLOS]

Have I ever been to Thailand??? Do you have any knowledge OR experience to back up your ignorant statements here? Yes, the police are in on the scam obviously but they only back these guys up if they can get somebody down to the police station. There is no arguing with police involved if you don't "voluntarily" go down to the station. The police that go with them to the bar do not get involved. We know a cop personally that had to go with them on one of the nights and he explained it to us. But I guess you'd know better than him because...? Not to mention, when they came to our bar, the single policeman bought a coke, sat down with his back to the situation and did not say a word. The other time when I took all their photos (but not the cop) and they tried to take my camera and then me away, the policeman was nowhere to be seen all of a sudden.

I don't know why I am even arguing with you. "The license enforcers"??? Hahaa! Who do you think they work for, Song, Warner, who? They are not even able to provide any id or evidence to show that they are employed by anybody. One of these gangs claimed to work for RKT which only owns the rights to a few dozen western songs so their Thai entertainers can cover them. And they couldn't even prove that they worked for them anyways.

You can claim to know what's going on with apparently nothing to back up your statements. They got us once when we weren't around or expecting it. We then did our homework and were ready for them to be back. When they came back, we made them go away empty handed and they never came back again. So please explain how you are so more well-informed than me.

Every time they have pulled this in any of may localles (Patong Kamala Rawai etc) the police are with them at the time !!! Its the police who arrest you.. The polcie are in on the cut.

So if you want to tell the police to produce a search warrant when they come into your bar (or home) please video it, then we can all have a laugh..

[LivinLOS]

Don't want to go down the road that is being well covered in another thread right now, but... It comes down to that same negativity that runs through certain TV members veins.

Why you would basically, call 'Blakegeee' a lier, is beyond me. In your warped realities, is it really that inconceivable that what he has just said is true. The miss conception that every Thai cop is a gun toting, gangster, is one so naive that it totally highlights certain peoples lack of ability to see things with any clarity.

I know I will now get the usual comments from the people who seem to have some sort of tourettes where they can't stop saying the words 'Rose tinted glasses, Rose tinted glasses' over and over again, but why do the people who constantly see things the other way get off scott free. Is there such a saying as '<deleted> tinted glasses'.

Well just having seen it with my own eyes.. You know that old chestnut.. The idea of telling Thai cops to get out if they dont have a warrant.. Nice if you want you bar closed on the dot of midnight and your license under threat.

They also pulled the stunt of claiming the music on the system wasnt covered by 1stop music license, luckily the owners of the bar I was in knew (had been warned by their police handler) and made sure it was.. Any Thai music is very hard to cover as theres multiple license holders.. Very often its a couple of Thai tracks that the staff like that gets people fined. Westn music mostly comes under the 1stop, of course the people doing the fining dont really have a clue whats on there, they just cast as wide a net as possible and shake down those that dont get licensed.

The way I see it, I have no reason to disbelieve 'Blakegee's' account, seems perfectly reasonable to me. Will it always happen like that, no. Could there be a time when the cop doesn't sit quietly drinking a coke, but is pis*ed as a newt and starts waving his gun around? yes of course that's a possibility as well. But to assume every Thai cop has the feeling of invincibility, and has no fear what so ever, of what may happen to him if he breaks the law, is ridiculous to say the least. The Thai police are as corrupt as can be, no question, but to insinuate, that they never ever do their job, and only ride around town, committing crime as if they were Billy The Kid, is nonsense.

All no.. The vast majority in Patong 100%.. Just go interact with them.. Tams bar after 3 or 4am, half pissed cops all joking around with thier guns, Ok when with Thai friends but sod that on my own..

hel_l recently one wanted paying simply to write a police report I needed for a break in, not that they even offered to come and look at the break in mind, just wanted paying for the free report.

[WOOHOO]

Every time they have pulled this in any of may localles (Patong Kamala Rawai etc) the police are with them at the time !!! Its the police who arrest you.. The polcie are in on the cut.

One word answer. Yes or no. Are you saying that you've been in a bar, when it was being raided by the BIB for having no music license, in Patong, Kamala, Rawai, and at least one other place as well?

[LivinLOS]

One word answer. Yes or no. Are you saying that you've been in a bar, when it was being raided by the BIB for having no music license, in Patong, Kamala, Rawai, and at least one other place as well?

Been sat in a bar in Patong when one happened.. Know bar owners who faced the same setup who described it with the police arriving with them in Lala and Rawai..

This isnt just someone wandering round hitting up bars on their own... They have already got a pet policeman who comes with them.. And quite frankly telling a policemen (in patong) to get a warrant while hes arresting you is comedy gold.

[Ping]

It's not at all uncommon. A number of bars at the Patong OTOP were done not all that long ago. A (legitimate) agent for one of the music publishers was down from Bangkok and doing raids accompanied by police. They were not only looking for music being played without the appropriate licence, but also for copied CDs (CD rips, MP3s and the like - although I don't know how they get on with music that is on a computer hard drive or streamed from the Web). Representatives of each bar (not necessarily the owners, but the people in charge of the bars at the time) were taken to the police station and fines had to be paid and licences for that particular agent's company had to be purchased before the bar representatives would be released. The whole thing took about four hours before the bar personnel were released, after payment (for each bar) of (as I recall) a total of roughly B15k each - I believe the actual licence fee depends upon a rather arbitrary measure of the number of seats at the bar. As I recall, there is also a fee per CD (so again, I don't know how they address the situation of Web streaming - probably not permitted). I am also personally aware of them visiting bars in Karon, and they have undoubtedly visited most bars in the popular areas.

I don't know about this business about scams, but I do know that legitimate agents do the rounds (with uniformed police in tow) and that they have the right to enter and seize CDs and equipment without a warrant. So if you try to stand your ground against a legitimate agent, you will undoubtedly find yourself cooling your heels in the cells.

[WOOHOO]

Been sat in a bar in Patong when one happened.. Know bar owners who faced the same setup who described it with the police arriving with them in Lala and Rawai..

This isnt just someone wandering round hitting up bars on their own... They have already got a pet policeman who comes with them.. And quite frankly telling a policemen (in patong) to get a warrant while hes arresting you is comedy gold.

Fair enough. Are you 100% sure though, that these raids in your locals were all scams and not legitimate raids as described by 'Ping'?

[LivinLOS]

Fair enough. Are you 100% sure though, that these raids in your locals were all scams and not legitimate raids as described by 'Ping'?

I dont call them scams.. They are raids.. Tho often the people doing the raid is not legally a representative of the music creator, and they lie and bluster, and money paid only goes as far as them not the artist.. but they have police backup.. So call it a scam or not is up to you..

Just another Thai way of skimming the profits from bars, with police assistance.. Every bar knows it, get licensed or pay the costs..

[WOOHOO]

I dont call them scams.. They are raids.. Tho often the people doing the raid is not legally a representative of the music creator, and they lie and bluster, and money paid only goes as far as them not the artist.. but they have police backup.. So call it a scam or not is up to you..

Just another Thai way of skimming the profits from bars, with police assistance.. Every bar knows it, get licensed or pay the costs..

What you're describing isn't the same as what 'Ping' is describing. I asked you, do you know for sure that the raiders were not legit, in the cases you have a personal knowledge of??

[gotlost]

We in Chiang Mai have already been threw this. Contact the following, obtain the license and watch the imposter's ruin.

http://www.1stopmusic.com/tariff.html

[LivinLOS]

What you're describing isn't the same as what 'Ping' is describing. I asked you, do you know for sure that the raiders were not legit, in the cases you have a personal knowledge of??

What I mean is they claim license over everything, yet they are not the holder of all music licenses, only some (which is then miss representation and not legit) but they dont usually go as far as to define that, only make grand claims and then see who folds and pays..

Last time the one stop people came round (with police) and everyone got fined and or bought a 1stop then a couple of weeks later a new different one came round (with police) claiming to represent different artists.. Its just a case of shake the trees and see what falls.

If you have Thai artists on the juke they are not represented by 1stop, but those are a total mess, theres no one umbrella for them, leaving you constantly exposed. But any Thai rep will likely claim Thai music as under thier umbrella, if it is or not, very hard for us to know or prove. The police back up the rep (cos they are getting their cut) so what can you do ??

[randomchase]

to all posters plus the moderator

looks like it a no win situation. what do you think if there is a radio playing,some phuket island station of which there are many the radio stations have a licence to play This has been my advice in an effort to keep people out of trouble for now, whilse its sorted but i do believe No way ken sir

but as a helper to those in trouble i am trying to save my money random leaveing town

[LivinLOS]

One reason why many bars got the satellite radio, as this was covered..

The big question was web radio.. You have no MP3's on premises.. So by the letter of the law you cant be done (for having unlicensed music on site)..

Then the next way to think is its easy to host your MP3's in another location, and create your own web radio stream.. So thereby bypassing their local files questions..

But thats just one step beyond.. They will find a way to do you..

[ScubaBuddha]

Yes lots of nonsense in blakegee's post. A search warrant? That's hilarious.

I guess your another one that knows better than police. We talked to a policeman that we know and he said that nobody including police can take things from your bar without a search warrant with the name and address of the property and the names of people allowed to do the search. They must also provide ID to show they the people designated on the warrant. When the police came back we told them that they cannot touch anything without a warrant. Guess what, I am sure you will find this hilarious, they didn't touch anything. They only argued the fact but didn't actually break the law.

They prey on people just letting them do it without trying to stop them. There is another topic on here about an internet shop owner that had a computer seized by these guys and taken to the police station. At the station the computer owner refused to pay until the company/extortionists could prove that they did own the rights to this music. Finally, the police said they would both need to leave and come back tomorrow. They did so and the company still had no evidence or even ID so the owner again refused to pay anything. They were given a chance to come back one more day and the company did not show so the shop owner got her computer back without paying a thing.

I don't profess to "know more than cops" but I do know a little as my good friend owns 2 bars here, and I have helped him run them on occasion as well.

Giving us a description of what some cop told you doesn't really amount to much. For example, very often we see these spots in the local rags where a high ranking official is asked a question from a farang about law or a procedure for doing something and the answer the official gives is completely different than what all of us see happening in practice.

The post which I was responding too said that you could tell the cops they were not allowed to enter your bar or touch anything without a warrant. That was the amusing bit. This isn't America, Thai's don't have anywhere near the same rights and protections, but even in the US, where I was a cop, official entities, (which covers a lot of people) do not need a warrant to enter a place of business to check permits, do health inspections, etc. And they can "touch" anything they want. Now, on the issue of seizing items from the premises, I would be more inclined to agree with you. Warrants usually state on them what the cops are authorized to take. Not sure how that is here in the LOS. In Thailand it largely goes back to the cops will simply do what they want. Look at your second paragraph...I don't see any mention of a warrant there, but stuff still got taken, even if they did get it back eventually, I will guarantee you a lot of others don't get it back, or had to pay, even ones that are as savvy about the law as you claim to be.

One other note...cops don't need a warrant if they get permission, so your advice is not bad advice, it's just that it is very likely not going to work even if it did in your case.

Don't want to go down the road that is being well covered in another thread right now, but... It comes down to that same negativity that runs through certain TV members veins.

Why you would basically, call 'Blakegeee' a lier, is beyond me. In your warped realities, is it really that inconceivable that what he has just said is true. The miss conception that every Thai cop is a gun toting, gangster, is one so naive that it totally highlights certain peoples lack of ability to see things with any clarity.

I know I will now get the usual comments from the people who seem to have some sort of tourettes where they can't stop saying the words 'Rose tinted glasses, Rose tinted glasses' over and over again, but why do the people who constantly see things the other way get off scott free. Is there such a saying as '<deleted> tinted glasses'.

The way I see it, I have no reason to disbelieve 'Blakegee's' account, seems perfectly reasonable to me. Could there be a time when the cop doesn't sit quietly drinking a coke, but is pis*ed as a newt and starts waving his gun around? yes of course that's a possibility as well. But to assume every Thai cop has the feeling of invincibility, and has no fear what so ever, of what may happen to him if he breaks the law, is ridiculous to say the least. The Thai police are as corrupt as can be, no question, but to insinuate, that they never ever do their job, and only ride around town, committing crime as if they were Billy The Kid, is nonsense.

I don't think anyone was calling Blakegeee a lier, just uninformed. I don't believe LiLos's comment "Have you even been to Thailand?" was to be taken literally. I certainly never implied Blakegeee was lying. It has been proven time and time again that in Thailand, you simply can not use inductive reasoning to extrapolate from one or two incidents "how it is" in Thailand. To quote you in your last paragraph: "Will it always happen like that, no." We can all agree on that.

"but to insinuate, that they never ever do their job, and only ride around town, committing crime as if they were Billy The Kid, is nonsense."

Hmm...no one said that or, IMO, insinuated it. That's a gross misrepresentation of what was said. It was simply mentioned that the police were in on the scam/manipulation/opportunity whatever you want to call it. Was "rose tinted glasses" even mentioned on this thread? I missed it if it was.

p/s the links wont work

Are you sure? They work for me. The are truncated by Thaivisa to it's possible if you cut and paste them they may not work, although I tried it in Firefox and that still worked. Are you clicking on them or cutting and pasting? If you got an IPS drive error, it was a Thiavisa problem.

Edited March 7, 2010 by ScubaBuddha

[WOOHOO]

What I mean is they claim license over everything, yet they are not the holder of all music licenses, only some (which is then miss representation and not legit) but they dont usually go as far as to define that, only make grand claims and then see who folds and pays..

Last time the one stop people came round (with police) and everyone got fined and or bought a 1stop then a couple of weeks later a new different one came round (with police) claiming to represent different artists.. Its just a case of shake the trees and see what falls.

It's hard to keep up with you sometimes, you go round in circles!!

You pretty much called 'Blakegeee' a lier. In fact not pretty much, you did call him a lier. Now you are saying, when the non legit, (scammers) come around, they are chancing their arms and seeing who, through ignorance and fear will cough up. The police man, who isn't technically breaking the law by just being there, (obviously he would be guilty of assisting in a criminal act under a better legal system) is allowing uneducated people to jump to the wrong conclusion, a time old con trick.

I would like to hazard a guess, that having learned from the first time they came by, the second time 'Blakegee' called their bluff, and it was them who folded. The policeman knowing full well that any actual involvement, turns him from being a mere puppet of illusion, in to a cop committing a serious crime, decides to calmly walk away as the bystander he always was. As I have said before, contrary to popular belief, especially by those who should no better, Thai police, although on the whole are a disgrace, do not operate totally without fear of the repercussions of their criminal actions. Phuket is not the Wild West, and is less lawless (although still very lawless) than people believe.

'Blakegeee', I would happily bet money, was telling the truth.

[WOOHOO]

[i don't think anyone was calling Blakegeee a lier, just uninformed. I don't believe LiLos's comment "Have you even been to Thailand?" was to be taken literally. I certainly never implied Blakegeee was lying. It has been proven time and time again that in Thailand, you simply can not use inductive reasoning to extrapolate from one or two incidents "how it is" in Thailand. To quote you in your last paragraph: "Will it always happen like that, no." We can all agree on that.

"but to insinuate, that they never ever do their job, and only ride around town, committing crime as if they were Billy The Kid, is nonsense."

Hmm...no one said that or, IMO, insinuated it. That's a gross misrepresentation of what was said. It was simply mentioned that the police were in on the scam/manipulation/opportunity whatever you want to call it. Was "rose tinted glasses" even mentioned on this thread? I missed it if it was.

I wrote my post before I read yours.

Nobody actually used the word lier. But I think implying what someone has just told you couldn't have possibly happened, I'm fairly sure amounts to the same thing. Blakegee' told us how it happened. People then said, 'it could never have happened like that, it could have only happened like this'.

My theory was that legitimate agents and rogue agents were being mixed up, and I believe that in the scenario with the rogue agents, that it is very plausible that it could have happened like that, therefor no reason to disbelieve 'Blakegee'

As for my comments about the BIB. I think you will find people implied, that they do what they want, when they want, and they are 100% above the law. So 'gross miss representation' of what was said, I think not.

As for 'Rose tinted specs'. No, nobody has mentioned it in this thread, but only because I got it in first. They would have done at some stage I assure you.

[LivinLOS]

What I mean is they claim license over everything, yet they are not the holder of all music licenses, only some (which is then miss representation and not legit) but they dont usually go as far as to define that, only make grand claims and then see who folds and pays..

Last time the one stop people came round (with police) and everyone got fined and or bought a 1stop then a couple of weeks later a new different one came round (with police) claiming to represent different artists.. Its just a case of shake the trees and see what falls.

It's hard to keep up with you sometimes, you go round in circles!!

You pretty much called 'Blakegeee' a lier. In fact not pretty much, you did call him a lier. Now you are saying, when the non legit, (scammers) come around, they are chancing their arms and seeing who, through ignorance and fear will cough up. The police man, who isn't technically breaking the law by just being there, (obviously he would be guilty of assisting in a criminal act under a better legal system) is allowing uneducated people to jump to the wrong conclusion, a time old con trick.

I would like to hazard a guess, that having learned from the first time they came by, the second time 'Blakegee' called their bluff, and it was them who folded. The policeman knowing full well that any actual involvement, turns him from being a mere puppet of illusion, in to a cop committing a serious crime, decides to calmly walk away as the bystander he always was. As I have said before, contrary to popular belief, especially by those who should no better, Thai police, although on the whole are a disgrace, do not operate totally without fear of the repercussions of their criminal actions. Phuket is not the Wild West, and is less lawless (although still very lawless) than people believe.

'Blakegeee', I would happily bet money, was telling the truth.

I am saying.. That if you dont have a music license, and you have music on premises.. This idea you can tell Thai cops to get out your bar because they dont have a warrant, or they cant confiscate the items concerned.. Is a total joke.. Try it and see how far it goes !!

Yes the system is set up as a semi shakedown.. Yes the police willingly help those shakedows.. Yes any bar owner should have a 1 stop music license and no Thai recordings and no copy CD's etc in the bar.. Failure to comply with those rules leaves you open to the shakedown, whether they actually represent that label or not.

My thoughts clear enough ??

[blakegeee]

" This idea you can tell Thai cops to get out your bar because they dont have a warrant, or they cant confiscate the items concerned.. Is a total joke.."

As I have already mentioned several times, the cops mind their business in the bar. Not sure how I can make this any clearer for you. Would you understand this simple statement if I get it translated into another language for you? The police only start getting involved once the sucker falls for the bait and agrees to go to the station.

I do admit however that I did make a mistake in my one post saying that "When the police came back we told them that they cannot touch anything ..." I meant to just say "extortionists", not "police" as I have already mentioned so many times that the police do not get involved and there is no arguing with police involved. You tell the gang leader that he has no right to touch or take anything unless he has a warrant. These gangs are often called "music police" which is why I made that mistake although these guys are obviously not police at all.

The funny thing is how you keep arguing that I clearly know nothing despite my direct experience in this. Then after all this, you are now saying what I have been saying right from the start. And I repeat, they prey on the uneducated that don't know their rights. You are just wording it slightly different about shaking all the tree to see which ones give something up. You stupidly ask if I have ever been to Thailand? I ask you, have you ever been anywhere other than the cushy west and Thailand? Its not so crazy wild-west-like here. Get over it. Especially if you spend time in Phuket, the most western and regulated part of Thailand, if not all of SE Asia.

Recently in Chiang Mai, we are now only hearing about them targeting establishments with newer owners that aren't wise to their bluff yet. All the more long-term owners are doing the same as me, calling their bluff and the extortionists leave empty handed.

BTW, I have also overheard the versions of what happened in our bar from customers who were there. Those versions are far from the truth and extremely misinterpreted.

As far as playing radio, tv, internet radio etc. it is no different. The radio station has paid for the rights to play this material to you. If you want to play it commercially in a non-domestic environment, than you have to pay for the rights too. As I have said before, it is illegal to play any of these mediums

in a bar or restaurant without paying for the performing rights to do so. These gangs coming around are just extortionists however and do not own the rights to the music any more than you do. They will still try to nail you if you let them even if you have the license as they did to 3 of our neighbors.

Edited March 7, 2010 by blakegeee

[WOOHOO]

My thoughts clear enough ??

Not quite. Getting there though.

You failed miserably with this challenge the last time I put it to you, so have another go.

One word answer, Yes or No.

Do you think 'Blakegeees' account of what happened in his bar is fabricated. Or to put it even more simply. Do you think it's possible, that what 'Blakegeee' said happened, actually happened??

[LivinLOS]

" This idea you can tell Thai cops to get out your bar because they dont have a warrant, or they cant confiscate the items concerned.. Is a total joke.."

As I have already mentioned several times, the cops mind their business in the bar. Not sure how I can make this any clearer for you. Would you understand this simple statement if I get it translated into another language for you? The police only start getting involved once the sucker falls for the bait and agrees to go to the station.

I have watched with my own eyes.. The police be very involved.. Not waiting in the station, but there, making the arrest, taking the people and evidence away.. Dont believe me ?? Read what Ping wrote.. Thats how they do it, cops come, say this ghuy has authority, and if you dont have a license they arrest you and take your stuff. The police do this..

They didnt mind their own business.. They were not waiting in the station.. They were in on it.. And the suggestion of telling them to get out without a warrant, would be pure comedy. If you dont have a license your the one breaking the law.

Edited March 7, 2010 by LivinLOS