Why Do Automatic Transmissions Use More Fuel?

[CMX]

I should write, in describing my ignorance, that I’m no eggspurt in fisicks OR mekanickle ingeneering.

But I have always supposed that automatic transmissions cost fuel because of the energy lost to friction involved in the automatic transmission itself and its greater weight. But today in the States, most measurements put automatic transmissions very close to manuals, sometimes even the same (to the nearest 3%), and it is not rare to see an automatic exceed a manual model in highway driving (top gear, of course). It is true that manuals show better “city” mileage, but generally not more than 6% and more often less. Ford will be launching a transmission claimed to be faster shifting in a race than a human driver can be.

Things that have changed, of course, include the improvements to automatics – less weight, better metallurgy, and designs of moving parts. And I have to remember that anything with 125cc is going be far more sensitive - perhaps the autos represent a greater percentage of the weight of the machine by a lot. Still, our little bikes are not coming close to matching auto’s performance this way – according to our threads. I’m puzzled by this. WHY?

Edited April 4, 2010 by CMX

[bellagrego]

From my 25 years at GM. You are correct in your assessment of generalities regarding Automatics. Clutch slippage via fluid coupling is now limited by lock-up converters and other forms of direct coupling limiting torque loss. In many cases the autos are just better at selecting via computer optimum shift points and selection of only needed fuel distribution. We can't do better now than a computer and as far as performance goes, the same applies. A paddle shift Porshe hard to best. As far as our little 125 scooters go, they are inefficient little fuel sucking beast that have severely dated designs from fifty or more years ago. They are built for a price and a market, not for fuel efficiency. My 125 from 1970 is nearly identical in design. Right now, my cost to operate a 110cc Fino is 1 baht per km, my 2500 cc, big truck with all that weight, cost only 2 baht per km at 2000rpm. It's all about competition and the price of fuel. There is no competition and the governments control the price of fuel, so don't look anytime soon for a scooter to cost .5 per km to drive.

[keeniau96]

From my 25 years at GM. You are correct in your assessment of generalities regarding Automatics. Clutch slippage via fluid coupling is now limited by lock-up converters and other forms of direct coupling limiting torque loss. In many cases the autos are just better at selecting via computer optimum shift points and selection of only needed fuel distribution. We can't do better now than a computer and as far as performance goes, the same applies. A paddle shift Porshe hard to best. As far as our little 125 scooters go, they are inefficient little fuel sucking beast that have severely dated designs from fifty or more years ago. They are built for a price and a market, not for fuel efficiency. My 125 from 1970 is nearly identical in design. Right now, my cost to operate a 110cc Fino is 1 baht per km, my 2500 cc, big truck with all that weight, cost only 2 baht per km at 2000rpm. It's all about competition and the price of fuel. There is no competition and the governments control the price of fuel, so don't look anytime soon for a scooter to cost .5 per km to drive.

Wow, a real eye opener re the inefficiency of small cc bikes. I knew about the improvements in auto transmissions and their efficiency, but not about the puny dudes. Clearly a topic to get the bunnyhuggers excited, given the popularity of the two-wheelers in the 3d world.

[katabeachbum]

My yamaha Tmax 500 auto did not use more fuel than my Kawasaki NinjaR 650 6 speed manual. I belive the small auto scoots use more fuel than manual simply because they are underpowered.

While Wave 125 injection manual manages 40-50 km/l a BMW 520d auto actually manages 19km/l. Thats a 1800kg 5 seater car doing 0-100 km/h in 8 seconds.

small bikes are really not fuelefficient at all looking at weight, performance and loadcarrying capacity

[apetley]

Wifeys Mio gets about 25 kilos per litre

My old Phantom got between 35 and 40 kpl.

My Triton averages 13-15 kpl.

[Carib]

At the end of the day, it is the right foot or hand which determines the fuel consumption, driving either manual or automatic.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Carib

[jackcorbett]

My yamaha Tmax 500 auto did not use more fuel than my Kawasaki NinjaR 650 6 speed manual. I belive the small auto scoots use more fuel than manual simply because they are underpowered.

While Wave 125 injection manual manages 40-50 km/l a BMW 520d auto actually manages 19km/l. Thats a 1800kg 5 seater car doing 0-100 km/h in 8 seconds.

small bikes are really not fuelefficient at all looking at weight, performance and loadcarrying capacity

The typical driver taking his Honda Wave through Pattaya and many other places besides is going to upshift to a higher gear so he's going to be loafiing say in third or fourth gear. It's going to feel like he's already in overdrive. He's cruising at low rpms and when he's going at low rpms he's going to get terrific gas mileage. But unless he downshifts a gear or two he's got very little power on tap at such low rpms'. These bikes (for those who don't know this already) get their power at high rpms. However, if he's driving an automatic such as a Yamaha Nouvo Elegance which decides for him what gear he should be in (it's a variable transmission) he's going to be driving at signficantly higher rpms. The advantage of this is all you have to do is to twist the throttle and the response will be practically instantaneous. This is because you are already driving at higher rpms and producing more horsepower than your HOnda Wave driving counterpart. There is absolutely no contest between the drive ability of a Honda Wave for instance, at least in city driving and a Nouvo Elegance which in real world driving is going to pull away from the Wave driver with ease. The price for such drive ability is fuel economy however.

When I visited my gf's family up in Korat I noticed that practically the entire village had Honda Wave 100's. These were 100's, not 125's. These people are poor so they will want the most economical thing around. Believe me if they could afford the extra fuel costs for a Nouvo Elegance and the initial purchase price they'd practically all be driving the Nouvo. I remember one taxi driver I used to hire who had a Honda Wave 100. That thing was VERY SLOW compared to my "inefficient gas hogging Nouvo and I do mean VERY SLOW. The difference was about like comparing a family car to a Formula One. And one more thing.........driving a Honda Wave with a basket right over the front tire is driving a very inferior handling machine compared to automatics such as Nouvos, Air Blades, PCxi's, etc. Most Thais who drive Waves have to do this to keep their costs down. Most of you on this board don't have.

[katabeachbum]

My yamaha Tmax 500 auto did not use more fuel than my Kawasaki NinjaR 650 6 speed manual. I belive the small auto scoots use more fuel than manual simply because they are underpowered.

While Wave 125 injection manual manages 40-50 km/l a BMW 520d auto actually manages 19km/l. Thats a 1800kg 5 seater car doing 0-100 km/h in 8 seconds.

small bikes are really not fuelefficient at all looking at weight, performance and loadcarrying capacity

The typical driver taking his Honda Wave through Pattaya and many other places besides is going to upshift to a higher gear so he's going to be loafiing say in third or fourth gear. It's going to feel like he's already in overdrive. He's cruising at low rpms and when he's going at low rpms he's going to get terrific gas mileage. But unless he downshifts a gear or two he's got very little power on tap at such low rpms'. These bikes (for those who don't know this already) get their power at high rpms. However, if he's driving an automatic such as a Yamaha Nouvo Elegance which decides for him what gear he should be in (it's a variable transmission) he's going to be driving at signficantly higher rpms. The advantage of this is all you have to do is to twist the throttle and the response will be practically instantaneous. This is because you are already driving at higher rpms and producing more horsepower than your HOnda Wave driving counterpart. There is absolutely no contest between the drive ability of a Honda Wave for instance, at least in city driving and a Nouvo Elegance which in real world driving is going to pull away from the Wave driver with ease. The price for such drive ability is fuel economy however.

When I visited my gf's family up in Korat I noticed that practically the entire village had Honda Wave 100's. These were 100's, not 125's. These people are poor so they will want the most economical thing around. Believe me if they could afford the extra fuel costs for a Nouvo Elegance and the initial purchase price they'd practically all be driving the Nouvo. I remember one taxi driver I used to hire who had a Honda Wave 100. That thing was VERY SLOW compared to my "inefficient gas hogging Nouvo and I do mean VERY SLOW. The difference was about like comparing a family car to a Formula One. And one more thing.........driving a Honda Wave with a basket right over the front tire is driving a very inferior handling machine compared to automatics such as Nouvos, Air Blades, PCxi's, etc. Most Thais who drive Waves have to do this to keep their costs down. Most of you on this board don't have.

so true

my exGF kids have one of my Nouvos. Its the only one in the village. 3-4 kids ride 50km a day to and from school at 40-50 baht/day. Thats 10 baht more than the manuals. I guess they are glad I still sponsor their fuel bill to go to school.

Took it to Suratani to replace autobelt at 55k km, since Yamaha in the village didnt know how to do.

[jackcorbett]

so true

my exGF kids have one of my Nouvos. Its the only one in the village. 3-4 kids ride 50km a day to and from school at 40-50 baht/day. Thats 10 baht more than the manuals. I guess they are glad I still sponsor their fuel bill to go to school.

Took it to Suratani to replace autobelt at 55k km, since Yamaha in the village didnt know how to do.

Was this your first belt replacement? What was its total cost?

[Bard]

Wow that is really simple mechanics really.

Look at your scooter and see is it air cooled? If it is the tolerances are greater than on a water cooled engine, or less efficiency per cc.

Then think car, a car, most cars has a watercooled high efficiency fuel injected engine, a scooter has an old fashioned carburated air cooled engine. They normally burn 3 liter per 100 kilometer. If you however look at a bigbike with fuel injection and watercooling they typically get 100 kilometer out of 6 liter on a 200 hp engine. Try that on any car. You cannot, it is impossible.

Now why can we not get this technology down to scooters? Because this technology cost money, the scooter buyer is not willing to spend these money to buy the product so you get an inferior product which burns more fuel. It is the typical I don't want to pay now, so you pay later...

[ttakata]

Bard I agree with you all the way.

You guys do realize an automatic car has a completely different type of drivetrain than a scooter right? Cars have multiple metal gears that allow good mileage and scooters have a rubber belt cvt that loses efficiency through friction. This is really an unfair comparison IMO. You can't fit a 6 or 7 speed automotive type tranny in a bike unless it becomes a huge 300kg+ bike and surely not for 30000 baht. You may as well compare the efficiency of an Cessna airplane to an Apache helicopter. They both get you places but in different ways and at different costs. Maybe in 20 years when gas is 1000 baht a liter we can have an auto scooter with an automotive tranny, but not anytime soon because no one will pay for it. Besides my auto scooters have always returnEd better mileage than my cars and I'm an aggressive driver. If I drove both with fuel economy in mind a bike will always return better mileage.

[CMX]

OK

Ignorant as I am, I may be getting some sense of it (actually, I took apart a centrifugal force clutch once on an early motorbike - decades ago, now that I think of it). We're saying that the friction of the belts involved are so great that they subtract maybe 20%-25%, compared to manual chain-driven bikes. Meanwhile, the highly engineered and lubricated all-metal auto transmissions have cut friction and improved power losses so as to be a new amimal. Also, perhaps, that for a motorbike transmission to be as efficient, it would have to involve sophisticated computer regulated sensors and decision making, maybe engineered by Honda working with Seiko or Rolex.

I wonder if the new Honda Auto Wave, by retaining its chain in its power train on a "cooled" auto xmission, and presumably all metal parts upstream, can actually reduce some of these losses enough to be notable, compared to other autos? And too, some of manufacturers' ads about the material in the belts helping efficiency may make some sense?

Edited April 5, 2010 by CMX

[nikster]

From my 25 years at GM. You are correct in your assessment of generalities regarding Automatics. Clutch slippage via fluid coupling is now limited by lock-up converters and other forms of direct coupling limiting torque loss. In many cases the autos are just better at selecting via computer optimum shift points and selection of only needed fuel distribution. We can't do better now than a computer and as far as performance goes, the same applies. A paddle shift Porshe hard to best. As far as our little 125 scooters go, they are inefficient little fuel sucking beast that have severely dated designs from fifty or more years ago. They are built for a price and a market, not for fuel efficiency. My 125 from 1970 is nearly identical in design. Right now, my cost to operate a 110cc Fino is 1 baht per km, my 2500 cc, big truck with all that weight, cost only 2 baht per km at 2000rpm. It's all about competition and the price of fuel. There is no competition and the governments control the price of fuel, so don't look anytime soon for a scooter to cost .5 per km to drive.

Excellent post, I wish I could give you a green

[katabeachbum]

Bard I agree with you all the way.

You guys do realize an automatic car has a completely different type of drivetrain than a scooter right? Cars have multiple metal gears that allow good mileage and scooters have a rubber belt cvt that loses efficiency through friction. This is really an unfair comparison IMO. You can't fit a 6 or 7 speed automotive type tranny in a bike unless it becomes a huge 300kg+ bike and surely not for 30000 baht. You may as well compare the efficiency of an Cessna airplane to an Apache helicopter. They both get you places but in different ways and at different costs. Maybe in 20 years when gas is 1000 baht a liter we can have an auto scooter with an automotive tranny, but not anytime soon because no one will pay for it. Besides my auto scooters have always returnEd better mileage than my cars and I'm an aggressive driver. If I drove both with fuel economy in mind a bike will always return better mileage.

cars with rubber belt CVT

Audi 2,4 V6

Nissan Teana 2,5 V6 and March/Micra

Honda Fit/Jazz/city

Bikes with rubber belt CVT

Yammy TMax 500

Honda forget names

Suzuki Burgman xxxcc and 650cc

all with good milage, similar to hydraulic electronic autos.

I still belive small auto scoots have engines not fuel efficient, even injected and liquidcooled, and struggle to run the friction of autos. but on the other hand, we r talking a baht a day in increased fuel cost for average use.

[katabeachbum]

Was this your first belt replacement? What was its total cost?

first belt on this Nouvo MX at 990 baht.

another older Nouvo needed new belt at 32k km at 990 baht. It was overloaded with 150 kg rider pluss GF.

both original parts at yammy shop

still havent replaced any Elegance 135cc belt, and despite having more power I believe this belt may last longer since its auto is larger/longer belt/cooler belt.

[phobic]

...

Now why can we not get this technology down to scooters? Because this technology cost money, the scooter buyer is not willing to spend these money to buy the product so you get an inferior product which burns more fuel. It is the typical I don't want to pay now, so you pay later...

Well everything is expensive in the early "development stages" just take a look at the computer market 10 years ago and compare to now.

You make a new product, that might be expensive a year or two, but under that time technology and better manufacture ways are made.. which will make it cheaper right? And as competition grows prices drops.. etc.

But you see, status quo is good for the big companys.. like the father of modern corruption said "Competition is a sin"

[jackcorbett]

Was this your first belt replacement? What was its total cost?

first belt on this Nouvo MX at 990 baht.

another older Nouvo needed new belt at 32k km at 990 baht. It was overloaded with 150 kg rider pluss GF.

both original parts at yammy shop

still havent replaced any Elegance 135cc belt, and despite having more power I believe this belt may last longer since its auto is larger/longer belt/cooler belt.

Let's put this in perspective. A German fellow condo owner here is now on his 2nd Phantom. He tells me they are good for around 20,000 kilometers or so and then they start to have problems. He's recently replaced the chain and sprockets for over 5000 baht and now looking for his third bike here since coming to Pattaya. Over a month ago I showed him pictures of the Honda vtr 250 that will reputedly be introduced to the Thai market and he said.."That could be my next bike." But nothing on it. Nada. He tells me he MUST buy a new bike soon. He expects more problems with his current Phantom.

[katabeachbum]

Was this your first belt replacement? What was its total cost?

first belt on this Nouvo MX at 990 baht.

another older Nouvo needed new belt at 32k km at 990 baht. It was overloaded with 150 kg rider pluss GF.

both original parts at yammy shop

still havent replaced any Elegance 135cc belt, and despite having more power I believe this belt may last longer since its auto is larger/longer belt/cooler belt.

Let's put this in perspective. A German fellow condo owner here is now on his 2nd Phantom. He tells me they are good for around 20,000 kilometers or so and then they start to have problems. He's recently replaced the chain and sprockets for over 5000 baht and now looking for his third bike here since coming to Pattaya. Over a month ago I showed him pictures of the Honda vtr 250 that will reputedly be introduced to the Thai market and he said.."That could be my next bike." But nothing on it. Nada. He tells me he MUST buy a new bike soon. He expects more problems with his current Phantom.

I have had 1 Phantom 200 and 3 waves. Chain and sprockets cost more pr km than any of my small scoot auto repairs. 990 baht every 30-50k km is just cheap.

[Lancelot]

I just replaced the chain and sprockets on my Honda CZi 110. Work done at a Mityon Honda dealership, B490 total...

[eek]

Guys, as you all explain so well, can you please explain to me why my Fino, which has a catalytic converter burns through a LOT more petrol than the older Fino's. I know catalytic converters burn more petrol, just dont know why. The older model Fino's used very little petrol in comparison. The bike is also air cooled. Im curious to know how different a bike would run if say it were liquid cooled and/or fuel injected.

[jackcorbett]

I have had 1 Phantom 200 and 3 waves. Chain and sprockets cost more pr km than any of my small scoot auto repairs. 990 baht every 30-50k km is just cheap.

Great......I think we are really getting somewhere now. I was told at the nearby Honda Dealership that chains need to be replaced on Honda Waves twice as often as belts need to be replaced on the auto bikes and that a Honda Wave chain was in the 500 baht neighborhood, a figure now verified by Lancelot. I've put on 13,000 kilometers on my old Nouvo MX then sold it to my neighbor who regarded it as a great deal and a troublefree bike. I now have 5000 kilmeters on my present Nouvo Elegance and other than several oil changes and washing it I have not touched it. One of my friends has over 20,000 kilometers on his Nouvo Elegance, has not touched it and was asking me when I thought he should replace the belt. My friend David who lives at a condo near mine has had his Airblade for over three years, and he's not touched it. I live here in Pattaya 11.75 months out of 12 and been here for five years now and I've never heard of anyone having a single problem with his automatic except for replacing a headlight, tires, spark plug, rear brake pad which costs 180 baht.

These people here who talk about the unreliability of automatics simply don't know what they are talking about. Perhaps a couple of them have had a problem or knew someone who did but I'd say most of them are talking out of their backsides.

[katabeachbum]

I have had 1 Phantom 200 and 3 waves. Chain and sprockets cost more pr km than any of my small scoot auto repairs. 990 baht every 30-50k km is just cheap.

Great......I think we are really getting somewhere now. I was told at the nearby Honda Dealership that chains need to be replaced on Honda Waves twice as often as belts need to be replaced on the auto bikes and that a Honda Wave chain was in the 500 baht neighborhood, a figure now verified by Lancelot. I've put on 13,000 kilometers on my old Nouvo MX then sold it to my neighbor who regarded it as a great deal and a troublefree bike. I now have 5000 kilmeters on my present Nouvo Elegance and other than several oil changes and washing it I have not touched it. One of my friends has over 20,000 kilometers on his Nouvo Elegance, has not touched it and was asking me when I thought he should replace the belt. My friend David who lives at a condo near mine has had his Airblade for over three years, and he's not touched it. I live here in Pattaya 11.75 months out of 12 and been here for five years now and I've never heard of anyone having a single problem with his automatic except for replacing a headlight, tires, spark plug, rear brake pad which costs 180 baht.

These people here who talk about the unreliability of automatics simply don't know what they are talking about. Perhaps a couple of them have had a problem or knew someone who did but I'd say most of them are talking out of their backsides.

I have a 6-7 year old Nouvo auto using locally here in Kata. has a trailer tow to pull my 70 kg trailer with dog to the beach every morning. Bike looks like shit, never cleaned except for ocean spray, 33 k km on it only since its never out of the village, but runs like a dream on its second auto belt replaced at 32k km. its been overloaded all its life, and still pulls a 70 kg trailer up the hills in addition to my 105 kg an GF 60 kg. on occasions I beg my GF to take it for a longer ride(Patong), while Elegance, Airblade or PCX is used by someone else.

milage is great, one tank every second week sorry no more exact measures on this bike

dont know why a few autos dont make it, cause this one has had and is still having a hard life

[Lancelot]

One convient thing about automatics is that the belt does not require lubrication. As other posters have pointed out, autos keep the revs high because thats where the power is. Sccoter transmissions are just not as efficient and "smart" as the latest automatic car transmissions.

Auto scooters use a bit more fuel but its not that big of a deal is it?

FWIW, I keep a spread sheet and enter every drop of fuel purchased for my CZi. To flog my bike 15,434 km required 267 liters of fuel, mostly gasohol 91. Total damage was B6,549

[jackcorbett]

Had a previous girlfriend who told me, "The only reason Thais buy manual bikes such as Waves is they cannot afford to drive the automatics." Then she sent on to point out that with all the sprockets and chains there's a lot more to go wrong with a Wave's manual transmission than with an automatic.

I don't know, perhaps I used to adjust my chain a lot more than I had to, but when I had my Honda CB 350 and later my CB 450 I was often tinkering with the chain adjustment, and yes...one must keep them oiled. Loved that first BMW I bought, the R-65 650. No chain, no lube, just drive it and forget it. Seemed like a step up on the evolutionary ladder even though the engine and drive shaft arrangement was designed way back in something like the 1920's. After I got the R-65 I think it was Harley that started to put belt drive on its big touring bikes and I thought Harley was on the right track also.

One convient thing about automatics is that the belt does not require lubrication. As other posters have pointed out, autos keep the revs high because thats where the power is. Sccoter transmissions are just not as efficient and "smart" as the latest automatic car transmissions.

Auto scooters use a bit more fuel but its not that big of a deal is it?

FWIW, I keep a spread sheet and enter every drop of fuel purchased for my CZi. To flog my bike 15,434 km required 267 liters of fuel, mostly gasohol 91. Total damage was B6,549

[ttakata]

Had a previous girlfriend who told me, "The only reason Thais buy manual bikes such as Waves is they cannot afford to drive the automatics."

I think the mentality (and income) is changing for Thais because I'm seeing more and more automatics, Finos mostly, than any other new <125cc bikes in BKK.

I'm seeing more taxi bikes as automatics too.

"Loved that first BMW I bought, the R-65 650. No chain, no lube, just drive it and forget it. Seemed like a step up on the evolutionary ladder even though the engine and drive shaft arrangement was designed way back in something like the 1920's. After I got the R-65 I think it was Harley that started to put belt drive on its big touring bikes and I thought Harley was on the right track also."

I think the shaft and belt drives are great too, but only in more leisurely applications. The shaft drive is heavier and a belt may slip with excess wear so lighter nimbler bikes stick with chains...for now.

[CMX]

Lancelot, after long-term testing, posts for his Honda Cz-i 58km/l - which is the highest figure I've seen on these pages, at least with so much data. This bike is a semi-manual, fuel injected, 110cc, and it uses a chain drive. I've never seen any automatic driver post anything like it, at least not with a long term test like his.

Meanwhile, Bellagrego's submission penetrated, a little, even this thick head, and others have helped. What I get is this.

1) A lot of posters don't care about fuel costs, as prices seem (to them) to be insignificant (today). I'm simple minded, and want bang for the buck at all levels, I'm going to be driving A LOT, and fuel prices are going to go UP until they begin to get everyone's attention (IMHO).<means I have no proof at all.

2) There are good reasons why autoxmissions don't perform efficiently on motorbikes today - they simply are nothing like automatics on cars, as they would cost so much as to make them difficult to market to today's buying public.

3) However, in spite of the latest advertising blares, automatics being sold to the Thai public are generations behind those in cars. Yamaha and now Honda and Suzuki offer bikes (many looking like Vespa retro's) that use significantly MORE fuel than little bikes with some form of std. x'mission. If I want to use an automatic in busy city traffic, my annual fuel costs are going up (everything else being equal) + or - 20%, if I want a rough guess for purchasing number crunching.

4) Questions totally unaddressed include:

1) Eek's latest model Fino-which apparently uses much more fuel than can be explained by being a new model being broken in, and mine

2) Will the Honda 110cc Wave-i AT be the best auto at fuel efficiency due to its final chain drive?

Edited April 7, 2010 by CMX

[Loz]

If Frugality is the objective. Why not save 20000bt right out the gate by purchasing a used Wave manual 4speed bike in excellent running order. Starting from there instead of say a brand new Wave Fi PGFM 30k bike, how long would you have be in saddle before you had caught up to the mere purchase price of this new Wonder Wave?

And If you think the reliablilty is an issue. Lets hear from Wave owners on what goes wrong and how much it costs to fix. I think the Wave is a perfect balance for someone not image concious and looking for a practical reliable ride.

Before you ask, yes I have one, but only by accident. My normal ride is a 36 year old Honda C70 and I think you'd have to prize the keys out of dead hand to get me to part with it. Cut a long story short, I've made the performance on par with the latest 125 4 strokes, despite only having three gears.

I'm selling the wave as I bought it so a friend could get a ticket home. Its 5 years old and a super bike. I want to sell it because if I keep it I am going to bore out the barrel to take a 125 piston and then fit a dash Carb and up rate the CDI probably from a Nova or Dash. Then it will be on par with modern bikes at the expense of a little more juice used. It will then mean I have two perfect bikes which means back to my old hoarding ways... and came here to get away from "stuff" as the answer to everything...

Point being, 5 year old wave is a brillant bike, evidenced by seeing them bloody EVERYWHERE!!

Finally in response to auto vs Manual. I thought gas was used in the gear change on an auto where you typically throttle off in a manual. So even if weight and resistance were equal, the manner in which the car works would consume more gas cos its very hard/impossible(?) to override that extra gas squirted between gear changes on an Auto. That applies to cars, not sure about bikes. Even with the (Dare I say) "Variomatic" system economy was never great. And No, I never owned a "Daf" but I dreamed of it...

[Kimera]

If Frugality is the objective. Why not save 20000bt right out the gate by purchasing a used Wave manual 4speed bike in excellent running order. Starting from there instead of say a brand new Wave Fi PGFM 30k bike, how long would you have be in saddle before you had caught up to the mere purchase price of this new Wonder Wave?

And If you think the reliablilty is an issue. Lets hear from Wave owners on what goes wrong and how much it costs to fix. I think the Wave is a perfect balance for someone not image concious and looking for a practical reliable ride.

Before you ask, yes I have one, but only by accident. My normal ride is a 36 year old Honda C70 and I think you'd have to prize the keys out of dead hand to get me to part with it. Cut a long story short, I've made the performance on par with the latest 125 4 strokes, despite only having three gears.

I'm selling the wave as I bought it so a friend could get a ticket home. Its 5 years old and a super bike. I want to sell it because if I keep it I am going to bore out the barrel to take a 125 piston and then fit a dash Carb and up rate the CDI probably from a Nova or Dash. Then it will be on par with modern bikes at the expense of a little more juice used. It will then mean I have two perfect bikes which means back to my old hoarding ways... and came here to get away from "stuff" as the answer to everything...

Point being, 5 year old wave is a brillant bike, evidenced by seeing them bloody EVERYWHERE!!

Finally in response to auto vs Manual. I thought gas was used in the gear change on an auto where you typically throttle off in a manual. So even if weight and resistance were equal, the manner in which the car works would consume more gas cos its very hard/impossible(?) to override that extra gas squirted between gear changes on an Auto. That applies to cars, not sure about bikes. Even with the (Dare I say) "Variomatic" system economy was never great. And No, I never owned a "Daf" but I dreamed of it...

Yes the Daf. I had one, It was coffee colour. Thanks for the memory

[Loz]

Makes me mournful of the dimise of the Hilman Imp.

And let us not forget the powder blue "spaz chariots". (as they were known when I was at school)

Edited April 22, 2010 by Loz