Bangkok: 10+ Dead, Hundreds Hurt In Bangkok Clashes

[Throatwobbler]

Jatuporn and his buddies make me sick. This is exactly the situation they've been trying to provoke - a big mess and some bodies to bring the government down. They knew the consequences, they don't give a dam_n about their own people.

Neither does Abhisit

Do you have an FXXXing clue what you are talking about?

You've been on these discussions for weeks now. Come on lets me give some facts about things you have claimed.

Number one. You have claimed repeatedly that the majority of Thais support the reds. I Challenge you to give me one credible link where that is so. All I ask is one credible link if you cand do that the I respect you.

If not shut up.

Ok you've shown me a colour coded map. I still want figures to show the claim about the majority of Thais.

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

"OK, congratulations, you live here. However, no, I don't think that I'm being delusional when I said that I thought the UDD had been restrained and conducted a peaceful campaign for close to a month (until the Government lost face with the subsequent events of the past 24 hours). What would Thaksin have done? Don't know, but doubt that it would have got to this stage that's for sure. Think you're missing the point though, this really isn't about Thaksin, in spite of the phone in's etc etc, because he isn't ever coming back to politics. This is about the legacy that he left for a very large segment of society, and their feeling of betrayal by the current Government.

Sure, you can quote the 'war on drugs' etc, though I haven't actually heard anyone accuse Thaksin of pulling the trigger on any 'suspected' drug dealers personally. In fact, many of the Thai's that I know think it wasn't such a bad idea (not surprising if you live in areas with a high drug use, particularly amongst youngsters). Can't really comment on the Muslim's in trucks etc, though I know the actions of a few local forces weren't consistent with what's humane.

From recollection, the resignation of Editors was a political statement, and not wholly aligned with protests about censorship.

However and regardless of the pluses and minuses of a Thaksin debate, this current issue isn't seriously about him. The Amart/PAD etc can use him as a symbol to direct their supporters attention to, but it's never going to lessen their own (in some cases) equally distasteful actions, or bring about a society where there is genuine respect for all who comprise it."

The UDD illegally occupied areas of the city. They continued to do so after the emergency decry. I think we all knew that there was only one realistic outcome if this continued. It is unrealistic to let a group lay seige to a city and demand that the government just give up. The reds also stormed Parlaiment The TV station yesterday, attempted to storm the army barracks etc etc. how do you see this as being passive? The government showed great restraint and clearly something had to be done to stop this. Your completely ridiculous statement that Taksin did not pull the trigger in no way takes away the fact that it was his policies that were in place making him responsible for those killings. You are blaiming Abhisit for all this violence but of course I do not see any video of Abhisit shooting anyone either.

The reds knew they were playing with fire yet every day they kept escalating their defiance of the rule of law. If you look at the videos available you will also see that when the military confronted to protesters it was the protesters that went into high gear with the violence. Attacking the military can only lead to one thing. Bottom line the reds wanted violence they said it over and over, they finally got it. It is a terrible situation but you need to look at the big picture and give blame where it is due. You are correct that the elites have always neglected the rural Thais and although that is a factor it is more of a factor that most of these people are here because they are making a lot more money protesting than they would make in their villages (hence the reason you see so many grandmas in the photos). If Taksin really was interested in helping the poor he would have paid his taxes from the Illegal selling of Shincorp and put that to good use up north.

[BigBikeBKK]

Can't admit that underestimating the protest determination from the start by the government and many others has caused this situation?

That is the undeniable fact.......because if the potential had been assessed correctly the protest would not have been allowed to even enter Bangkok. That is what this regime is also guilty of......complacency!!!!

Oh I'm sure Thaksin was guilty of complacency in his time too....so that will make everything, even and the deaths, ok then....in your world?

Get real- Prime Minister Abhisit has been on the record clearly stating that welcomes free speech and peaceful protest, but when the red shirts go from peaceful protest to illegal occupation the government has to act to restore law and order. A small minority can not be allowed to disrupt the lives of the majority. The only thing Abhisit is guilty of is being too patient and too soft with the mob and their criminal leaders. Glad to see he's finally putting his foot down.

[Rinrada]

Looks like Thai Government are well and truly in bed with their friendly generals in Burma.

Only last week a promise was made to the delegates of the International Parliamentary Union Meeting hosted in Bangkok that as a Democratic thinking country Thailand would not resort to to repressive actions against their own people.

The World will now be laughing at them ....but NOT in a funny way......sad

[LuckyLew]

What I find interesting is the 'crackdown' is justified by many as been due to the undeniable fact the 'Reds' were breaking the law.

Has it suddenly become acceptable to begin executing random perpetrators, without trial, for breaking the law?

No, that's the way Taksin operates (remember his 'war on drugs'???)

Since when does fighting an armed mob = execution? Quite a leap there. But when authorities try to remove an illegal mob using non-lethal means (tear gas, rubber bullets and water cannons) and are met with guns, grenades and fire bombs they have every right to fight fire with fire.

Next time the army should just roll in with tanks and give the red mob a choice- go home or else.

You see the second thing that interests me is why when a question is forwarded somehow the historical events of the Thaksin era are thrown in as some sort of justification that the current actions are not so desperate.......strange logic if you see what I mean.

I pray that there is not a next time and that if there is the fire is not stoked by the government of the day but a prolonged control and defuse method is applied. There is another way to fight fire.......it's called dousing the flames........you can either use sand or water......in both cases it is advisable to retire a safe distance.

However some take the opportunity to back burn to solve fire problems, works, but not always effective if the wind changes!!!

You see the third thing that interests me ...

Every time we say you are illegally occupying areas and buildings ..

You bring up historical events of the yellow shirt era are thrown in

as some sort of justification that the current actions are not so

desperate.......strange logic if you see what I mean.

Seems like you can use past events to justify your current ones

but the other side cannot do so

Seems like that is a "double standard"

See what I mean???????????????

[473geo]

Can't admit that underestimating the protest determination from the start by the government and many others has caused this situation?

That is the undeniable fact.......because if the potential had been assessed correctly the protest would not have been allowed to even enter Bangkok. That is what this regime is also guilty of......complacency!!!!

Oh I'm sure Thaksin was guilty of complacency in his time too....so that will make everything, even and the deaths, ok then....in your world?

Get real- Prime Minister Abhisit has been on the record clearly stating that welcomes free speech and peaceful protest, but when the red shirts go from peaceful protest to illegal occupation the government has to act to restore law and order. A small minority can not be allowed to disrupt the lives of the majority. The only thing Abhisit is guilty of is being too patient and too soft with the mob and their criminal leaders. Glad to see he's finally putting his foot down.

As has been said many times on the forum already..........Abhisit, good man that he may be, is possibly part of the orchestra not the conductor!!!.......This is not a personal vendetta against one man, most educated people realise that no one person can dictate the actions of an army. However perhaps the army can dictate the actions of one man!!!

P.S. Love the picture of the faceless money men behind the government.........but could they not find a different shirt colour??

[SiriusBlack1]

The violence needs to end now.

Please step down, Mr. Abhisit.

[BigBikeBKK]

Looks like Thai Government are well and truly in bed with their friendly generals in Burma.

Only last week a promise was made to the delegates of the International Parliamentary Union Meeting hosted in Bangkok that as a Democratic thinking country Thailand would not resort to to repressive actions against their own people.

The World will now be laughing at them ....but NOT in a funny way......sad

So are you suggesting the government should allow paid protesters to illegally occupy Bangkok indefinitely? Of course not. The actions taken against the mob are required to free the city from these hooligans. The reds had every opportunity to pack up and leave but they chose confrontation and escalation. They got what they asked for. Now what? Will they stick around for more or go home like they should?

[cdnvic]

Some members have been sent packing because they missed the warnings all over the place about discussing the Monarchy.

Also, use care when quoting. If your post is messed up and it's impossible to tell who is being quoted, it may be deleted to avoid misunderstanding.

[Damacles]

Some of you seem to be falling into the same traps as you accuse others of, that of dis/misinformation. A photo of a group of people who could just as likely be standing for the national anthem proves nothing, good or bad. Photos, like conjecture, need perspective.

The 'perspective' is that they are all wearing red shirts. Look at the photo again. You may notice this 'perspective' on second viewing.

You're so busy looking to be sarcastic you miss the point. Shame that, but not unexpected.

[bunya]

Sad for the people, no matter on which side they are told to fight! The democrats took some 236m Baht as a 'party contribution' plus X, which we don't know of, from a petrochemical company and Thaksin sold a whole company without even paying taxes plus his wives land deals. So what choice do they have? "There must be some kind of way out of here, said the joker to the thief..."

The 'pawns' in the game for the big boys are the soldiers and policemen on the one hand and those poor buggers from the 'have not' class. Chess for the boys, pain for the people. When finally will people awake from the left-right paradigm. They're all crooks, so let's call the dog by it's name!

I couldn't agree more with that last line,they are all crooks.A most likely assumption with few exceptions.

Cant we then fall back and democratically elect a new crook.

The majority of Thailand is attempting to be a democracy.

The last democratically elected crook at least earnt the following of the over whelming majority,twice as I recall.

A democratic election was always the best choice.

And the result ought be accepted.

The present course leads to civil uprising,and that is a very sad view.

The people of Isan only want a better life.That ought be easy to empathise with.

I cant help but feel,the people of Bangkok,seem to support pseudo-democracy,or a type of serfdom.

The current leader gained his position via swings and round-abouts and was initially purported to be temporary until an election.

I think the majority are inpatient and distrustful and probably rightfully so.

[needforspeed]

The reds out there for a month looking for confrontation, threatening don't obey the law and procedures.

Goverment did a very good job, hope they going to make some arrests didn't hear annything about that.

Sad for this people who realy don't have a idea where its all about with our friend T.

Some post said" you back an animal into a corner and threaten it wil retaliate" who is the animal ?

[473geo]

What I find interesting is the 'crackdown' is justified by many as been due to the undeniable fact the 'Reds' were breaking the law.

Has it suddenly become acceptable to begin executing random perpetrators, without trial, for breaking the law?

No, that's the way Taksin operates (remember his 'war on drugs'???)

Since when does fighting an armed mob = execution? Quite a leap there. But when authorities try to remove an illegal mob using non-lethal means (tear gas, rubber bullets and water cannons) and are met with guns, grenades and fire bombs they have every right to fight fire with fire.

Next time the army should just roll in with tanks and give the red mob a choice- go home or else.

You see the second thing that interests me is why when a question is forwarded somehow the historical events of the Thaksin era are thrown in as some sort of justification that the current actions are not so desperate.......strange logic if you see what I mean.

I pray that there is not a next time and that if there is the fire is not stoked by the government of the day but a prolonged control and defuse method is applied. There is another way to fight fire.......it's called dousing the flames........you can either use sand or water......in both cases it is advisable to retire a safe distance.

However some take the opportunity to back burn to solve fire problems, works, but not always effective if the wind changes!!!

You see the third thing that interests me ...

Every time we say you are illegally occupying areas and buildings ..

You bring up historical events of the yellow shirt era are thrown in

as some sort of justification that the current actions are not so

desperate.......strange logic if you see what I mean.

Seems like you can use past events to justify your current ones

but the other side cannot do so

Seems like that is a "double standard"

See what I mean???????????????

You are more than welcome to bring forward any instance where I draw any comparison with any political movement actions. My thoughts are based on current events....times we live in.....not historical justification......which quite frankly I find is usually a nonsense introduced where the poster has no creditable reasoning.

[pagallim]

Some members have been sent packing because they missed the warnings all over the place about discussing the Monarchy.

Also, use care when quoting. If your post is messed up and it's impossible to tell who is being quoted, it may be deleted to avoid misunderstanding.

I've had several instances of not quoting, solely replying, and getting weird error messages about quotes. You sure there isn't some form of censorship taking place? Oh, none of my posts have mentioned the Monarchy.

[davethailand]

Can't admit that underestimating the protest determination from the start by the government and many others has caused this situation?

That is the undeniable fact.......because if the potential had been assessed correctly the protest would not have been allowed to even enter Bangkok. That is what this regime is also guilty of......complacency!!!!

Oh I'm sure Thaksin was guilty of complacency in his time too....so that will make everything, even and the deaths, ok then....in your world?

Get real- Prime Minister Abhisit has been on the record clearly stating that welcomes free speech and peaceful protest, but when the red shirts go from peaceful protest to illegal occupation the government has to act to restore law and order. A small minority can not be allowed to disrupt the lives of the majority. The only thing Abhisit is guilty of is being too patient and too soft with the mob and their criminal leaders. Glad to see he's finally putting his foot down.

hear hear.

:-

[helvetian]

Abhisit is a madman. Instead of negotiating with the red shirts (farmers, Thailand's poor, etc), addressing their problems and concerns, he decided to use violence and force to break up their protests and ends up killing them, in a sad and desperate attempt to hold onto power at all cost.

This is no democracy, this is a dictatorship trying to hold on at all cost, no matter how many Thais die.

[helvetian]

Here is the proof that government forces have shot live bullets at the red shirts, not into the air as claimed by Abhisit:

Video Link

[whiterussian]

Abhisit is a madman. Instead of negotiating with the red shirts (farmers, Thailand's poor, etc), addressing their problems and concerns, he decided to use violence and force to break up their protests and ends up killing them, in a sad and desperate attempt to hold onto power at all cost.

This is no democracy, this is a dictatorship trying to hold on at all cost, no matter how many Thais die.

I doubt HE did anything at all...

he is just window dressing... very 'nice' window dressing and probably very good at economics etc..

he just lost his best asset: 'niceness'

and now his strings are in plain sight.

Edited April 10, 2010 by whiterussian

[davethailand]

Abhisit is a madman. Instead of negotiating with the red shirts (farmers, Thailand's poor, etc), addressing their problems and concerns, he decided to use violence and force to break up their protests and ends up killing them, in a sad and desperate attempt to hold onto power at all cost.

This is no democracy, this is a dictatorship trying to hold on at all cost, no matter how many Thais die.

all one sided of course!

Edited April 10, 2010 by davethailand

[thepodest]

To me it looks like it was the protesters that used REAL bullets, not the troops.

[helvetian]

All except the below, which are facts:

- Abhisit hasn't addressed the concerns of the poor.

- Abhisit has ordered force to be used against protesters, including live ammunition, as shown in the video above.

- Abhisit's actions have killed 15 Thais so far, injuring nearly 600.

Other than that, it's one sided, yes.

[davethailand]

To me it looks like it was the protesters that used REAL bullets, not the troops.

theres no smoke without fire.

:-

[473geo]

Perhaps if the army had not shown up to remove the protestors - nobody would be shooting any live ammunition.

[helvetian]

To me it looks like it was the protesters that used REAL bullets, not the troops.

Does the guy at the end of this video look like a protester or like a soldier? Note the fire coming out of his gun. No rubber bullets.

[jucel]

Here is the proof that government forces have shot live bullets at the red shirts, not into the air as claimed by Abhisit:

Video Link

just by looking at some of the pictures on facebook you can tell they were live rounds. plastic bullets dont take off the top of heads!

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3390...id=383671402050

[thepodest]

All except the below, which are facts:

- Abhisit hasn't addressed the concerns of the poor.

- Abhisit has ordered force to be used against protesters, including live ammunition, as shown in the video above.

- Abhisit's actions have killed 15 Thais so far, injuring nearly 600.

Other than that, it's one sided, yes.

What concerns??? I only remember hearing "DISSOLVE THE HOUSE" "WE WANT REELECTION" during the negotiation

[whiterussian]

Here is the proof that government forces have shot live bullets at the red shirts, not into the air as claimed by Abhisit:

Video Link

just by looking at some of the pictures on facebook you can tell they were live rounds. plastic bullets dont take off the top of heads!

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3390...id=383671402050

That might be a baton wound!?

[473geo]

All except the below, which are facts:

- Abhisit hasn't addressed the concerns of the poor.

- Abhisit has ordered force to be used against protesters, including live ammunition, as shown in the video above.

- Abhisit's actions have killed 15 Thais so far, injuring nearly 600.

Other than that, it's one sided, yes.

What concerns??? I only remember hearing "DISSOLVE THE HOUSE" "WE WANT REELECTION" during the negotiation

I think they have the impression nobody in BKK hears their voice.........

Was the house dissolved then??

[BigBikeBKK]

Abhisit is a madman. Instead of negotiating with the red shirts (farmers, Thailand's poor, etc), addressing their problems and concerns, he decided to use violence and force to break up their protests and ends up killing them, in a sad and desperate attempt to hold onto power at all cost.

This is no democracy, this is a dictatorship trying to hold on at all cost, no matter how many Thais die.

what rock do you live under? did you somehow miss the publicly televised negotiations that went on for several days between the government and red shirts? problem is, the red shirt leaders care about one thing only and it's certainly NOT the poor or the farmers. The government didn't crack down on the protesters in order to stay in power but rather to liberate Bangkok from a paid mob that has caused massive disruptions in the capitol of the nation. Calling the PM a dictator really makes you look quite ignorant- the legitimacy of this government has been verified as nauseum. No one had to die today- the red mob had plenty of time and warnings to leave. They chose to stay and fight and die while their fugitive criminal leader relaxes in Dubai. I feel sorry for these gullible pawns who have wasted their lives for something they don't even understand.

[helvetian]

All except the below, which are facts:

- Abhisit hasn't addressed the concerns of the poor.

- Abhisit has ordered force to be used against protesters, including live ammunition, as shown in the video above.

- Abhisit's actions have killed 15 Thais so far, injuring nearly 600.

Other than that, it's one sided, yes.

What concerns??? I only remember hearing "DISSOLVE THE HOUSE" "WE WANT REELECTION" during the negotiation

How bad is an election when Abhisit is so sure that he has the majority of the people backing him?