Are Red-Shirts Battling For Thaksin's Bt76 Bn Or Democracy?

[webfact]

Are red-shirts battling for Thaksin's Bt76 bn or democracy?

By K I Woo

Special to the Nation

BANGKOK: -- Although the red shirts and the government both claim they are fighting to uphold democracy, few people really believe that's their primary reason.

Most people believe that the word "democracy" is being used by both factions as rallying cries to gain political power and to crassly seize the moral high-ground in their current dispute.

More insidiously, a large part of the general public believe that the current disruptions are the concluding phases of deciding how former PM Thaksin Shinawatra's Bt76 billion frozen by the government will ultimately be distributed.

They believe the recent court decision announcing the seizure of Bt46 billion of Thaksin's assets will not ultimately survive the aftermath of the current disturbances.

While many of the general public supporting both factions believe they are fighting for justice, the real behind-the-scenes skirmishes are about the Bt76 billion still under the government's control.

This week's disruptions seriously affected many businesses and the public, especially in Bangkok. Some hotels have indicated 50 per cent tour cancellations for the rest of this month and next month.

Prolonged demonstrations will undoubtedly diminish economic growth and further contribute to political uncertainty, especially if they are continually held in busy Bangkok intersections.

More importantly, the protests have already begun affecting employment and other forms of livelihood for lower-income people in Bangkok.

If the current disruptions are prolonged, many people believe that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's cobbled-together coalition will fall apart and several factions will gravitate towards those with deep pockets to ensure that they remain forces in future governments.

Although conventional thinking has limited the ultimate conclusion to the division of the Bt76 billion among the different pro-Thaksin coalition groups that will form a post-Abhisit government, others are questioning whether the current red leaders will be satisfied with just getting rid of Abhisit.

Their well-run protests have brought further fears, that they have created a "red" movement with aspirations far beyond just supporting their benefactor, Thaksin.

The red movement may have initially started with the support of lower-income people outside Bangkok who benefited when Thaksin was in power.

Today, they still form the majority of red supporters that are rallying for the immediate dissolution of Parliament and the ouster of Abhisit.

However, Thaksin's use of low-income red-shirt supporters may have inadvertently unleashed a semi-dormant political movement that constitutes the majority of people in Thailand.

Although, these low-income supporters were Thaksin's primary base and he needed them to change the current political structure, there is no guarantee that the current seemingly well-led red movement will ultimately kow-tow to his requests.

More importantly, the red movement's leaders have grown more confident and strident during the current disruptions. With Thaksin thousands of kilometres away, the leaders have tasted the adrenaline of political power.

They suddenly realise that other than for financial handouts to feed protesters, they may not need Thaksin or other political parties especially if they themselves can lead a new political movement of the poor.

Their confidence has been strengthened over the past several days reportedly through increasing support from military and police factions sympathetic to the cause.

In aligning himself with the reds, Thaksin may have bought more than he bargained for.

Everywhere in the fast-moving, Internet-based world that Thaksin has capitalised on with his numerous broadcasts from all over the world, many actions have constantly surprised us with unintended consequences.

We must remember that the current global economic crisis was triggered by sub-prime home-loan defaults in the heart of low-income America.

Few people understood that a few low-income families forced into home foreclosures could trigger a worldwide economic and financial crisis.

The September 11 attacks on the World Trade Centre in New York taught everyone that seemingly small things can have tremendous impacts.

A few terrorists crashing airplanes into major New York City office buildings during office hours has completely changed how America sees itself.

How many of us have encountered "Homeland Security" checks on our visits to the US?

Or more importantly, how many people have been bombed into oblivion during the current war on terror.

The red-shirt leaders can taste power and they also realise that they are the key players in deciding how the Bt76 billion will ultimately be distributed.

It makes the estimated Bt200 million needed each day to feed protesters feel like chump-change.

-- The Nation 2010-04-10

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[givenall]

Democracy my ass....

by the way all the money goes to the protester, ends up being spent for beer and wine, so goes ride back into the business and government as tax

Edited April 10, 2010 by givenall

[Insight]

If the court ruling last month was in favour of Thaksin would this be happening now? I highly doubt it.

There might be a movement of people politically awakened through these protests, but they won't get a fair election from the red shirt demands; they'll still be backing the same crooks.

For the sake of Thailand Abhisit needs to prevail and I'm heartened to hear he hasn't give up. After all, I remember how Songkran last year turned out.

[MellowYellow]

Ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.......

ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.....

War on terror....

America bad....

Bombs.....

Ramble ramble ramble...

Do they have editors at the Nation who, like, actually edit?

I read it twice and have no idea what his point was.

[thepodest]

The reds are being used and manipulated by their leaders and Taksin. I have to admit that SOME of the points made by Reds are very valid, but these points are being distorted by the agendas of the man behind the curtain.

I would say to the Reds: go back home and come back again with clear and reasonable goals. Also, this time use more civilized methods of protest.

There will be way more respect the Reds if they are not associated with Taksin or ex-communist party member.

Edited April 10, 2010 by thepodest

[Insight]

Ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.......

ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.....

War on terror....

America bad....

Bombs.....

Ramble ramble ramble...

Do they have editors at the Nation who, like, actually edit?

I read it twice and have no idea what his point was.

Big bold letters at the top of the article.

Here it is again:

Are red-shirts battling for Thaksin's Bt76 bn or democracy?

Share your thoughts.

[4223rhodes]

I think the Thais are battling for the right-wing royalist army's trillions or at least trying to get them to stop bleeding the country dry. Thaksin's billions don't really amount to crap when you compare it against the golden camouflage glow than controls the wealth and lives of all Thais. Just a thought.

[LuckyLew]

My Opinion ...

I believe they are battling for Taksin and his billions

I believe they probably believe if he gets his money back they

will benefit in some way shape or another

I believe they think he actually cares about them

Throw a dog a bone every now and then and the dog will be obedient

[maxpower]

Ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.......

ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.....

War on terror....

America bad....

Bombs.....

Ramble ramble ramble...

Do they have editors at the Nation who, like, actually edit?

I read it twice and have no idea what his point was.

No, but they do have lots of guys with brown noses.

[Insight]

My Opinion ...

I believe they are battling for Taksin and his billions

I believe they probably believe if he gets his money back they

will benefit in some way shape or another

I believe they think he actually cares about them

Throw a dog a bone every now and then and the dog will be obedient

Former colleague telling my last night the office maid believes she'll get 100,000 baht from Thaksin if he returns to Thailand as PM.

These are the rumours doing the rounds right now.

[khunjamespittman]

Based on last nights agreement with the military not to turn off PTV again and their actions late last night truning it off again, they just made it much more difficult to reach any kind of compromise. What good would it do if you can't trust the government to keep its word?

If you are able to reach an agreement will last night's actions be repeated?

There has to be a legitimate trust demonstrated. Machine guns aren't exactly a good way to do that.

[animatic]

Don't bother reading the closed new forum this morning. The Nation has flooded it with many pages of anti-opposition propaganda.

It really is a shame when we can have a closed news forum sans anti-opposition proganda. I hope in the future there is a way to ban even The Nation when it strays from reporting the news to try to influence opinions.

It was a very bad mistake for TV to join in an aliance with The Nation. It would really be nice if we could dump them if they insist to put out this kind of trash propaganda. If TV wants to continue this junk, maybe they could add a The Nation editorial forum.

Mods if you are listening you really should consider deleting all the junk there this morning.

As opposed to the junk that you regularly come out with.

Spare us!!

Still not taking your bait Danny boy. Suggest you try somebody else.

Ah! Now you want to Ban The Nation because it has an editorial slant you dislike.

What a wonderful supporter of Democracy you are.

And have removed the last vestiges of your credibility for good.

And before you whine about PTV's closing and say your idea at censorship is not as bad,

remember The Nation has never advocated street rioting and burning Bangkok to the ground.

[asiascharlie]

People are rallying for Thaksin but the UDD know it sounds silly to make the poor rally for a billionaire to wrap it up and sell it like democracy .

[PhilHarries]

I believe that the majority of the rank and file Reds are, or certainly believe they are, fighting for a better life (and the few hundred a day promised by those nice people on stage).

A better country? Well the country would certainly be better for them if they had more money but they certainly don't care for the country as a whole.

Democracy? What's that? Another western concept that don't put food on the table. They believe in feudal democracy where they support the local lord who drops off a few sack of food a day as he's passing by in his Merc.

If the Reds win the day wacth out for words like Mulethan, <insert date> people [or new people] and Angkar or their Thai equivalents.

The people are being manipulated and Thaksin ain't the only puppet master.

[animatic]

Follow the money.... it can't be simpler.

I like the maid's opitmisim.

[khunjamespittman]

Don't bother reading the closed new forum this morning. The Nation has flooded it with many pages of anti-opposition propaganda.

It really is a shame when we can have a closed news forum sans anti-opposition proganda. I hope in the future there is a way to ban even The Nation when it strays from reporting the news to try to influence opinions.

It was a very bad mistake for TV to join in an aliance with The Nation. It would really be nice if we could dump them if they insist to put out this kind of trash propaganda. If TV wants to continue this junk, maybe they could add a The Nation editorial forum.

Mods if you are listening you really should consider deleting all the junk there this morning.

As opposed to the junk that you regularly come out with.

Spare us!!

Still not taking your bait Danny boy. Suggest you try somebody else.

Ah! Now you want to Ban The Nation because it has an editorial slant you dislike.

What a wonderful supporter of Democracy you are.

And have removed the last vestiges of your credibility for good.

And before you whine about PTV's closing and say your idea at censorship is not as bad,

remember The Nation has never advocated street rioting and burning Bangkok to the ground.

NO! I don't editorals confused with factual news.

[anotherpeter]

The red shirts are battling for the money.

They try and make it sound like they want democracy and for the poor, but they fail to put forward any plans for how they are going to do that.

They talk about getting rid of the corruption, but they reject anything put forward that might reduce it, and their biggest backer is most corrupt one of all.

[MellowYellow]

Ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.......

ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.....

War on terror....

America bad....

Bombs.....

Ramble ramble ramble...

Do they have editors at the Nation who, like, actually edit?

I read it twice and have no idea what his point was.

Big bold letters at the top of the article.

Here it is again:

Are red-shirts battling for Thaksin's Bt76 bn or democracy?

Share your thoughts.

Thanks or that. it is all clear to me now!

The title bears little relation to the ramble, imo.

What does the "war on terror" and bombs have to do with the red protests?

Bizarre analogy and hyperbole do little to advance argument on either side, imo.

[hammered]

Whether we like it or not the two issues have become intertwined. Whether they remain so will be interesting to see.

[Ragnarok]

They are battling for Thaksin's Bt76 Bn. Usually in the past rebellions have started with young people at universities. Now we see older folks from the provinces. Why didn't the younger folks turn out. Add to that workers in BKK like motorcycle men and drivers. Another thing that's different, in the past there wasn't live footage for all to see. In the past people disappeared in confrontations and families never knew what happened to them. This time, it's on film, to be analyzed. That's why there are no fatalities. It isn't fair for a few thousand people to gather and demand elections. If that worked we would have elections every few months as groups of one opinion or another gathered and demanded elections. No can do! When I arrived in Thailand in the 80's if something happened you would just read about it the next day in the newspaper. I have to admire the news people on the scene reporting all day long for Thai TV channels.

[4223rhodes]

Thaksin's total wealth is about on par of Tiger Woods and Oprah Winfrey. He's wealthy, no argument there. But his wealth does not amount to anywhere near 1% of the wealth of the right-wing royalists who oppose him. Follow the money. We can't discuss it under the current Abhisit censorship mandates.

[MellowYellow]

Based on last nights agreement with the military not to turn off PTV again and their actions late last night truning it off again, they just made it much more difficult to reach any kind of compromise. What good would it do if you can't trust the government to keep its word?

If you are able to reach an agreement will last night's actions be repeated?

There has to be a legitimate trust demonstrated. Machine guns aren't exactly a good way to do that.

I'm unaware of a specific agreement bewtween the reds and the government to NOT try and turn off PTV again. If such an agreement were made, I highly doubt the government was part of it. More than likely any agreement would have been between the local military and local red protesters at the Thaicom site.

Thus, I don't see how this situ calls into question the gubment's word.

Many other situs might, but this one, not so much.

[hammered]

Thaksin's total wealth is about on par of Tiger Woods and Oprah Winfrey. He's wealthy, no argument there. But his wealth does not amount to anywhere near 1% of the wealth of the right-wing royalists who oppose him. Follow the money. We can't discuss it under the current Abhisit censorship mandates.

You cant discuss it whoever is or has been in power and quite likely whoever gets into power next

[animatic]

Based on last nights agreement with the military not to turn off PTV again and their actions late last night truning it off again, they just made it much more difficult to reach any kind of compromise. What good would it do if you can't trust the government to keep its word?

If you are able to reach an agreement will last night's actions be repeated?

There has to be a legitimate trust demonstrated. Machine guns aren't exactly a good way to do that.

I'm unaware of a specific agreement bewtween the reds and the government to NOT try and turn off PTV again. If such an agreement were made, I highly doubt the government was part of it. More than likely any agreement would have been between the local military and local red protesters at the Thaicom site.

Thus, I don't see how this situ calls into question the gubment's word.

Many other situs might, but this one, not so much.

For once I agree with MY, no agreement was ever stated between gov and reds over Thaicom,

just that a cop general on the ground agreed to turn it back on.

Edited April 10, 2010 by animatic

[anotherpeter]

Thaksin's total wealth is about on par of Tiger Woods and Oprah Winfrey. He's wealthy, no argument there. But his wealth does not amount to anywhere near 1% of the wealth of the right-wing royalists who oppose him. Follow the money. We can't discuss it under the current Abhisit censorship mandates.

Now your blaming Abhisit for the censorship laws that have been in place for decades???

[luangtom]

If the Red Shirts truly wished to garner world-wide support, they would dump Khun Thaksin from their slate. He was the person that promised the world he would not enter back into politics, yet he directs the Red Shirts from afar in the lap of luxury while they sleep on mats in the streets. He also promised the world that he would accept the rulings of the court on his funds that were eventually seized and yet here we are listening to rant about how he needs to get his billions back to help the poor. It is unbelievable that anyone can yet accept anything that comes from the Thaksin camp in reference to daily directions for the Red Shirts or plans to attain his lost billions. Are the Red Shirts truly that easily mislead and believe that they will reap benefits from supporting Khun Thaksin in the name of democracy? These disruptions of life in Bangkok have nothing to do with democracy. It is one set of elites versus an opposing set of elites. How sad the Red Shirts cannot see how they are being manipulated for the benefit of someone else and not democracy. Until the former PM is out of the loop, there will be no resolution to this unrest. Then, and only then, will the world believe democracy is the goal of either of the sides. Chok dee, Thailand, chok dee.

[PhilHarries]

Thaksin's total wealth is about on par of Tiger Woods and Oprah Winfrey. He's wealthy, no argument there. But his wealth does not amount to anywhere near 1% of the wealth of the right-wing royalists who oppose him. Follow the money. We can't discuss it under the current Abhisit censorship mandates.

It is not important who has how much of what now, it is who stands to gain what from a Red victory.

One thing for sure is that their leadership doen't give a toss for the plight of the poor Issan rice farmer. The only way the rice farmet ends up better off is if people pay him more to grow rice, which means people have to pay more for their rice, which means they charge more for their services. Then the rice farmer has no option that to mechanise and improve productivity meaning he need less poor labourers and so the circle widens.

Thailand has missed the boat on industrialisation, there are cheaper and better alternative countries now, and the new technologies aren't mass employers.

Sure there could be a little bit fairer wealth distribution but this must apply also to the middle classes unless you believe in true Marxist equality - and that's failed miserably. So, in that case everyone gets a bit more and the pecking order remains, nobody is better off.

Thus Thailand is faced with a bleak choice: Maintaining the status quo and the peasant culture or mass unemployement.

And before you all scream about the first option go look in the mirror, you are only in Thailand because it is relatively cheap. It is only cheap because of the peasant culture.

[Sunderland]

It's all about money for sure ... but this is all about much more than Thaksin's money. And the money we are talking about dwarfs Thaksin's lost billions.

Thai laws and Thaivisa rules forbid us to discuss this any further.

[bendejo]

There is no controversy, a redshirt victory on any level will be a Taksin victory. He talks about his strategy for the demonstrations/assaults, throws out promises for how he'll make things better when he returns, and his picture is all over the fookin' place. How can his involvement be considered ambiguous?

When demands were handed over at the "Three Stooges Summit" a few weeks ago one demand was about dissolving the gov't, the other three about Taksin and his money. My take was talks were called off by Taksin: he probably told them they couldn't close a deal without his say-so, and he knew further talks could result in him fully marginalized.

I would think the leaders are on an incentive: accomplish the tasks the boss laid out (dissolve gov't, get the billions returned, amnesty, etc) and get 2 million baht bonus. Now can you understand the passion with which the crowds are addressed?

I do pity the poor slobs on the street who think a victory will actually improve their lot, aside from what they're being paid right now. If Taksin does manage to return a free man he'll tour the NE and hand out 300b gifts again.

Not only is he a liar, but audaciousness of the obvious lies is astounding. And then there's these sorry souls in the street who swallow it all, that's the really depressing part.

Edited April 10, 2010 by bendejo

[siampolee]

Sadly the political concept, if as such there is one is but a front for the return of Thaksin and of course his money,

Perish the thought that the leaders of the Red Shirt Brigade will get a slice of the financial pie when it is carved up.

Perish the thought that the Red Shirt Brigade leaders will be shoehorned into positions of power thus enabling them to further enhance Thaskins and their personal finances too.

Perish the thought that crony-ism, nepotism and corruption will all walk hand in hand in any administration as may result from a Red Shirt Brigade parliament.

Perish the though the thought that those most in need will not benefit from the proposed great social changes and become empowered, rewarded according to popular rumour by large sums of money awarded to them personally with no pay back clauses.

Perish the thought that the shining stars of the liberators of the and empowerment of the masses will ruin the country completely.

Beware. The great liberators of the masses invariably are the despotic tyrannical oppressors of the masses.

Castro, Chavez, Pol Pot, Hun Sen, Ho Chi Min, Mao Tse Tung, Mugwabe, the list goes on and still people do not learn from history.

Rhetoric is cheap and money distorts the truth as does ignorance.

Edited April 10, 2010 by siampolee