Downer

[Ajarn]

QUOTE

For most westerners, queuing makes sense because its based on the idea that everyone is equal and so queuing is fair and efficient for all. But in Thailand's hierarchical society, everyone is on a different level and the more senior in the community are accorded the honour of going first. So the concept of queuing is pretty alien to Thais.

I don't share that opinion, or those experiences.

I share Cameras opinion. Most Thais have not got the same time concept as us.

Ajarn, you worked in a university, didn't you, where teachers are very respected.

Did you ever go into a PO where your students were queuing and they didn't let you go first? I wouldn't think so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, they didn't offer, and I never asked, either. If I'd asked, I think they would graciously allow me to go first.

You're saying the concept isn't the same. He said the concept of queing is alien to most thais... I don't agree with him, but I might agree with you....

Edited May 28, 2005 by Ajarn

[Neeranam]

Of course they didn't. I never asked, either.

Ok, the PO is a bad example. What about the local Uni shop. When I was a teacher at a University, the students used to always stand back and let me go first(but I only sometimes used to).

You're say the concept isn't the same. He said the concept of queing is alien to most thais... I don't agree with him, but I might agree with you....

Got me there, what?

I don't agree with you that the concept is not alien to most Thais, but I agree with Camera, that the concept of q.ing is. Or are you talking about the TIME concept?

"We save ourselves by knowing "the h.ell with it’"

until everyone is a master in its daily application"

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Off topic, btw, I just finished "No Religion" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. I picked up a copy at Suan Mohk, his temple, years ago. What a great book!

Edited May 28, 2005 by Neeranam

[Ajarn]

Of course they didn't. I never asked, either.

Ok, the PO is a bad example. What about the local Uni shop. When I was a teacher at a University, the students used to always stand back and let me go first(but I only sometimes used to).

You're say the concept isn't the same. He said the concept of queing is alien to most thais... I don't agree with him, but I might agree with you....

Got me there, what?

I don't agree with you that the concept is not alien to most Thais, but I agree with Camera, that the concept of q.ing is. Or are you talking about the TIME concept?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I thought 'time' was a typo, since it made no sense to me in the context of the remarks... What was your point about time? Simply that some Thais have a different concept about time? Sure. I agree with that....

And what is your point if my students offered to let me go first in line?? That the concept of queing is alien to them? Or that maybe Thais are polite to elders, as we are in our own cultures?

Anyway, I think many Thais might have a different concept of Quieng than many Brits may, for example, and my concept is likely different, too, but to say that Thais have no concept of queing is just plain ridiculous, I feel.

Off topic, btw, I just finished "No Religion" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. I picked up a copy at Suan Mohk, his temple, years ago. What a great book!

He was a breath of fresh air, in my opinion. Many folks thought him too radical. I think that's why I first got interested.

Edited May 28, 2005 by Ajarn

[Neeranam]

Sorry, I thought 'time' was a typo, since it made no sense to me in the context of the remarks... What was your point about time? Simply that some Thais have a different concept about time? Sure. I agree with that....

My point about time was that Thai people have got a lot of it. My favourite phrase in Lao/Isarn is "bo dtong faao" which in Thai is "mai dtong reeb". In an air-con bank or PO, without the number system(not many), they are quite happy to wait, escaping from the heat. If there wasn't the ticket system, some would be happy waiting there for hours. I saw an example of this at Big C yesterday.

Here is a tip when going to the bank on the last day of the month - when picking a ticket, take two. When you are bored waiting for 1/2 an hour, look around and check out all the cute ladies walking in. Go up to them and offer them a ticket(to save them waiting for 1/2 an hour in return for a telephone number. It works! You could sell it but that is a bit tight.

[Ajarn]

Sorry, I thought 'time' was a typo, since it made no sense to me in the context of the remarks... What was your point about time? Simply that some Thais have a different concept about time? Sure. I agree with that....

My point about time was that Thai people have got a lot of it. My favourite phrase in Lao/Isarn is "bo dtong faao" which in Thai is "mai dtong reeb". In an air-con bank or PO, without the number system(not many), they are quite happy to wait, escaping from the heat. If there wasn't the ticket system, some would be happy waiting there for hours. I saw an example of this at Big C yesterday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, sabai sabai, na'?

On a hot day, in a place with air, I might prefer to wait until the sun goes down

[camerata]

I don't share that opinion, or those experiences. Of course Thais know about queing, and they do it quite well,- when that system is clear.

Sure, they can and will do it when they know it's expected of them and there are instructions, but that's a bit different from instinctively doing it because you feel it's right (i.e. fair). But I wouldn't single out Thais in this regard. Even Aussies are traumatized by the obsessive queuing in the UK.

One of the best examples I can think of where the "senior first" rule applies is getting out of a lift. We wait for the young women to get out first, but they wait for us to get out first.

'Might is Right' is the rule most Thai drivers tend to follow, and for very sensible reasons of safety.

Well, I think we are talking about the same thing here. To me, "might is right" is a selfish way of driving where the consideration for the seniors in society is replaced by fear of the largest vehicle, and there's virtually no consideration for the pedestrian who is the smallest and weakest of the lot. I guess it works to some extent, but look at all the times that intersections are jammed solid because everyone selfishly moves into them when lights are turning red.

[Heng]

but I know LOS very well and my personal point of view in the failure of many business in Thailand is that some foreigners come to Thailand thinking that their experience, knowledge, in a such messy country will make them rich or will make them live happily with 2 hours of work everyday (may be less ....)

So the mistake is not in Thailand itself, but in the wrong perception of this country, which is indeed much more competitive of what appers to be!

Most of the foreigners have to understand that 99% of their expertise (on a 8 working hours a day) will bring them about 3-400 Euro per month!!

If they want to work 2 hours a day and earn 4000 Euro, then they are "the problem" not Thailand.

Most of the foreigners (unsuccesfull ones) I met in the past 4 years were unsuccesfull people also in their own country, thinking that emigrating to Thailand was a "competitive advantage" to boost their loser life in the west: loser in the west means 100% will be a loser also in Thailand!!!

Here people can be happy with 1$ a day and a bowl of rice!

Great post. Spot on, IMO.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

I agree one hundred percent.

Others that also agree will no doubt be branded 'bitter' by others.

They would be wrong in most cases, I still ove Thailand but I also agree because if I were Thai I'm sure I'd be of the same thinking.

[Scott]

Generally, I agree with the original post. I've been here some 20+ years--doing OK, but I also work hard and keep my expectations realistic. I had a successful business (partnership), which I sold in the nick of time. It was doing a little too well and was drawing the attention of some envious locals. (It also was requiring a little more work than I wanted to do as it expanded and grew).

It's important to keep your head low (figuratively and literally). The displays of wealth that impresses the Thai's can cause you problems, especially if they perceive that you are making off them or theirs. If your spending it from overseas, then it's OK. It's OK if you live as you have lived since arriving in the country as well. But sudden increases in income can cause a level of discomfort and problems.

So, don't try to impress the locals. Live an outwardly modest life and enjoy the good things about the country--eating out, entertainment, movies etc. etc.

Be willing to work hard and don't try to change the country/culture.

I've also lived/ worked in quite a few other countries. I don't know why I settled here. I loved visiting Thailand, but living here is harder than I thought. I guess it's like a carnival--really, really fun for a few days, but living in one isn't. I still see more positives than negatives, but I keep my passport and enough cash for a ticket out--not just because it's Thailand, but because I am not Thai and I am not a citizen. I have a home country if all else fails.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

I guess it's like a carnival--really, really fun for a few days, but living in one isn't. 

I can relate to this comment.

[Ajarn]

One of the best examples I can think of where the "senior first" rule applies is getting out of a lift. We wait for the young women to get out first, but they wait for us to get out first.

Everyone's the butt watcher. Perhaps that's why they never bother to wait for me...

No worries as the watcher.

[bino]

'Might is Right' is the rule most Thai drivers tend to follow, and for very sensible reasons of safety.

Iagree with this 100%. When my mother came to visit, I described the right of way rules as "Size does matter". Pedestrians (smallest) never have the right of way, even at a zebra crossing, which is sacred at home. You are likely to have your license suspended if the police catch you failing to stop at one when a pedestrian is trying to cross. Next sizes up are the motorcycles, cars, pickup trucks, six wheel delivery / construction trucks, garbage trucks, cement trucks. The top of the chain are the city buses.

Here is a tip when going to the bank on the last day of the month - when picking a ticket, take two. When you are bored waiting for 1/2 an hour, look around and check out all the cute ladies walking in. Go up to them and offer them a ticket(to save them waiting for 1/2 an hour in return for a telephone number. It works! You could sell it but that is a bit tight.

I like this idea! Never occured to me. One of the bilingual girls in my office is really cute, and whenever we take her anywhere as translator, (Dept of Labour, Phone company, etc) the motorcycle couriers are always all over her offering queue numbers! Now I know how it works! Gotta try it sometime!

Edited May 28, 2005 by bino

[Heng]

'Might is Right' is the rule most Thai drivers tend to follow, and for very sensible reasons of safety.

Iagree with this 100%. When my mother came to visit, I described the right of way rules as "Size does matter". Pedestrians (smallest) never have the right of way, even at a zebra crossing, which is sacred at home. You are likely to have your license suspended if the police catch you failing to stop at one when a pedestrian is trying to cross. Next sizes up are the motorcycles, cars, pickup trucks, six wheel delivery / construction trucks, garbage trucks, cement trucks. The top of the chain are the city buses.

Hardly top of the chain. The avg. city bus driver or motorcycle taxi will give the right of way to any vehicle that may be carrying someone more important than they are. And that doesn't mean you have to be driving an 8-15 million Baht automobile either. In my experience, just lay on the horn for a continuous 10-60 seconds and they'll back off. IMO, they just need an audio reminder of their status in the local hierarchy.

[bino]

Hardly top of the chain.  The avg. city bus driver or motorcycle taxi will give the right of way to any vehicle that may be carrying someone more important than they are.    And that doesn't mean you have to be driving an 8-15 million Baht automobile either.

The avg. city bus driver or motorcycle taxi has to give the right of way to any vehicle that may be carrying someone important because they are usually escorted by several police motorcycles and cars in a motorcade that closes the streets while they pass. 2 days ago I was held up by a motorcade like this that had 6 buses full of Miss Universes on Rajdamri Road. And you are right- this is the top of the chain, but hardly a daily occurence.

In my experience, just lay on the horn for a continuous 10-60 seconds and they'll back off. IMO, they just need an audio reminder of their status in the local hierarchy.

This is one good thing I have noticed about driving in Bangkok- the Thai's are not such "horny" drivers like a lot of other cities in the world. Probably akin to shouting in Thai culture. When you "lay on the horn for 60 seconds", they are sure to look at you, realize that you are a Farang and "tolerate" you. Probably doesn't do much for our image with Thai people though.

[Johpa]

You may not agree with him, but he is one of the most entertaining conversationalists I have ever met and I am quite happy to still call him a good friend after all these years.

Not much of a writer, though, judging by the atrocious "book" on Thailand he was trying to publish.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speaking of books, might I suggest one that was given to me recently. It's called Siam Smile/s by "Hugh Watson" (not his real name) and published by Bangkok Books.

I never heard or saw any book being written by LG on Thailand, even when I stayed at his house. But the book I have always found most helpful in understanding Thai ways from a Farang perspective is Neils Muldar's Everyday Life in Thailand, which I believe came out in an updated version under a new title some years ago.

[Greer]

It’s ingrained in them from an early age to believe that they are the never-colonized master race of Asia (yes they really think that)

Complete rubbish, IMO. I've been here 28 years and have never heard a Thai express such an idea, whether in words or action. There may be a minority who think like this, but this statement alone shows off the OP's callow take on Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said Sabaijai! Anyone who has lived in almost any other Asian country will be able to refute the OPs quote...

Edited May 29, 2005 by Greer

[sabaijai]

I agree one hundred percent.

Others that also agree will no doubt be branded 'bitter' by others.

They would be wrong in most cases, I still ove Thailand but I also agree because if I were Thai I'm sure I'd be of the same thinking.

Not bitter, just inexperienced and myopic.

[camerata]

I never heard or saw any book being written by LG on Thailand, even when I stayed at his house.

Good! That means it was never published. But the extracts he posted in SCT are still there on Google Groups, usually prefaced by words like, "I humbly enclose a short extract from my book."

[Tyree D.]

the guy who made this thread is not me. I am 25 from L.A. and June 1 will be my one year anniversary here. I now live in Phayao. I appear to be the only farang here.

I never have expectations of anything, so I am always satisfied with my life. I'm not looking for a wife or business ownership so that eliminates almost all the problems I could ever face.

[~G~]

It’s ingrained in them from an early age to believe that they are the never-colonized master race of Asia (yes they really think that)

Complete rubbish, IMO. I've been here 28 years and have never heard a Thai express such an idea, whether in words or action. There may be a minority who think like this, but this statement alone shows off the OP's callow take on Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

U may never heard that but for my 10 years staying here I heard that crap many times. Sure I am going to hear it many more times...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

National pride, or nationalism, is not at all unique to Thailand.

[~G~]

The original post has some good points but is full with overwhelming negativity and one-sidedness attitude.

Certainly doing business in thailand will be more difficult then at one's home-country. What else does one expect, not knowing the language, culture, biz mentality and then trying to compete with locals? There is no place for rigidity of thinking here, one needs to constantly being willing to adjust, learn and change from day to day.

The point is not whether is it possible or not, but how is it possible. Again, I believe willingness to be open and learn is very important, to start with an attitude of humility and not from a Know-It-All one.

Edited May 29, 2005 by ~G~

[mpdkorat]

I never heard or saw any book being written by LG on Thailand, even when I stayed at his house.

Good! That means it was never published. But the extracts he posted in SCT are still there on Google Groups, usually prefaced by words like, "I humbly enclose a short extract from my book."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He did write a book. I have no idea if he published it or not. But he gave me a copy to read that he printed off his computer. It was OK but would never have sold very many. I just read it out of curiosity and politeness. He lived about a mile from me at the time. He also let me read some books that were very banned in Thailand. They were much more interesting.

He also offered me his thesis to read. I declined………..

[Ajarn]

the guy who made this thread is not me.  I am 25 from L.A. and June 1 will be my one year anniversary here.  I now live in Phayao.  I appear to be the only farang here.

I never have expectations of anything, so I am always satisfied with my life.  I'm not looking for a wife or business ownership so that eliminates almost all the problems I could ever face.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, it might not be all problems eliminated, but it certainly gives you a step-up on most of us here!

Enjoy your life here. Sounds like your head (upper one) is on straight enough

[camerata]

He also let me read some books that were very banned in Thailand. They were much more interesting.

I'm always more surprised at the books that aren't banned in Thailand than the ones that are. I've seen Alec Waugh's Bangkok : The Story of a City in Asia Books as well as Thailand: Origins of Military Rule. Despite its innocent-sounding title, Waugh's book is mostly about the aristocracy and the strange death of one of the country's monarchs.

[mpdkorat]

He also let me read some books that were very banned in Thailand. They were much more interesting.

I'm always more surprised at the books that aren't banned in Thailand than the ones that are. I've seen Alec Waugh's Bangkok : The Story of a City in Asia Books as well as Thailand: Origins of Military Rule. Despite its innocent-sounding title, Waugh's book is mostly about the aristocracy and the strange death of one of the country's monarchs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its nice to be able to read everything. He did give my one book to read by a South African Called the Devils *** Can't remember the last word. Google didn't help me either. Writen in the late 40's. Very interesting. With luck the full title will come to me about 3am this morning.

[buadhai]

But the book I have always found most helpful in understanding Thai ways from a Farang perspective is Neils Muldar's Everyday Life in Thailand, which I believe came out in an updated version under a new title some years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe it is Inside Thai Society.

Liberally cited by the author of Siam Smile/s.

[Johpa]

He also let me read some books that were very banned in Thailand. They were much more interesting.

Its nice to be able to read everything. He did give my one book to read by a South African Called the Devils *** Can't remember the last word.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Devil's Discus by Rayne Kruger. Another good read for politics is Morell and Chai-anan's Political Conflict in Thailand: Reform, Recation, Revolution.

[CrossBones]

I think that is a very good post.

The first time I came here I loved the place and the people. They were smiling happy friendly people. The second time I came they were smiling but not so friendly. These days I try to avoid them as much as possible. If you are dealing with "middle class" Thais you might be ok. The ruling classes just want you to come here, spend money and go home. I wouldnt reccomend getting to friendly with the lower class Thais, many see you only as a source of income. While they are smiling at you, they are actually laughing at you.

I work online. I export products, my money gets wired back home - as a buyer I can operate here but have to pay tax in my own country. I could set up and export business here, pay less tax but then I would have to have my money stuck over here. A change of government or policy could see all your money frozen or prevent me from transferring it out of Thailand (well its possible).

I set some friends up with an online export business, they were poor people and I wanted to help them out. They made a lot of money from the sites and my idea. I didnt profit from this, I only charged them web hosting, domain registrations and advertising costs all at cost price. I thought we were friends.

They made $50,000 profit after one year, then decided to try and didtch me and refused to pay the advertising costs. We fell out in a big way.

Funny thing, the idiots didnt know the domain names were registered in my name. I now point "their" domains to competitors websites. They don't have a business any more.

This is typical of what happens when you try to help poor people out here. Everyone is your firend or wants to be your lover - many people will change once they have their hands on your money.

NEVER KEEP YOUR MONEY IN THAILAND

I know of a 2 foriegners married to Thais here who dissappeared shortly after moving their assets to Thailand.

LOOK BENEATH THE THAI SMILE - THEY ARE LAUGHING AT YOU!

[mnoorsapl]

LOOK BENEATH THE THAI SMILE - THEY ARE LAUGHING AT YOU!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Welcome to LOS

[Boon Mee]

LOOK BENEATH THE THAI SMILE - THEY ARE LAUGHING AT YOU!

If you behave in an arrogant way, appear to have a "Big Head" for sure Thais will take the piss but to generalize all laugh at the Farang is a naive way of looking at it...