For Some, Thailand's Red-shirt Protests Amplify Calls For Justice

[somo]

I agree: absolutely rubbish article.

Thailand is modernising, which includes and benefits everyone. The government and those that are making lots of money from the economic success need to make sure everyone benefits. I think this is happening. The government helps the poor and the farmers in alot of ways. Maybe they can do more. However the route to doing more is through democratic means via the government, election process, debating and making laws in parliament, etc. You don't make these changes via violence, breaking the law and terrorism. Change is happening quickly in Thailand through the normal procedures; it does not need accelerating via demonstrations, breaking the law, violence, miss information via mass media, and turning Thais against Thais.

We all know this red shirt demonstration is being paid for by Taksin and has the sole purpose of getting Taksin back in the country and in power. He should have though about the consequences of his actions when he was in power. No one stays in power for ever. Alot of damage has been done to the country. I get fed up with the red shirt BS and propaganda. People have forgotten what morals are or the difference between right and wrong.

<deleted>!

It isn't happening nearly fast enough and that is precisely why we are seeing such deep divisions in Thai society. Thailand has a long long way to go to catch up when it comes to democracy and implementing it.

In all democracies especially fledgling ones we have seen that civil disobedience and yes even rioting has been neccessary and the catalyst for change. The haves will not share with the have nots unless they are forced to. Just telling them to go home and not to worry because Thailands perfect democratic institutions have been listening and will put everything right is ridiculous.

[whybother]

I agree: absolutely rubbish article.

Thailand is modernising, which includes and benefits everyone. The government and those that are making lots of money from the economic success need to make sure everyone benefits. I think this is happening. The government helps the poor and the farmers in alot of ways. Maybe they can do more. However the route to doing more is through democratic means via the government, election process, debating and making laws in parliament, etc. You don't make these changes via violence, breaking the law and terrorism. Change is happening quickly in Thailand through the normal procedures; it does not need accelerating via demonstrations, breaking the law, violence, miss information via mass media, and turning Thais against Thais.

We all know this red shirt demonstration is being paid for by Taksin and has the sole purpose of getting Taksin back in the country and in power. He should have though about the consequences of his actions when he was in power. No one stays in power for ever. Alot of damage has been done to the country. I get fed up with the red shirt BS and propaganda. People have forgotten what morals are or the difference between right and wrong.

<deleted>!

It isn't happening nearly fast enough and that is precisely why we are seeing such deep divisions in Thai society. Thailand has a long long way to go to catch up when it comes to democracy and implementing it.

In all democracies especially fledgling ones we have seen that civil disobedience and yes even rioting has been neccessary and the catalyst for change. The haves will not share with the have nots unless they are forced to. Just telling them to go home and not to worry because Thailands perfect democratic institutions have been listening and will put everything right is ridiculous.

Civil disobedience and riots and death and destruction. For nearly 2 months now.

They have made their point. The government is doing something. They can go home now.

Or do you want them to stay their for a couple of years while the plans that the government have put into place show long term results.

[animatic]

...status quos resist change by definition.

The status quo is not a group of people.

Try 'Powers that be'.

status quo –noun

the existing state or condition.

status quo

1833, from L. status quo "the state in which," hence "existing state of affairs."

Also status quo ante "the state in which before, state of affairs previous" (1877).

[animatic]

I agree: absolutely rubbish article.

Thailand is modernising, which includes and benefits everyone. The government and those that are making lots of money from the economic success need to make sure everyone benefits. I think this is happening. The government helps the poor and the farmers in alot of ways. Maybe they can do more. However the route to doing more is through democratic means via the government, election process, debating and making laws in parliament, etc. You don't make these changes via violence, breaking the law and terrorism. Change is happening quickly in Thailand through the normal procedures; it does not need accelerating via demonstrations, breaking the law, violence, miss information via mass media, and turning Thais against Thais.

We all know this red shirt demonstration is being paid for by Taksin and has the sole purpose of getting Taksin back in the country and in power. He should have though about the consequences of his actions when he was in power. No one stays in power for ever. Alot of damage has been done to the country. I get fed up with the red shirt BS and propaganda. People have forgotten what morals are or the difference between right and wrong.

We are seeing this manufactured, and brought out on cue, political theater,

because THAKSIN LOST HIS MONEY.

The inequities that exist in society, ALL societies regardless of location or time period,

are often used by power hungry or vengeful demagogues, using hardcore ideologues as fronts and shills,

when power is too far from their grasp by traditional legal means.

This fits Thaksin to a T...

[somo]

Civil disobedience and riots and death and destruction. For nearly 2 months now.

They have made their point. The government is doing something. They can go home now.

Or do you want them to stay their for a couple of years while the plans that the government have put into place show long term results.

Most of the killing has come from the goverment side. 19 or 20 dead civilians.

They have indeed made their point but the goverment has only come up with promises the reds think will be broken as soon as they do go home.

I am not on one side or the other and as others have mentioned the leaders of both sides have a lot to answer for.

I do try to understand why the reds have the support of so many people from the poorer sections of society. Just patting them on the head and saying "you can go home now, we understand what you want" is not enough.

I do know that if my goverment was thrown out by the army and then elected goverments thrown out by newly appointed judges then I would probably be on the streets protesting.

[whybother]

Civil disobedience and riots and death and destruction. For nearly 2 months now.

They have made their point. The government is doing something. They can go home now.

Or do you want them to stay their for a couple of years while the plans that the government have put into place show long term results.

Most of the killing has come from the goverment side. 19 or 20 dead civilians.

They have indeed made their point but the goverment has only come up with promises the reds think will be broken as soon as they do go home.

I am not on one side or the other and as others have mentioned the leaders of both sides have a lot to answer for.

I do try to understand why the reds have the support of so many people from the poorer sections of society. Just patting them on the head and saying "you can go home now, we understand what you want" is not enough.

I do know that if my goverment was thrown out by the army and then elected goverments thrown out by newly appointed judges then I would probably be on the streets protesting.

It's questionable how some of the civilians died. The fact that several soldiers also died and several hundred were injured shows how violent the protesters were.

The government has also put some plans into action. The red leaders have also made some promises, which they usually go back on.

The reds have the support of many of the rich in the Isaan villages, and they encourage many of the poor, that they have been ripping off for decades to support Thaksin.

No government was thrown out by the army. Thaksin had dissolved parliament in early 2006 (one year after he was elected the second time) so that he could get one of his corrupt deals accepted (the sale of Shin Corp to Temasek, Singapore). The 2006 election, which had no result, was invalidated because of irregularities with the EC (ie privacy when voting). At the time of the coup, Thaksin was a care-taker PM, who had not organised new election in the 6 month time frame required by the constitution.

I don't believe that the judges were not newly appointed. Judges have to be signed up by the King, don't they. I know they have to study the law for many years before they can be appointed.

The points you raise ARE the reason why there are people protesting. But most of those points are incorrect, but are used as by the red leaders to convince the poor, who are used to listening and doing what they are told.

Edited May 11, 2010 by whybother

[way2muchcoffee]

I agree: absolutely rubbish article.

Thailand is modernising, which includes and benefits everyone. The government and those that are making lots of money from the economic success need to make sure everyone benefits. I think this is happening. The government helps the poor and the farmers in alot of ways. Maybe they can do more. However the route to doing more is through democratic means via the government, election process, debating and making laws in parliament, etc. You don't make these changes via violence, breaking the law and terrorism. Change is happening quickly in Thailand through the normal procedures; it does not need accelerating via demonstrations, breaking the law, violence, miss information via mass media, and turning Thais against Thais.

We all know this red shirt demonstration is being paid for by Taksin and has the sole purpose of getting Taksin back in the country and in power. He should have though about the consequences of his actions when he was in power. No one stays in power for ever. Alot of damage has been done to the country. I get fed up with the red shirt BS and propaganda. People have forgotten what morals are or the difference between right and wrong.

<deleted>!

It isn't happening nearly fast enough and that is precisely why we are seeing such deep divisions in Thai society. Thailand has a long long way to go to catch up when it comes to democracy and implementing it.

In all democracies especially fledgling ones we have seen that civil disobedience and yes even rioting has been neccessary and the catalyst for change. The haves will not share with the have nots unless they are forced to. Just telling them to go home and not to worry because Thailands perfect democratic institutions have been listening and will put everything right is ridiculous.

You do realize there was a world financial crisis last year, and it is ongoing. The sectors that employ the poor were hardest hit. This government worked hard to insulate Thailand from the crisis. The current Finance Minister won international awards for his performance in this task. The Education Minister from the Democrat government also won international awards for his work in improving education.

You say this government is not working fast enough? What are you talking about? The Democrats have done more to enact effective police to assist the poor in 16 months than Thaksin did in 60 months. Additionally Thaksin had the benefit of riding a world financial wave. Unfortunately much of that money during those flush times was squandered into the private bank accounts of himself, his family, and his cronies. Sorry to say it, but you are sadly misinformed somo.

Edited May 11, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[somo]

I agree: absolutely rubbish article.

Thailand is modernising, which includes and benefits everyone. The government and those that are making lots of money from the economic success need to make sure everyone benefits. I think this is happening. The government helps the poor and the farmers in alot of ways. Maybe they can do more. However the route to doing more is through democratic means via the government, election process, debating and making laws in parliament, etc. You don't make these changes via violence, breaking the law and terrorism. Change is happening quickly in Thailand through the normal procedures; it does not need accelerating via demonstrations, breaking the law, violence, miss information via mass media, and turning Thais against Thais.

We all know this red shirt demonstration is being paid for by Taksin and has the sole purpose of getting Taksin back in the country and in power. He should have though about the consequences of his actions when he was in power. No one stays in power for ever. Alot of damage has been done to the country. I get fed up with the red shirt BS and propaganda. People have forgotten what morals are or the difference between right and wrong.

<deleted>!

It isn't happening nearly fast enough and that is precisely why we are seeing such deep divisions in Thai society. Thailand has a long long way to go to catch up when it comes to democracy and implementing it.

In all democracies especially fledgling ones we have seen that civil disobedience and yes even rioting has been neccessary and the catalyst for change. The haves will not share with the have nots unless they are forced to. Just telling them to go home and not to worry because Thailands perfect democratic institutions have been listening and will put everything right is ridiculous.

You do realize there was a world financial crisis last year, and it is ongoing. The sectors that employ the poor were hardest hit. This government worked hard to insulate Thailand from the crisis. The current Finance Minister won international awards for his performance in this task. The Education Minister from the Democrat government also won international awards for his work in improving education.

You say this government is not working fast enough? What are you talking about? The Democrats have done more to enact effective police to assist the poor in 16 months than Thaksin did in 60 months. Additionally Thaksin had the benefit of riding a world financial wave. Unfortunately much of that money during those flush times was squandered into the private bank accounts of himself, his family, and his cronies. Sorry to say it, but you are sadly misinformed somo.

They also have international awards for lowering of human rights, increased corruption and censorship.

Outdoing Mr T on these is quite some achievement.

Anyone can come up with stats but as I said I do understand that I would be pissed of with what the powers that be (been told not use status quo by some pedantic poster) have been up to and trying to vindicate it by saying that they are not all bad is irrelevant.

Just call an election and let see what happens. Whatever the result the new goverment would have more legitamacy than the current one.

[lungmi]

The fact is the reds are mostly poor. As you say many poor are not reds and they can vote for whoever they want.

It is because they know they will lose any election that the goverment is clinging on. By saying he will call elections the PM realizes all is not right with how the existing gov. came to power but trying to trick the reds into leaving by imposing conditions on that promise was too obvious.

Thailand is a fledgling democracy and these protest are just a part of the journey to a fuller democracy. There are thugs on both sides which is usual in any conflict but the main body of the reds are indeed just simple poor folk who for one reason or another (it really doesn't matter) have realized they do have some political power and are determined to excercise it.

Of course there are power struggles amongst the leaders of both sides and they all have their own agendas but the mass of proteters are indeed poor people who feel they have been ignored for too long and on that they are absolutely right.

Of course the staus quo is in a flap at the prospect of losing control and are prepared to go to any lengths to hang in there.

They are fighting a losing battle. They may win this one but eventually they will be voted out. Postponing the inevitable is harming everyone but staus quos resist change by definition.

The reds are mostly poor, except for their very rich leaders.

The poor have been sucked in by the handouts of Thaksin, and the red propaganda. It's not that they can't think for themselves, it's that they have not been allowed to think for themselves.

The reds are minority. The poor of Thailand are not protesting. Just the poor of the red areas. Because they are the ones that have been conned.

Abhisit is not "clinging" to power. He has the support of the majority of elected MPs. Just because the MPs that the reds elected are in the minority, does not give the protesters the right to call for new elections.

I agree that the poor need help. But these protests are not the way to force it. They have made their point and they should go home.

I stay in the rural part of a province where the people are poorer than in Esarn. 20% don't have full Thai citizen rights (Hill tribes), but they vote Democrats in the third generation. Many of the poor have international experience (Lybia, Saudi A. Irak, Nigeria, Taiwan, Brunai, Dubai Singapore, Korea etc.), they speak a little bit English, even Mandarin like my wife. They all time sussed Thaksin.

Where are the poors in Esarn with international experience as workers abroad (Pattaya doesn't count)?

[whybother]

They also have international awards for lowering of human rights, increased corruption and censorship.

Outdoing Mr T on these is quite some achievement.

Anyone can come up with stats but as I said I do understand that I would be pissed of with what the powers that be (been told not use status quo by some pedantic poster) have been up to and trying to vindicate it by saying that they are not all bad is irrelevant.

Just call an election and let see what happens. Whatever the result the new goverment would have more legitamacy than the current one.

And after that election, out comes another minority mob to force elections again.

The current government is as legitimate any of the others over the last 10 years.

[Throatwobbler]

I agree: absolutely rubbish article.

Thailand is modernising, which includes and benefits everyone. The government and those that are making lots of money from the economic success need to make sure everyone benefits. I think this is happening. The government helps the poor and the farmers in alot of ways. Maybe they can do more. However the route to doing more is through democratic means via the government, election process, debating and making laws in parliament, etc. You don't make these changes via violence, breaking the law and terrorism. Change is happening quickly in Thailand through the normal procedures; it does not need accelerating via demonstrations, breaking the law, violence, miss information via mass media, and turning Thais against Thais.

We all know this red shirt demonstration is being paid for by Taksin and has the sole purpose of getting Taksin back in the country and in power. He should have though about the consequences of his actions when he was in power. No one stays in power for ever. Alot of damage has been done to the country. I get fed up with the red shirt BS and propaganda. People have forgotten what morals are or the difference between right and wrong.

<deleted>!

It isn't happening nearly fast enough and that is precisely why we are seeing such deep divisions in Thai society. Thailand has a long long way to go to catch up when it comes to democracy and implementing it.

In all democracies especially fledgling ones we have seen that civil disobedience and yes even rioting has been neccessary and the catalyst for change. The haves will not share with the have nots unless they are forced to. Just telling them to go home and not to worry because Thailands perfect democratic institutions have been listening and will put everything right is ridiculous.

You do realize there was a world financial crisis last year, and it is ongoing. The sectors that employ the poor were hardest hit. This government worked hard to insulate Thailand from the crisis. The current Finance Minister won international awards for his performance in this task. The Education Minister from the Democrat government also won international awards for his work in improving education.

You say this government is not working fast enough? What are you talking about? The Democrats have done more to enact effective police to assist the poor in 16 months than Thaksin did in 60 months. Additionally Thaksin had the benefit of riding a world financial wave. Unfortunately much of that money during those flush times was squandered into the private bank accounts of himself, his family, and his cronies. Sorry to say it, but you are sadly misinformed somo.

They also have international awards for lowering of human rights, increased corruption and censorship.

Outdoing Mr T on these is quite some achievement.

Anyone can come up with stats but as I said I do understand that I would be pissed of with what the powers that be (been told not use status quo by some pedantic poster) have been up to and trying to vindicate it by saying that they are not all bad is irrelevant.

Just call an election and let see what happens. Whatever the result the new goverment would have more legitamacy than the current one.

Were you actually here for the Thaksin years. If you were and you really think that human rights, corruption and censorship are worse now than in the Thaksin years then there really is no helping you.

[gemini81]

Thailand is facing a real struggle caused by the disparity of income and do need major social reforms. Unfortunately this need is exploited by all parties for their own benefit. Maybe time for the real "activist" protecting the poor to stand up?

"Maybe time for the real "activist" protecting the poor to stand up?"

Well somebody has! PM Abhsit has stated many time already (along with K. Korn) that there is a need to reduce the gap, improve education to provide better/wider work opportunities, better share of the wealth for all Thais, etc. And he and K. Korn announced some months ago overriding policy which must be adhered to during lower level policy development and implementation to achieve all of the above higher objectives, and there is action.

Some examples:

- Education. The PM several months ago appointed a non beaurocrat committee of highly capable people, with broad powers and resources, to quickly redevelop education methodology, etc. Why did he do it this way? Simple answer, he knew that directing the current (highly corrupt) boffins the the Ed. ministry would achieve nothing, he knew they they would simply ignore him same as they have done to several other PMs and Education Ministers (including Thaksin), so Abhisit went around them. A first for a Thai PM.

- Income for farmers. Under massive redevelopment whereby farmers get more cash and the whole picture is much more sustainable and lesss drain on state coffers.

- Start up of a 'old-age pension scheme'

And please note that he's not 'fixing' things by handouts/giveaways (a bag of rice, some telephone cards handed out just at the right time - in other words vote buying). He is developing and implementing changes which will bring solid and sustained change in income, sharing of the wealth, quality of living, justice for all etc.

And further, many people seem to have forgotten that:

- PM Abhisit instantly sacked one of his own ministers for corruption - again a first for a Thai PM.

- Stood up to the coalition leaders about corruption and demanded they take action - again a first for a Thai PM.

- Stood up to the disgraceful long-term 'secret' practices of promotion buying in the police. Again a first for a Thai PM.

Abhisit is clearly well intentioned but it is all a bit too late and you could argue that he is only responding to pressure arising from the polical awareness of those who live outside Bangkok. For decades the Bangkok elite has run Thailand for their own benefit and didn't give a stuff about others. Now the poor have taken to the streets they now need to be pacified so of course they are thrown a bone or two. I doubt what he has done will be nearly enough and is just viewed by many on both sides as political neccessity not a true desire to help the poor. The red shirts want a lot more. They want a say in things!

They have 200 people in politics representing them. They don't need to get violent. They also have options and can make choices to manage their own lives. They can also find better leaders who can negotiate, use their brain, and win the hearts of people, rather than burning their bridges and ruining their relationships with those who may otherwise sympathize with them. It sucks to be poor, but you can't blame everyone else for your life's situation, the choices you made, and think that everyone owes you something.

[asiawatcher]

Thailand is facing a real struggle caused by the disparity of income and do need major social reforms. Unfortunately this need is exploited by all parties for their own benefit. Maybe time for the real "activist" protecting the poor to stand up?

"Maybe time for the real "activist" protecting the poor to stand up?"

Well somebody has! PM Abhsit has stated many time already (along with K. Korn) that there is a need to reduce the gap, improve education to provide better/wider work opportunities, better share of the wealth for all Thais, etc. And he and K. Korn announced some months ago overriding policy which must be adhered to during lower level policy development and implementation to achieve all of the above higher objectives, and there is action.

Some examples:

- Education. The PM several months ago appointed a non beaurocrat committee of highly capable people, with broad powers and resources, to quickly redevelop education methodology, etc. Why did he do it this way? Simple answer, he knew that directing the current (highly corrupt) boffins the the Ed. ministry would achieve nothing, he knew they they would simply ignore him same as they have done to several other PMs and Education Ministers (including Thaksin), so Abhisit went around them. A first for a Thai PM.

- Income for farmers. Under massive redevelopment whereby farmers get more cash and the whole picture is much more sustainable and lesss drain on state coffers.

- Start up of a 'old-age pension scheme'

And please note that he's not 'fixing' things by handouts/giveaways (a bag of rice, some telephone cards handed out just at the right time - in other words vote buying). He is developing and implementing changes which will bring solid and sustained change in income, sharing of the wealth, quality of living, justice for all etc.

And further, many people seem to have forgotten that:

- PM Abhisit instantly sacked one of his own ministers for corruption - again a first for a Thai PM.

- Stood up to the coalition leaders about corruption and demanded they take action - again a first for a Thai PM.

- Stood up to the disgraceful long-term 'secret' practices of promotion buying in the police. Again a first for a Thai PM.

Having met the PM I can say he has my vote. He has done all of the above an a whole heap more but the Kwai Daeng are continually being told otherwise and of course none of the PM's achievements have been noted or voiced to them.

But what is laughable is the constant demands by the reds - I would have thought that anyone with any common sense would also see how laughable that is. They are not in a position to demand anything. They, like their exiled convict leader, are now aiding, abetting and harbouring criminals within their ranks, thus should be dealt with accordingly. Criminals and terrorists? No negotiation. And the PM has shut the door on that including Thaksin who is unable to negotiate anything other than his next jail term if he ever returned. But with a useless armed force of police and army, it is anyones guess at the outcome - I am still backing the present PM.

[Dicktracy]

Thailand is facing a real struggle caused by the disparity of income and do need major social reforms. Unfortunately this need is exploited by all parties for their own benefit. Maybe time for the real "activist" protecting the poor to stand up?

"Maybe time for the real "activist" protecting the poor to stand up?"

Well somebody has! PM Abhsit has stated many time already (along with K. Korn) that there is a need to reduce the gap, improve education to provide better/wider work opportunities, better share of the wealth for all Thais, etc. And he and K. Korn announced some months ago overriding policy which must be adhered to during lower level policy development and implementation to achieve all of the above higher objectives, and there is action.

Some examples:

- Education. The PM several months ago appointed a non beaurocrat committee of highly capable people, with broad powers and resources, to quickly redevelop education methodology, etc. Why did he do it this way? Simple answer, he knew that directing the current (highly corrupt) boffins the the Ed. ministry would achieve nothing, he knew they they would simply ignore him same as they have done to several other PMs and Education Ministers (including Thaksin), so Abhisit went around them. A first for a Thai PM.

- Income for farmers. Under massive redevelopment whereby farmers get more cash and the whole picture is much more sustainable and lesss drain on state coffers.

- Start up of a 'old-age pension scheme'

And please note that he's not 'fixing' things by handouts/giveaways (a bag of rice, some telephone cards handed out just at the right time - in other words vote buying). He is developing and implementing changes which will bring solid and sustained change in income, sharing of the wealth, quality of living, justice for all etc.

And further, many people seem to have forgotten that:

- PM Abhisit instantly sacked one of his own ministers for corruption - again a first for a Thai PM.

- Stood up to the coalition leaders about corruption and demanded they take action - again a first for a Thai PM.

- Stood up to the disgraceful long-term 'secret' practices of promotion buying in the police. Again a first for a Thai PM.

Abhisit is clearly well intentioned but it is all a bit too late and you could argue that he is only responding to pressure arising from the polical awareness of those who live outside Bangkok. For decades the Bangkok elite has run Thailand for their own benefit and didn't give a stuff about others. Now the poor have taken to the streets they now need to be pacified so of course they are thrown a bone or two. I doubt what he has done will be nearly enough and is just viewed by many on both sides as political neccessity not a true desire to help the poor. The red shirts want a lot more. They want a say in things!

They have 200 people in politics representing them. They don't need to get violent. They also have options and can make choices to manage their own lives. They can also find better leaders who can negotiate, use their brain, and win the hearts of people, rather than burning their bridges and ruining their relationships with those who may otherwise sympathize with them. It sucks to be poor, but you can't blame everyone else for your life's situation, the choices you made, and think that everyone owes you something.

well said..... thank you..!

[elcent]

Any NEWS about free education and when it will be implemented? It seems this issue went into the back-burner when it is needed the most.

[animatic]

THE NATION: Nuttawut: redshirts didn't accept Suthep's appearance at DSI simply because it didn't look like he surrendered -more like a visit DSI.

Ah yes, justice is only justice if their friends get to administer it.

He didn't "look like he surrendered", these guys are going from dangerous to laughable on stage.

Sadly they are being backed into 'a logic hole', and held there by the hardcore on their own side.

School opening coming up, a true line in the sand, no government will allow innocent students

to be subjected to a Chula Hospital kind of incident.

Some one mentioned one sniper.

Hypothetically speaking here:

Well as extra legal as this might seem,

getting Sae Deang in the sights at the rally site and dropping him ONLY,

would be a game changer if done as a riot team approached.

It would severe the head of shadow warriors and their controller connection to Thaksin

and simultaneously put the fear of the gods in most all red leaders...

never able to exit the container again. Then one shot to trash the containers Air Con....

Let the riot squad back off and talks happen.

Would likely close this all down the same day.

Sae Deang isn't much of a long term martyr for anyone to hang a hat on.

Edited May 11, 2010 by animatic

[gregb]

The only people who ever made a issue of Thaksin return are the anti red shirts. It has never been a demand with the red shirts.

With all the dirty business the red shirts have done why do the anti red shirts have to bring Thaksin into the picture.

Personally I lost all respect for them when they invaded the hospital and then made light of it. They seem to take no rewsponsability for there actions and continue to put demands on others. If that is there idea of democracy ---- help us

The reds had pictures of Thaksin everywhere at the start of the rallies. Now they have dissappeared because he is such bad PR.

Thaksin brought himself into the picture every few days with his call in's.

Even just yesterday, some of the red leaders were saying that Thaksin had ordered that the leaders be changed.

The anti-red shirts aren't bringing Thaksin into the picture. The red shirts and Thaksin are.

I am an anti red shirt, and I *AM* bringing Thaksin into the picture.

I want an apology for the red shirts for their contemptible support of Thaksin before I will support leniency for any of them.

Until the reds apologize to the Thai people for their attempts to pardon the criminal and stop demeaning everyone who was victimized by the crimes he committed against the country, there will be no true reconciliation and no peace.

When the reds apologize for treating the rest of the country with contempt, we can talk about what injustices they feel they have endured. They have to denounce their support of Thaksin though in order for this to happen.

The Thaksin issue will not go away no matter how much the reds try and bury it because it is inconvenient for them. And I do not buy for an instant the red lies and propaganda that Thaksin is still not a major part of their movement.

[scorecard]

Thailand is modernising, which includes and benefits everyone. The government and those that are making lots of money from the economic success need to make sure everyone benefits. I think this is happening. The government helps the poor and the farmers in alot of ways. Maybe they can do more. However the route to doing more is through democratic means via the government, election process, debating and making laws in parliament, etc. You don't make these changes via violence, breaking the law and terrorism. Change is happening quickly in Thailand through the normal procedures; it does not need accelerating via demonstrations, breaking the law, violence, miss information via mass media, and turning Thais against Thais.

We all know this red shirt demonstration is being paid for by Taksin and has the sole purpose of getting Taksin back in the country and in power. He should have though about the consequences of his actions when he was in power. No one stays in power for ever. Alot of damage has been done to the country. I get fed up with the red shirt BS and propaganda. People have forgotten what morals are or the difference between right and wrong.

<deleted>!

It isn't happening nearly fast enough and that is precisely why we are seeing such deep divisions in Thai society. Thailand has a long long way to go to catch up when it comes to democracy and implementing it.

In all democracies especially fledgling ones we have seen that civil disobedience and yes even rioting has been neccessary and the catalyst for change. The haves will not share with the have nots unless they are forced to. Just telling them to go home and not to worry because Thailands perfect democratic institutions have been listening and will put everything right is ridiculous.

Yes there are inequities and so why didn't thaksin and many PMs before him (barnhan, chavalit, somchai, samak, and many more) address all these problems? And why aren't we seeing some discussion and criticism by the reds against these people? Perhaps you'd like to comment on this point.

I see the following points:

- PM Abhisit has already, months ago, started policies and actions to start to address the inequities but nobody (especially the reds and their supporters) want to recognize these polices and actions and the incapable media did precious little to highlight these policies/actions. And to PM Abhisit's credit he did not demand or allow NBT and other government linked media to become a voice to praise the government.

- Where in all this rubbish (read hate and spewing of threats and encouragement of violence) have the red shirts ever presented some form of manifesto or presented a specific and structured approach to change ? Never!!!

- Right now the red shirts claim that the DSI is not genuine and is not providing justice, but of course they never mention that the hero intimidated the judiciary and supervised the murder of some 2,500 fellow Thais. And they have never asked for justice in regard to the Alpine golf / temple scam.

- And anyway, the bottom line is that this is all about thaksin and nothing more.

I just hope that very quickly the lawmakers sit down and define what lessons should be learned form the last few months, and I hope that one of their 'findings' is that the constitution should be amended quickly to ensure that one man or one group simply cannot ever gain unchallengable power and control.

And by the way, where's thaksin, why hasn't he commented for the last week or more? Is he perhaps highly embarrassed or is he too busy with entertaining his scaly business buddies with coffee and cake?

Edited May 11, 2010 by scorecard

[noahvail]

The fact is the reds are mostly poor. As you say many poor are not reds and they can vote for whoever they want.

It is because they know they will lose any election that the goverment is clinging on. By saying he will call elections the PM realizes all is not right with how the existing gov. came to power but trying to trick the reds into leaving by imposing conditions on that promise was too obvious.

Thailand is a fledgling democracy and these protest are just a part of the journey to a fuller democracy. There are thugs on both sides which is usual in any conflict but the main body of the reds are indeed just simple poor folk who for one reason or another (it really doesn't matter) have realized they do have some political power and are determined to excercise it.

Of course there are power struggles amongst the leaders of both sides and they all have their own agendas but the mass of proteters are indeed poor people who feel they have been ignored for too long and on that they are absolutely right.

Of course the staus quo is in a flap at the prospect of losing control and are prepared to go to any lengths to hang in there.

They are fighting a losing battle. They may win this one but eventually they will be voted out. Postponing the inevitable is harming everyone but staus quos resist change by definition.

The reds are mostly poor, except for their very rich leaders.

The poor have been sucked in by the handouts of Thaksin, and the red propaganda. It's not that they can't think for themselves, it's that they have not been allowed to think for themselves.

The reds are minority. The poor of Thailand are not protesting. Just the poor of the red areas. Because they are the ones that have been conned.

Abhisit is not "clinging" to power. He has the support of the majority of elected MPs. Just because the MPs that the reds elected are in the minority, does not give the protesters the right to call for new elections.

I agree that the poor need help. But these protests are not the way to force it. They have made their point and they should go home.

Agreed.

And as to the Somo's point that:

"It is because they know they will lose any election that the goverment is clinging on. By saying he will call elections the PM realizes all is not right with how the existing gov. came to power but trying to trick the reds into leaving by imposing conditions on that promise was too obvious."

I will ask if the red shirts and PTP were so certain that they can win the next election, why have they not asked for a no-confidence vote in Parliament? Oh, yes, they have said they would, and got close a couple of times, but always withdrew before a vote. Why would the reds retract a call for a no-confidence vote? Would it be because the reds knew they could not win, and a victory by the PM would assure his reelection, with a possible popular mandate?

The reds are no longer confident, their leadership are fractured, and the disarray and penny-ante displays since the Chula hospital fiasco indicate that the reds are the ones who know they will not win. Just my opinion, of course, but dig below the surface of their rhetoric and you start to see a medical doctor who is running very scared, another leader who was given amnesty by the highest authority some years ago who hasn't been seen in public for two days, a major general about to be stripped of his rank and pension, an aging singer whose vocal wings have been clipped in recent days...an entire leadership that cannot come to a consensus among themselves, never mind trying to put the issues "to the people" as they promised to do. Instead, they have closed-door meeting inside a shipping container. We're not privy to what goes on in there, of course...it would be nice to be a fly...or a microphone...on the wall.

Edit to correct name.

Edited May 11, 2010 by noahvail

[gemini81]

I agree: absolutely rubbish article.

Thailand is modernising, which includes and benefits everyone. The government and those that are making lots of money from the economic success need to make sure everyone benefits. I think this is happening. The government helps the poor and the farmers in alot of ways. Maybe they can do more. However the route to doing more is through democratic means via the government, election process, debating and making laws in parliament, etc. You don't make these changes via violence, breaking the law and terrorism. Change is happening quickly in Thailand through the normal procedures; it does not need accelerating via demonstrations, breaking the law, violence, miss information via mass media, and turning Thais against Thais.

We all know this red shirt demonstration is being paid for by Taksin and has the sole purpose of getting Taksin back in the country and in power. He should have though about the consequences of his actions when he was in power. No one stays in power for ever. Alot of damage has been done to the country. I get fed up with the red shirt BS and propaganda. People have forgotten what morals are or the difference between right and wrong.

<deleted>!

It isn't happening nearly fast enough and that is precisely why we are seeing such deep divisions in Thai society. Thailand has a long long way to go to catch up when it comes to democracy and implementing it.

In all democracies especially fledgling ones we have seen that civil disobedience and yes even rioting has been neccessary and the catalyst for change. The haves will not share with the have nots unless they are forced to. Just telling them to go home and not to worry because Thailands perfect democratic institutions have been listening and will put everything right is ridiculous.

It's a constitutional monarchy, really. a mix of things. using the term democracy doesn't really apply. then you start comparing it to other countries, but it's quite different. they gotta find their own way. trying to copy models of other systems and places doesn't seem to work here. it is truly a different and special place, "amazing Thailand!"

[hawker9000]

The kind of social progressivism the reds claim to be demonstrating for is always characterized by a certain ruthlessness and ends-justify-the-means mindset. This has always been true of revolutionary movements. The Red leadership simply can't relate to the public revulsion at some of their methods. To them, anything in the name of the "people" is fair game, and "destabilization" is the NAME of the game and MUCH to be desired. I agree that it's gone beyond Thaksin now. The failure to contain the movement up until now, and the apparent unwillingness of the police or military to intervene to put an end to it, probably means that dramatic change for Thailand, very likely including a significant veer toward Marxism, is inevitable. The "establishment" has much to fear (except for those who can understand and accept the radical change, find a way to make the movement their own, and transfigure themselves - as leftists so often do - into a new "party elite").

Edited May 11, 2010 by hawker9000

[JohnLeech]

- Start up of a 'old-age pension scheme'

And please note that he's not 'fixing' things by handouts/giveaways (a bag of rice, some telephone cards handed out just at the right time - in other words vote buying). He is developing and implementing changes which will bring solid and sustained change in income, sharing of the wealth, quality of living, justice for all etc.

So why is handing out 500 baht a month any better (or any worse) than handing out rice? Its simply politics and its simply about populist policies, which neither side had any interest in when they could get what they wanted for themselves without them.

- PM Abhisit instantly sacked one of his own ministers for corruption - again a first for a Thai PM.

Really? Who? I can think of several who he only sacked when he had no option, and a number who he did nothing about at all, but I can't recall any minister who was "instantly sacked".

Ditto for the various coalition leaders, such as Newin. What action did any actually take?

Edited May 11, 2010 by JohnLeech

[JohnLeech]

A small minority of thugs do NOT get to say how the country should be run.

Why not? They always have before.

[JohnLeech]

The government and those that are making lots of money from the economic success need to make sure everyone benefits. I think this is happening.

I think so too - but I also think that some benefit more than others, as they always have (and always will). The fight is over how much more some should benefit than others.

[JohnLeech]

I stay in the rural part of a province where the people are poorer than in Esarn. 20% don't have full Thai citizen rights (Hill tribes), but they vote Democrats in the third generation. Many of the poor have international experience (Lybia, Saudi A. Irak, Nigeria, Taiwan, Brunai, Dubai Singapore, Korea etc.), they speak a little bit English, even Mandarin like my wife. They all time sussed Thaksin.

Where are the poors in Esarn with international experience as workers abroad (Pattaya doesn't count)?

So what? Why would working as a labourer in a closed site that you are either not allowed to leave (most of those countries named) or cannot afford to leave (the remainder), or in a road gang with similar restricions, give you any worthwhile "international experience"?

I have read some pretty fruity posts recently, but this has got to be one of the best so far.

[redparrot]

So why is handing out 500 baht a month any better (or any worse) than handing out rice? Its simply politics and its simply about populist policies, which neither side had any interest in when they could get what they wanted for themselves without them.

The big problem about the 500 Baht "pension" for elderly Thais is ..it doesn't help them anything. If they have no family or relatives that take care of them, how are they going to survive on 500 Baht per month? Even a tiny single room big enough to fit a mattress into costs about that. And then what do they live from?

[Jingthing]

Agreed. 500 baht per month is not enough. A good political issue to campaign for PEACEFULLY.

[redparrot]

Agreed. 500 baht per month is not enough. A good political issue to campaign for PEACEFULLY.

I'm sure if they made prostitution legal, they could get enough money from a "prostitution tax" to pay for the elderly citizens.

[hextac]

Agreed. 500 baht per month is not enough. A good political issue to campaign for PEACEFULLY.

I'm sure if they made prostitution legal, they could get enough money from a "prostitution tax" to pay for the elderly citizens.

I would gladly pay double/treble/quadruple the current VAT on cigarettes and alcohol if I could be sure it would go to the elderly in need in Thailand.

[pornsasi]

Khun Buapan obviously understands the situation a lot better than you.

But the rogue commander says he has his own authority stemming directly from Mr. Thaksin. He has the ear of the former prime minister, visiting him several times in Dubai and elsewhere since the military coup forced the leader from power in 2006, the major general and Army officers say.

"I won't leave until Mr. Thaksin tells me to," Maj. Gen. Khattiya adds."

I'd say Seh Daeng understands the situation a lot better than you.

http://www.thai360.com/fbb/showtopic.php?tid/537145/

He also said simliar yesterday.

Precisely.

No Thaksin = no faux peasant uprising.

No Thaksin = Exploitation and indifference to the poors by the elite FOREVER