Red Shirt Leaders Flee As Thai Forces Surround Hotel

[Neurath]

this exercise was planned to fail from the start..

get the real swat squad in now....

.... and get rid of the squat wad

[noahvail]

It has been interesting to come to this discussion late and read some 20 pages, so 3 different bits in one post:

When Mr Arisman had to appear before his fellow sleepers to explain why he and the other leaders were in a hotel, I am surprised that he did not simply quote from Orwell's 'Animal Farm.' Those of you who've read it should get a chuckle; those of you who have not, give it a read. It's quick, fun, and informative - makes you think a bit.

As far as the word "terrorist" goes, it was initially used to describe the several teams of shooters in black balaclavas who sniped at (it would appear) both sides. Somehow, the term has grown from those teams who Sae Dang said were his "Ronin" warriors, to encompass all Red Shirts. Seems to me that was never the intention, but somehow those who speak for the Red Shirts feel that they have all been painted with the same broad brush. I can't imagine any argument saying "all Red Shirts are terrorists," no more than I can imagine a proper argument that "all Issan people are uneducated" and so on. Absolutes in speech are very dangerous, especially in these trying times.

I'm curious as to when "democracy" replaced the word "republic." In a democracy, each citizen is given a vote - on every single item to come up before their legislative bodies. It would be a very cumbersome task, and was last used, if memory serves, 2 or 3 thousand years ago in Greece. A republic is where each citizen of a given area within a country is given a vote to elect a person to represent him/her in a legislative body. After that, the representative is charged with voting according to his area's wishes, whether he does so or not. I'm not sure why people are shouting for a return to democracy in a modern country. In medical terms, if you can't diagnose the condition properly, you can't treat it. In politics, if you can't use the name of something properly....

Further to that, in a parliamentary system such as in Thailand, if one party has a clear majority of representatives (50.1% or more), the party elects a Prime Minister from its representatives. If no party holds a clear majority, coalitions are formed to bring the total to 50.1% or more combined. If no coalition can be reached, another election is held (not sure about Thailand, only about the few countries that have a parliamentary system that I've looked at or lived in).

I don't know Thai political history to this extent, but I'm not aware of any recent elections where any one party held more at least 50.1% of the vote by itself, so coalition governments were formed. If there have been, could someone please provide me with a link? Thanks :-)

[FreedomDude]

For once, I'm happy that we can ONLY link to articles from the Nation. After seeing this posted as (CORRECTION: the NUMBER 1 Story at the top of the first page!!) with the video and all of the happy, happy joy-joy music, let there be no doubt that, sadly, Thailand's most visited English discussion forum is far, far from lacking bias in its News Clippings and discussions that benefit from easy links to evidence supporting arguement points. Here it is:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...b-30127267.html

Can you imagine the Nation posting a similar video for the Reds?

Edited April 16, 2010 by FreedomDude

[asiawatcher]

If the governments actions are all above board, if they have nothing to hide, and if the country is behind them, let there be free and fair internationally monitored elections "so the red shirts can be well and truly put in their place."

This Is Burma.

You are a dreamer if you believe this can happen with the mentality of the Red Shirts at this time

What justice has ever been don ee by a lnych mob

I am a nuteral observer

and agree with all you say with a period of 6-8 months for Thailand to settle down

Election yes

But when the time is right for the Thai people

Not for the pleasure of people like yourself

This is their country, we can have an opinion, but have no right to tell them what to do

Agree - dissolution of parliament now will achieve absolutely nothing - what - you want to hand over this country to the mob? Get a life.... Murderers, kidnappers, no law, no order - all a really good example of positive road to democracy...

[hpl]

Seeing through the mist of tear gas

Giles Ji Ungpakorn

After the recent bloodshed on the streets of Bangkok, ...

Giles Ji Ungpakorn?

<deleted>??

Sounds like a Frenchman who married a Thai and took her name.

Screed is a load of redshirt crap, like is in all the doorways at Rajaprasong.

he has some very insightful things to say - not sure your reading skills are up to it though if you have your yellow specs on

Yes, his Red Siam Manifesto is well worth a read to show off his ideas.

I defy anyone to have 10 Thais read it and see if even 1 agrees with it.

[Puccini]

I must say that today’s episode of the red-shirt soap opera about the non-arrest of red-shirt leaders was beautifully scripted, directed and performed. I would have improved only one thing: I would have made Arisman climb down the rope, not just get him lowered down with somebody at the top feeding out the rope. Also, I would have included a scene with the red-shirt leaders showing their appreciation to the “kidnapped” high-ranking officers of the uniformed team for their rescue from the claws of the covert team of policemen, for example a wai or a pat on the back or envelopes changing hands.

[Jerrytheyoung]

----------------------

Meanwhile the Army base has conscripted a mob of PAD human shields.

So spontaneous, so spontaneous.

Thailand is another set of murderous assaults on demonstrators away from basket case status.

Army entranched in its Camp and protected by PAD ???/

[LuckyLew]

the SC Park Hotel

http://www.scparkhotel.com/

this hotel is known to be owned by the fugitive Thaksin

it should be closed forthwith for harbouring wanted fugitives

if they refuse to close then cut the power, water supplies, revoke all the drink, dining and dancing licenses and arrest the management for aiding and abetting fugitives

send the staff home on full pay at the hotels expense

this is a message that should be relayed to all other hotels anywhere in the kingdom, that accept red shirts under arrest warrant as hotel guests

if the red leaders want to be at one with their red brethren then let them sleep on the floor in the street with them instead of bunking up in a 4* hotel

Agree - a clear message now is necessary - Takki Shinega aka Thaksin Shinawatra is now Thailand's Osama Bin Laden. He is financing terrorists, using his 'assets' in his fight and now has acts of murder, kidnapping, complete disregard for law and order and Thailand at large all 62M of them are fed up to the back teeth with this narcissist sociopath.

Time for Interpol to step in and arrest him for what he is - a terrorist of the worst order.

not quite 62M are fed up

maybe 61 900 000

Apparently that's how many red shirt terrorist supporters

coming and going from Rajaprasong

[mindful]

hmmmm...

often the truth of any matter lies between the extremes...

RE: Thai government/military/police-

Reds say- murderous lackeys of dictator..

Farang(?)/others say- incompetent and/or not supporting one another

Let's consider just for a moment...

that the Thai government/military/police may be on to something...

and however improbable...

may actually know what they are doing... and acting in the best interest of the majority of Thai people!

I Ching

Hexagram 8 - Holding Together

Nine in the fifth place means:

Manifestation of holding together.

In the hunt the king uses beaters on three sides only

And forgoes game that runs off in front.

The citizens need no warning.

Good fortune.

In the royal hunts of ancient China it was customary to drive up the game from three sides, but on the fourth the animals had a chance to run off. If they failed to do this they had to pass through a gate behind which the king stood ready to shoot. Only animals that entered here were shot; those that ran off in front were permitted to escape. This custom accorded with a kingly attitude; the royal hunter did not wish to turn the chase into a slaughter, but held that the kill should consist only of those animals which had so to speak

voluntarily exposed themselves.

Hexagram 30 - Fire

Nine at the top means:

The king used him to march forth and chastise.

Then it is best to kill the leaders

And take captive the followers. No blame.

It is not the purpose of chastisement to impose punishment blindly but to

create discipline. Evil must be cured at its roots. To eradicate evil in political

life, it is best to kill the ringleaders and spare the followers. In educating

oneself it is best to root out bad habits and tolerate those that are harmless.

For asceticism that is too strict, like sentences of undue severity, fails in its

purpose.

If I were to arrest any protest leaders who are leading others in criminal and terrorist acts, i would:

1. give such leaders plenty of rope to hang themselves prior to capture and/or give themselves up, and/or work cooperatively to agreement;
   • to give followers ample opportunity to see the truth about their leaders (divide & conquer?)
     • so followers have an opportunity to see where they are being led & decide if they want to go there.
       
     • provide time for any followers who were not "die-hard" to follow, to go home or stand clear
       

[*]to insure that public opinion of the silent majority overwhelming would support "final" "decisive" (LOL) action; even if followers were hurt while taking the leaders.

[*]attempt to "test the waters"

[*]try to flush out criminals/organized crime players; who win if there is corrupt rule or if there is chaos of attempted good rule.

[*]gain ample evidence to properly arrest, hold without bail, try and convict such persons.

[*]run through as much legislation to support/help the masses and limit corruption as is possible while small battles are conducted

Then- once sure all important elements were in my favor .. then I would take them,

1. decisively
   
2. with minimum innocents hurt
   
3. minimum protest afterward- even if capture does get bloody
   
4. maximum public opinion/support nationally and internationally
   
5. maximum evidence & support to try & convict & jail such persons.
   

Winning battles is not winning a war.

In my humble opinion; the current government & the people need to win the war against ignorance & corruption.

Khun Thaksin & the Red protest are a symptom that can be nicely used to get to the true illness, make the Thai people more aware, and implement balance/a cure with support or agreement at all levels.

but what do i know... i am just a dreamer...

[Slip]

<snipped for brevity>

As far as the word "terrorist" goes, it was initially used to describe the several teams of shooters in black balaclavas who sniped at (it would appear) both sides. Somehow, the term has grown from those teams who Sae Dang said were his "Ronin" warriors, to encompass all Red Shirts. Seems to me that was never the intention, but somehow those who speak for the Red Shirts feel that they have all been painted with the same broad brush. I can't imagine any argument saying "all Red Shirts are terrorists," no more than I can imagine a proper argument that "all Issan people are uneducated" and so on. Absolutes in speech are very dangerous, especially in these trying times.

This for some reason made me think of the Vietnam war and how the general populace was caught between the communists and the government sympathisers. And the thing is similarly, the black shirted paramilitaries are hiding in the red crowd. Maybe it's an Asian thing. The difference is that the protestors can easily return home.

People keep drawing comparisons to Western countries. In the UK I think 99% of the protestors would have gone home long, long ago. Many in disgust at their own leaders.

[gymboy33]

What I find interesting is the fact that although we are told that farang opinions don't matter, a massive influx of new Red TV members have signed up to argue their case with those whose opinions don't matter.

The international reach of the searchable web means that our poking holes in

Thaksins Perception Management exercise is seen and considered world wide.

So he must csend in 'counter-blogger teams' and try and derail our logical skewering of his plans,

using propaganda sound bite style repetition, and ad hominum attacks on the

more logical and clear sighted here. It's a battle for hearts and minds, and later pocketbooks.

And if the red shirts do cause and win a (deleted), Thaksin needs to have

bought for himself and his puppets, some sort of widely viewed moral high ground position,

or the big players world wide, like energy companies, will go Burma on him

and call him Pariah and shut him out.

The more the truth will out the hard it is for him to build and defend this false image.

We are countering a successful end game for his avaricious attempt to take over this lovely country.

Thanks, I really haven't wanted to say the words

i think yr getting a bit carried AWAY with your parts..

I havent heardone single reference to the blogasphere in any media reports..

I wonder if yr poster boy will show his face today???

Or will he stay hiding away?

[britmaveric]

Still no word from Abhisit? Makes you actually wonder who is in control???

Edited April 16, 2010 by britmaveric

[LuckyLew]

Remember the good old days

What once was found

now is lost

Amazing grace

Amazing Thailand

[Chaimai]

^Yes those that support the red shirts should counter all rubbish posted by those detractors who are preventing the fruits of democracy from being picked. The red shirts will make thailand a more prosperous and happy place through free elections and the resignation of the current puppet regime.

Brit you have been here long enough to know that the elections will not be free and fair and never have been.

Cheers, Rick

Doesn't stop us hoping that one day they might be.

[blackman]

Pretty fair rope work for a fat man. Do you reckon he trained for that?

He does a funny verbal dance too, a real Renaissance man.

THE NATION: "They planned to kill me. They planned to kill me," Arisman has told foreign press. "There were two (unexploded) bombs in my room"

Funny as, Jingthing. But you reinforce your ignorance every time you open your mouth.

Flash bangs followed up by a wall of fire- but Arisman was already out the window. Another Red Shirt guard is in ICU after what was clearly a failed assassination attempt. Very funny indeed.

this room is a reflection of how much affection Thaksin and the kids think of the goon Arisman

they probably thought he would wreck it anyway so they gave him a staff room

[modfive]

Hey I got a question..

Some news articles say there was as many as 30,000 + reds in town a few days ago..

but, now they say there are only 3,000-4,000.

Is this true? did so many really leave, and, if so - why?

to enjoy Songkran with their families?

Perhaps this is why they were being moved on by Police (because they are currently low in numbers)

So, what is the deal?

Are the reds waiting for more of their people to come back into town or is nobody else coming?

I'm just interested in hearing from someone who knows these sort of details.

[ozzieman05]

Pretty fair rope work for a fat man. Do you reckon he trained for that?

He does a funny verbal dance too, a real Renaissance man.

THE NATION: "They planned to kill me. They planned to kill me," Arisman has told foreign press. "There were two (unexploded) bombs in my room"

Funny as, Jingthing. But you reinforce your ignorance every time you open your mouth.

Flash bangs followed up by a wall of fire- but Arisman was already out the window. Another Red Shirt guard is in ICU after what was clearly a failed assassination attempt. Very funny indeed.

this room is a reflection of how much affection Thaksin and the kids think of the goon Arisman

they probably thought he would wreck it anyway so they gave him a staff room

Or maybe they knew what was going to happen ahead of time and did not want to wreck his normal apartment room

[LuckyLew]

Hey I got a question..

Some news articles say there was as many as 30,000 + reds in town a few days ago..

but, now they say there are only 3,000-4,000.

Is this true? did so many really leave, and, if so - why?

to enjoy Songkran with their families?

Perhaps this is why they were being moved on by Police (because they are currently low in numbers)

So, what is the deal?

Are the reds waiting for more of their people to come back into town or is nobody else coming?

I'm just interested in hearing from someone who knows these sort of details.

If there is only 3 or 4K they should get 50 000 troops

Move in and retake the area

Move in armed to the hilts ... see a red with a weapon

shot him or her on the spot!! We know reds do not play

fair ...

We all know this has no happy ending ... git'er done

[Neurath]

By the way, need some new shirts next week - has anyone got any idea which colors are still free of political statements?

red is most certainly out - yellow is taken - pink .. naa not my choice as a color - black I like but there is the political/terrorist statement again .. is white still available?

Yes John, white is still available and I'd recommend buying up big. Perfect for funerals.

[humfurry]

It has been interesting to come to this discussion late and read some 20 pages, so 3 different bits in one post:

When Mr Arisman had to appear before his fellow sleepers to explain why he and the other leaders were in a hotel, I am surprised that he did not simply quote from Orwell's 'Animal Farm.' Those of you who've read it should get a chuckle; those of you who have not, give it a read. It's quick, fun, and informative - makes you think a bit.

As far as the word "terrorist" goes, it was initially used to describe the several teams of shooters in black balaclavas who sniped at (it would appear) both sides. Somehow, the term has grown from those teams who Sae Dang said were his "Ronin" warriors, to encompass all Red Shirts. Seems to me that was never the intention, but somehow those who speak for the Red Shirts feel that they have all been painted with the same broad brush. I can't imagine any argument saying "all Red Shirts are terrorists," no more than I can imagine a proper argument that "all Issan people are uneducated" and so on. Absolutes in speech are very dangerous, especially in these trying times.

I'm curious as to when "democracy" replaced the word "republic." In a democracy, each citizen is given a vote - on every single item to come up before their legislative bodies. It would be a very cumbersome task, and was last used, if memory serves, 2 or 3 thousand years ago in Greece. A republic is where each citizen of a given area within a country is given a vote to elect a person to represent him/her in a legislative body. After that, the representative is charged with voting according to his area's wishes, whether he does so or not. I'm not sure why people are shouting for a return to democracy in a modern country. In medical terms, if you can't diagnose the condition properly, you can't treat it. In politics, if you can't use the name of something properly....

Further to that, in a parliamentary system such as in Thailand, if one party has a clear majority of representatives (50.1% or more), the party elects a Prime Minister from its representatives. If no party holds a clear majority, coalitions are formed to bring the total to 50.1% or more combined. If no coalition can be reached, another election is held (not sure about Thailand, only about the few countries that have a parliamentary system that I've looked at or lived in).

I don't know Thai political history to this extent, but I'm not aware of any recent elections where any one party held more at least 50.1% of the vote by itself, so coalition governments were formed. If there have been, could someone please provide me with a link? Thanks :-)

Well I suppose that Arisman has never read Animal farm. He wouldn't know George Orwell from George the 3rd. He just doesn't seem to me to be the clever type.

Terrorist, well defining that has always been a bit ambiguous, and I think the it might be defined according to anyone's or any governments particular bias, and that based on personal beliefs or official position or law. A bit like pornography... I know it when I see it or maybe or this is how the law is written.

No point in responding to the election of a PM... if the posters here don't understand how a PM is elected then there is no point in trying to teach them about the origins of a republic. (It seems I have responded)

It's Friday night... I'm going to get pissed.

Cheers, Hummy

Edited April 16, 2010 by humfurry

[britmaveric]

^then mass casualties of troops\civilians will occur. Not to mention destruction of some very important real estate. Oh yeah that will go down well.

[humfurry]

And you're not spewing rhetoric?

[Skywalker69]

THis sort of action by the Thai "authorities" - who are clearly acting on the orders of a political party - the Democrats - just brings into the open how UNDEMOCRATIC the current order is - how can a political party order the arrest of demonstrators? - However it is presented - using terms like "terrorism" or "ill-intentioned" it does not look good to the world that those clearly involved in political protest are being pursued as criminals - this is simply not how democratic governments operate and is a paper-thin ruse.

I think you kind of missed the point. they are not to be arrested for protesting.

They are to be arrested for illegal actions, that may or may not have had to do with the protests,

but are considered CRIMINAL ACTS, under ANY situation.

Just because they are protesters, doesn't suddenly give them a free pass to be criminals.

When you have a mass demonstration, you do not arrest the leaders, you will have to negotiate with them. However you can sue them and bring the story to the Court after the conflict. What if we have arrested Cohn Bendit during May 68? the balance of actions is done after, everybody suing each other but not DURING it is an unsafe provocation.

Those who have engaged army Saturday are also responsible and can be considered as blood tainted, as well they should be arrested.

It was the reds whom broke the negotiations, demanding (ordering) Abhisit to desolve the parlament in 14-15 days. What kind of negotions is that?

[Jerrytheyoung]

Hey I got a question..

Some news articles say there was as many as 30,000 + reds in town a few days ago..

but, now they say there are only 3,000-4,000.

Is this true? did so many really leave, and, if so - why?

to enjoy Songkran with their families?

Perhaps this is why they were being moved on by Police (because they are currently low in numbers)

So, what is the deal?

Are the reds waiting for more of their people to come back into town or is nobody else coming?

I'm just interested in hearing from someone who knows these sort of details.

If there is only 3 or 4K they should get 50 000 troops

Move in and retake the area

Move in armed to the hilts ... see a red with a weapon

shot him or her on the spot!! We know reds do not play

fair ...

We all know this has no happy ending ... git'er done

Incredible .... Fascisme

[LuckyLew]

Hey I got a question..

Some news articles say there was as many as 30,000 + reds in town a few days ago..

but, now they say there are only 3,000-4,000.

Is this true? did so many really leave, and, if so - why?

to enjoy Songkran with their families?

Perhaps this is why they were being moved on by Police (because they are currently low in numbers)

So, what is the deal?

Are the reds waiting for more of their people to come back into town or is nobody else coming?

I'm just interested in hearing from someone who knows these sort of details.

If there is only 3 or 4K they should get 50 000 troops

Move in and retake the area

Move in armed to the hilts ... see a red with a weapon

shot him or her on the spot!! We know reds do not play

fair ...

We all know this has no happy ending ... git'er done

Incredible .... Fascisme

And red shirt terrorism is ok by you?

[lannarebirth]

I must say that today's episode of the red-shirt soap opera about the non-arrest of red-shirt leaders was beautifully scripted, directed and performed. I would have improved only one thing: I would have made Arisman climb down the rope, not just get him lowered down with somebody at the top feeding out the rope. Also, I would have included a scene with the red-shirt leaders showing their appreciation to the "kidnapped" high-ranking officers of the uniformed team for their rescue from the claws of the covert team of policemen, for example a wai or a pat on the back or envelopes changing hands.

It would have been funnier if the clown Arisman had split his pants or something as he clambered over the balcony. Now that's comedy!

[Skywalker69]

Time to call in Jimmy Carter? They could do worse.

Or the Dalton Brothers?

[Skywalker69]

Another news flash, the Democratic party is NOT "the yellows", that would actually be the PAD who have their own political party, just with no MP's.

(edited for factual errorz and sa-pelling)

Wasnt one of the 5 leaders of PAD, Somkiet Pongpaibul, a Democrat MP elected under the Democrat party list?

Still don't let get facts get in the way of your posts.

And don't let exaggeration get in the way of your posts. One MP out of over 200 does not equate to "the Democratic Party".

Unlike the Reds and Pheu Thai connection, which have far more than one.

Do not fool us, we all know the relation between the Democrats and the Yellows. Everybody has understood that the New Politic Party of the yellows is the back up solution in case of dissolution.

And we all know the relation between the Reds and Thaksin....right?

[hpl]

Another news flash, the Democratic party is NOT "the yellows", that would actually be the PAD who have their own political party, just with no MP’s.

(edited for factual errorz and sa-pelling)

Wasnt one of the 5 leaders of PAD, Somkiet Pongpaibul, a Democrat MP elected under the Democrat party list?

Still don't let get facts get in the way of your posts.

And don't let exaggeration get in the way of your posts. One MP out of over 200 does not equate to "the Democratic Party".

Unlike the Reds and Pheu Thai connection, which have far more than one.

Do not fool us, we all know the relation between the Democrats and the Yellows. Everybody has understood that the New Politic Party of the yellows is the back up solution in case of dissolution.

Not trying to fool anyone, just sticking to the facts and dispelling exaggerations. If you wish to show the relationship between the Democrats and the Yellows, you'll have to do so with something other than 1 Democrat MP's involvement.

Do you have anything else?

[britmaveric]

^abhisit - he even wore a yellow shirt at one of their events.