Dwindling Thai Protesters Bid To Keep Up Spirits

[webfact]

Dwindling Thai protesters bid to keep up spirits

by Thanaporn Promyamyai

BANGKOK (AFP) - Red-clad Thai anti-government protesters promised entertainment for the crowds Thursday in a bid to boost dwindling numbers at their rally, vowing to step up demonstrations at the weekend.

The supporters of deposed premier Thaksin Shinawatra have so far failed in their drive to bring down the government, despite headline-grabbing symbolic blood protests and a 100,000-strong demonstration at its peak on Sunday.

Police said 38,000 "Red Shirts" remained at their main rally site in Bangkok's government quarter late Wednesday as many returned to their homes in rural provinces, some having been in the capital for five days.

But the group's leaders remained defiant, announcing a day of meetings throughout Thursday to discuss tactics, followed by an evening of music and dancing -- apparently designed to keep spirits and numbers high.

"We will have cultural performances on this stage from each region, in order to strengthen relationships of our Red Shirt people," leader Nattawut Saikur told the crowds Wednesday evening.

He said the protest, which has been overseen by a massive contingent of security forces, would on Saturday "spread out on every road across Bangkok to appeal to more people to join us".

"We are ready to prolong our rally until we win," Nattawut added.

The Reds are campaigning to bring down the government of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, which came to power via a December 2008 parliamentary vote after a controversial court ruling ousted Thaksin's allies.

The mainly poor and rural followers of Thaksin, a billionaire telecoms tycoon who lives abroad to avoid a jail term for corruption, fervently support the populist policies he introduced before his ouster in a 2006 coup.

Despite waning numbers, their rally paralysed streets on Wednesday as most of the group left their base for Abhisit's house, at which some threw bags of protesters' blood.

It was their third display of crimson anger since Tuesday, when they pressed their demand for Abhisit's resignation by collecting 300 litres (more than 600 US pints) of their own blood, some of which was poured at his office gates.

Government reaction to the bloody spectacles has been muted, but a minister attached to the prime minister's office on Wednesday said it was "uncivilised".

"Blood is a symbol of violence and hurling it at the house is saddening. The prime minister is speechless over this incident," Satit Wongnhongtaey told reporters.

On Wednesday Abhisit flew to Thailand's far south, where a six-year separatist insurgency is raging. Satit said intelligence reports had repeatedly warned of assassination attempts on Abhisit.

Some of the Reds delivered a letter to the British embassy in Bangkok Wednesday, saying they wanted to counter false British media reports about the protests.

Later a larger group peacefully picketed the US embassy, delivering a second letter of protest after unsubstantiated rumours that US intelligence officers had bugged a phone call of Thaksin and accused him of inciting violence.

Montenegrin police confirmed on Wednesday that Thaksin himself was in Montenegro, having travelled there on March 13 from Dubai.

-- ©Copyright AFP 2010-03-18

Published with written approval from AFP.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[Naam]

"We will have cultural performances on this stage from each region, in order to strengthen relationships of our Red Shirt people," leader Nattawut Saikur told the crowds Wednesday evening."

[whistleblower]

So Thaksin lied again!!! He told his sheep sorry followers he was in Switzerland.

[animatic]

So Thaksin lied again!!! He told his sheep sorry followers he was in Switzerland.

And Germany.

When lies become your life, it becomes a compulsion to keep the stories straight.

But it's a losing battle too.

[trogers]

When lies become your life, it becomes a compulsion to keep the stories straight.

Cannot blame him fully. He was born with a square face. Google for the Chinese belief about traits of people with square faces.

[quiksilva]

Ok so Saturday's 'class war' should now read as "join our street party, we have food and folk music, red shirt and blood donation optional, although you might have to wave a flag every now and then"

[slapout]

So Thaksin lied again!!! He told his sheep sorry followers he was in Switzerland.

And Germany.

When lies become your life, it becomes a compulsion to keep the stories straight.

But it's a losing battle too.

The majority of liars seem to have a glaring flaw, they seem to have a bad/selective memory, thus they get caught out quite often with their porkies. Thaksin would seem to fall into this category and with recent out bursts/statements/ramblings, indications are, that he is rapidly groping for the bottom of the ranking in this group. Guess he could spin this and claim a number 1 ranking, for his twitter/press releases.

[Wossnext]

I wonder if Thaksin donated some of his own blood for the cause.........yeh right! somebody should make a short movie about this, it reads like another team america plot albeit on a smaller scale. I can just picture that Thaksin puppet now, jumping up and down in his 7 star hotel like a demented monkey screaming for the downfall of the government and demanding his old job back

[SpoliaOpima]

What a joke. The Reds claim to represent a majority of Thais, yet can only muster 10% of the promised attendance in their invasion of Bangkok.

[Thailand]

The reds should now move on.

They have proven they are potential force to reckon with in the future and they can do it without the embarrassment of Thaksin.

Elections will not be too far away as the government will consider they have won this round so the reds should be planning for them and really showing what they are capable of.

It is very likely that IF the elections are above board then they, the red faction and who they represent, will probably win so in the interim they need to be focusing on finding and promoting a new figurehead.

[Guest]

The problem with that is, that the whole red shirt organisation exists only to put Taksin and his cronies back into power.

[kurtgruen]

The problem with that is, that the whole red shirt organisation exists only to put Taksin and his cronies back into power.

The other problem is, that they cannot get the people to come out and vote for them, without major vote buying. Now that there are fairly strict rules, against vote buying, we could be back to the same situation, shortly after the election, if they do manage to win. I do think that the dynamics will be different next time, because Newin has seperated himself from the Red clan for now and there is quite a bit of division, among the Reds. On the other side, you have the New Politics Pary, which will take some votes from the Democrat strongholds. It should prove to be an interesting election, though.

I look forward to the day, when there will be no more vote buying. I am probably dreaming, but I do hope, that one day it will happen. (and yes, I realize, that it's not just the Reds, who are buying votes.)

Maybe, one day, the poor and working poor, will be educated enough, to vote, just because they want to make a difference and to have their vote counted. Hopefully, by that time, there will be somebody to vote for, who will stand up for their cause.

[Lodestone]

The problem with that is, that the whole red shirt organisation exists only to put Taksin and his cronies back into power.

At the moment. But undoubtedly there are also a great many red shirts who actually believe in their ideals of democracy and fair representation, along with their local leaders, both established and emerging.

It's easy to look at the past few days' rally as an utter failure or even a joke, but it's assembly and organization has shown how much is possible. At this point I think it's just as easy to see what's happened as a point for future growth rather than any final flame out. And this growth could include simply strongly competing in the next, not too far off, election.

[Thaddeus]

Ok so Saturday's 'class war' should now read as "join our street party, we have food and folk music, red shirt and blood donation optional, although you might have to wave a flag every now and then"

Come to the dark side, we have cookies.

[elcent]

Give 'em a break!

[CMFarang]

It would be nice to see a Government here actually help the people , across the whole country.

SCHOOLS - need improvement, nothing that any past Gov. here has done to any real success , just look at Vietnam 20 years ago and today. Vietnam was far behind Thailand's Educational system 20 year back , and dwarf them now, and look at their economy grow as a result. Having only one Self Proclaimed Intelligent Man in the Country who will think for everyone is not enough.

The elite choose to speak English and are educated Outside of Thailand ??

MEDICAL - Sure , 30 baht if you go back to where you came from for some good old Home Style Doctoring , and Sawan Forbid you actually need any advanced treatment only available outside of the Moo Ban.

LANGUAGE - Now , trying not to offend here, BUT do you know how much effort it takes to learn to Read and Write Thai , a Language used by a Very Tiny Population in the world as a whole? "Apart from traveling in Thailand or on the borders of its neighbors, speaking Thai is not particularly useful," The school system spent so much time teaching my daughter Thai , they seemed to have no time for Geography, History or advance maths , Let alone Computer skills at 1 hour a week.

ORANGE SHIRTS - Red and Yellow make Orange , a True Thai Color in the Future ?

[Thai at Heart]

It would be nice to see a Government here actually help the people , across the whole country.

SCHOOLS - need improvement, nothing that any past Gov. here has done to any real success , just look at Vietnam 20 years ago and today. Vietnam was far behind Thailand's Educational system 20 year back , and dwarf them now, and look at their economy grow as a result. Having only one Self Proclaimed Intelligent Man in the Country who will think for everyone is not enough.

The elite choose to speak English and are educated Outside of Thailand ??

MEDICAL - Sure , 30 baht if you go back to where you came from for some good old Home Style Doctoring , and Sawan Forbid you actually need any advanced treatment only available outside of the Moo Ban.

LANGUAGE - Now , trying not to offend here, BUT do you know how much effort it takes to learn to Read and Write Thai , a Language used by a Very Tiny Population in the world as a whole? "Apart from traveling in Thailand or on the borders of its neighbors, speaking Thai is not particularly useful," The school system spent so much time teaching my daughter Thai , they seemed to have no time for Geography, History or advance maths , Let alone Computer skills at 1 hour a week.

ORANGE SHIRTS - Red and Yellow make Orange , a True Thai Color in the Future ?

All very relevant.

It is amazing to me, that when you consider how the urban population has exploded in the last 20 years, and yet there has been virtually no new schools created to house and educate the kids. I asked my wife who comes from up country how many new schools had been built in her town in the last 20 years and she couldn't think of any.

[webfact]

Roads opened through Red-shirt protest as reinforcements arrive

BANGKOK: -- The number of people at the main red-shirt stage at Phan Fa Bridge is considerably smaller today, Thursday, with some protesters having returned home, some off seeing the sites of Bangkok and others sheltering in the shade of their tents from the blistering 35C (95F) heat.

More than 100 buses carrying in excess of 3,000 fresh protesters arrived at the rally site from the north and northeast of Thailand earlier this morning and these fresh protesters are now resting at the Rama V monument and at Sanam Luang after their overnight journey.

The buses that brought the reinforcements have not returned home to their place of origin and will stay parked near the rally site until the protest is over.

The decreased level of interest in the continuous flow of speakers has allowed roads adjacent to and passing over Phan Fa bridge to re-open to traffic, with the red-shirts’ guards guiding cars, motorbikes and tuk-tuk’s through the normally busy intersection.

Key red-shirt leaders are currently not on-site at Phan Fa Bridge after addressing the protesters until the early hours of this morning, but are expected to return this afternoon and this evening where the numbers attending the rally typically swell by between 5,000 and 10,000 additional people.

Photos © Thaivisa.com 2010

-- thaivisa.com 2010-03-18

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[jamesjdaly]

You know what's coming next! The Civil Rights march in Londonderry in 1969 helped relaunch the IRA. This UDD protest could spark a very sinister element.

[Dodobird]

So Thaksin lied again!!! He told his sheep sorry followers he was in Switzerland.

same same with the democrat's spokemen who original said that T was in cambodia but the truth was... apparently they don't blink their eyes when they lied over and over again

[scorecard]

It would be nice to see a Government here actually help the people , across the whole country.

SCHOOLS - need improvement, nothing that any past Gov. here has done to any real success , just look at Vietnam 20 years ago and today. Vietnam was far behind Thailand's Educational system 20 year back , and dwarf them now, and look at their economy grow as a result. Having only one Self Proclaimed Intelligent Man in the Country who will think for everyone is not enough.

The elite choose to speak English and are educated Outside of Thailand ??

MEDICAL - Sure , 30 baht if you go back to where you came from for some good old Home Style Doctoring , and Sawan Forbid you actually need any advanced treatment only available outside of the Moo Ban.

LANGUAGE - Now , trying not to offend here, BUT do you know how much effort it takes to learn to Read and Write Thai , a Language used by a Very Tiny Population in the world as a whole? "Apart from traveling in Thailand or on the borders of its neighbors, speaking Thai is not particularly useful," The school system spent so much time teaching my daughter Thai , they seemed to have no time for Geography, History or advance maths , Let alone Computer skills at 1 hour a week.

ORANGE SHIRTS - Red and Yellow make Orange , a True Thai Color in the Future ?

All very relevant.

It is amazing to me, that when you consider how the urban population has exploded in the last 20 years, and yet there has been virtually no new schools created to house and educate the kids. I asked my wife who comes from up country how many new schools had been built in her town in the last 20 years and she couldn't think of any.

Well I wonder how many people read the last announcement by PM Abhisit about education.

He fairly opened (but politely) says that there should have been massive education development for decades and that the recent moves to upgrade schools, equipment, and methodology has not achieved very much.

Which is why he has appointed a committee of credible people (not beuarocrats) to develop a new vision and mssion for education for all areas of Thailand and to oversee it's implementation and the committee has enormous power to act.

Two of my colleagues, highly credible and insightful Thai educators, both of whom have experienced education abroad for long periods are on the committee. They are both very polite and to some extent patient but they will never be sidelined by beaurocats, delays, etc.

They are both determined that they, with the other committee members, will quickly made positive changes, and are determined that the improvements will benefit all Thais regardless of location.

Also, PM Abhisit announced several months ago that education to the end of high school would be free and that all kids would get free uniforms etc etc.

(Members might like to also note that several years back, with loud announcements. thaksin appoined himself education minister and announced that he would upgrade everything to international standards quickly. Six months later after having achieved nothing he announced he was too busy and appointed one of his yes men leeches to the minister posiition, someone with no knowledge, no experience, no capability whatever in this field.)

[hammered]

You know what's coming next! The Civil Rights march in Londonderry in 1969 helped relaunch the IRA. This UDD protest could spark a very sinister element.

More thsan a few analysts are also mentioning the "split" as a precursor of this. We will see.

Edited to add: Bussing people in has the advatage of he who controls the bus controls when people can go home to a large degree. The pick up thing looked right imprerssive but of course pick up drivers can up and off whenever they want, and often pick ups are someone's livelihood. Pick ups also tend to lead to overestimating numbers as they take up a lot of space and judging how many one carries is difficult (watching the parsade form the north many pick ups had nobody in the back) where as buses make number reckoning a lot easier.

The reds are seemingly trying to settle in and do a PAD now. However, that tactic didnt work for the PAD and they were forced to use extreme tactics which were dramatic but ended up losing support. It remains to be seen whether the reds will start getting a nightly barrage of grenades as the PAD suffered too.

Edited March 18, 2010 by hammered

[jdinasia]

I wonder if Thaksin donated some of his own blood for the cause.........yeh right! somebody should make a short movie about this, it reads like another team america plot albeit on a smaller scale. I can just picture that Thaksin puppet now, jumping up and down in his 7 star hotel like a demented monkey screaming for the downfall of the government and demanding his old job back

Thaksin made sure none of HIS blood was in the country this whole time!

[scorecard]

Ok so Saturday's 'class war' should now read as "join our street party, we have food and folk music, red shirt and blood donation optional, although you might have to wave a flag every now and then"

On, so now it's a 'class war'.

What will it be next week - 'committe to demand that the guiness book of records appoint jatuporn and followers as the chamions of som tum' Maybe they could also take this, with their paid mob, to the front gates of the US and the UK embassies.

[selftaopath]

The problem with that is, that the whole red shirt organisation exists only to put Taksin and his cronies back into power.

The other problem is, that they cannot get the people to come out and vote for them, without major vote buying. Now that there are fairly strict rules, against vote buying, we could be back to the same situation, shortly after the election, if they do manage to win. I do think that the dynamics will be different next time, because Newin has seperated himself from the Red clan for now and there is quite a bit of division, among the Reds. On the other side, you have the New Politics Pary, which will take some votes from the Democrat strongholds. It should prove to be an interesting election, though.

I look forward to the day, when there will be no more vote buying. I am probably dreaming, but I do hope, that one day it will happen. (and yes, I realize, that it's not just the Reds, who are buying votes.)

Maybe, one day, the poor and working poor, will be educated enough, to vote, just because they want to make a difference and to have their vote counted. Hopefully, by that time, there will be somebody to vote for, who will stand up for their cause.

What a wonderful dream. I too hope this for the wonderful Thai people. If I live another 100 years in (Land of Scams) I doubt I will see this dream become a reality. Will the average Thai ever have real representation? Humn.???????

[jdinasia]

It would be nice to see a Government here actually help the people , across the whole country.

SCHOOLS - need improvement, nothing that any past Gov. here has done to any real success , just look at Vietnam 20 years ago and today. Vietnam was far behind Thailand's Educational system 20 year back , and dwarf them now, and look at their economy grow as a result. Having only one Self Proclaimed Intelligent Man in the Country who will think for everyone is not enough.

The elite choose to speak English and are educated Outside of Thailand ??

MEDICAL - Sure , 30 baht if you go back to where you came from for some good old Home Style Doctoring , and Sawan Forbid you actually need any advanced treatment only available outside of the Moo Ban.

LANGUAGE - Now , trying not to offend here, BUT do you know how much effort it takes to learn to Read and Write Thai , a Language used by a Very Tiny Population in the world as a whole? "Apart from traveling in Thailand or on the borders of its neighbors, speaking Thai is not particularly useful," The school system spent so much time teaching my daughter Thai , they seemed to have no time for Geography, History or advance maths , Let alone Computer skills at 1 hour a week.

ORANGE SHIRTS - Red and Yellow make Orange , a True Thai Color in the Future ?

All very relevant.

It is amazing to me, that when you consider how the urban population has exploded in the last 20 years, and yet there has been virtually no new schools created to house and educate the kids. I asked my wife who comes from up country how many new schools had been built in her town in the last 20 years and she couldn't think of any.

Well I wonder how many people read the last announcement by PM Abhisit about education.

He fairly opened (but politely) says that there should have been massive education development for decades and that the recent moves to upgrade schools, equipment, and methodology has not achieved very much.

Which is why he has appointed a committee of credible people (not beuarocrats) to develop a new vision and mssion for education for all areas of Thailand and to oversee it's implementation and the committee has enormous power to act.

Two of my colleagues, highly credible and insightful Thai educators, both of whom have experienced education abroad for long periods are on the committee. They are both very polite and to some extent patient but they will never be sidelined by beaurocats, delays, etc.

They are both determined that they, with the other committee members, will quickly made positive changes, and are determined that the improvements will benefit all Thais regardless of location.

Also, PM Abhisit announced several months ago that education to the end of high school would be free and that all kids would get free uniforms etc etc.

(Members might like to also note that several years back, with loud announcements. thaksin appoined himself education minister and announced that he would upgrade everything to international standards quickly. Six months later after having achieved nothing he announced he was too busy and appointed one of his yes men leeches to the minister posiition, someone with no knowledge, no experience, no capability whatever in this field.)

Hey now .... remember the laptop promise that started with Kanchanaburi? Thaksin accomplished a lot for education! (Oh wait -- he accomplished nothing but did buy some votes in the West with a promise that he never fulfilled!)

[ballpoint]

In our part of the country, they are now offering 300 baht per passenger, plus fuel expenses, to anyone who drives their pickup truck to Bangkok. This is in addition to the 500 baht paid to all who turn up. A truck owner can make 3000 baht for bringing in 10 people, plus 500 a day for however long he stays in Bangkok. Good money for these people, so you can't really blame them for taking it, but it does make a mockery of the reds claims that they're turning all up because of their principles. Still, not too many taking them up on their offer. Seems some people just don't know when they have lost. Just like their dear leader in that respect. I'd still like to see an international news team take a neutral translater along and randomly question protestors as to why they are there, and what they want to happen if Abhisit did step down.

[Thai at Heart]

Well I wonder how many people read the last announcement by PM Abhisit about education.

He fairly opened (but politely) says that there should have been massive education development for decades and that the recent moves to upgrade schools, equipment, and methodology has not achieved very much.

Which is why he has appointed a committee of credible people (not beuarocrats) to develop a new vision and mssion for education for all areas of Thailand and to oversee it's implementation and the committee has enormous power to act.

Two of my colleagues, highly credible and insightful Thai educators, both of whom have experienced education abroad for long periods are on the committee. They are both very polite and to some extent patient but they will never be sidelined by beaurocats, delays, etc.

They are both determined that they, with the other committee members, will quickly made positive changes, and are determined that the improvements will benefit all Thais regardless of location.

Also, PM Abhisit announced several months ago that education to the end of high school would be free and that all kids would get free uniforms etc etc.

(Members might like to also note that several years back, with loud announcements. thaksin appoined himself education minister and announced that he would upgrade everything to international standards quickly. Six months later after having achieved nothing he announced he was too busy and appointed one of his yes men leeches to the minister posiition, someone with no knowledge, no experience, no capability whatever in this field.)

I did notice yesterday whilst attending my kids parents teacher meetings that there is another new curriculum on the way. I don't lay the blame for all the failures at Thaksin's feet. Many politicians have had the fingers in the education pie over the years. I wish Abhisit all the best in his endeavours.

What is obvious though is that there has been a massive under investment in everything including at a basic level buildings. The sheer level of investment that is required to raise the amount of space for schools is going to be very costly. Of course, we won't ask why the defence budget dwarfs the education budget. Can you imagine how much construction and investment would be needed to get classroom sizes down from 45/50 to 20?

[CMFarang]

" new vision and mssion for education for all areas of Thailand" - sounds like OLD Promises , in which Century do you think these may be implemented?

"Thai educators, both of whom have experienced education abroad" - since there seems to be very little advanced education available here

"they will never be sidelined by beaurocats, delays" - Then they will have to just quit ??

"all kids would get free uniforms etc " - Draconian Militaristic Uniforms and Hair Cuts , Let them children know they will never have a personal choice or voice. These have been done away with in all but Private Institutions in most of the World. I call themLittle Soldiers, and my Thai wife agrees it is moronic.

I will not hold my breath in hopes of any change. Action do speak louder than words, and Thailand's most Valuable Asset , it's Children are are being wasted and we all suffer as a result.

What we need are people with an education , who have Children in the Thai school system , to see the flaws as they emerge on a regular basis. More Externally Educated Thai Citizens is not the answer.. This is Thailand, not America or Europe, we need local insight. All I ever see is some Foreign educated Thai, taking an Idea that they can make $ from, and Basterizing(sp) it.. While they send Police and Politicians to do their dirty work.

I will Believe when I see...

Not before.

Talk and Type are cheap , we have both proven that..

I love the Thai's and Pity them at the hands of the so called Foreign educated Leaders. Hogswash or Hogswart..

Edited March 18, 2010 by CMFarang

[scorecard]

Well I wonder how many people read the last announcement by PM Abhisit about education.

He fairly opened (but politely) says that there should have been massive education development for decades and that the recent moves to upgrade schools, equipment, and methodology has not achieved very much.

Which is why he has appointed a committee of credible people (not beuarocrats) to develop a new vision and mssion for education for all areas of Thailand and to oversee it's implementation and the committee has enormous power to act.

Two of my colleagues, highly credible and insightful Thai educators, both of whom have experienced education abroad for long periods are on the committee. They are both very polite and to some extent patient but they will never be sidelined by beaurocats, delays, etc.

They are both determined that they, with the other committee members, will quickly made positive changes, and are determined that the improvements will benefit all Thais regardless of location.

Also, PM Abhisit announced several months ago that education to the end of high school would be free and that all kids would get free uniforms etc etc.

(Members might like to also note that several years back, with loud announcements. thaksin appoined himself education minister and announced that he would upgrade everything to international standards quickly. Six months later after having achieved nothing he announced he was too busy and appointed one of his yes men leeches to the minister posiition, someone with no knowledge, no experience, no capability whatever in this field.)

I did notice yesterday whilst attending my kids parents teacher meetings that there is another new curriculum on the way. I don't lay the blame for all the failures at Thaksin's feet. Many politicians have had the fingers in the education pie over the years. I wish Abhisit all the best in his endeavours.

What is obvious though is that there has been a massive under investment in everything including at a basic level buildings. The sheer level of investment that is required to raise the amount of space for schools is going to be very costly. Of course, we won't ask why the defence budget dwarfs the education budget. Can you imagine how much construction and investment would be needed to get classroom sizes down from 45/50 to 20?

Good points. The investment needed is massive and it will clearly need to over an extended period, no country could afford the needed investment over a short time span.

For many years (from the Chula and other surveys):

- The police has been the most corrupt ministry

- Followed closely by the education ministry in second place.

Students at my son's university have protested many times about the totally blatant and open siphoning of budget funds, etc. It's a smaller government university, many of the buildings are falling down and have had no maintenance for decades. For some classes my son sits in a hall which has three and a half walls, the other half of one wall has fallen down, probably ten years ago.

The library is a total joke and the staff are totally unpleasant and unhelpful, canteen etc., facilities are from the dickens era and would not pass even the most cursory of health inspections. The IT facilities are sparse, ten years behind the times, and everything is broken and there has been no budget for repair or upgarde for many years.

But just recently a six story massive luxury building has been completed 'The Office of the President'.

One of the reasons why PM Abhisit fomed a powerful new education committee was in fact the corruption part.

It is true that thaksin alone cannot be blamed for poor education and lack of development, and it's also true that many past governments who took no action for decades have strong country bases. All seems a little ironic.

Edited March 18, 2010 by scorecard