Democrat MPs Angry Over Suthep's Soft Handling Of Red-Shirts

[Zolt]

Let's stay with some realities here. Now it's already too late for the authorities to come in heavy handed against the Red Shirts in Rajprasong.

I happen to live right in the middle of Rajprasong area, just behind the Intercontinental hotel so from my apartment windows I can see and hear all the action going on live. I don't know what's going on here just by hearsay but I can see it with my own eyes. If I leave my house I have to dive right into the red masses. Since 48 hours we are literally under siege by the Red Shirts - non stop street parties, loudspeakers, music, dancing...when do these people sleep?

The Democrats clearly missed their only opportunity to do something and that would have been preventing the Reds from building their stage and moving in on Rajprasong. The Democrats have blown their opportunity big time. Now the Reds installed themselves firmly here. It's too late now for removing them with the police or army. Old and young from all walks of life and families with children are camping on the streets. Police or military action would cause a certain bloodbath. Nobody wants that!

There are only two choices now: a heavy handed military or police approach causing certain casualties and massive property damage or to continue and try to negotiate and find a peaceful solution. An educated human lifeform with a brain and a heart will naturally go for the latter option. I just hope that the Democrats and the people in Bangkok are finally not as primitive as some TV farangs and call for violence.

Another reality: The opinion of a nano-minority such as Australian-educated Isaan is not relevant at all. Counting the majority of the poor people in the countryside and listen to their opinion is what counts here.

Ahem, let's not dramatize here. I live exactly in the same area, and life went on this weekend. Sure there were a lot of people down there but it was no more trouble navigating through the crowd than it is on a regular weekend. Delivery food takes 45 minutes to get through instead of the usual 30, and you have to walk out to Langsuan rd or down to Ratchadamree to catch a taxi.

The worst of it was probably the noise. They toned down a bit on the cheering and clapping after midnight, but I could hear music until about 2am yesterday. Then in the morning, they vanished mysteriously and reappeared on the other side of town.

What I was really surprised at is how few police there were. No more than a couple dozen with light gear at each entrance to the protest site. If violence had erupted, they couldn't even have slowed it down. Either the people in charge want to avoid a confrontation at all costs, or they want to purposefully leave the red shirts unsupervised, hoping they'll cause damage and it will be spinned against them. Considering how much security forces they have mobilized around bangkok, you'd expect at least several hundred riot police on standby around the protest site, especially in such a sensitive

Anyway, if there is to be a violent repression on the Red Shirt movement, I'd rather it didn't take place right on my doorstep. Whoever is in charge, please wait until they move somewhere else.

[jayboy]

Where were you the the yellow shirts disrupted International Air Travel? Were you as vociferous then as you are now?

Yep i was actually I was against them taking over Govt House and i was against them taking over the Airports. I am not a Yellow, neither am i a Red.

I know some people seem to think if you are anti-red then you must be a yellow supporter.

It's irritating and illogical, I agree.It's exactly the same as those who suggest that because one's sympathies are broadly red (as in my case) one is a Thaksin supporter or apologist.

[TAWP]

The BTS is open, many reds are going by BTS. The BTS joins by walkway to the shopping places.

In the last 3 weeks I have seen exactly 2 people wearing Red and riding the BTS and MRT.

And I ride them daily.

[hammered]

What a lot of people forget but not the reds is that there is an international meeting going on in Thailand right now and that while it is going on unless soemthing completley out of control happens. Abhisit is not going to order a crackdown. After the meeting and when all the foreign leaders have gone that could well change as the biggets pressure he is facing right now is from his own supporters.

Im not sure when the meeting ends but when it does that is the time to look for increased government vigilence

The reds know all of this and know they can do nearly anything they want right now.

imho

[BKKer2010]

How sad, after a year and 1/2 in BKK, the majority of friends I know that are typical Thais (making less than 20k a month) are saying they hope the police go in and kill all the Reds. I have never seen these folks ever say anything mean or wish any ill will on anybody before but they are clearly seeing "red" now. And not one of these people is or was a Yellow Shirt supporter.

It really blows my mind to see the look on their faces when they say this. It is like I don't know them as I have never seen them so disgusted with something before and have seen or been with a number of them who have faced much worse personal issues.

The PM is really hurting himself politically at this point. And he is continuing to allow these Reds to take up arms and make plans on the assault they have been provoking for a long time now. The more they do nothing, the more ground they will lose.

I'm also sure Thaksin is furious that they are trying to back down at the EC. There is no doubt he is looking for a violent confrontation by the gov't against Thai citizens (in this case criminals). If he really believed that he could get his way in 15-days than he is beyond being a lunatic, This was never about getting their way or making people aware of their grievances. It has and continues to be about causing Chaos in hopes of a military or heavy handed response from the government.

The Red leaders are trying to lead their followers like lambs to a slaughter. You do have to feel sorry in some respect for this pathetic group of followers but I can deal with whatever comes there way if it means the government will step up and do what every other leadership around the world would do if faces with a similar roaming unruly mob.

[Jingthing]

Good point, hammered. I hadn't thought of that.

[jdinasia]

What a lot of people forget but not the reds is that there is an international meeting going on in Thailand right now and that while it is going on unless soemthing completley out of control happens. Abhisit is not going to order a crackdown. After the meeting and when all the foreign leaders have gone that could well change as the biggets pressure he is facing right now is from his own supporters.

Im not sure when the meeting ends but when it does that is the time to look for increased government vigilence

The reds know all of this and know they can do nearly anything they want right now.

imho

I think the reds might be overestimating things a bit thinking that they may act with impunity.

[sabaichiangmai]

living outside chiang mai, i know many red shirts.

and 1/2 them are not advid Thaskin supporters, they just think the current govt is a or more corrupt than the 3 govt prior and besides at least thaskin provided cheap co-payment medical, somthing i under the current pm plans on overriding?

and over the past 6 months big increase here in yaa-baa use

and they yelllow shirts against working class people-red shirts being allowed to vote...

well again bangkok controls everythjing while the countryside suffers status quo for this country

[tuktukstuey]

My Thai wife's girlfriend has just arrived in Australia for a 2 week holiday, they are both Issan girls lucky enough to get a Uni Education

Sat down Saturday Night and talked about the Thai situation and how all their girlfriends back in Thailand feel, I think some of you TV members would get a shock to have been there.

When I first met my Thai wife 5 years ago Thaskin was god, and the saviour of Issan, she was never interested in Politics

Funny how things change

Now both the wife and all her friends are against Thaskin

Infact all her friends still in Thailand are totally anti the red shirts, and all are telling their families back in Issan the real story

Seems to me the Reds greatest threat is not the democrats, but education

but the crime & drugs rates has gone sky high since thaskin gone!! he had good points & bad!!

The democrats may have won the first battle, but now stand to loose the war, and not because of the red shirts, but their own inability to inforce the law

Thais want a government that can make good laws and enforce them, they want to feel safe, and to know they can go about their daily lives in safety

The PM now comes across as weak and not willing to Thais for the Red shirts

The general though is that maybe they are better off under the army ruling

One thing that comes through all their talking

Issan villages where happy before Thanskin, just living the life they knew

Now money is most important and debt is the biggest problem in the villages

Straight from the horses mouth 's you mat say

[steveromagnino]

I actually went to the effort of finding out the financial effect on just 1 business who closed yesterday. Major at Paragon alone are losing approx 5 million baht a day in lost ticket sales which will never be recovered because seats in a movie are a limited time constrained resource.

I am sure those of you who feel that the road closure is justified have your reasons.

But please stop trying to persuade owners and share holders of Major, etc that this closure has no real effect on people's lives.

It has and it does.

[BKKer2010]

living outside chiang mai, i know many red shirts.

and 1/2 them are not advid Thaskin supporters, they just think the current govt is a or more corrupt than the 3 govt prior and besides at least thaskin provided cheap co-payment medical, somthing i under the current pm plans on overriding?

and over the past 6 months big increase here in yaa-baa use

and they yelllow shirts against working class people-red shirts being allowed to vote...

well again bangkok controls everythjing while the countryside suffers status quo for this country

Untrue about the medical payment .. in fact, I believe the current gov't expanded it by making it free w/no co-pay

Please post a link regarding yaa-baa use increasing. Yea, I didn't think so since there are no facts are figures from the last 6-months. But one would wonder where these poor people are getting their money for drugs.

Your next comment or continuation makes no sense.

Bangkok is the capital and like all major cities, pay and living expenses are higher. And like any other democratic society the folks from around the country are free to come here, vote, start a business or change locations if opportunity is not available where they live.

I think you may be confusing democracy with socialism.

[BKKer2010]

I actually went to the effort of finding out the financial effect on just 1 business who closed yesterday. Major at Paragon alone are losing approx 5 million baht a day in lost ticket sales which will never be recovered because seats in a movie are a limited time constrained resource.

I am sure those of you who feel that the road closure is justified have your reasons.

But please stop trying to persuade owners and share holders of Major, etc that this closure has no real effect on people's lives.

It has and it does.

I have no figures to support these numbers but have been told it is likely more than 50k people just in that one area have been unable to work because of this mob.

[NCFC]

I actually went to the effort of finding out the financial effect on just 1 business who closed yesterday. Major at Paragon alone are losing approx 5 million baht a day in lost ticket sales which will never be recovered because seats in a movie are a limited time constrained resource.

I am sure those of you who feel that the road closure is justified have your reasons.

But please stop trying to persuade owners and share holders of Major, etc that this closure has no real effect on people's lives.

It has and it does.

Nah mate, people just go to their local neighborhood cinema instead of trekking all the way down to Paragon. I bet the suburban department stores are doing a roaring trade. The one I was in on Sunday was packed out.

[bubba]

What a lot of people forget but not the reds is that there is an international meeting going on in Thailand right now and that while it is going on unless soemthing completley out of control happens. Abhisit is not going to order a crackdown. After the meeting and when all the foreign leaders have gone that could well change as the biggets pressure he is facing right now is from his own supporters.

Im not sure when the meeting ends but when it does that is the time to look for increased government vigilence

The reds know all of this and know they can do nearly anything they want right now.

imho

If you are thinking of the Mekhong River Commission meeting being held in Hua Hin, today is the last day.

Tomorrow will hopefully bring a new day......

[jdinasia]

living outside chiang mai, i know many red shirts.

and 1/2 them are not advid Thaskin supporters, they just think the current govt is a or more corrupt than the 3 govt prior and besides at least thaskin provided cheap co-payment medical, somthing i under the current pm plans on overriding?

and over the past 6 months big increase here in yaa-baa use

and they yelllow shirts against working class people-red shirts being allowed to vote...

well again bangkok controls everythjing while the countryside suffers status quo for this country

You need to start reading the news and do less listening to your neighbors --- the Democrat led coalition has made medical care free AND funded it better.

If there are more drugs in your community you probably need to look to the red shirt bosses that run the area and see if they are suddenly profiting more.

Yellow shirts ---- have you seen them out and promoting the 70-30 plan? No? Hmmm that is because the NPP is not really active and they are not promoting that.

[BKKer2010]

I am confused why the die hard Red and so-called democratic people here on TV are here today and not out protesting along with the Reds to help these poor people they claim are being so unjustly treated.

[Jingthing]

I am confused why the die hard Red and so-called democratic people here on TV are here today and not out protesting along with the Reds to help these poor people they claim are being so unjustly treated.

It is illegal for foreigners to participate in such protests.

[hammered]

What a lot of people forget but not the reds is that there is an international meeting going on in Thailand right now and that while it is going on unless soemthing completley out of control happens. Abhisit is not going to order a crackdown. After the meeting and when all the foreign leaders have gone that could well change as the biggets pressure he is facing right now is from his own supporters.

Im not sure when the meeting ends but when it does that is the time to look for increased government vigilence

The reds know all of this and know they can do nearly anything they want right now.

imho

If you are thinking of the Mekhong River Commission meeting being held in Hua Hin, today is the last day.

Tomorrow will hopefully bring a new day......

Thanks for that

[BKKer2010]

Seems like the red shirts have finally found a way to get the attention of the Bangkok elite--hit them in their pocketbooks!. Funny how serious the tone has become since the protest has settled in the center of capitalism in Bangkok. If this is not a class struggle, why has the outrage about the protests gone up several notches since their occupation of the Rachaprasong area? At the same time, the behaviour of the protesters has been non-violent--a real democratic nation would listen to the needs of the protesters(not necessarily the demands) and enact laws to give the poor opportunities to gain economic success(i.e. buy a home, have quality health care, earn a decent living, etc.)

In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!

The Bangkok elite?

You mean the ultra rich owners and workers in the Amarin food court, Paragon food court, the cleaners in Central, the sales staff in Louis Vuitton all of whom earn the massive wages of less than 20,000b? You must mean all those upcountry folk selling wares to tourists on consignment in Naraiphund, CentralWorld, Amarin, Paragon. Yes, that will learn 'em big time.

THe Bangkok 'elite' you are hitting.

Srivikorn family - former TRT Minister and banned 111 member Pimol Srivikorn and extended family - owners of Intercon, Gaysorn, Amarin, Holiday Inn and the building I am guessing tallforeigner lives in (guessing building behind President Arcade) - I am guessing that losing something like (estimated) 30-50MB in turnover per day at Gaysorn and Amarin while losing a further few mill daily in Intercon and Holiday Inn for the next year - they were NOT consulted ahead of time about this - my guess is they aren't going to stay PT if they even still are.

Chiratiwat family - majority owners of CentralWorld (CPN), minority shareholders of Big C, sole owners of Central Chitlom - usually non political this impact hits their pocket big time, and like the bombs set outside CentralWorld the first 4 months after Thaksin was ousted in the coup, may continue to damage their business. At a guess, including Dept store turnover, hotel, food court revenue, all plaza sales, are losing something like 200MB a day.

Owner of the land of Paragon and major financing shareholders - a person we can't mention who is probably the 2nd most loved in Thailand; BBL; variety of families as key tenants including some former TRT families but mostly non political except for some of the Lamsam family who are partly strongly Democrat (Nualpan) - but they are only owning Hermes now I think, and not Paragon. Majority of Thai owners of the importing companies many are 'no names' in so far as everyone knows who they are, but they are staunchly non political and aren't in the public eye. Thai fashion designers mostly anti TRT simply because TRT ruined their industry with Bangkok fashion city; however they aren't pro Dem. Losses something like 500mb a day.

Owner of Siam Square - Chulalongkorn university subcontracting to tons and tons of small SME businesses just like the food courts, the THai crafts, the jewelery, etc. Platinum Mall and Pratunam area, the same - tons and tons of SMEs.

Maneeya, Hyatt, Four Seasons - ok there are some pretty wealthy owners, but hardly any who deserve to be financially punished for daring to do business in that area.

Total losses in turnover well over 1b baht, with many costs still being incurred. This revenue, as with the bombs in Ratchaprasong in 2006, will likely not be recovered; sales drops are not like a bouncing ball in zero gravity (where they drop then rebound to make up the loss entirely); rather the tourists, the Thais who might have spent, they continue spending as they would, and this 2 day period so far is lost forever. lest we think it won't touch the working class, bonuses, numbers of staff, staff wages, etc - these are all a direct function of turnover. There are probably more staff in the retail areas that are closed now than are actually on the street (this morning, Red shirts there were less than 10,000 visible from CW to Gaysorn and down to Big C, but possibly more on Petchburi).

Ratchadamnoen and Sanarm Luang are traditional areas for protest, and in some way, residents there have ways of getting around it; there is a very big difference in coming to the heart of the city that is a major engine for country tax revenues, employment and tourism. To ask for......basically to ask for an immediate election and the subsequent right to fiddle a constitution unilaterally to allow a convicted fugitive amnesty - because we already know that they aren't talking policy or economic reform (as the red shirts don't have any policies on this stuff).

'At the same time, the behaviour of the protesters has been non-violent--a real democratic nation would listen to the needs of the protesters(not necessarily the demands) and enact laws to give the poor opportunities to gain economic success(i.e. buy a home, have quality health care, earn a decent living, etc.)'

HEAR HEAR. I actually think that the key policies of free education, incentives and improvements in borrowing, improvements in healthcare - these are all worthwhile steps that successive govts have done - more could be done.

However this is perhaps not the best way to ask for change - to block a road of retail and hospitality and a hospital to ask for this stuff when some of it is already happening - and anyway at no point has this been, as you note, the demands of the protest - AND IT FRIGGING SHOULD BE ONE OF THE POINTS ON THE AGENDA. Clear single minded agreement on what the rural folk need. The reason of course why this doesn't ever occur, is that the rural poor will continue to elect jao pors until a genuine symbol and leader who represents them is able to transcend the local power of the Sanoh/Newin/Banharn/local baron voting attractions. And PT have no policy on this, TRT had no real policy on it - the people who really know are usually not within the room when conversations take place; instead....CP is.

'In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!'

Oh ho.....yah weng rao na. Hmmm......I think the words you are looking for is in a real democratic society, no party would dare to ask for votes with a policy to unilaterally change the constitution to the wishes of their largest funding source, but rather would be looking for ways to develop the constitution in a non partisan manner for the benefit of all Thais. I have no idea which specific policies you are referring to that the Democrats are using the protect the rights of the rich - I would be delighted to learn more on this fascinating subject, perhaps with specific reference to that billionaire 'prai' living abroad.

They have every right to protest. Good for them. But this passive aggressive attempt to grind the city to a halt while still being able to stay peaceful (which is a victory in itself, given what occurred a year ago, when the leaders couldn't control their mob) needs to say something without also screwing over the entire country/city.

Just as the yellow shirts should be punished for their transgressions, so should this mob.

I really think this is worth a repost.

[BKKer2010]

I am confused why the die hard Red and so-called democratic people here on TV are here today and not out protesting along with the Reds to help these poor people they claim are being so unjustly treated.

It is illegal for foreigners to participate in such protests.

LMAO -- it is illegal what the Red Shirts are doing too. They are all risking their freedoms and possibly lives but you are worried about losing a work permit visa? Truly you are not a Red Shirt or have any real sympathy for their cause.

[NCFC]

I am confused why the die hard Red and so-called democratic people here on TV are here today and not out protesting along with the Reds to help these poor people they claim are being so unjustly treated.

It is illegal for foreigners to participate in such protests.

Doh!

[BKKer2010]

Red supporters ... why are you here on TV and not following the words of one of your mobs leaders.

[Insight]

What a lot of people forget but not the reds is that there is an international meeting going on in Thailand right now and that while it is going on unless soemthing completley out of control happens. Abhisit is not going to order a crackdown. After the meeting and when all the foreign leaders have gone that could well change as the biggets pressure he is facing right now is from his own supporters.

Im not sure when the meeting ends but when it does that is the time to look for increased government vigilence

The reds know all of this and know they can do nearly anything they want right now.

imho

If you are thinking of the Mekhong River Commission meeting being held in Hua Hin, today is the last day.

Tomorrow will hopefully bring a new day......

Thanks for that

Thanks also - didn't realise it was going on today also.

[moresomekl]

Now it seems the dems now in power are facing party dissolution ?

What's going on ?

[Zolt]

I am confused why the die hard Red and so-called democratic people here on TV are here today and not out protesting along with the Reds to help these poor people they claim are being so unjustly treated.

It is illegal for foreigners to participate in such protests.

LMAO -- it is illegal what the Red Shirts are doing too. They are all risking their freedoms and possibly lives but you are worried about losing a work permit visa? Truly you are not a Red Shirt or have any real sympathy for their cause.

Just there for the wiseass comment, but technically it isn't illegal, as the constitution guarantees their right to assemble for political protest, unless special security laws come in effect. Illegal would be if they actively blockade the entrance to some building or business. They're skirting close to it but not actually doing it, and it ain't even that hard for someone on foot to cross the protest site from one point to another.

Centralworld and the others closing is a tactical decision. They're playing it safe and rightly so I think.

The worst that could happen to your average red shirt protested is to get shaken down for tea money by the BiB. Only the leaders stand any real risk of getting arrested, and as the PAD showed, even that risk might be remote.

An expat who dons a red shirt to go protest however stands for one of two things: either getting kicked out of the country, losing their livelihood and possibly their house, or paying tea money, except a lot more of it.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Zolt

[pimay11]

THE NATION: Reds might b confused- first the leders said to storm the bldg & next they said those who were inside'd b considered 'fake reds".

Yes, if you do not do as we say then you are not real reds, lol

Democracy at work.

And people say don't call the red followers unintelligent for following these elite radicals.

Arisman, back on stage, now threatens to visit EC head Apichart's home, "and we won't take reponsibility for what happens there."

Somebody please put an end to this lunacy.

"THE NATION: Reds might b confused" This is the best one I've heard in a long time. In the same catagory as " he jumped off the 91st floor of the building. He might have has suiside on his mind". Threatining a person's home with violence? If they won't take responsibility for what happens there (which is par for the course) I suppose the responsibility will fall on the wicked witch of the West. How many laws must these baffoons break before they are taken down?

[Jingthing]

I am confused why the die hard Red and so-called democratic people here on TV are here today and not out protesting along with the Reds to help these poor people they claim are being so unjustly treated.

It is illegal for foreigners to participate in such protests.

LMAO -- it is illegal what the Red Shirts are doing too. They are all risking their freedoms and possibly lives but you are worried about losing a work permit visa? Truly you are not a Red Shirt or have any real sympathy for their cause.

Indeed. Truly I am NOT a red shirt! Thank you!

[Jingthing]

Now it seems the dems now in power are facing party dissolution ?

What's going on ?

Spreading rumors are we? Very funny.

[animatic]

I actually went to the effort of finding out the financial effect on just 1 business who closed yesterday. Major at Paragon alone are losing approx 5 million baht a day in lost ticket sales which will never be recovered because seats in a movie are a limited time constrained resource.

I am sure those of you who feel that the road closure is justified have your reasons.

But please stop trying to persuade owners and share holders of Major, etc that this closure has no real effect on people's lives.

It has and it does.

Not to mention the employees and suppliers and their employees,

all part of the chain of human support a large company provides.

That chain of support goes to people of all classes and all parts of the country,

even something as simple as a theaters candy counter closing means some drivers

won't be needed to deliver. What are the chances that driver is from issan?

Pretty darned good, but he won't be working this week, because nothing was sold,

and so he has no delivery to make.

Maybe his company gives paid day off or just lets him hang at the depot on the clock,

maybe it's; sorry no pay today.

No large business is a vacuum unto itself.

Thousands of Issan people are being put out by this fraction of their neighbors acting out.

[hammered]

Now it seems the dems now in power are facing party dissolution ?

What's going on ?

They have been facing that for ages. A week or so ago the EC said they would conclude the case on April 20.