Did America Create Pattaya?

[hawthorne]

Lets find the cornerstone and see whos name is on it

[mark45y]

Maybe not created, but more like financed the the construction and provided the consumer base

At the risk of offending all the Vietnam veterans, there is a school of thought that holds that the use of Thailand as an R&R center, while meant to help, served only to create problems and eroded order and discipline within the military. If one looks at past experience of R&R centers in WWII, and the Korean War, although the discipline problems were there, the situation was managed and there was no breakdown of general discipline. The proof is in how foreign militaries treat the process now. One will never see the chronic wild excesses of the Vietnam era today. Always, always maintain discipline in the ranks and places like Pattaya only serve to corrupt and undermine the authority of the command structure.

I'm going to get bashaed for being a canary now.

No you're not, you are dead right.

ph

I think you bring up a couple of interesting topics. One about Vietnam troops being good or bad. Two about troops in general being celibate or restrained in their outside the combat zone activities. You might want to look up operation Moose in Saigon. There are of course a lot of people on both sides. I would imagine people who served in a combat zone for any length of time have vastly different opinions than arm chair soldiers who look at a combat zone from afar or those who served in a different war. The average GI in WW II in the Pacific saw 40 days of combat in four years. The average GI in Vietnam saw 240 days of combat in one year (helicopters you know).

But I don’t think that is what this thread is about.

I thank all the posters who have shared actual experiences about Pattaya in the early days. I sure have learned a lot about it that I didn’t know.

[ferd54]

Maybe not created, but more like financed the the construction and provided the consumer base

At the risk of offending all the Vietnam veterans, there is a school of thought that holds that the use of Thailand as an R&R center, while meant to help, served only to create problems and eroded order and discipline within the military. If one looks at past experience of R&R centers in WWII, and the Korean War, although the discipline problems were there, the situation was managed and there was no breakdown of general discipline. The proof is in how foreign militaries treat the process now. One will never see the chronic wild excesses of the Vietnam era today. Always, always maintain discipline in the ranks and places like Pattaya only serve to corrupt and undermine the authority of the command structure.

I'm going to get bashaed for being a canary now.

There was a general breakdown in "order" throughout the US at that time. My year was the last graduating high school class eligible for the draft during the Vietnam War period, so they were drafting very few and I didn't come close to going, but we certainly partied with lots of returning hometown boys who happily joined in the sex, drugs and roll 'n' roll. They didn't have to go to Pattaya for that; it was happening in every town in America.

I look back on it and wonder how the older generation put up with us at all -- really an outrageous time.

I know, a bit off topic, but the times made for go-go dancing and various other forms of wildness.

[TigerWan]

Maybe not created, but more like financed the the construction and provided the consumer base

At the risk of offending all the Vietnam veterans, there is a school of thought that holds that the use of Thailand as an R&R center, while meant to help, served only to create problems and eroded order and discipline within the military. If one looks at past experience of R&R centers in WWII, and the Korean War, although the discipline problems were there, the situation was managed and there was no breakdown of general discipline. The proof is in how foreign militaries treat the process now. One will never see the chronic wild excesses of the Vietnam era today. Always, always maintain discipline in the ranks and places like Pattaya only serve to corrupt and undermine the authority of the command structure.

I'm going to get bashaed for being a canary now.

No not bashed but disagreed with ..

There was serious stuff going on in Thailand throughout the entire 60's. My dad was in the area for most of it, he wasn't a ncncom waiting for his next R&R and neither were other officers.

I grew up on military bases and then worked as an adult in military towns and I can tell you, partying troops are partying troops bars no matter what decade.

And look at present day Okinawa, Japanese are protesting to get that base withdrawn as we speak, so despicable is the behavior of some of the base residents.

Edited May 1, 2010 by TigerWan

[Thakkar]

Kind of like saying did African Americans create the crack industry? In the end, you'd still have to mostly credit the Colombians, not just the folks cutting holes in their wallets.

Yes.

Both Hongkong Taipei, and to some extent Singapore were major R&R destinations for American troops during the Korean and Vietnam wars. Prostitution was a big component of R&R in all these places. Yet unlike the Philippines and Thailand, these other places did not get so indelibly stamped with the kinds of labels that Thailand and the Philippines have been.

[Thakkar]

I'm afraid the USA story about starting Pattaya of is wrong - It was in fact discovered by The Black Watch who were over in 1858 on leave from a secret mission in Indochina, the opened a bar and a Hotel and started the bar fine system in 1860 around 10pm one Friday night. Some of the locals mistook the kilted men for Women and copied them which later developed into lady boys. So as usual with most things it was invented by The Scottish

Well this explains everything.

Thanks.

[IanForbes]

I'm afraid the USA story about starting Pattaya of is wrong - It was in fact discovered by The Black Watch who were over in 1858 on leave from a secret mission in Indochina, the opened a bar and a Hotel and started the bar fine system in 1860 around 10pm one Friday night. Some of the locals mistook the kilted men for Women and copied them which later developed into lady boys. So as usual with most things it was invented by The Scottish

Well this explains everything.

Thanks.

Well the laddies liked the ladies and the ladies liked the laddies, so naturally there was a bit of confusion.

[sabaijai]

Does anyone remember when Phuket was a "hippie hangout" with nud_e beaches? I recall the "Lonely PLanet" guide to Thailand talking about Phuket and the full nud_e beaches and drugs scene there around 1970 or so.

I was one of the hippies hanging out on Phuket in the 70s. Naihan Beach and the next one north, Kata Noi, saw a few people walking around nude but I wouldn't have called them, or anywhere else in the island, a nude beach. There was no road between Kata Noi and Naihan then, so backpackers hiked between them, a rough 11-hour hike as I recall. It wasn't unusual to see huge monitor lizards along the path. In ensuing years I never saw those critters again, on Phuket.

I first visited Pattaya around a year after the US military bases in Thailand had closed. Pattaya didn't seem to be suffering from the closure, and unlike parts of Bangkok, Udon, Ubon, and Khorat, you didn't see hotels with names like Miami, New York, Florida, Long Beach, etc. So I'm partial to the theory that the US military presence affected Pattaya rather little.

On the other hand it had a very palpable influence on the other aforementioned cities. For at least a few years after the base closures, any white male spotted in those cities would be assumed to be a GI or associated with the military. Thais would shout 'Hey GI' or 'Hey Joe.' I don't remember that happening in Pattaya.

[sokal]

I visited Pattaya several times from 1990 to 1992.

At that time, although there were a substantial amount of bars, hotels, not so many Farang type restaurants, it was nothing compared to the shithole it has become today.

Taking an educated guess, I think during the mid 1980s, Pattaya being a coastal town, attracted a lot of foreign property investors and business savvy types, who saw it`s potential as a major tourist and ex-pat destination.

Sometime within the last 20 years the Russians appeared and since have become well established in Pattaya.

Thus all contributing to the cesspit it has become today.

Thats only your opinion. It aint a cesspit.

Go Holland

[gotlost]

I visited Pattaya several times from 1990 to 1992.

At that time, although there were a substantial amount of bars, hotels, not so many Farang type restaurants, it was nothing compared to the shithole it has become today.

Taking an educated guess, I think during the mid 1980s, Pattaya being a coastal town, attracted a lot of foreign property investors and business savvy types, who saw it`s potential as a major tourist and ex-pat destination.

Sometime within the last 20 years the Russians appeared and since have become well established in Pattaya.

Thus all contributing to the cesspit it has become today.

Thats only your opinion. It aint a cesspit.

Go Holland

It didn't earn the nick name Sin City for being a nunnery. Its a cesspit.

[Berkshire]

I visited Pattaya several times from 1990 to 1992.

At that time, although there were a substantial amount of bars, hotels, not so many Farang type restaurants, it was nothing compared to the shithole it has become today.

Taking an educated guess, I think during the mid 1980s, Pattaya being a coastal town, attracted a lot of foreign property investors and business savvy types, who saw it`s potential as a major tourist and ex-pat destination.

Sometime within the last 20 years the Russians appeared and since have become well established in Pattaya.

Thus all contributing to the cesspit it has become today.

Thats only your opinion. It aint a cesspit.

Go Holland

It didn't earn the nick name Sin City for being a nunnery. Its a cesspit.

Well, perhaps "cesspit" may not be appropriate. How about "sh*thole?" Or "open sewer?" Maybe the "armpits of Thailand." Ah heck, maybe "cesspit" is good enough.

[Nignoy]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread pattaya beachwas an australian and british army r&r resort in 1963, the americans stationed in Utapao when their buses and trucks passed us on their way to Bkk and they saw us partying they stopped for a beer or two I left thailand in 1966 at that time there were still no US bungalows or bars in pattaya, as far as US bases in los at that time Ubon and Udon were rather well set up and had their own bars and custom built mia noi villages,the biggest by far was Korat with a huge mia noi estate of new houses directly outside the camp,and the on base bars were the best in thailand to this day have never seen an establishment to top the Broken Arrow with Sudsai and her staff, the photo is of our first camp on pattaya beach

[Thanyaburi Mac]

FYI, the 809th Engr Bn, then based at Phnom Sarakham and working on what's now Hwy 304 north to Korat, had the "809th House" in Pattaya, a close-by R&R haven away from the dust.

http://www.angelfire.com/tn/809th/809index.html

Mac

[mark45y]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread pattaya beachwas an australian and british army r&r resort in 1963, the americans stationed in Utapao when their buses and trucks passed us on their way to Bkk and they saw us partying they stopped for a beer or two I left thailand in 1966 at that time there were still no US bungalows or bars in pattaya, as far as US bases in los at that time Ubon and Udon were rather well set up and had their own bars and custom built mia noi villages,the biggest by far was Korat with a huge mia noi estate of new houses directly outside the camp,and the on base bars were the best in thailand to this day have never seen an establishment to top the Broken Arrow with Sudsai and her staff, the photo is of our first camp on pattaya beach

Where were the British troop stationed that had R&R in Pattaya?

[MB1]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread pattaya beachwas an australian and british army r&r resort in 1963, the americans stationed in Utapao when their buses and trucks passed us on their way to Bkk and they saw us partying they stopped for a beer or two I left thailand in 1966 at that time there were still no US bungalows or bars in pattaya, as far as US bases in los at that time Ubon and Udon were rather well set up and had their own bars and custom built mia noi villages,the biggest by far was Korat with a huge mia noi estate of new houses directly outside the camp,and the on base bars were the best in thailand to this day have never seen an establishment to top the Broken Arrow with Sudsai and her staff, the photo is of our first camp on pattaya beach

Where were the British troop stationed that had R&R in Pattaya?

British troops were involved in "Operation Crown" which involved Royal Engineers building an airfield at Loeng Nok Tha. The below is a piece from the Royal Engineers Museum.

You'll see from the piece that British troops were also in Bangkok attached to the British Embassy.

"Operation Crown - Thailand - 1963-68

As a signatory of South East Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO) Britain had an obligation to assist Allies in the Far East. In the early 1960's the Americans (also signatories of SEATO) were becoming increasingly embroiled in preventing the march of Communism in Laos and Vietnam and requested that Britain assist in their crusade.

In February 1963 it was proposed that Britain construct an airfield at Loeng Nok Tha, near Mukdahan in Thailand as part of the American's Special Logistic Aid to Thailand (SLAT). The proposal was accepted and given the code name Operation Crown.

The Engineer units involved in the project were:

11 Independent Field Squadron RE

59 Field Squadron RE

Detachment 54 Corps Field Park Squadron RE

Detachment 84 Survey Squadron RE

Detachment 302 Postal Unit RE

A field troop from the Royal Australian Engineers and detachment from the Royal New Zealand Engineers were also involved.

Crown airfield at Loeng Nok Tha, near Mukdahan, Thailand constructed by the Royal Engineers - 1964-65

The airfield with its 5,000ft long air strip, control-tower, airfield fencing and lighting was completed in time for an official opening ceremony on 17 June 1965, but work continued on improving the landing strips long after the ceremony.

After the airfield was completed a second project, to build a road north west from Loeng Nok Tha to a village (Ban Khok Klang), was started in December 1966 by 34 Field Squadron RE, who were relieved by 59 Field Squadron RE in August 1967, who in turn were relieved by 11 Field Squadron RE. The road was completed in April 1968 by a composite workforce that included:

54 (FARELF) Support Squadron RE

51 (Airfields) Squadron RE - one troop

59 Field Squadron RE - one troop

A Royal Engineers' Forces Post Office atttached to the British Embassy remained in Bangkok after the last of the Royal Engineers involved in Operation Crown departed Thailand in 1968."

Edited July 7, 2010 by MB1

[carlos921]

Maybe not created, but more like financed the the construction and provided the consumer base

At the risk of offending all the Vietnam veterans, there is a school of thought that holds that the use of Thailand as an R&R center, while meant to help, served only to create problems and eroded order and discipline within the military. If one looks at past experience of R&R centers in WWII, and the Korean War, although the discipline problems were there, the situation was managed and there was no breakdown of general discipline. The proof is in how foreign militaries treat the process now. One will never see the chronic wild excesses of the Vietnam era today. Always, always maintain discipline in the ranks and places like Pattaya only serve to corrupt and undermine the authority of the command structure.

I'm going to get bashaed for being a canary now.

Geriatrickid I don't want to bash you. But I must point out Pattaya was not an R&R center. I'll repeat that for those of you who didn't see it the first time. Pattaya was not an R&R center.

America did not finance or construct anything in Pattaya. America did not finance anything in Pattaya. It had R&R centers and hotels and clubs in Bangkok but not in Pattaya. America was completely out of Thailand and Vietnam by 1975 and there wasn't anything built in Pattaya in 1975 except a couple of hotels. Google some photos of Pattaya in 1975. Nothing but a dirt road and a few motorbikes.

Do you want to discuss how Sidney being an R&R center completely denigrated the morals of Australia and created a sex Disney world at Kings Cross?

Do you want to talk about Hawaii, the most popular R&R destination for American troops destroying the morals of Waikiki beach? No, of course not because it doesn't fit into your urban folk legend that America created sex tourism in Thailand. It ain't so. It ain't true. It is a folk tale contradicted in writing, photos and by talking to anyone who was here at the time.

Places like Pattaya may or may not undermine the command structure. Historically that might be an interesting discussion but we will never know because Pattaya was never part of the American experience in Vietnam.

The statement that America did not finance or construct anything in Pattaya is incorrect. In 1968, there was a small Army rec center with an NCO club. There was also a small BX/PX that contained a cafeteria. Pictures of both are available on the web. There was another comment by one stationed why anyone would want to go to Pattaya due to the facilities on Utapao. Answer - get away from the base, a better and larger beach (at that time) ability to water ski, two or three good restaurants, several small hotels and some nice bungalos within walking distance of town, a good massage parlor, and several bars.

[elkangorito]

Did America Create Pattaya?

I hope not.

[sokal]

I visited Pattaya several times from 1990 to 1992.

At that time, although there were a substantial amount of bars, hotels, not so many Farang type restaurants, it was nothing compared to the shithole it has become today.

Taking an educated guess, I think during the mid 1980s, Pattaya being a coastal town, attracted a lot of foreign property investors and business savvy types, who saw it`s potential as a major tourist and ex-pat destination.

Sometime within the last 20 years the Russians appeared and since have become well established in Pattaya.

Thus all contributing to the cesspit it has become today.

Thats only your opinion. It aint a cesspit.

Go Holland

It didn't earn the nick name Sin City for being a nunnery. Its a cesspit.

Well, perhaps "cesspit" may not be appropriate. How about "sh*thole?" Or "open sewer?" Maybe the "armpits of Thailand." Ah heck, maybe "cesspit" is good enough.

yeah yeah, its all what you make it. It doesn't look like a cesspit to me.

[morrobay]

Beautiful photos, Yes Pattaya definetly looks better at night.

On the topic: What about the go-go bar scene in Pattaya. The go-go bar was originally a transplant from the U.S. - late 60s/70s right ?

[Berkshire]

yeah yeah, its all what you make it. It doesn't look like a cesspit to me.

Sorry sokal, didn't mean to jump on the bandwagon. You're probably right....it's all what you make of it.

[harrry]

I'm afraid the USA story about starting Pattaya of is wrong - It was in fact discovered by The Black Watch who were over in 1858 on leave from a secret mission in Indochina, the opened a bar and a Hotel and started the bar fine system in 1860 around 10pm one Friday night. Some of the locals mistook the kilted men for Women and copied them which later developed into lady boys. So as usual with most things it was invented by The Scottish

Well this explains everything.

Thanks.

This cannot be right...no member of the Black Wath would ;eave a bar at 10pm

[grumpyoldman]

british and australian troops had an R&R camp on pattaya beach in 1963!! no bars no hotels only a dirt road the first bar and brothel opened in april 1964, it wasnt until 1966 that us troops passing through plucked up the courage to stop, this was yonks before the vietnam debacle kicked off have attached a couple of piccies of pattaya beach 63 and 64

Those pics are cool. We should have a thread which is "Pictures of Thailand before 1975" and let those who have them, show them..

[mark45y]

The following were approved R&R destinations for US troops stationed in Vietnam.

* Australia (Sydney) 10 months in country

* Bangkok 03 months in country

* Tokyo 06 1/2 months in country

* Hong Kong 03 months in country

* Manila 03 months in country

* Hawaii 06 months in country

* Singapore 03 months in country

* Taipei 03 months in country

* Penang - From 1 July 1969 onwards.

* Kuala Lampur 06 months in country - Closed 1 July 1969

[carlos921]

So what does that have to do with American troops, mainly those stationed in Thailand, visting Pattaya in the 60's???? Check out the link http://www.83rdrrsou.org/. There is info on the link that shows the Army had troops visiting Pattaya as early as '63 and maybe even before. There were many AF troops at Utapao who spent their weekends in Pattaya in 68 and even some who lived there sharing housing. It was very easy to take a taxi from Utapao to Pattaya and then back in the early AM. Your original point was that there were no American troops in Pattaya in the 60's because there was no reason for them to be there. That was wrong. You also stated there was no American investment in Pattaya then. That was also wrong.

[carlos921]

So what does that have to do with American troops, mainly those stationed in Thailand, visting Pattaya in the 60's???? Check out the link http://www.83rdrrsou.org/. There is info on the link that shows the Army had troops visiting Pattaya as early as '63 and maybe even before. There were many AF troops at Utapao who spent their weekends in Pattaya in 68 and even some who lived there sharing housing. It was very easy to take a taxi from Utapao to Pattaya and then back in the early AM. Your original point was that there were no American troops in Pattaya in the 60's because there was no reason for them to be there. That was wrong. You also stated there was no American investment in Pattaya then. That was also wrong.

To add to the above post, the following is taken from the 83rd RRSOU website: The attached photos of the old Blue Pattaya Bar & Restaurant are intended for those of you who went there in the early 60s and are still able to recall the place! Most of you on my ASA mailing list were there after those early times, so these shots will have no meaning for you. As information, though, during that time the 5th RRU brass and JUSMAGTHAI, I suppose, provided this "retreat," complete with power boats and skiing equipment, for the "troops." The 5th also provided a VW bus and Thai driver to take us from Bangkok to Pattaya, a distance of..........what? I have no idea today about the distance, but I recall it being over roads that would be considered primitive by today's standards. Could it have been 50 or 100 miles? Anyway, the one "watering hole" that I recall at the place--Pattaya Beach--during those times was Blue Pattaya. It is my understanding that Pattaya is now a very large city, catering to the vacationing crowd, with a huge superhighway from Bangkok to the place.

[carlos921]

<BR>The following were approved R&R destinations for US troops stationed in Vietnam.     <BR><BR>*    Australia (Sydney) 10 months in country<BR>    * Bangkok 03 months in country<BR>    * Tokyo 06 1/2 months in country<BR>    * Hong Kong 03 months in country<BR>    * Manila 03 months in country<BR>    * Hawaii 06 months in country<BR>    * Singapore 03 months in country<BR>    * Taipei 03 months in country<BR>    * Penang - From 1 July 1969 onwards.<BR>    * Kuala Lampur 06 months in country - Closed 1 July 1969<BR>

<BR><BR>Mark45, the below comments from me are directed at your comments re Pattaya in the 60's and the absence of American troops, or at least your false belief on what really happened.<BR>

[mark45y]

You’re right there were American troops in Pattaya and there was investment by Americans but it was not government sponsored R&R by USARV (United States Army Republic Vietnam).

The Army in Vietnam did not send troops on R&R to Pattaya because it was not an approved R&R site.

As far as I know US troops stationed in Thailand did not get R&R, as in the Army or Air force did not pay transportation to R&R sites. But I am not sure about this and I would like someone stationed here to inform me about the R&R status of troops stationed in Thailand.

In Vietnam troops had a choice of R&R sites both in Vietnam and approved out of country sites depending on the year/years you were there and Pattaya was never on the list. The Army gave you a week off and a plane ticket to your destination. I don’t think this was the case for troops stationed in Thailand. I think troops stationed in Thailand took a couple of days and went to the beach but I don’t think that was considered R&R except in a colloquial sense.

I think the troops in Pattaya were more like on shore leave than R&R which was a different thing.

American troops went on R&R in Bangkok. Sure they could have gone to Pattaya or Chiang Mai but those were not R&R sites.

[carlos921]

Mark, you stated earlier that America did not finance anything in Pattaya. You said nothing about it having to come from Vietnam funds or whatever. A BX and an Amry rec camp were American funded. AF troops in Thailand did get R&R. I didn't take on my first tour, but I did get a 5 day R&R on my second tour - to NKP. Bottom line - there was American investment in Pattaya and there were American troops there as early as '63 or maybe even before. And Pattay was a regular weekend place for Utapao troops regardless of your earlier comment. You comment about no troops from Vietnam there is probably correct but has nothing to do with your earlier assertions that there were no American troops in Pattaya. And you're correct about troops in Vietnam going to Bangkok on R&R. In March of 69, I spent a night at the Opera Hotel in Bangkok. The bellboy who took my bag to the room asked if I wanted a girl. I said how much. His response was $25.00. When I said "what the hel_l" in Thai, the price immediately changec to $10. So yes the troops from Vietnam certainly did their thing to support the Thai economy.

[mark45y]

Mark, you stated earlier that America did not finance anything in Pattaya. You said nothing about it having to come from Vietnam funds or whatever. A BX and an Amry rec camp were American funded. AF troops in Thailand did get R&R. I didn't take on my first tour, but I did get a 5 day R&R on my second tour - to NKP. Bottom line - there was American investment in Pattaya and there were American troops there as early as '63 or maybe even before. And Pattay was a regular weekend place for Utapao troops regardless of your earlier comment. You comment about no troops from Vietnam there is probably correct but has nothing to do with your earlier assertions that there were no American troops in Pattaya. And you're correct about troops in Vietnam going to Bangkok on R&R. In March of 69, I spent a night at the Opera Hotel in Bangkok. The bellboy who took my bag to the room asked if I wanted a girl. I said how much. His response was $25.00. When I said "what the hel_l" in Thai, the price immediately changec to $10. So yes the troops from Vietnam certainly did their thing to support the Thai economy.

You are right, in an earlier post I acknowledged that. My last point was made in response to numerous web sites that state that American troops from Vietnam on R&R built Pattaya into a sin city resort. And that is not correct. The American investment was bungalows and a small PX for visiting troops from Utapao, officers and civilian workers from Bangkok.

You said that you got a 5 day R&R to NKP, what other in Thailand sites were approved for US Air Force troops?

[carlos921]

Mark, my comment on R&R was confusing, even to me. My second tour in Thailand was to NKP, my R&R was to Chang Mai. A lot of other troops went there as well. I'm not sure about other R&R locations other than Bangkok. There were flights (cheap) back to the states during the Christmas holidays. Two guys I worked with got a flight to BK on the C-130 that made the daily route around Thailand and then on to Dallas. That's about all I remember on that other than who went and when. From what I've seen on the web, there were also a bunch of enlisted personnel from BKK that were provided quarters by the Army on trips there. I'm not sure when the BX was built but it was before July 68 when I made my first of many trips to Pattaya.