When Thai Red-Shirts Turn Colourless

[animatic]

Basically the government has 3 options

- Negociated solution. That means an election within 3-6 months at most.

- Disperse the protests by force.

- Sit it out.

I just wish they'd choose one and be over with.

Maybe they chose 3 but havent told anyone

It wouldn't make sense to actually ANNOUNCE picking 3 anyway,

because that would push the reds to greater violence to force the gov. hand...

[ETatBKK]

BPbreakingnews: Reds to petition European Union UDD to ask EU to supervise demonstration

Hiding behind farangs are we lads - Such courage from the leaders - Maybe you can ask the EU to bring some MacD's when they arrive.

As farangs are constantly told - Thai politics is for Thai ONLY keep out of it.

WOW . . . UN peacekeepers will be here, EU supervisers will be here, and very soon 'world police' will be here too ! what an event !

well, would red ( or black ) stop violence, stop blockage ? would Abhisit desolves house in 30 days, would police and army do their duties ?

perhaps my guess is NO !

[pornsasi]

The red side did NOT START the shooting and you know it

Keep saying often and you can convince yourself...

that and maybe someone will believe you, if and or when you side wins, and writes the books.

Between now and then, the Ronins / black shirts working WITH the Reds started the shooting,

and that amounts to the same thing.

Wrong answer

a) The black shirts are not controlled by the red shirts

On April 10th some ex soldiers on the roof started shooting at both the reds

and the soldiers , the black shot back at those snippers according to what they said , and then

it was soldiers shooting at reds, due to confusion .

c) yesterday the police or army shot a soldier , am sure you will accuse the red again .

[kraxlhuber]

By not wearing red, the have a better chance of escaping and mingling with non-protesters. This will limit the Governments options for a crackdown...

1. A crackdown can only be done, after telling all non-protesters to leave the area and giving them time to do so.

2. A crackdown, will most likely have to be conducted at night, when the malls are closed, so protesters can't run into the malls and mix with regular citizens.

3. The Government may we wise now, to order a curfew, then cracking down on the protesters, a few hours after the curfew starts. That way, nobody, besides the protesters, have any business being there and they will get the right people, regardless of what color shirt, pants or bra they happen to wear, at the time

Then again, this will cause a problem outside of Bangkok, because it gives protesters a chance to gather undetected, until it is too late. From a Red perspective, definitely a clever move.

Distorting facts is really somebodys pastime.

The security forces have certainly identified most the protesters/cum terrorists in the street,by filming/taking pix's of the come and go of poeples and the security guards cum henchmans for them.

Having identified its not far from the proverbal knock on the door at night and the consequences arising from that.

The immigrantin from Issan to Bangkok is not legal anyway, as nobody is registered there as requested by the law.

Clever move my foot,

I can spot a terrorist/cum protester from a mile.Just by observing that they are near the protestsite, inside the barricades.

Fence all in and starve them,shut down all fastfood joints as they aid and abet the ongoing Saga, and make money on the sly from the misery..

Now, since when is Ammnesty International the mouthpiece of the USA State Department, and tells that Thailand cannot use weapons made in USA against protesters/or mingled terrorist amongs them.

Did anybody tell israel not to use US made ammonition/ordance etc agains the Palestine poeple,NO,I did not hear that yet.

Double/ triple standard that is.

Gather undetected until it is too late,for what?Criminal intend is that all, the REds lost their idendity, now no more "Red" movement, they lost their case.Now they are gone underground and have to be fought with all the consequences.

There is a police force in Thailand,if they cannot do their job ,than create leauw- leauw a national guard.

They will do what been told regardless.

Soon it will become a Stigma to stay/live in Thailand, already have mails such as .. move your butt from friends at home,before its too late.

[ETatBKK]

As for 'democracy'. I asked openly, several hours ago, whether anyone could give an example of Reds using any democratic measures. Have the Reds used democratic methods in choosing their leaders? .....in setting policy? ......in anything they do collectively. Have they used any democratic policy to decide what type of food to eat, what types of weapons to use, whether to use fuel covered tires to barricade themselves downtown? Am still waiting for a non-flame answer.

the word DEMOCRACY is being stolen ! for fueling these struggles between politics, between 'old power old money' and 'new power new money' :-(

hope UDD really understand the words 'democracy' and 'dictatorship', and won't mixed up in reversed way !

[whybother]

The red side did NOT START the shooting and you know it

Keep saying often and you can convince yourself...

that and maybe someone will believe you, if and or when you side wins, and writes the books.

Between now and then, the Ronins / black shirts working WITH the Reds started the shooting,

and that amounts to the same thing.

Wrong answer

a) The black shirts are not controlled by the red shirts

On April 10th some ex soldiers on the roof started shooting at both the reds

and the soldiers , the black shot back at those snippers according to what they said , and then

it was soldiers shooting at reds, due to confusion .

c) yesterday the police or army shot a soldier , am sure you will accuse the red again .

Black shirts have been presented on stage with red shirt leaders. That makes them controlled by and part of the red shirts.

[brahmburgers]

a) The black shirts are not controlled by the red shirts

On April 10th some ex soldiers on the roof started shooting at both the reds

and the soldiers , the black shot back at those snippers according to what they said , and then it was soldiers shooting at reds, due to confusion.

c) yesterday the police or army shot a soldier , am sure you will accuse the red again .

How do you know the black shirts are not controlled by the Reds? Whether or not they're controlled by the Reds, they certainly mingle closely with and are harbored by the Reds. Compelling evidence at least several photos showing the black shirts with their weapons and ammo fraternizing with the Reds behind the Red lines.

As for "....ex soldiers on the roof started shooting at both the reds

and the soldiers , the black shot back at those snippers according to what they said , and then it was soldiers shooting at reds, due to confusion." I think you're the one confused. I haven't heard that scenario from any news source, nor even in the rumor mill. Are you going to start a new rumor in order to obfuscate the truth?

The fact that gov't forces are saying that it might have been a 'friendly fire' incident (and are investigating it) is proof that the gov't is not trying to pin everything on the Reds. In contrast, the Reds consistently deny anything that might make them look bad, regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The Red leaders sound like they're stuck in arrested development level of a 4 year old naughty boy who never had any discipline - never had anyone tell them it's not right to tell lies. Never had anyone teach them to take responsibility for things they do.

[clockworkorange]

The RED may by coward and stupid like a cow. However, they only follow and learn from the YELLOW, who went colorless first.

Well that's true.

The Pravda article at the top of this thread in any case is rather lame, as it focuses on shirt colour as if it is the only glue that holds a group together. Human communications have advanced to a stage where groups can remain in contact and further a cause while wearing ordinary clothes.

[jonnyscot]

I agree with part of what you say Jon - that the PT & Dems have to work together.

I don't agree with the 'groundswell' of support for the reds/PT though. How do you measure that ?

I didn't say there was a groundswell of support. I measure the lack of support, by the fact that the numbers boasted about simply didn't materialize. Of course people will say they were prevented from going to Bkk, fair enough, but why didn't we see large numbers in other provinces like Khon Kaen etc. demostrating, if they were prevented from going to Bkk. As opposed to a few hundreds or thousands turining up every now and then.

BTW love this bit from the daily update -

BPbreakingnews: Reds to petition European Union UDD to ask EU to supervise demonstration

Hiding behind farangs are we lads - Such courage from the leaders - Maybe you can ask the EU to bring some MacD's when they arrive.

As farangs are constantly told - Thai politics is for Thai ONLY keep out of it.

Observers observe. They are not shields or interlopers. There are plenty of observers all across Bangkok

with cameras and video and more than enough means to observe what's happening. Place is crawling with reporters.

This line didn't work with the UN, Weng got some boilerplate comments, but not one move towards stepping in.

This will not get a better response either. EU will state some group speak platitudes and wait for the commerce to recommence.

The EU clearly will see this as a non-peaceful group taking a city center hostage,

by violent means and intimidation... they will not likely want to take THAT side of things,

and thus remain neutral.

And if you have ever seen a Davos Meeting showing the external protests getting closed down,

you would not be surprised at how this protest can be handled in EU terms.

When the red side started shooting all bets were off.

The red side did NOT START the shooting and you know it

the previous post is maybe better re-phrased,,, When the Reds started the violence all bets were off

[frenchfarangjomtien]

Instead of buying new shirts they should buy brains...

Waiting for te US army to come and show them how to behave !

[beejoir]

Have a quick read of this from the UDDThailand forum....

http://www.facebook.com/UDDThailand?v=wall...id=434726828851

One woman trying to be humanitarian, not red not yellow, and was shot down by foul mouthed idiots.

[whybother]

Have a quick read of this from the UDDThailand forum....

http://www.facebook.com/UDDThailand?v=wall...id=434726828851

One woman trying to be humanitarian, not red not yellow, and was shot down by foul mouthed idiots.

I couldn't see anything about a woman being shot.

Is there any other news source?

[quiksilva]

To poster above he did not mean 'shot' in the literal sense...

Have a quick read of this from the UDDThailand forum....

http://www.facebook.com/UDDThailand?v=wall...id=434726828851

One woman trying to be humanitarian, not red not yellow, and was shot down by foul mouthed idiots.

Indeed a lot of foul mouth idiots there.. and I never thought I'd say this but credit where its due the poster called UDDThailand seemed to be one of the very few rational posters!

UDDThailand

Cool down everyone. Soho, if you are sincere about your offer please approach the UDD leadership about it in person. I can appreciate your concern for the children at the protest- but please consider why it is they are in danger: because Thailand currently has a government that is happier killing its own citizens than it is with the prospect of elections.

Our aim is to bring about elections, get the military out of politics, and to have a government that represents the interests of all Thais, not just the powerful minority. And if we win, everyone wins- because if you don't like the Puea Thai party, you can just vote them out!

... what's going on here? I think I am growing increasingly sympathetic to the reds, not entirely mind you as I can see how and why they want certain changes (although I see no mention of the charter here) but this is not the way to do it.

Regardless of how important a cause is perceived to be, or is, children should never be put in harms way...but the again they should not be put on motorbikes without helmets either...

Edited April 29, 2010 by quiksilva

[Insight]

Have a quick read of this from the UDDThailand forum....

http://www.facebook.com/UDDThailand?v=wall...id=434726828851

One woman trying to be humanitarian, not red not yellow, and was shot down by foul mouthed idiots.

Can I label them "pathetic" without accusations of being "yellow" flying around? Highly unlikely.

/edit quiksilva - they need a more moderate person to keep the group alive. If it was left to some of the extremist clowns in there I doubt the group would last long.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Insight

[OzMick]

Rather than asking why Red Shirts turn colorless, why does the writer not ask why all Red media is shut down, why freedom of informaiton is now the same as Burma, why the government/Yellow side are still rampant in their use of propaganda ?

Want to research some on this issue then

http://facthai.wordpress.com/

.

If the subject is distasteful to you, why don't you just go to another thread?

[OzMick]

You're assessing the situation from a reasoned perspective. That's not Thai style. Thais look at the situation from different perspective, a mix of superstition and subjectivity, indecision, worry, non-researched, non-resolve. Get in to the Thai mind-set, and you'll get a better idea of why the problems have grown so big and polarizing.

...

And this is the country which wants to build four nuclear power plants - can't wait.

Farang USA, you don't like the Thai way? - there is an easy solution: GO HOME!

YES! We ask farang europe come now, save our bum from savage army.

[ETatBKK]

You're assessing the situation from a reasoned perspective. That's not Thai style. Thais look at the situation from different perspective, a mix of superstition and subjectivity, indecision, worry, non-researched, non-resolve. Get in to the Thai mind-set, and you'll get a better idea of why the problems have grown so big and polarizing.

...

And this is the country which wants to build four nuclear power plants - can't wait.

Farang USA, you don't like the Thai way? - there is an easy solution: GO HOME!

ha ha ha . . . IF international invention is need, don't forget China and their PLA soldiers, they are very efficient :-)

[jonclark]

As i've watched the day progress I ge the feeling that the reds have become rudderless and without direction. Their rolling convoys after yesterdays incident probably won't be allowed to happen again. They government have blocked them in (if news reports are correct) and now they are asking farangs from the EU to condem the government.

I think the government is going to wait this one out. It may take another month or so, but containment is probably the best option.

[OzMick]

Wrong answer

a) The black shirts are not controlled by the red shirts

On April 10th some ex soldiers on the roof started shooting at both the reds

and the soldiers , the black shot back at those snippers according to what they said , and then

it was soldiers shooting at reds, due to confusion .

c) yesterday the police or army shot a soldier , am sure you will accuse the red again .

a/ the black shirts are controlled by seh dang, who is Thaksin's man, who is the reds paymaster. Tenuous connection, you might say - not me.

B/ some ex-soldiers stated shooting at both sides - why? Perhaps to ensure more red casualties than army, needed for a PR victory. The blacks attacked the snipers, what they said. What would you expect them to say? We ambushed the troops in riot control mode? Has it occurred that the snipers were actually blacks?

c/ accidents happen in the heat of battle

[Zpete]

Reds are fighting for the thing that so many stupid farangs who have written on this website take for granted in their home countries: democracy. For those who think it is purely about Thaksin's interests, you are so wrong (although, of course, he is the leader of the red shirts).

The real coward in all this is the Thai government, which was not elected by The People and is, therefore, not prepared to hold an election because they know they have absolutely no chance of winning. And why do they have absolutely no chance of winning? Because they know The People would not vote for them. And that, my friends, is why the red shirts are fighting: let The People decide who should run the country.

So long as Thaksin was given his fair come uppance, REDs would be my preference.

Absolving Thaksin would not be right.

[Dap]

THIS writer is great!! Very funny with a sharply talented wit. "Je doff mon chapeau, mon ami"

[321niti123]

Reds are fighting for the thing that so many stupid farangs who have written on this website take for granted in their home countries: democracy. For those who think it is purely about Thaksin's interests, you are so wrong (although, of course, he is the leader of the red shirts).

The real coward in all this is the Thai government, which was not elected by The People and is, therefore, not prepared to hold an election because they know they have absolutely no chance of winning. And why do they have absolutely no chance of winning? Because they know The People would not vote for them. And that, my friends, is why the red shirts are fighting: let The People decide who should run the country.

bravo bravo !

I have to say it is a government voted on by the people its just a shift in allies, the PTP lost all coalition, the people who are voted into the parliament are still there they just changed sides, if you dont want that to happen the next time then you shouldn't vote for one of the minor parties who are willing change sides just for a taste of power.

One more thing, i don really dont understand the people that are calling the reds cowards, how can they be cowards when they go everyday to a site where 25 have died and more will have to face that prospect? The reds are brave people but if they are brave and noble or brave and stupid we have to wait to find out.

[benthai98]

BBC World News wonderful interview on Hardtalk yesterday with the P.M. very hard hitting interview about what and who created this mess.

You must have watched a different interview to the one I saw.

The one I saw was conducted by an ill informed journalist who had already made her mind up regarding the state of Thailand and the PM's responsibility for it.

When the PM started to provide a decent answer to one of her 'observations' she cut him off saying his comment was long winded (can't remember her exact term) and in depth. She showed no intention to gather or assess information but rather attempted to point the finger.

This and the fact that her answer to the country's problems was that he resign and 'give the people what they want' just astounded me.

[brahmburgers]

Interesting the Red leaders go running to the EU as referees - to help shield them from the messy & painful dispersement which is almost inevitable. Why the EU and not the local coalition; ASEAN? Could it be that the EU is more pro-active and ASEAN is only known for being lazy and avoiding tough issues? But wait a moment, many Red supporters on T.Visa keep reminding us non-Thais that we don't count for anything here, and if it's something happening in Thailand, it's no business at all of farang. How can it be both ways? On the one hand, Red supporters tell farang to shut up and stay out of Thai peoples' affairs, yet on the other hand, Red leaders go pleading to EU to protect them.

As for littering, and another Thai/farang issue. For years it's known that a farang can get busted in Bangkok for merely tossing a cig butt on the sidewalk. There are more than a few stories of farang being busted and forced to pay Bt.2,000 immediately, ....farang who don't even smoke cigs! An obvious set up and quick & easy way for crooked cops (or cop look-alikes) to get money.

Now compare the mass of one cig butt to the cumulative mass of several Km of auto tires piled 3 meters high. I'd guess the ratio is about 1:6,000,000,000,000. Anyone have a scientific calculation? But seriously folks, when the protesters finally split the scene, will there be any citations/fines for littering? And what about the blood thrown around gov't buildings - surely that would constitute littering for anyone else.

Here's a proposal: Each protester who is arrested, will be compelled to completely clean up the scene until it looks as it did before the Reds came to town. How to compel people who want to get out of town as fast as possible? Won't be easy, because they've proven to be the type of people who will:

A. deny it's them

B. deny they're a Red shirt member (they've been dropping the Red shirts lately)

C. Find a slew of reasons why they need to leave town

D. Find a slew of reasons why gov't people should clean up the mess.

Also, the cost. Figure the entire cost of clean up, and divvy it up among the arrested protesters who are forced to clean it up. If the cost is 5 million baht, and there are 1,000 protesters on hand, then each protester is liable for 5,000 baht (the payments are ON TOP OF the time in detention). No pay, go to jail for an added 6 months. Oh, and to ensure the arrested protesters don't run off, which they're so quick and adept at doing, string 'em up with plastic handcuffs while they're out of detention and working to clean up Thailand's capital city. After they've done working for the day, bring them back and lock 'em up. If they don't do the work, months of detention are added to their sentence.

[milograves]

More ominously, the reds wouldn't want to be identified with black either, because that would be getting themselves dangerously close to the "black shirts" who were seen firing away during the April 10 face-off, killing 25 and injuring over 800.

In a way, the reds may have painted themselves into a black corner. They can't go near yellow. The pink people can't stand the reds, and just as the reds were thinking about fading into a non-colour mode, the multi-colours emerged to become a force to reckon with.

Is this guy actually implying that the military had nothing to do with the 25 deaths? and does he actually believe that the yellows, pinks and multi's are not one in the same? ridiculous! the pinks and multi's are in fact the same people that were yellow before and now do not want to associate themselves with the people who got what they wanted thru the exact same means ad the reds are now pursuing less then 2 years ago.

[kissdani]

The RED may by coward and stupid like a cow. However, they only follow and learn from the YELLOW, who went colorless first.

Actually the yellows still exist and are not out presently marching.

Some yellow seemed to have joined the multi-colors, but that isn't the same thing.

Everyone seems to see these color lines as in or out,

while in many cases, people can be in 2-3 groups or just visiting for one issue but not for others.

Just because some yellows are in the multi-color, or no color, doesn't automatically make Multi-color = Yellow.

Nor does it make Ex-Communist Reds, ardent Thaksinista, red yes, but wanting a different thing,

and riding the coat tails of a different movement to re-energize their own.

Though if ther global team wins they would split and create another schism of philosophical chaos to deal with.

The more important issue is ;

'willingness to use extreme group violence to gain whatever end they choose.'

That is a In or Out proposition.

The so called yellow are a peoples movement too, same as the reds. The yellows have been a alliance of many different groups, associations, organizations. In its very early days even Dr. Weng was part of the movement. Besides the hardcore leader group with a more strict ideological program, the PAD had attracted peoples from all walks of life. Normal. ordinary daily people who felt something must be done against the corruption in politics.

And yes, that alliance turned into a mob. And we have seen a lot of objectionable actions. But the majority of them are not extremist.

The multicolors are not much different from the yellows, they share the same basis. So the multicolor rallies attract the same people who previously attended the PAD rallies. It isn't a secret and nothing condemnable.

These pro government protesters are genuine citizen using their right to rally to express their opinion. Not everybody is equally interest in politics or willing to attend a rally and become an activist. Mostly the very motivated Democrat supporter will come forward and show up, that are also yellows.

Same as in the reds there are many moderate people who want exercise democracy. Groups build up up with a broad spectrum of individuals who may have each own very different motivations to attend the rally and don't follow a narrow ideology or are not that ideologically entrenched as it maybe look like (a part lot of partisan simpletons at this board don't get).

And of course there are politicians on both sides who hijacked these movements and try to using them as pawn.