Thailand: Our Darkest Hour

[webfact]

Our darkest hour

By The Nation on Sunday

BANGKOK: -- Yesterday's bloodbath is a wake-up call to halt the slide towards anarchy

The saddest thing is everyone had predicted this and there were so many opportunities to prevent it. In the end, either the curse was too strong or the dark wills of some of those involved to see it happen simply overwhelmed efforts to stop it from happening. A nation that once thought it had matured learned the hardest way that it hadn't.

In terms of cruelty, October 6, 1976 was worse. And yesterday's death toll was lower than most previous political turbulences. It's the way a divided Thailand rolled relentlessly towards yesterday that exposed a national flaw bigger than the ones causing the previous tragedies. Despite everything - modern education, better political knowledge and everyone's claims to have "democracy" at heart - nothing could stop the bloodbath. And if rumours last night about a coup in the making come true, then the big wounds inflicted yesterday will only be aggravated.

It started off like a ceasefire day, with red-shirt protesters mulling a return to the Thaicom uplink station in Pathum Thani after PTV was taken off the air again on Friday night. Then skirmishes began near the Phan Fa Bridge between protesters and soldiers at the First Army Region headquarters, and soon after that tension escalated as troops formed lines to try to edge red shirts from the streets. Water cannon and tear gas were used, baton charge initiated and finally rubber bullets were fired.

The troops' mission, as the government declared later in the afternoon, was to "reclaim" public spaces as authorised under the state of emergency. The red shirts put up tough resistance, resulting in new skirmishes, which grew more violent as the hours passed. But our worst tragedy in 18 years took place at the Khok Wua intersection.

The government said troops fired rubber bullets and tear gas whereas demonstrators fought back with guns, grenades and petrol bombs.

Embattled Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva last night vowed to carry on and insisted that people must not jump to conclusions regarding who was to blame for the casualties. He promised an independent investigation and pledged that he would never allow personal interests to get in the way of government attempts to resolve what has become our biggest and bloodiest crisis in modern times.

With everyone equipped with better tools to record the violence, evidence will pour in over the next few days. Yet finger-pointing has already begun. The body of a red-shirted guard was carried onto the Phan Fa stage last night, as leaders of the movement tried to settle among themselves what should be their next move. Some wanted to "bring on the war", but others solemnly admitted that the losses were enough.

Calls for both warring parties to "stop immediately" were coming from all directions. Abhisit, if he manages to survive what promises to be a staggering backlash in the next few days, will be first under pressure to reconsider the state of emergency.

The heavy weight of the losses will also be measured against the inconvenience, economic turmoil, defiance and other behaviour of the red shirts. Previous government tolerance, displayed to the point that Abhisit was ridiculed for being weak, may not help his case much after all.

The uncertainties, however, are outweighed by the sad truth that the division that culminated in yesterday's bloodbath will only deepen. A TV programme last night that was supposed to find a way for Thailand to dig itself out of the current tragic impasse erupted into a blame game, with one side of speakers calling on the premier to show responsibility and the other saying the prelude to the clash must also be taken into account.

Talks will be renewed and the force of peace may have its rare chance to prevail. But even optimists cannot believe that an actual healing process can really begin any time soon. The nation, however, has no choice but to try.

-- The Nation 2010-04-11

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[MB1]

The government said troops fired rubber bullets and tear gas whereas demonstrators fought back with guns, grenades and petrol bombs.

That says it for me, the reds have through their leaders who have incited violence for weeks, have only themselves to blame, they wanted a fight and pushed and pushed and now they want to push the blame elsewhere.

Let the ones who incited this violence have their day in court and lets hope that Thai people realise that they were being used as cannon fodder.

[Jerrytheyoung]

I support the position of the Nation in what is a call for dialog.

Today is not the day to accuse anybody about the responsability of the events.

Today, we have to support the efforts of cooling down the situation.

Too many people are deaf and are not listening the arguments of the other side.

So difficult... We have to take on ourselves to avoid flaming the positions.

Nobody want Thailand slip into anarchy and Civil war.

I wish reason will prevail.

[eggomaniac]

see they did it again... revising history already

'everybody was predicting this'

the few of us who ACTUALLY were predicting these results, months ago, were roundly heckled.

Those of us who were WARNING the red movement was understimated in the Fall of 2009 were laughed at by packs of jackals.

----------------

'had chances to avoid this' AS IF

What the HEY does that supposed to mean??? one side caves in? HUH?

The only chance Thailand 'had', and still HAS was and is to listen those of us who really did predict these outcomes, not in 'the rear view mirror I knew it sense'.

Can I talk slow so you will all understand this, lives are at stake?

This--- is---- not ---- Thailand's --- darkest ----hour !

That ---- is--- in--- the ---not too distant future, -----though .

It's only 8:30 PM, not MIDNIGHT, SO Predict it now, instead of arguing, or argue now and then say you knew it all along.

The Joseph Solution and The Joseph Plan would extinguish all of Thaksin's influence on Thailand in ways both the Reds and Yellows would be agreeable towards.

Not allowed to talk about it though, even if it means saving lives? and lifting Thailand up to potentail it has to be a truly Great Kingdom!?

...

Edited April 11, 2010 by eggomaniac

[theoldgit]

The soldiers who were used on this terrible day in Thailand's history are no more than poor kids who have probably been forced into the army having lost during the ballot process, most of the red shirted protesters are poor people who have been whipped into a frenzy by the so called red shirt leaders, who retire to their luxury hotels every night.

There are no winners after these tragic events, lets just hope and pray that everyone takes a step back and reflects on their actions, and works tirelessly together to find a solution that avoids any further unnecessary bloodshed, but I assume that the perceived loss of face actually means more than the lives of their fellow countrymen.

[neverdie]

^Very sad state of affairs, isnt it TOG.

[otherstuff1957]

When groups of people gather on the street it is very difficult not to get swept up in a kind of group mentality. People get caught up in a tide of emotion. In the end, protesters were fighting for each other and soldiers were reacting to seeing their friends shot at or injured by bombs.

Once the fighting starts, it's almost impossible for cooler heads to prevail. I just hope that today both sides will calm down and talk to each other reasonably. If the leaders can refrain from empty rhetoric designed to stir up emotions, peace and reason will have a chance to carry the day.

Edited April 11, 2010 by otherstuff1957

[eggomaniac]

The soldiers who were used on this terrible day in Thailand's history are no more than poor kids who have probably been forced into the army having lost during the ballot process, most of the red shirted protesters are poor people who have been whipped into a frenzy by the so called red shirt leaders, who retire to their luxury hotels every night.

There are no winners after these tragic events, lets just hope and pray that everyone takes a step back and reflects on their actions, and works tirelessly together to find a solution that avoids any further unnecessary bloodshed, but I assume that the perceived loss of face actually means more than the lives of their fellow countrymen.

There is a Solution. I discussed it with Thai academics when I was in Thailand, as well as Red Movement members, some Yellow shirts and many White Shirts, as well as representative of the KPI.

They all LIKED my concepts. No lie, a few even came to tears at the beauty of the Solution.

They suggested I take it to Media, but that is not allowed. Catch 33 huh?

[Microwave]

I reckon we all hope that renewed talks between the Abhisit government and the Red leaders will defuse the situation, hopefully on a permanent basis and not just on a temporary basis.

In my opinion, the Abhisit government has acted with extreme leniency towards the red shirts. I can't think of any other government which would allow itself, many of its citizens, and the country's economic heart to be held hostage to mob rule for almost 1 month. We all hope that yesterday will be the end of poor rural soldiers and poor rural farmers being forced to square off against one another. In my opinion, the fact that it took almost 1 month to get to that point shows extreme leniency on the part of the Abhisit government. Yesterday could have been much much worse.

[toptuan]

The soldiers who were used on this terrible day in Thailand's history are no more than poor kids who have probably been forced into the army having lost during the ballot process, most of the red shirted protesters are poor people who have been whipped into a frenzy by the so called red shirt leaders, who retire to their luxury hotels every night.

"Old men fight wars, but it is the young men who must die."

[MellowYellow]

The saddest thing is everyone had predicted this and there were so many opportunities to prevent it. In the end, either the curse was too strong or the dark wills of some of those involved to see it happen simply overwhelmed efforts to stop it from happening

Who holds the leash on the military?

Those that released the dogs of war are ultimately responsible.

Those protesters who engaged in the violence are also responsible.

But, if the army doesn't enter the fight, there is not a fight.

[JonUSA]

I had said sooo many times that the red shirts should not have been dismissed and ridiculed. Not that they have been on the side of 'right' all along, but they most certainly had a point(s) all along. I feel badly for all sides and hope for the best outcome for all.

[londonthai]

The government said troops fired rubber bullets and tear gas whereas demonstrators fought back with guns, grenades and petrol bombs.

That says it for me, the reds have through their leaders who have incited violence for weeks, have only themselves to blame, they wanted a fight and pushed and pushed and now they want to push the blame elsewhere.

Let the ones who incited this violence have their day in court and lets hope that Thai people realise that they were being used as cannon fodder.

no, the red leaders were not about violence on the streets, but the general election.

The dead numbers (14 civilians including a foreign journalist killed by the soldiers and 4 soldiers) and 700 hospitalised wounded point to the soldiers using force and guns, and not merely dispersing crowds with rubber bullets and tear gas, which suppose to be harmless

Edited April 11, 2010 by londonthai

[Jarearn]

The saddest thing is everyone had predicted this and there were so many opportunities to prevent it. In the end, either the curse was too strong or the dark wills of some of those involved to see it happen simply overwhelmed efforts to stop it from happening

Who holds the leash on the military?

Those that released the dogs of war are ultimately responsible.

Those protesters who engaged in the violence are also responsible.

But, if the army doesn't enter the fight, there is not a fight.

The UDD claim to be "non-violent". Their actions speak otherwise.

The military is compelled to violence in matters of security of the state.

[anotherpeter]

The saddest thing is everyone had predicted this and there were so many opportunities to prevent it. In the end, either the curse was too strong or the dark wills of some of those involved to see it happen simply overwhelmed efforts to stop it from happening

Who holds the leash on the military?

Those that released the dogs of war are ultimately responsible.

Those protesters who engaged in the violence are also responsible.

But, if the army doesn't enter the fight, there is not a fight.

If the protestors don't continuously break into government institutions there would not be a fight either. Until they started doing that, they were pretty much free to do what they wanted. But they kept on upping the ante. They were itching for a fight. The red leaders have been inciting violence since day 1. The red leaders got what they were asking for.

[simpathy]

The soldiers who were used on this terrible day in Thailand's history are no more than poor kids who have probably been forced into the army having lost during the ballot process, most of the red shirted protesters are poor people who have been whipped into a frenzy by the so called red shirt leaders, who retire to their luxury hotels every night.

There are no winners after these tragic events, lets just hope and pray that everyone takes a step back and reflects on their actions, and works tirelessly together to find a solution that avoids any further unnecessary bloodshed, but I assume that the perceived loss of face actually means more than the lives of their fellow countrymen.

There is a Solution. I discussed it with Thai academics when I was in Thailand, as well as Red Movement members, some Yellow shirts and many White Shirts, as well as representative of the KPI.

They all LIKED my concepts. No lie, a few even came to tears at the beauty of the Solution.

They suggested I take it to Media, but that is not allowed. Catch 33 huh?

why dont you state your case here.

you do know academics can be a bit kooky!

Edited April 11, 2010 by simpathy

[Xangsamhua]

The soldiers who were used on this terrible day in Thailand's history are no more than poor kids who have probably been forced into the army having lost during the ballot process, most of the red shirted protesters are poor people who have been whipped into a frenzy by the so called red shirt leaders, who retire to their luxury hotels every night.

There are no winners after these tragic events, lets just hope and pray that everyone takes a step back and reflects on their actions, and works tirelessly together to find a solution that avoids any further unnecessary bloodshed, but I assume that the perceived loss of face actually means more than the lives of their fellow countrymen.

There is a Solution. I discussed it with Thai academics when I was in Thailand, as well as Red Movement members, some Yellow shirts and many White Shirts, as well as representative of the KPI.

They all LIKED my concepts. No lie, a few even came to tears at the beauty of the Solution.

They suggested I take it to Media, but that is not allowed. Catch 33 huh?

What, briefly, is the Solution and why is it not allowed in the media? Is it not allowed on Thaivisa also?

[anotherpeter]

The government said troops fired rubber bullets and tear gas whereas demonstrators fought back with guns, grenades and petrol bombs.

That says it for me, the reds have through their leaders who have incited violence for weeks, have only themselves to blame, they wanted a fight and pushed and pushed and now they want to push the blame elsewhere.

Let the ones who incited this violence have their day in court and lets hope that Thai people realise that they were being used as cannon fodder.

no, the red leaders were not about violence on the streets, but the general election.

The dead numbers (14 civilians including a foreign journalist killed by the soldiers and 4 soldiers) and 700 hospitalised wounded point to the soldiers using force and guns, and not merely dispersing crowds with rubber bullets and tear gas, which suppose to be harmless

Every second word that the red leaders spoke was about violence. "Bring empty bottles to Bangkok. You can fill them up with petrol here. We will burn Bangkok to the ground" ... ON DAY ONE!

[MellowYellow]

The government said troops fired rubber bullets and tear gas whereas demonstrators fought back with guns, grenades and petrol bombs.

That says it for me, the reds have through their leaders who have incited violence for weeks, have only themselves to blame, they wanted a fight and pushed and pushed and now they want to push the blame elsewhere.

Let the ones who incited this violence have their day in court and lets hope that Thai people realise that they were being used as cannon fodder.

no, the red leaders were not about violence on the streets, but the general election.

The dead numbers (14 civilians including a foreign journalist killed by the soldiers and 4 soldiers) and 700 hospitalised wounded point to the soldiers using force and guns, and not merely dispersing crowds with rubber bullets and tear gas, which suppose to be harmless

Every second word that the red leaders spoke was about violence. "Bring empty bottles to Bangkok. You can fill them up with petrol here. We will burn Bangkok to the ground" ... ON DAY ONE!

And yet, the real violence never materialized until the army descended upon them with weapons.

[simpathy]

The soldiers who were used on this terrible day in Thailand's history are no more than poor kids who have probably been forced into the army having lost during the ballot process, most of the red shirted protesters are poor people who have been whipped into a frenzy by the so called red shirt leaders, who retire to their luxury hotels every night.

There are no winners after these tragic events, lets just hope and pray that everyone takes a step back and reflects on their actions, and works tirelessly together to find a solution that avoids any further unnecessary bloodshed, but I assume that the perceived loss of face actually means more than the lives of their fellow countrymen.

There is a Solution. I discussed it with Thai academics when I was in Thailand, as well as Red Movement members, some Yellow shirts and many White Shirts, as well as representative of the KPI.

They all LIKED my concepts. No lie, a few even came to tears at the beauty of the Solution.

They suggested I take it to Media, but that is not allowed. Catch 33 huh?

What, briefly, is the Solution and why is it not allowed in the media? Is it not allowed on Thaivisa also?

maybe he needs some form of compensation. not easy saving thailand.

DARN THE BTS IS CLOSED!

[RickBradford]

But, if the army doesn't enter the fight, there is not a fight.

What are they supposed to do? Stand there and be shot, stabbed with bamboo sticks, or burned by Molotov cocktails?

It's easy to preach non-violence from the safety of a keyboard.

[Thai at Heart]

Watch this. There is another video he has taken from the protest site.

Gives an odd insight into how organised and apparently compassionate the protests/protesters are.

http://www.youtube.com/user/thaifaq#p/a/u/1/AATZQeLIUCY

Someone shot first.

http://www.youtube.com/user/thaifaq#p/a/u/0/ztF6hUryt88

Considering the calm situation and proximity of the groups before hand, I have my opinion.

[noel2499rk]

This video is taken at around 7 pm last night at democracy monument, this is when colonel Sansern says the first bombs were thrown by reds, no evidence of that here. Shows the reds having a party dancing and singing before troops start to move on them.

The only source saying the protesters were armed is the army, there were many international journalists on the scene none of whom are saying reds were armed.

Hard to see whats going on in this video but I don't speak Thai maybe someone can explain what the guy is shouting about.

In the UK we had an incident where the army opened fire on protesters 30 jan 1972 in Derry, 27 unarmed civilians were shot 13 killed and to this day the British government will not officially admit the truth. Which is that the soldiers were so wound up by their commanding officers to the apparent dangers they acted as soldiers are trained to in a war situation and started shooting.

So don't hold your breath on finding out the truth any time soon

[JUDAS]

This video is taken at around 7 pm last night at democracy monument, this is when colonel Sansern says the first bombs were thrown by reds, no evidence of that here. Shows the reds having a party dancing and singing before troops start to move on them.

The only source saying the protesters were armed is the army, there were many international journalists on the scene none of whom are saying reds were armed.

Hard to see whats going on in this video but I don't speak Thai maybe someone can explain what the guy is shouting about.

In the UK we had an incident where the army opened fire on protesters 30 jan 1972 in Derry, 27 unarmed civilians were shot 13 killed and to this day the British government will not officially admit the truth. Which is that the soldiers were so wound up by their commanding officers to the apparent dangers they acted as soldiers are trained to in a war situation and started shooting.

So don't hold your breath on finding out the truth any time soon

In the second video the guy is calling for people to stop and shouting "don't hurt the army, don't hurt the people" at least thats my understanding with my limited Thai language.

[eagleflyinghigh]

/quote]

What, briefly, is the Solution and why is it not allowed in the media? Is it not allowed on Thaivisa also?

The question is how you can dismantle a clique (the ruling elite) claiming to protect and being in return protected without dismantling the protected themselves.

Brainwashing starts at school and continues each day at 8 AM and 6 PM and in all movie theaters. Difficult to build a democracy without freedom of thinking and freedom of speech.

Patriotism, nationalism and racism in its purest and most dangerous form.

[siampolee]

Interesting videos that align with my ideas that all is not as it seems regarding the current situation.

Baht speculation ?

Been done before.

George Soros, Thaksin Adnam Khashogni , ( Bilderberg practice run ?) and a few more of Thaksins cronies made a baht or two in1997.

Economic warfare is indeed very profitable for the victors, large profits and a country to boot all paid for in the currency of blood of the gullible followers who lose out all round and along with their country are left in debt bondage for their lives and their children's lives.

[SomTumTiger]

But in the end, its same as always. Rich Man's War, Poor Man's Fight.

Thaksin, wherever he is, has the blood of innocents on his hands. He is, ultimately, the responsible party. His money funded the protestors presence, his money funded the protestors arms, his money funded the protestors vitrol. His lies, arrogence, and self serving agenda, dressed up and displayed as a 'love for democracy", only serve to advance his own selfish motives.

The current government offered to dissolve the house early, the Reds said no. The current government offered to ammend the consititution (a Thakin/PTP original idea, which is not "convienient and expediant"), they said no. The red leadership is not interested in democracy. The red followers? There are probable many who do, which is why today's events are all the sadder. The fact that the rich can use the "democratic ideology" to manipulate the actions of the poor into producing violent outcomes, is tragic.

Thailand has many flaws. There are many great people but their voices are usually drowned out by many more idiots (not unlike TV, is it). The militant wing of the Red leadership wanted this to happen, and they were prepared to do whatever they could to instigate it. Unfortunately, they have a government who appear calm, conciliatory, and remorseful, (in a word - mature), and that, they do not know how to deal with. Abhisit's call for an independent investigation panel probably has the red PR machine spinning. I don't think anyone doubts that there is blame in the Red militant wing, and inexperienced or vengful army officers determined to do wrong. Its sad that they had to meet like this, and the results will be a scar on the soul of the country for years to come.

How did we get here? What is the way forward. I am sure the government will be happy to listen to the calls for peace talks, and reconciliation talks. Unfortunately, when the Red side is not interested in such talks, the outcome will be the same. I will not be posting on these issues any more, because the problems are so much larger than me, and the vitrol and bile these threads bring out is so savage and disquieting, that I know my soul will be better served by removing myself from the discusion.

I pray for the country's leadership. I pray for my friends and family in the Kingdom, and I pray for the renewed health of its highest institution. The only way I can help is to continue to contribute in my community, in a positive way. I will do this with renewed vigor, and leave the polictical pundantry to those who have too much time on their hands.

[khunjamespittman]

It was a dark day for a great country. The fact that soldiers that are supposed to protect the country and its people were ordered fire the guns at other Thais and to trample their fellow Thais ( family, friends, and neighbors) by a politician trying to hold on his power by disenfranchising a segment of the population who disagrees with the way the sitting government came to power without giving the poor, in fact all Thais and opportunity to elect the government they want to represent them and the way they are being treated and are asking for redress of the situation by holding an early independently monitored national election so their will can be voiced with their votes.

We were close to a solution before yesterday when the politicians chose to order the Thai soldiers to take down the opposition using guns.

The way out of this is to have new men of good will in the government to address the problems the the opposition by calling for an early national election with a realistic time schedule for disolving the Parliment and holding an internationally monitored national election (stop demanding a silly 9 month schedule). The opposition should also signal their willingness to agree on a schedule that based on the ability to hold the national referendum. The negotiation then should proceed the mechanics of holding the election. The time for excuses and delays is over.

[somtampet]

This video is taken at around 7 pm last night at democracy monument, this is when colonel Sansern says the first bombs were thrown by reds, no evidence of that here. Shows the reds having a party dancing and singing before troops start to move on them.

The only source saying the protesters were armed is the army, there were many international journalists on the scene none of whom are saying reds were armed.

Hard to see whats going on in this video but I don't speak Thai maybe someone can explain what the guy is shouting about.

In the UK we had an incident where the army opened fire on protesters 30 jan 1972 in Derry, 27 unarmed civilians were shot 13 killed and to this day the British government will not officially admit the truth. Which is that the soldiers were so wound up by their commanding officers to the apparent dangers they acted as soldiers are trained to in a war situation and started shooting.

So don't hold your breath on finding out the truth any time soon

A bad and unforgiveably incident,but,again,what would have happened if the army would have let them continue.Bricks,stones,catapults,coctails are weapons.How many soldiers did the ira murder also,as they were not freedom fighters but a bunch of killers,tortourers,bank robbers,drug dealers.

[khunjamespittman]

When I watched the attack on the opposition demonstrators by the soldiers, I recalled when the US National Guard General arrived in New Orleans with the National Guard soldiers after the hurricane disaster. The National Guard is usually is commanded in each of the states by the Govenors. By this time the Govenor had authorized the activation of the National Guard into the US Army.

The soldiers came riding in on trucks with their weapons pointed outward.

General Honore saw that immediately stopped the trucks and ordered the soldiers to point their guns at the ground and never again point them at an American. If they did they were told that they could face a courts martial (a military tiral). That was the sign of a General who knows that a national Army is to protect the country and its people, not to fight its people.

Unfortunately what we saw yesterday was politicians who chose to order Thai soldiers to fire their guns at other Thai citizens.

We also saw Thai military leaders who, unlike General Honore in New Orleans, ordered their subordinates to fire their weapons at other Thais. It was a disgraceful day for country of Thailand.