Thai Red Shirts Declare 'Class War'

[animatic]

Abhisit is playing his cards well. However, I'd suggest that he do one or two tangible things for the types of people who are attending the rallies. An example within the education sphere; allowing last year's books to be used by current year students. Currently, all students in Thailand must purchase brand new books every year. What happens to prior years' books? I don't know. Just by allowing books to be carried over, would save each student's family about Bt.1,200. Same could be done for uniforms and shoes. Additionally, nearly every family with school kids is essentially forced (peer pressure) to purchase brand new uniforms and shoes each year for school. By allowing 2nd hand uniforms, that would save each family about another Bt.1,200/year per student. A poor family with 4 kids could conceivably save around Bt.10,000 annually by just those two measures.

School children already get an allowance for uniforms & text books are now free as part of the new education policy. I feel improving the quality of teaching & stopping rote learning would pay handsome dividends in the future. They need to arrest the declining average IQ, provide more moral & ethical guidance (after all the leaders in society are generally not ideal role models).

Television is an invaluable tool & if programming could be geared to reinforce the positive qualities rather than the mindless greed & power plays that pervade in the current entertainment model there would be a gradual improvement (anything like this would need to be sanook in order to maintain interest). Most importantly provide the poorer sections of society with good programmes that will enable them to stand on their own without having to resort to free handouts or be at the mercy of loan sharks.

Excellent posts and totally constructive comments, especially compared to CLODs

simple minded rebranding and distraction posts. These get to the core of the issue,

not gloss it over with simple repeated propaganda phrasologies.

Edited March 20, 2010 by animatic

[tharae]

He means that what he hears, doesn't reflect the reality we know exists back in the states.

There is something that isn't registering, like many people seem to think the Internet,

Television and Hollywood Personalities are 'Americans in general'. When at best they are

caricatures or archetypes writ large. Or that, for a glaring example, Bush was elected

and kept in office by a majority of Americans, and so we ALL think like that...

Just like Thaksin it was really a minority segment, that managed to get enough votes by hook or crook.

Those that have actually been there and traveled any amount there are not like this.

Though of they stayed regional they often adopt regional stereotypes attitudes vs other sections

He doesn't mean an inability to take criticizm from friendly allies, which Bush had in spades,

but that many of our allies citizens, clearly have misshapen images of what life in America is actually like.

OK, I get it. It's just as well that many Americans don't have a jaunduce view of their allies then.

Crocodile Dundee signing off.

[jayboy]

Just an historical correction:

French Revolution has started in Paris, by demonstrations from Paris suburb to Versailles palace where the French Monarchy was installed. It was the artisans managed by some middle Class leaders like Danton, Robespierre..... Later on, the French Revolution has been obliged to set up 5 Armies to tame the peasants who were supporting the aristocracy. The Military campaign against the peasants remains very famous because it has been very bloody in Vendee and Britanny.

In 1830, (what is called les 3 Glorieuses), again it is Paris which was leading the revolt. and in 1870, again a Paris's revolt against the Middle Class "Les Versaillais". Paris was under Prussian occupation and fully besieged, the "Commune" was communicating with the rest of the Country by pigeons, they tried to get the peasants moving... it has been unsuccessful and the Commune finished in a huge killings (around 10,000 "communards" shot on the "Mur des Federes").

So sorry but the French peasants are not at the origin of the French Revolution, on contrary they were opponents.

Thank you for pointing this out, identifying a very common error that has been bandied around by the ignorant.It's actually very relevant to the Thailand situation.The peasantry by its very nature tends to be very conservative, supporting the status quo except when its very personal position is threatened.In the eyes of the conservative elite, the peasantry should be expected to live their lives frugally down on the farm while slavishly accepting the established order.None of this is possible now as Thai society has fragmented and even archetype "peasants" now have links into the society at large.Many were struck during the Red rally in Bangkok what a generally friendly reception they got from the population at large, including many ostensibly middle class people.One presumes that at least one factor is that so many urban dwellers have recent rural family links.

[animatic]

Artificially created fragmentation of course.

Someone is purposely fragmenting the population

while purposely he never cured the real problems while in office.

Divide and conquer via perceptions.

[Samuian]

Just an historical correction:

French Revolution has started in Paris, by demonstrations from Paris suburb to Versailles palace where the French Monarchy was installed. It was the artisans managed by some middle Class leaders like Danton, Robespierre..... Later on, the French Revolution has been obliged to set up 5 Armies to tame the peasants who were supporting the aristocracy. The Military campaign against the peasants remains very famous because it has been very bloody in Vendee and Britanny.

In 1830, (what is called les 3 Glorieuses), again it is Paris which was leading the revolt. and in 1870, again a Paris's revolt against the Middle Class "Les Versaillais". Paris was under Prussian occupation and fully besieged, the "Commune" was communicating with the rest of the Country by pigeons, they tried to get the peasants moving... it has been unsuccessful and the Commune finished in a huge killings (around 10,000 "communards" shot on the "Mur des Federes").

So sorry but the French peasants are not at the origin of the French Revolution, on contrary they were opponents.

Thank you for pointing this out, identifying a very common error that has been bandied around by the ignorant.It's actually very relevant to the Thailand situation.The peasantry by its very nature tends to be very conservative, supporting the status quo except when its very personal position is threatened.In the eyes of the conservative elite, the peasantry should be expected to live their lives frugally down on the farm while slavishly accepting the established order.None of this is possible now as Thai society has fragmented and even archetype "peasants" now have links into the society at large.Many were struck during the Red rally in Bangkok what a generally friendly reception they got from the population at large, including many ostensibly middle class people.One presumes that at least one factor is that so many urban dwellers have recent rural family links.

Extraordinary assumptions are reflected in these notions,

are they the results of a consultation with delphian oracle?

The "peasantry" has simply no time, nor the understanding of what,

is going on why and what all this is exactly all about!

If they would, another large majority loss for the reds and maybe very. very

unruly times ahead!

What happens here and now is the purest form of populism, being spread,

with the bluntest lies knitted together to build a framework which may seem believable.

Would the people from "Nakhon Nowhere" really understand who is wrestling whom here,

and why, the red movement would be down to a trickle....

The red movement only claims to be the defender of the Xxxxxxxy and Democracy!

If so, why don't they simply form a party and go ahead, the democratic way?

Why they are defending and keep promoting a fugitive,

who tries to undermine with all means the sovereignty of

a democratic government?

And keep claiming they aren't supporting his case and possible return to power,

what are these lies for, why the deceit?

And yes, Mr.Thaksin remains a fugitive until proven innocent and cleared of

all accusations!

And this in a court of law, not just by wiping it off the table or simple claims as "honest mistakes"!

This "class war" is made up, there is no "class war", not in Thai-Society.

(at least not yet, heavens beware of that!)

It's a publicity stunt, the only way Mr.Thaksin can sell himself as the "savior" of the poor,

whose voices he ONLY needs to give him their votes, for this he would do anything,

as this is the only way he maybe able to get back onto the helm.... which fades away day by day.

And for a couple of 100 Baht, anyone from the remote rural areas from Thailand would

go out of their way - and this is called EXPLOITATION of the feeble and has NOTHING,

none at all to do with democratic means, honest campaigning, it's instrumentalization of

the people!

The people need urgently good information, they need to be informed on what i going on why..

and here the story hit's the snare, the major obstacle for an open debate about..... what is going on why!

This is what Thailand and it's rural citizenry needs, political Education and proper Information!

The dilemma has been home bred since..... ''Class war" is a marketing slogan,

it adds some drama to Mr.Thaksins crusade of misleading the rural folks, besides luring

them into the dream world of untold riches and wealth for everybody.... it's sad, really!

Edited March 20, 2010 by Samuian

[jayboy]

Extraordinary assumptions are reflected in these notions,

are the results of a consultation with delphian oracle?

The "peasantry" has simpy no time, nor the understanding of what,

is going on why and what all this is exactly all about!

If they would, another large majority loss for the reds!

It's the purest form of populism, being spread, with the bluntest lies

knitted together to build a framework which may seem believable.

Would the people from "Nakhon Nowher really understand who is wrestling whom here,

the red movement would be down to a trickle....

The red movement only claims to be the defender of the Xxxxxxxy and Democracy!

If so, why don't they simply form a party and go ahead in the democratic way?

Why they are defending and keep promoting a fugitive,

who tries to undermine with all means the sovereignty of

a democratic government?

And yes, Mr.Thaksin remains a fugitive until proven innocent and cleared of

all accusations!

This incoherent and predictably ignorant rant is probably not worth commenting on but for its representation of quite a widely held set of views.This type of person is obsessed with Thaksin to the point of bringing him into every discussion - even where he's not or only partially relevant.He's often mistaken for a prime mover as opposed to a catalyst or opportunist.In brief if the elite hadn't fuc_ked up so badly a chancer like Thaksin wouldn't have been able to dominate as he did.The political space, Abhisit and the more decent Democrats are now scrambling for, would have already been captured.The complexity and fragmentation of Thai society has all sorts of ramifications, as does the impact of globalization.Unfortunately this is often lost on those who think of Thai politics and society in infantile terms.The old order in Thailand is doomed and the elite's middle class hangers on better get used to the idea.(The more intelligent already have).I suspect what set off this person's rant was my comment about the generally friendly reception given by the Bangkok population to the red demonstrators.Personally what I find objectionable is the hateful assumption that the rural majority is unable to think in terms of decency and morality.I don't think we have yet reached the point of a class war in Thailand yet though the elements are there.To prevent it rquires goodwill and generosity of spirit from all sides, and the willingness to settle for the broadly acceptable rather than the ideal.

[Thai at Heart]

Artificially created fragmentation of course.

Someone is purposely fragmenting the population

while purposely he never cured the real problems while in office.

Divide and conquer via perceptions.

The fragmentation may be purposely created or not. There was however, something odd that happened during Thaksin's time in office.

The creation of the "Hi-so" was the rebirth of confidence amongst the monied but non-elite of Bangkok. I remember watching some bizarre television programmes a few years ago which were in such bad taste that they were horrible to watch. One of them was a reality programme where they took the self-titled "hi-so" and took them into the countryside to grow rice. It was ghastly television as these idiots furiously fanned themselves and complained about how hard life was, worrying about getting a sun tan and getting the occasional blister.

The second was hosted by some supposedly "hi-so" kids travelling the country to see how staples of the Bangkok diet made it from farm to shop front. These kids yomped through orchards and occasionally forests picking food, then processing it, shipping it all whilst mopping their brow complaining about how hard life was, pining for their maids and AC in Bangkok.

The birth of the "hi-so" was the start of this recent fragmentation and as a title goes it to me is ghastly.

[jayboy]

Artificially created fragmentation of course.

Someone is purposely fragmenting the population

while purposely he never cured the real problems while in office.

Divide and conquer via perceptions.

Is it possible to get a more ludicrous interpretation of the changing shape of Thai society?

Forget globalization, industrialisation, the evolving economy of rural Thailand, commodity exports, the rise of China.It's all about Thaksin.

Should one mock these geniuses or ignore them?

[way2muchcoffee]

This incoherent and predictably ignorant rant is probably not worth commenting on but for its representation of quite a widely held set of views.This type of person is obsessed with Thaksin to the point of bringing him into every discussion - even where he's not or only partially relevant.

Why must you insult people who disagree with you? You do this frequently. Does it make your argument stronger?

Edited March 20, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Jerrytheyoung]

The situation in Thailand today cannot be compared to the french situation more than 200 years ago.

Most of Issan farming family has some links with Bankokians, because they are obliged to send the youngers to "Krunthep". Taxis, clothes factories, electronic factories, spas...are utilising this poorly qualified workforce.

So peasants and low bangkokian class are united through families.

Education is a very important aspect, but is only one issue of the problem. A policy must be developed including also other aspects: development of Agriculture in order to set it at international standards, irrigation, delocalisation of Industry in the stricken area in order to fix the population and avoid to cumulate the issues in Bangkok and its suburb (which will be probably far more expansive than the delocalisation)....and immediately some measures to subsidise the Northern population (Rice and Rubber prices)...a very significant part of the budget must be dedicated to the development of the Northern regions and not all in the development of an Huge Bangkok: there is a frustrating imbalance, the creation of such a megapole is in itself very dangerous and bring forward huge social issues far more complex than the current ones....

[hammered]

Artificially created fragmentation of course.

Someone is purposely fragmenting the population

while purposely he never cured the real problems while in office.

Divide and conquer via perceptions.

The fragmentation may be purposely created or not. There was however, something odd that happened during Thaksin's time in office.

The creation of the "Hi-so" was the rebirth of confidence amongst the monied but non-elite of Bangkok. I remember watching some bizarre television programmes a few years ago which were in such bad taste that they were horrible to watch. One of them was a reality programme where they took the self-titled "hi-so" and took them into the countryside to grow rice. It was ghastly television as these idiots furiously fanned themselves and complained about how hard life was, worrying about getting a sun tan and getting the occasional blister.

The second was hosted by some supposedly "hi-so" kids travelling the country to see how staples of the Bangkok diet made it from farm to shop front. These kids yomped through orchards and occasionally forests picking food, then processing it, shipping it all whilst mopping their brow complaining about how hard life was, pining for their maids and AC in Bangkok.

The birth of the "hi-so" was the start of this recent fragmentation and as a title goes it to me is ghastly.

Funny how Thaksin created the hi-so and the lo-so stuff in many ways. Obviosuly they existed before but were not really identiifed. I think the hi-so in Thaksins time also included a lot of the new rich which were maybe more confident to come out at that point. After all Thaksin was one of them. A more brash kind of rich

I remember seeing things you refer to and cringing

I also rememeber when a motorcycle taxi guy won an early big brother and refused to become a movie star and after that nobody of that class was allowed on agaian

[jayboy]

This incoherent and predictably ignorant rant is probably not worth commenting on but for its representation of quite a widely held set of views.This type of person is obsessed with Thaksin to the point of bringing him into every discussion - even where he's not or only partially relevant.

Why must you insult people who disagree with you? You do this frequently. Does it make your argument stronger?

It's not personal but ignorance needs to be identified and corrected.

[Thai at Heart]

Artificially created fragmentation of course.

Someone is purposely fragmenting the population

while purposely he never cured the real problems while in office.

Divide and conquer via perceptions.

The fragmentation may be purposely created or not. There was however, something odd that happened during Thaksin's time in office.

The creation of the "Hi-so" was the rebirth of confidence amongst the monied but non-elite of Bangkok. I remember watching some bizarre television programmes a few years ago which were in such bad taste that they were horrible to watch. One of them was a reality programme where they took the self-titled "hi-so" and took them into the countryside to grow rice. It was ghastly television as these idiots furiously fanned themselves and complained about how hard life was, worrying about getting a sun tan and getting the occasional blister.

The second was hosted by some supposedly "hi-so" kids travelling the country to see how staples of the Bangkok diet made it from farm to shop front. These kids yomped through orchards and occasionally forests picking food, then processing it, shipping it all whilst mopping their brow complaining about how hard life was, pining for their maids and AC in Bangkok.

The birth of the "hi-so" was the start of this recent fragmentation and as a title goes it to me is ghastly.

Funny how Thaksin created the hi-so and the lo-so stuff in many ways. Obviosuly they existed before but were not really identiifed. I think the hi-so in Thaksins time also included a lot of the new rich which were maybe more confident to come out at that point. After all Thaksin was one of them. A more brash kind of rich

I remember seeing things you refer to and cringing

I also rememeber when a motorcycle taxi guy won an early big brother and refused to become a movie star and after that nobody of that class was allowed on agaian

I don't know if Thaksin was responsible for creating them, but without doubt the "hi-so" identified and created themselves only in the last few years. The funny thing was that they simply named "themselves" as "hi-so" and the only necessary qualification was money.

This is why I laugh when people say that simply because Thaksin had money he was elite, this is so wrong it is laughable. One need only scan the pages of the magazines to work out who are the real insiders and who the wannabees. Elite is elite, for want of a better description, and no amount of money can buy your way in. True class doesn't need to talk about how much money they have. Hi-so is simply an wannabee elitest who doesn't get invited to all the really big parties.

[jayboy]

The situation in Thailand today cannot be compared to the french situation more than 200 years ago.

Most of Issan farming family has some links with Bankokians, because they are obliged to send the youngers to "Krunthep". Taxis, clothes factories, electronic factories, spas...are utilising this poorly qualified workforce.

So peasants and low bangkokian class are united through families.

Education is a very important aspect, but is only one issue of the problem. A policy must be developed including also other aspects: development of Agriculture in order to set it at international standards, irrigation, delocalisation of Industry in the stricken area in order to fix the population and avoid to cumulate the issues in Bangkok and its suburb (which will be probably far more expansive than the delocalisation)....and immediately some measures to subsidise the Northern population (Rice and Rubber prices)...a very significant part of the budget must be dedicated to the development of the Northern regions and not all in the development of an Huge Bangkok: there is a frustrating imbalance, the creation of such a megapole is in itself very dangerous and bring forward huge social issues far more complex than the current ones....

Fair comment but I think the integration of Bangkok and the N.E as gone much further than you suggest, that is beyond the provision of low skilled labour.One can argue about the extent of this but not about the trend which is clearly towards further and closer integration.I don't think subsidies have a major role to play in the countryside but certainly the subsidies (education, infrastructure, health) to the pampered middle class urban population should be reduced and eventually eliminated.

[way2muchcoffee]

It's not personal but ignorance needs to be identified and corrected.

That's not true. You are making it personal by insulting people. If your points are valid then make them and let them stand on their own.

[Netfan]

Artificially created fragmentation of course.

Someone is purposely fragmenting the population

while purposely he never cured the real problems while in office.

Divide and conquer via perceptions.

Is it possible to get a more ludicrous interpretation of the changing shape of Thai society?

Forget globalization, industrialisation, the evolving economy of rural Thailand, commodity exports, the rise of China.It's all about Thaksin.

Should one mock these geniuses or ignore them?

You are ignoring a fact - Thaksin was PM for five years, with an overwhelming mandate from the public. What did he do for the poor while in office? Funneled money thru the village headmen (no wonder they love him) for some roads to be paved. 30 baht health care plan with no long term planning. What about education? The guy appointed himself Minister of Ed - what positive changes did he bring? All these changes the Red supporters are screaming for the current government to implement - why didn't Thaksin address them while he had the chance? Maybe because he was too busy lining his own pockets and he really couldn't give a s^*t about the poor, except that he knows he can manipulate them.

[hammered]

Artificially created fragmentation of course.

Someone is purposely fragmenting the population

while purposely he never cured the real problems while in office.

Divide and conquer via perceptions.

The fragmentation may be purposely created or not. There was however, something odd that happened during Thaksin's time in office.

The creation of the "Hi-so" was the rebirth of confidence amongst the monied but non-elite of Bangkok. I remember watching some bizarre television programmes a few years ago which were in such bad taste that they were horrible to watch. One of them was a reality programme where they took the self-titled "hi-so" and took them into the countryside to grow rice. It was ghastly television as these idiots furiously fanned themselves and complained about how hard life was, worrying about getting a sun tan and getting the occasional blister.

The second was hosted by some supposedly "hi-so" kids travelling the country to see how staples of the Bangkok diet made it from farm to shop front. These kids yomped through orchards and occasionally forests picking food, then processing it, shipping it all whilst mopping their brow complaining about how hard life was, pining for their maids and AC in Bangkok.

The birth of the "hi-so" was the start of this recent fragmentation and as a title goes it to me is ghastly.

Funny how Thaksin created the hi-so and the lo-so stuff in many ways. Obviosuly they existed before but were not really identiifed. I think the hi-so in Thaksins time also included a lot of the new rich which were maybe more confident to come out at that point. After all Thaksin was one of them. A more brash kind of rich

I remember seeing things you refer to and cringing

I also rememeber when a motorcycle taxi guy won an early big brother and refused to become a movie star and after that nobody of that class was allowed on agaian

I don't know if Thaksin was responsible for creating them, but without doubt the "hi-so" identified and created themselves only in the last few years. The funny thing was that they simply named "themselves" as "hi-so" and the only necessary qualification was money.

This is why I laugh when people say that simply because Thaksin had money he was elite, this is so wrong it is laughable. One need only scan the pages of the magazines to work out who are the real insiders and who the wannabees. Elite is elite, for want of a better description, and no amount of money can buy your way in. True class doesn't need to talk about how much money they have. Hi-so is simply an wannabee elitest who doesn't get invited to all the really big parties.

True

They even have a magzine called Hi-So party every month available in book shops! It is quite tacky (no pun intended)

[Pakboong]

Abhisit is very clever.

He has offered the reds dialogue towards an agreement.

That wasn't on the red's (sorry, Thaksin's) game plan.

The game plan was to force the PM to resign.

Then the reds claim success.

Then the reds go to victory.

Unreal but there it is.

However, in reality it is the reds who have been defeated.

Abhisit's offer is splitting the reds.

Some want to get real and say yes.

Some want to say no.

The No's will be split.

Some want to continue the struggle, the 'class struggle' as the new direction.

They want to force the PM out, no deal, keep the demos going.

Some want to say no not because they want to keep on the same track, but because they are now staring at defeat.

Electoral defeat.

They need to regroup.

Unfortunately, the realistic group and the soft No's do not represent Thaksin's will.

His will is to continue full tilt.

They are falling apart.

Have you ever considered writing Hip Hop or Rap music. Your written communication style suggests you may have a knack for it. Sorry for the off topic post.

[Jerrytheyoung]

About Education...

One post (I was looking after but cannot find it), was stating that the children were spending most of their study time learning Thai particularly because the writing is very complex. So, they have no time for other studies and the result is quite poor, underlining the fact that they are isolated from the rest of the world in this Globalisation period.

I would like to make a parallel and a suggestion to my Thai friends.

Long time ago, Korea has a similar issue: they have their own language (turco-Altaic group) quite different from Chinese but were obliged to use the Chinese ideogram for writing. The King Sejong found that only an Elite was able to communicate by writing, it was unacceptable. He created a Committee for solving this issue. In 1452, the Committee presented its report and proposal: the "Hangul" a phonetic alphabet comprising 11 vowels and 13 consonants. The Elite fought against the introduction of Hangul during more than a Century. Today the Koreans are quite proud of the "Hangul" which is one of the most performing alphabet in the world.

Similarly, the Japanese, more recently, have simplified their ideograms...

May I suggest to my Thai Friends to look after this issue and make some researches in order to modernise their writing to the benefit of most of the future population.....

[jayboy]

All these changes the Red supporters are screaming for the current government to implement

The current government is copying and implementing a great many of Thaksin's populist policies.

I'm always puzzled at the criticism that a politician didn't "really" care about his constituents but just wanted to win votes.Isn't that what politicians do? Do Obama, Sarkozy,Brown "really" care? Certainly it requires a real stretch of imagination to believe that even a good guy like Abhisit "really" cares about the rural majority.

[Jerrytheyoung]

A Great Leader has to listen more to his opponents than to his friends; (Machiavel- The Prince-)

What is important?

My point of view: that the idea I support is implemented.

The person who is doing it is less important than the result as it impacts a whole population.

[ballpoint]

Fair comment but I think the integration of Bangkok and the N.E as gone much further than you suggest, that is beyond the provision of low skilled labour.One can argue about the extent of this but not about the trend which is clearly towards further and closer integration.I don't think subsidies have a major role to play in the countryside but certainly the subsidies (education, infrastructure, health) to the pampered middle class urban population should be reduced and eventually eliminated.

And doesn't anyone wonder just where this "pampered" middle class came from? And why it is growing? The fact is that many of the rural poor are not as trapped as some of the posters here would have us believe. I see it all around me, where many parents save what they can in order to send the eldest child to a "good" school, and a place at the local Rajabhat institute. That child then gets a job earning a little more than they otherwise would. Money is sent back towards the education of their younger siblings, they meet and marry someone in a similar situation, their children get to go to a slightly better school, and so it goes on. You don't need a violent revolution to make a drastic change to society. You need a government that is not ripping the poor off, a well policed set of labour laws and a strong education system. Look at the UK around the time of the industrial revolution. Many very poor, a few very rich exploiting them, a ruling class assured of parliamentry seats by the simple fact that their tenant farmers had to vote for them. Any similarities? But then look at what happened. In the words of Melvyn Bragg in "12 books that changed the world" "The industrial revolution accelerated and integrated a vast social transformation which has gone global". A typical factory owner is described "(His) employees worked from six in the morning to seven at night, six days a week. He would not employ children under six which was considered, by some, to be almost enlightened. Two thirds of his workforce were children and he was reluctant to emply anyone over forty". Sounds like some of the bars in Pattaya. I believe that Thailand is, like much of the developing world, at the point now. Change is taking place, believe it or not, and it doesn't take the loss of innocent lives to be effected.

[animatic]

Artificially created fragmentation of course.

Someone is purposely fragmenting the population

while purposely he never cured the real problems while in office.

Divide and conquer via perceptions.

The fragmentation may be purposely created or not. There was however, something odd that happened during Thaksin's time in office.

The creation of the "Hi-so" was the rebirth of confidence amongst the monied but non-elite of Bangkok. I remember watching some bizarre television programmes a few years ago which were in such bad taste that they were horrible to watch. One of them was a reality programme where they took the self-titled "hi-so" and took them into the countryside to grow rice. It was ghastly television as these idiots furiously fanned themselves and complained about how hard life was, worrying about getting a sun tan and getting the occasional blister.

The second was hosted by some supposedly "hi-so" kids travelling the country to see how staples of the Bangkok diet made it from farm to shop front. These kids yomped through orchards and occasionally forests picking food, then processing it, shipping it all whilst mopping their brow complaining about how hard life was, pining for their maids and AC in Bangkok.

The birth of the "hi-so" was the start of this recent fragmentation and as a title goes it to me is ghastly.

Any one that would copy Paris Hiltons 'The Simple Life' as what a Hiso / Loso interface might be,

deserves all the slagging that can be applied. Reality is more often than not a trainwreck of galactic proportions.

Good taste has NOTHING to do with it.

[frodo]

According to the Post, one of the red leaders is now asking that the reds don't pay taxes and to surrender their ID cards and resign their Thai citizenship. I guess they would then be here illegally. They can move onto Dubai and stay at their leaders home. He loves them and should be able to take great care of them.

[animatic]

He means that what he hears, doesn't reflect the reality we know exists back in the states.

There is something that isn't registering, like many people seem to think the Internet,

Television and Hollywood Personalities are 'Americans in general'. When at best they are

caricatures or archetypes writ large. Or that, for a glaring example, Bush was elected

and kept in office by a majority of Americans, and so we ALL think like that...

Just like Thaksin it was really a minority segment, that managed to get enough votes by hook or crook.

Those that have actually been there and traveled any amount there are not like this.

Though of they stayed regional they often adopt regional stereotypes attitudes vs other sections

He doesn't mean an inability to take criticizm from friendly allies, which Bush had in spades,

but that many of our allies citizens, clearly have misshapen images of what life in America is actually like.

OK, I get it. It's just as well that many Americans don't have a jaunduce view of their allies then.

Crocodile Dundee signing off.

Certainlt Pub and I would both agree there are idioticly myopic and parochial Americans,

who don't even see the full width of plurality in their own state, let alone the whole country.

All nations have pinheads residing within.

[rametindallas]

djees, nice forum , you type a name wrong (esp) and your post got delllleted... oh typo.. also delete ?

Please repost without the misspelling and typo. Your input is as valuable as anyone else's here.

[Jerrytheyoung]

According to the Post, one of the red leaders is now asking that the reds don't pay taxes and to surrender their ID cards and resign their Thai citizenship. I guess they would then be here illegally. They can move onto Dubai and stay at their leaders home. He loves them and should be able to take great care of them.

It has been already underlined that Thailand is the result of a recent unification process of something like 70 small states, Kingdoms... So some nostalgics may express themselves in such circumstances and dream to come back to the situation 'Ante".

It is not realistic

[Pakboong]

As a mere Farang worker in this country I am told to shut my mouth and if I don't like it - leave.

I am harassed by all levels of Govt employees at Immigration regarding continuing renewal of my Visa.

I go to my bank and they do not have sufficient cash to meet a withdrawal slip and now I make phone calls in advance so they can meet it.

I cannot own a house but can own a condo provided the majority in the building is owned by Thais but where to put two kids and a wife in a Condo?

I cannot send money to my offshore requirements to meet credit card payments without providing a statement and proof of who I am even when I have a local bank account.

Banks won't lend me money as a medium income earner so I cannot expand my business - I simply have to pay cash

I employ 4 permanents and look after my staff. I employ 100 at a time on contract - yet I am looked upon as elite or with ATM stamped on my forehead

I have a Thai family and le-kreung kids but cannot get PR without paying for the privilege yet all are dependents on my ability to support them

And now I have to put up with rabble who are being manipulated by a convicted criminal who 'was' part of the elite they so badly oppose, who are all but stopping my possible income to my business as I only deal with international clients bringing money into Thailand, who are being warned by Embassies and bloated media reports that Thailand is not safe...

From me, my family and kids, wake up Thailand. Look at what you have and work to improve it. Complaints and protests manipulated by power brokers who care nothing about you, democracy and have greed as their motivational factor, are destroying Thailand in the eyes of the world and if you don't care, try being a foreigner living in another country and see how this rubbish affects you as right now I have to play by your rules and whilst I can't change them - I sure as hel_l can have my say!

Chinese like Abhisit and Thaksin have managed to work around this problem. If you start now, perhaps your grandchildren can benifit from your efforts. The Chinese have patience that most of the rest of us do not have. It clearly works to their advantage.

[Netfan]

All these changes the Red supporters are screaming for the current government to implement

The current government is copying and implementing a great many of Thaksin's populist policies.

I'm always puzzled at the criticism that a politician didn't "really" care about his constituents but just wanted to win votes.Isn't that what politicians do? Do Obama, Sarkozy,Brown "really" care? Certainly it requires a real stretch of imagination to believe that even a good guy like Abhisit "really" cares about the rural majority.

yes, this govt is putting in place many of the populist programs that Thaksin's govt came up with- why weren't they already in place? Thaksin talked, aside from some minor programs and the 30 baht scheme, never followed thru, or the programs were corrupted by local officials- something this govt is trying to address - perhaps thats why they are meeting such resistance to the rice program. As for most politicians not caring - couldn't agree more. However, Thaksin is calling on "his" people to put themselves in the street- calling for a revolution- while he lies around in luxury. Bit hypocritical, no?

Many times, the "anti-red" posters here, including me, have said if the Reds would only disavow Thaksin, they would have a legitimate claim to make. But as it stands, their main goal continues to be to get a pardon for Thaksin, including a return of his money.

[Samuian]

Extraordinary assumptions are reflected in these notions,

are the results of a consultation with delphian oracle?

The "peasantry" has simpy no time, nor the understanding of what,

is going on why and what all this is exactly all about!

If they would, another large majority loss for the reds!

It's the purest form of populism, being spread, with the bluntest lies

knitted together to build a framework which may seem believable.

Would the people from "Nakhon Nowher really understand who is wrestling whom here,

the red movement would be down to a trickle....

The red movement only claims to be the defender of the Xxxxxxxy and Democracy!

If so, why don't they simply form a party and go ahead in the democratic way?

Why they are defending and keep promoting a fugitive,

who tries to undermine with all means the sovereignty of

a democratic government?

And yes, Mr.Thaksin remains a fugitive until proven innocent and cleared of

all accusations!

This incoherent and predictably ignorant rant is probably not worth commenting on but for its representation of quite a widely held set of views.This type of person is obsessed with Thaksin to the point of bringing him into every discussion - even where he's not or only partially relevant.He's often mistaken for a prime mover as opposed to a catalyst or opportunist.In brief if the elite hadn't fuc_ked up so badly a chancer like Thaksin wouldn't have been able to dominate as he did.The political space, Abhisit and the more decent Democrats are now scrambling for, would have already been captured.The complexity and fragmentation of Thai society has all sorts of ramifications, as does the impact of globalization.Unfortunately this is often lost on those who think of Thai politics and society in infantile terms.The old order in Thailand is doomed and the elite's middle class hangers on better get used to the idea.(The more intelligent already have).I suspect what set off this person's rant was my comment about the generally friendly reception given by the Bangkok population to the red demonstrators.Personally what I find objectionable is the hateful assumption that the rural majority is unable to think in terms of decency and morality.I don't think we have yet reached the point of a class war in Thailand yet though the elements are there.To prevent it rquires goodwill and generosity of spirit from all sides, and the willingness to settle for the broadly acceptable rather than the ideal.

But still you take your time to comment via "argumentum ad persona" it's no "rant", it's point of view as valid as youclaim yours is!

Thaksin will come into any equation in this argument as he is undoubtedly the very core of all this since the formation of the PAD!

To use the term "f_cked up" in a political discussion is considered rant, Sir!

You blame it on the 'failures of the elite", well it's still Mr.Thaksin who tried to take full advantage and failed so bad

and still he doesn't want to take the defeat but keeps n leading with lies and deceit - undoubtedly - unless these facts are proven wrong, with convincing facts - till then it'lll remain as is, sir!

no matter what!

He has lied, he has manipulated he was caught and sentenced, he is no man of good standing, he can't take it!

But this is his problem - let's move on!