Thai Govt Likely To Enforce State Of Emergency On Top Of ISA

[rainman]

Is that your idea of democracy that an angry mob can demand an election anytime they fancy?

Which is equaled by the idea of democracy that the army can pull a military coup anytime they fancy against anyone they fancy.

A very poor argument. First the coup was specifically targetted against Thaksin, not 'anybody'. Second, all the reds have to do is disassociate themselves from Thaksin and thirdly your attempt to whitewash any red violence in advance is silly. Shouting democracy from inside the pocket of Thaksin is not very impressive.

A coup generally targets somebody, you're right. But it still doesn't give you the right to pull off a coup whenever you want. basically what you have is the army ruling the country. The PM is just the puppet and if the army doesn't like him anymore, they'll make another coup and put a new puppet there. Sure, they will let the people vote, but if they don't like the puppet, they'll get rid of the puppet, no matter if the people elected him or not.

[bulmercke]

What a difference twenty-four hours makes. This time yesterday the total number of red shirts in BKK at each of the six meeting points was reported as being woefully low (well less than 10,000 ).

Now with intelligence reporting that there has been a massive increase in numbers over the last twenty-four hours the government - or sources close to it - are reporting that a state of emergency may be declared sometime tomorrow on top of the ISA.

It's still a peaceful demonstration. Up to now there have been absolutely NO reports of violence.

What are the government scared of? Numbers.

Actually the government has been consistently estimating up to 100,000 or more (far less than the 1,000,000 threatened). Yesterday les than 10,000 showed up, that was never touted by the government as the final number. My guess is they can muster no more than 60-70,000.

The demonstrations last Songkran were initially peaceful, and with the redshirts threatening to "paralyze" Bangkok, inciting violence and sedition, I think this is just the calm before the storm.

And guess what. I don't think the government is scared at all. They are letting the redshirts build the momentum to be the instruments of their own destruction, giving them all the rope they need. But when and if the redshirts try to repeat the murders, mayhem, and and other actions of last April the government will be prepared this time. And if that means giving more power and options to the military, then so be it. None of my Thai friends here have an issue with that. So don't bet on the government being scared darling. They're prepared.

QUOTE:"....and if the redshirts try to repeat the murders"

Sorry. What murders? The only murders last April were carried out by the military.

Edited March 13, 2010 by bulmercke

[granuaile]

You clearly don't read the news. The red shirted leaders have made it clear they intend to cripple the city of Bangkok INDEFINITELY by blocking major roads. Is that what you call peaceful, disturbing the lives of millions of people, and potentially crippling the entire country? Get real.

QUOTE(from article):"Veera Musikapong, another leader, will address the rally today and deliver an ultimatum for Abhisit to dissolve the House and call a snap election."

And why not? This is not a democratically elected government. I don't support the red shirts - but having said that you must surely have some concerns about how this governemt came to power in the first place.

Further the army acted extra-judicially in their support last April. I.E. Din Daeng.

Actually, Abhisit was democratically elected. Why not a snap election? Is that your idea of democracy that an angry mob can demand an election anytime they fancy? Under threat of basically destroying the economy of the entire country by blocking the capital indefinitely? I won't use the T word, but I want to.

Last year the Election Committee found the PPP party guilty of election fraud. And very conveniently the Democrat party was given a free reign to form a coalition government in their place. This was all by design.

This was wrong. Very wrong. A snap election should have been held in this situation - just like in the west - but it wasn't.

There appeared to be covert collusion between the courts and the opposition.

All I say is let the red shirts have their day. And in the process - let true democracy have a say - whether that be through civil obedience - peaceful and non-violent - or through civil disobedience - or whatever -

Hmmm free rein? Hardly? The fact is parties that had aligned themselves with the PPP aligned themselves with the Democrats afterward, as elements of the PPP sturning their support to the Democrats. A snap election should have been held? Just like in the West? It sure doesn't happen that way in the US. And why should it here? The Democrats came to power constitutionally and they should never cave in to the mob.

[mca]

A very poor argument. First the coup was specifically targetted against Thaksin, not 'anybody'. Second, all the reds have to do is disassociate themselves from Thaksin and thirdly your attempt to whitewash any red violence in advance is silly. Shouting democracy from inside the pocket of Thaksin is not very impressive.

1) Thailand's had quite a number of coups in the past. Therefore the army can pull a coup against anyone they fancy anytime they fancy. Even their own.

2) I'm sure Aphisit's walking on eggshells looking over his shoulder as well vis a vis the army chucking him out because he blinked when he shouldn't have.

2) Whitewash any red violence in advance? In advance of what? Are they going buck wild at the moment lobbing M-79's in all directions? Must have missed that one on the Nation updates. When these things happen (and I don't mean one goon in a red shirt having a 3rd grade fisticuffs at the side of the road then) I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. A trait I suspect would be missing from many posters on here should it all go peacefully.

[granuaile]

QUOTE:"....and if the redshirts try to repeat the murders"

Sorry. What murders? The only murders last April were carried out by the military.

I see? Where is your proof? You can check news archives and verify my statements. Sorry redshirt propaganda does not count as proof.

Evidently you really were in a hole in the ground someplace last year. The only deaths last year were the result of redshirts driving by a crowd of Bangkok residents opposed to the redshirts coming to their homes, disrupting their lives, destroying their property, attacking mosques in their neighborhoods. Result - two BKK residents standing up for their homes murdered by redshirts. Redshirts who subsequently placed gasoline tankers in from of apartments and threatened to blow them up. By contrast there were no deaths proven to be attributable to the military who exercised considerable restraint.

I suggest you read some news archives from last year and see what happened.

[bulmercke]

QUOTE(from article):"Veera Musikapong, another leader, will address the rally today and deliver an ultimatum for Abhisit to dissolve the House and call a snap election."

And why not? This is not a democratically elected government. I don't support the red shirts - but having said that you must surely have some concerns about how this governemt came to power in the first place.

Further the army acted extra-judicially in their support last April. I.E. Din Daeng.

I see. So you fault the army for moving in and poreventing the disaster that would have occurred if the redshirts had successfully exploded a gasoline tanker in front of residential housing at Dindaeng last April. That seems to be what you are saying. That rather than the army acting to prevent more murders by the redshirts they should have allowed it. Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way, and people here were very happy when the redshirts were run out of BKK.

As for democratically elected, this government was formed just like the redshirt governments, by forming coalitions. The parties in the coalition were composed of individuals elected, so how was it not democratically elected.

Hey granuaile - I agree with you. I abhor violence. But eleven or so red shirts were shot down (fatally) at Din Daeng last April BEFORE any gasoline tanker was comandeered. Who knows what led to what.

This is not a democratically elected government. The red shirts are right in demanding an election.

[mazeltov]

Last year the Election Committee found the PPP party guilty of election fraud. And very conveniently the Democrat party was given a free reign to form a coalition government in their place. This was all by design.

You're right, it was by design. Although not some ridiculous conspiracy theory like you suggest, but because that is how parliamentary systems work. Several groups that had formed a coalition government with the PPP decided to leave the coalition to separate themselves from the corruption of the PPP and decided to form a new coalition with the Democrats. That is how the system is designed, and how it is done in countries throughout the world.

Remember, the PPP were never the majority, they teamed up with smaller factions and formed a coalition government. The Democrats did the same. That is how a parliamentary system works.

that wasn't your usual parliamentary moment that some smaller coalition partner decided to switch sides. major parties don't get so quickly switch off like the PPP and everything continue with new coalition talks. will be hard to find a similar example throughout the world.

to support bulmerckes point: "A snap election should have been held in this situation - just like in the west - but it wasn't." we can refer nobody else but Abhisit himself. what he thought about this, back these days:

Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva on Wednesday urged for House dissolution on the ground that a snap election will allow a fresh start to form a viable government to tackle the political and economic woes. ...

The country will continue to be mired by social divisions if the new prime minister is to repeat the style of leadership that has brought about the political turbulence, he said.

He said he was in favour of the early elections in order to have the leeway in forming the government

read here The Nation December 3, 2008.

did it happen?

[granuaile]

QUOTE(from article):"Veera Musikapong, another leader, will address the rally today and deliver an ultimatum for Abhisit to dissolve the House and call a snap election."

And why not? This is not a democratically elected government. I don't support the red shirts - but having said that you must surely have some concerns about how this governemt came to power in the first place.

Further the army acted extra-judicially in their support last April. I.E. Din Daeng.

I see. So you fault the army for moving in and poreventing the disaster that would have occurred if the redshirts had successfully exploded a gasoline tanker in front of residential housing at Dindaeng last April. That seems to be what you are saying. That rather than the army acting to prevent more murders by the redshirts they should have allowed it. Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way, and people here were very happy when the redshirts were run out of BKK.

As for democratically elected, this government was formed just like the redshirt governments, by forming coalitions. The parties in the coalition were composed of individuals elected, so how was it not democratically elected.

Hey granuaile - I agree with you. I abhor violence. But eleven or so red shirts were shot down (fatally) at Din Daeng last April BEFORE any gasoline tanker was comandeered. Who knows what led to what.

This is not a democratically elected government. The red shirts are right in demanding an election.

And where is your proof?

Here is an article from the time: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/14...cs_30100480.php

[granuaile]

...

Here is an article from the time: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/14...cs_30100480.php

Here is what Human Rights Watch writes in the 2010 World Report:

Street battles erupted in Bangkok on April 13 when UDD protesters, who had been blocking main intersections in Din Daeng district with buses and taxis, attacked approaching soldiers with guns, petrol bombs, and other improvised weapons. UDD protesters also threatened to blow up trucks with liquefied petroleum gas near residential areas and hospitals. Soldiers used teargas and live ammunition to disperse the protesters and clear the blockades; while most gunfire was into the air, some soldiers fired assault rifles directly at the protesters. Clashes spilled across Bangkok through the next day, when two members of neighborhood watch groups were shot dead in a clash with UDD protesters. At least 123 people were injured, including four soldiers wounded by gunshots.

No mention of deaths except from the two killed by red shirts. BTW blogs due not count as proof.

See:

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87403

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%93...olitical_crisis

Edited March 13, 2010 by granuaile

[bulmercke]

...

Here is an article from the time: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/14...cs_30100480.php

Here is what Human Rights Watch writes in the 2010 World Report:

Street battles erupted in Bangkok on April 13 when UDD protesters, who had been blocking main intersections in Din Daeng district with buses and taxis, attacked approaching soldiers with guns, petrol bombs, and other improvised weapons. UDD protesters also threatened to blow up trucks with liquefied petroleum gas near residential areas and hospitals. Soldiers used teargas and live ammunition to disperse the protesters and clear the blockades; while most gunfire was into the air, some soldiers fired assault rifles directly at the protesters. Clashes spilled across Bangkok through the next day, when two members of neighborhood watch groups were shot dead in a clash with UDD protesters. At least 123 people were injured, including four soldiers wounded by gunshots.

No mention of deaths except from the two killed by red shirts. BTW blogs due not count as proof.

See:

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87403

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%93...olitical_crisis

TAN broadcast graphic pictures - live -of dead bodies being loaded onto pickups. I also - personally - spoke to several red shirts the following day who were both over-wrought and extremely upset as a consequence of events that had unfolded earlier in the day at Din Daeng. No mistaking their sincerity and honesty.

They all wanted to impress on me that their colleagues had been shot down.

But - of course - the army - the government - the state controlled media - all have a different story to tell.

[granuaile]

...

Here is an article from the time: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/14...cs_30100480.php

Here is what Human Rights Watch writes in the 2010 World Report:

Street battles erupted in Bangkok on April 13 when UDD protesters, who had been blocking main intersections in Din Daeng district with buses and taxis, attacked approaching soldiers with guns, petrol bombs, and other improvised weapons. UDD protesters also threatened to blow up trucks with liquefied petroleum gas near residential areas and hospitals. Soldiers used teargas and live ammunition to disperse the protesters and clear the blockades; while most gunfire was into the air, some soldiers fired assault rifles directly at the protesters. Clashes spilled across Bangkok through the next day, when two members of neighborhood watch groups were shot dead in a clash with UDD protesters. At least 123 people were injured, including four soldiers wounded by gunshots.

No mention of deaths except from the two killed by red shirts. BTW blogs due not count as proof.

See:

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87403

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%93...olitical_crisis

TAN broadcast graphic pictures - live -of dead bodies being loaded onto pickups. I also - personally - spoke to several red shirts the following day who were both over-wrought and extremely upset as a consequence of events that had unfolded earlier in the day at Din Daeng. No mistaking their sincerity and honesty.

They all wanted to impress on me that their colleagues had been shot down.

But - of course - the army - the government - the state controlled media - all have a different story to tell.

Those allegations were found to be without merit. Because someone said it doesn't make it true. But I think you will agree Human Rights Watch is not controlled by the Thai authorities and is a relatively unbiased source (though I don't always agree with what they consider abuses of human rights). The redshirts are masters of propaganda. The redshirts had been rampaging through BKK for days. My Thai friends were afraid to leave their homes and it was not because of the army they were afraid but because of the redshirts. Early on they were dragging drivers from their cars and beating them at Victory Monument for heckling them. They remind me of the SA in Germany during the 1930s.

[cdnvic]

The topic is the likely enforcement of a state of emergency, not the outcome of elections past. That argument is being carried on ad-nauseum in about ten other topics to no avail. Please stick to the topic.

[helvetian]

Early on they were dragging drivers from their cars and beating them at Victory Monument for heckling them. They remind me of the SA in Germany during the 1930s.

The jews were heckling the SA in Germany?

[cdnvic]

Early on they were dragging drivers from their cars and beating them at Victory Monument for heckling them. They remind me of the SA in Germany during the 1930s.

The jews were heckling the SA in Germany?

He's talking about the tactics of bullying and public displays intended to intimidate in general, not that the situations were exactly the same.

[Jingthing]

Early on they were dragging drivers from their cars and beating them at Victory Monument for heckling them. They remind me of the SA in Germany during the 1930s.

The jews were heckling the SA in Germany?

He's talking about the tactics of bullying and public displays intended to intimidate in general, not that the situations were exactly the same.

I must say, now that we are comparing to Germany, the red shirt thugs really do remind me of Nazi brown shirts. I realize that technically the government is to the right of the Thaksinista red shirts; however, I am only commented on thuggish behavior I have actually witnessed myself of red shirt thugs in Pattaya (and of course the media). I truly believe this is a very dangerous dark force that has been unleashed on this country by Thaksin. Of course, you can only take these comparisons so far, of course, the situations are different.

Regarding the left and right issue, realize that extreme political movements of the left and right are very similar. Hitler sold himself as a POPULIST national socialist; and now we know of course he was a rabid fascist. Similarly, Thaksin has positioned himself as a leftist populist. These right/left labels hardly matter when you are dealing with dictatorial personalities.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Jingthing

[beammeup]

It reminds me of the lord of the rings

[roamer]

Early on they were dragging drivers from their cars and beating them at Victory Monument for heckling them. They remind me of the SA in Germany during the 1930s.

The jews were heckling the SA in Germany?

He's talking about the tactics of bullying and public displays intended to intimidate in general, not that the situations were exactly the same.

I must say, now that we are comparing to Germany, the red shirt thugs really do remind me of Nazi brown shirts. I realize that technically the government is to the right of the Thaksinista red shirts; however, I am only commented on thuggish behavior I have actually witnessed myself of red shirt thugs in Pattaya (and of course the media). I truly believe this is a very dangerous dark force that has been unleashed on this country by Thaksin. Of course, you can only take these comparisons so far, of course, the situations are different.

Regarding the left and right issue, realize that extreme political movements of the left and right are very similar. Hitler sold himself as a POPULIST national socialist; and now we know of course he was a rabid fascist. Similarly, Thaksin has positioned himself as a leftist populist. These right/left labels hardly matter when you are dealing with dictatorial personalities.

The red shirts contain people united for a common goal, where else would you get former communists lined up alongside outright fascists, and of course in between millions of ordinary folk just wanting a better life for themselves, shame that the person they see as their salvation is a liar, megalomaniac, criminal, the etc's are long. The comparisons with the Brownshirt s are valid in my view because if I listen to some of the leaders speeches the rhetoric is not dissimilar, the time and place is different.

the message is the same

[Jingthing]

It is understandable for suffering poor farm workers to fall for a movement like this. But for western people who should know better, who should have been educated about what movements like this can mean, I sincerely don't understand how they can be supportive of it.

[Basil B]

Some pretty uptight views here, but how many people posting actually have the right to vote in an Thai Government election?

[smokie36]

As for democratically elected, this government was formed just like the redshirt governments, by forming coalitions. The parties in the coalition were composed of individuals elected, so how was it not democratically elected.

The government is without doubt legal in a parliamentary sense however they would be on thin ice with any democratic electorate whose majority voted for the other party.

In any sensible country they would have called an early election to give them a moral mandate to run the country but hey ....noses are firmly in the trough here so why bother with what might be the right and proper way of doing things.

Instead we have a mass protest calling for oh lets see ....dissolving the parliament and having a free and fair election....

Ohh those evil red shirts I see...

[cdnvic]

Some pretty uptight views here, but how many people posting actually have the right to vote in an Thai Government election?

People are discussing it from an observers point of view. If one actually had to be capable of direct participation to be able to discuss something, professional sports would not exist.

[Maestro]

I have deleted the off-topic posts that were posted after the public warning posted by cdnvic.

--

Maestro

[Publicus]

I must say, now that we are comparing to Germany, the red shirt thugs really do remind me of Nazi brown shirts. I realize that technically the government is to the right of the Thaksinista red shirts; however, I am only commented on thuggish behavior I have actually witnessed myself of red shirt thugs in Pattaya (and of course the media). I truly believe this is a very dangerous dark force that has been unleashed on this country by Thaksin. Of course, you can only take these comparisons so far, of course, the situations are different.

Regarding the left and right issue, realize that extreme political movements of the left and right are very similar. Hitler sold himself as a POPULIST national socialist; and now we know of course he was a rabid fascist. Similarly, Thaksin has positioned himself as a leftist populist. These right/left labels hardly matter when you are dealing with dictatorial personalities.

The red shirts contain people united for a common goal, where else would you get former communists lined up alongside outright fascists, and of course in between millions of ordinary folk just wanting a better life for themselves, shame that the person they see as their salvation is a liar, megalomaniac, criminal, the etc's are long. The comparisons with the Brownshirt s are valid in my view because if I listen to some of the leaders speeches the rhetoric is not dissimilar, the time and place is different.

the message is the same

The straight line political spectrum which has left and right at the extreme ends easily can become a circle which when closed joins the left and right together as one and the same. This is what we see with Thaksin and his Redshirts. The PAD meanwhile is simply a mangling of Plato's Republic into an attempt to preserve the ancien regime.

Present Thai leaders such as Abhisit and Korn et al are perhaps a somewhat intermediate transitional generation which, we could hope, over more time could produce better leaders of quality, which would mark a sharp or even radical departure from the class of political tyrants that defined politics/government post WW2 and from the class of political clowns that have defined politics and government post the Vietnam War.

Even if Abhisit were dumped (fell on his sword) as a consequence of present Redshirt campaigning, and if he were to be succeeded by say, Chuan, even that would represent a better quality of leadership than exists in parliament whether the present one or in a propesctive one.

It however remains necessary to declare the State of Emergency so that Thaksin and his Redshirst can be swept aside once and for all. Only then can the dispossessed rural poor begin to regroup, reorganize and find among themselves a Lech Walesa or a Valcav Havel, or an Aung San Su Kyi.......a Nelson Mandella or a Barak Obama is I'm afraid beyond the capabilities of Thai culture, society or civilization for at least another 50 or 75 years.

[BSJ]

From my point of view a declaration of "A State of Emergency" is a risky move for the people in power. When you consider the facts it might backfire on the present government and lead to a split in the army. Non-commissioned officers and other ranks would be made up of a large number of men who come from rural areas. And for a soldier to take up arms against his own people....thats a he11 of a thing to ask, and tough for them to do.

And those same soldiers may well ask, why are we so hard on the Reds when last year the Yellows did what they did with impunity?

[WeeGB]

It reminds me of the lord of the rings

Thaksin wants his preciousssss.

[khunjamespittman]

It seems like the one who most seriously cannot cope with being out of power is the megalomaniac in this drama -- THAKSIN. He wants it back at ANY price. No matter that he is destroying Thailand. Frankly, he is outrageous. The majority of people in Thailand clearly want this man to be stopped. The government if they can succeed soon in crushing the Thaksinista movement forever will indeed be doing the will of the people.

If you are so absolutely sure of the numbers, Why not just go ahead and hold elections now and get it over with? It seems this is what is being asked for.

[yoshiwara]

Reichstag Fire Decree

The Reichstag Fire Decree (German: Reichstagsbrandverordnung) is the common name of the Order of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State (German: Verordnung des Reichspräsidenten zum Schutz von Volk und Staat) issued by German President Paul von Hindenburg in direct response to the Reichstag fire of 27 February 1933. The decree nullified many of the key civil liberties of German citizens. With Nazis in powerful positions in the German government, the decree was used as the legal basis of imprisonment of anyone considered to be opponents of the Nazis, and to suppress publications not considered "friendly" to the Nazi cause.

...

On the evening of 27 February 1933 — six days before the parliamentary election — fire broke out in the Reichstag chambers. While the exact circumstances of the fire remain unclear to this day, what is clear is that Hitler and his supporters quickly capitalized on the fire as a means by which to speed their consolidation of power. Seizing on the burning of the Reichstag building as the supposed opening salvo in a communist uprising, the Nazis were able to throw millions of Germans into a convulsion of fear at the threat of Communist terror. The official account stated:

The burning of the Reichstag was intended to be the signal for a bloody uprising and civil war. Large-scale pillaging in Berlin was planned.... It has been determined that ... throughout Germany acts of terrorism were to begin against prominent individuals, against private property, against the lives and safety of the peaceful population, and general civil war was to be unleashed....

The decree, officially the Verordnung des Reichspräsidenten zum Schutz von Volk und Staat (Order of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State), invoked the authority of Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution which allowed the Reichspräsident to take any appropriate measure to remedy dangers to public safety.

The decree consisted of six articles. Article 1 suspended most of the civil liberties set forth in the Weimar Constitution — freedom of the person, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the right of free association and public assembly, the secrecy of the post and telephone, not to mention the protection of property and the home. Articles 2 and 3 allowed the Reich government to assume powers normally reserved for the federal states. Articles 4 and 5 established draconian penalties for certain offenses, including the death penalty for arson to public buildings. Article 6 simply stated that the decree took effect on the day of its proclamation.

Text of the decree

Order of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State

On the basis of Article 48 paragraph 2 of the Constitution of the German Reich, the following is ordered in defense against Communist state-endangering acts of violence:

§ 1. Articles 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124 and 153 of the Constitution of the German Reich are suspended until further notice. It is therefore permissible to restrict the rights of personal freedom [habeas corpus], freedom of opinion, including the freedom of the press, the freedom to organize and assemble, the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications, and warrants for house searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.

Effects

The decree was not accompanied by any written guidelines from the Reich government; this omission gave wide latitude in interpreting the decree to Nazis like Göring, who as Prussian interior minister was in authority over the police forces in Germany's largest province. The Länder not yet in the Nazis' grasp largely restricted themselves to banning the Communist press, Communist meetings and demonstrations, and detaining leading KPD officials. In Prussia, however, summary arrests of KPD leaders were common, thousands were imprisoned in the days following the fire, and the total number of arrests in Prussia on the basis of the Reichstag Fire Decree in the two weeks following 28 February is believed to be in the vicinity of 10,000.

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_Fire_Decree

There are always those who have a fetish with some past aspect of history and in this case the prism is Germany in the 1930s. Not only a poor eurocentric understanding of history (actually just wikipedia with bold underpinnings) but no doubt a prelude to a desperate attempt to elevate Thaksin to er who? Marlene Dietrich? Winston Churchill? Charlie Chaplin? What planet are these reds on?

[khunjamespittman]

I must say, now that we are comparing to Germany, the red shirt thugs really do remind me of Nazi brown shirts. I realize that technically the government is to the right of the Thaksinista red shirts; however, I am only commented on thuggish behavior I have actually witnessed myself of red shirt thugs in Pattaya (and of course the media). I truly believe this is a very dangerous dark force that has been unleashed on this country by Thaksin. Of course, you can only take these comparisons so far, of course, the situations are different.

Regarding the left and right issue, realize that extreme political movements of the left and right are very similar. Hitler sold himself as a POPULIST national socialist; and now we know of course he was a rabid fascist. Similarly, Thaksin has positioned himself as a leftist populist. These right/left labels hardly matter when you are dealing with dictatorial personalities.

The red shirts contain people united for a common goal, where else would you get former communists lined up alongside outright fascists, and of course in between millions of ordinary folk just wanting a better life for themselves, shame that the person they see as their salvation is a liar, megalomaniac, criminal, the etc's are long. The comparisons with the Brownshirt s are valid in my view because if I listen to some of the leaders speeches the rhetoric is not dissimilar, the time and place is different.

the message is the same

The straight line political spectrum which has left and right at the extreme ends easily can become a circle which when closed joins the left and right together as one and the same. This is what we see with Thaksin and his Redshirts. The PAD meanwhile is simply a mangling of Plato's Republic into an attempt to preserve the ancien regime.

Present Thai leaders such as Abhisit and Korn et al are perhaps a somewhat intermediate transitional generation which, we could hope, over more time could produce better leaders of quality, which would mark a sharp or even radical departure from the class of political tyrants that defined politics/government post WW2 and from the class of political clowns that have defined politics and government post the Vietnam War.

Even if Abhisit were dumped (fell on his sword) as a consequence of present Redshirt campaigning, and if he were to be succeeded by say, Chuan, even that would represent a better quality of leadership than exists in parliament whether the present one or in a propesctive one.

It however remains necessary to declare the State of Emergency so that Thaksin and his Redshirst can be swept aside once and for all. Only then can the dispossessed rural poor begin to regroup, reorganize and find among themselves a Lech Walesa or a Valcav Havel, or an Aung San Su Kyi.......a Nelson Mandella or a Barak Obama is I'm afraid beyond the capabilities of Thai culture, society or civilization for at least another 50 or 75 years.

Please don't wish an Obama on any country. There's not enough money in the whole for that. He' spent more in 1 year than all the other presidents combined.

[smokie36]

It seems like the one who most seriously cannot cope with being out of power is the megalomaniac in this drama -- THAKSIN. He wants it back at ANY price. No matter that he is destroying Thailand. Frankly, he is outrageous. The majority of people in Thailand clearly want this man to be stopped. The government if they can succeed soon in crushing the Thaksinista movement forever will indeed be doing the will of the people.

If you are so absolutely sure of the numbers, Why not just go ahead and hold elections now and get it over with? It seems this is what is being asked for.

We all know the answer to this one....

[ding]

Some pretty uptight views here, but how many people posting actually have the right to vote in an Thai Government election?

People are discussing it from an observers point of view. If one actually had to be capable of direct participation to be able to discuss something, professional sports would not exist.