Pump On/off Timer

[JAS21]

I have posted this here, if you mods think it might be better in a sub-section, maybe you would move it in a few day..thanks

I need to a control 400W single phase pump which is in our village fish pond. I would like two on/offs each day and if possible two also at the weekend but different times from the weekday ones.

Can anyone advice where I may be able to purchase a suitable timer. I plan to feed the timer from the pumps MCB on the Dist Bd. I have looked at places like HomePro and, as yet, haven’t found anything suitable.

I would appreciate any suggestions as to where to look....thanks

[welbymd]

Hi John,

A suitable timer would be the same as used for a swimming pool. Might try the local pool supply outlet.

[Crossy]

How about this, 250 Baht from Amorn

Will do exactly what you want, just have to arrange a ground if your pump needs one (I've seen 3 pin ones in HomePro but a lot more expensive).

Anyone with a little electrical nouse would be able to modify it so a plug / socket connection is not required.

[welbymd]

Whatever device you decide to use, go with a grounded timer. If the pump was installed properly, it should be grounded. While you at it, check to see if the breaker is a GFI (ground fault interrupt) too, since it is a water pump. Be safe.

[Crossy]

Whatever device you decide to use, go with a grounded timer. If the pump was installed properly, it should be grounded. While you at it, check to see if the breaker is a GFI (ground fault interrupt) too, since it is a water pump. Be safe.

Agreed, if your pump needs a ground, many pond pumps are two-wire (double insulated).

Agree 100% on the use of a GFI.

[JAS21]

Whatever device you decide to use, go with a grounded timer. If the pump was installed properly, it should be grounded. While you at it, check to see if the breaker is a GFI (ground fault interrupt) too, since it is a water pump. Be safe.

Agreed, if your pump needs a ground, many pond pumps are two-wire (double insulated).

Agree 100% on the use of a GFI.

Ok so today I had a good look at the electrics around the garden and the fish ponds. Now in the past the village was run by the company that built it, not a very nice company, however some 3-4 years ago the village decided to dispense with their services and run it themselves. Long story and somewhat irrelevant except that I can’t find out the full story of who did what to the wiring. Around the garden are wires sticking out of the ground and taped, they used to feed lights.

I have got involved as my wife is now ‘Mrs Almost Big’ on the committee and seems to be coordinating just about everything.

The electrical supply…now as you can see from the picture the DBd has a 3-phase supply. The earth bar is on the left hand side, two wires that presumably are attached to an earth rod somewhere, but not really important at present as all the circuits are two wire and there are no other connections to the earth bar!

There used to be quite large pond pumps and a lot of other stuff, now removed so the load is much reduced. The total load, I estimate, is 2-3 kWs at max and I will measure it later.

At present there is no circulation of the ponds but the workers use the pond pumps, not the original ones I think which were much larger, to water the gardens.

The pond pumps are metal cased and have an earth wire, but it is not attached to anything! The garden lights again some are metallic.

Looks like I very urgently need to get a couple of double insulated pumps for them to water the gardens with.

Long term what options please… I could put all the circuits on one phase and fit a Safe-T-Cut but it may continually trip. Could put RCD or similar, you call it GFI?, on each out going circuit that we need to use. When I checked early this morning the phase-phase voltages were 407/397/398 and phase to neutral 232/232/228. I couple of weeks ago I saw the supply company checking the phase balances throughout the village.

I suspect, but will check that the wires coming out of the ground and taped are actually disconnected at the DBd.

Thanks for any advice….Dave I have PMd you.

[Crossy]

As a start, I'd see if you can get RCBO's (combined RCD / MCB) that will fit that Square-D load centre (I assume it has a lid), Elkangorito has a good grasp of the Square-D range and should be able to help.

If you can get earth leakage protection installed you can fit local ground rods to the existing pumps so your gardeners will be safe.

For now, I'd isolate all the garden lighting until you can determine what's what. As a minimum you'll be fitting RCBOs for that too in which instance local grounds for the lights would also be adequate initially although I would be looking at installing low-voltage lighting since it's in a public area and anyone getting a shock will come knocking on your door.

Where are you located?

[Hssl]

Panasonic do a decent mechanical timer around 700B from almost any electrical hardware shop - stay away from the amorn units their $hite

[Crossy]

Panasonic do a decent mechanical timer around 700B from almost any electrical hardware shop - stay away from the amorn units their $hite

The Chinese unit I showed was perfectly adequate for the job originally required by the OP.

Having had it apart I'd still suggest it as being OK for the bigger pumps, the build quality is fine and the (single pole) relay is adequately rated.

That said, Amorn do indeed have some carp on the shelves, always have a good look at what you're buying.

[Hssl]

The said amorn unit lasted me 4 days until LCD display died, Panasonic unit has been going over a year with no dramas

Amorn YMMV

[david96]

You could install a digital or analogue DIN rail mounted timer (analogue are easier to programme) they have switched contact rated at 10A resistive. You use this to switch a contactor and install a control switch (auto-off-manual). The timer has as switch which can be used to test or manually overide the timer.

Each pump motors should be conected to an RCBO and be earthed. All external lights should be connected to an RCBO and be earthed. If an earth conductor cannot be run an electrode minimum 1.2M X 12mm copper clad steel can be installed at each light fitting and pump motor. Bond with 4sqmm minimum earthing conductor.

However, if the pumps are double insulated ( international IEC marking) they do not require earthing but the socket outlets supplying them do.

[katabeachbum]

Panasonic do a decent mechanical timer around 700B from almost any electrical hardware shop - stay away from the amorn units their $hite

yes Pansonics 700 baht mechanical is very good, but cant do different times for weekdays and weekends.

[JAS21]

Each pump motors should be conected to an RCBO and be earthed. All external lights should be connected to an RCBO and be earthed. If an earth conductor cannot be run an electrode minimum 1.2M X 12mm copper clad steel can be installed at each light fitting and pump motor. Bond with 4sqmm minimum earthing conductor.

................

Thanks, as I said that the pumps were in the fish pond, this implied that they are submersibles. Does this make any difference please? The feed is direct from the DBd mcb, via the usual Thai insulation taped joint which is external to the pond. However I have purchased an earth rod..about two metres long and a plastic terminal box and will install both.

There are about thirty lights involved, some high in the air and others built into posts. It’s just not possible to pull an earth cable between the ‘built in post ones’, nor is it really practicable to sink an earth rod at each post. Would just a GFI unit in the DBd suffice please. I think that long term the lights need changing

Thanks also to everyone who has given advice/information.

[david96]

Each pump motors should be conected to an RCBO and be earthed. All external lights should be connected to an RCBO and be earthed. If an earth conductor cannot be run an electrode minimum 1.2M X 12mm copper clad steel can be installed at each light fitting and pump motor. Bond with 4sqmm minimum earthing conductor.

................

Thanks, as I said that the pumps were in the fish pond, this implied that they are submersibles. Does this make any difference please? The feed is direct from the DBd mcb, via the usual Thai insulation taped joint which is external to the pond. However I have purchased an earth rod..about two metres long and a plastic terminal box and will install both.

There are about thirty lights involved, some high in the air and others built into posts. It’s just not possible to pull an earth cable between the ‘built in post ones’, nor is it really practicable to sink an earth rod at each post. Would just a GFI unit in the DBd suffice please. I think that long term the lights need changing

Thanks also to everyone who has given advice/information.

If it is not practicable to install an earthing conductor (2.5sqmm) and not practicable to install an earth electrode

install a RCBO (MCB/RCD) unit rated at 30mA on the distribution board as the very minimum requirement.

Consideration should be given in the future to upgrade the electrical installation where required.

[JAS21]

.

If it is not practicable to install an earthing conductor (2.5sqmm) and not practicable to install an earth electrode

install a RCBO (MCB/RCD) unit rated at 30mA on the distribution board as the very minimum requirement.

Consideration should be given in the future to upgrade the electrical installation where required.

OK thank you, I have found the Panasonic timers in HomePro at 630 baht each. The pumps have now being earthed by sinking a 2M rod at each pump local junction box.

Now we want two lighting circuits, two pump circuits and one extension lead protected by GFI relays. We don’t really want to bin the extension lead.

Due to the fact that when it rains here, it rains hard and is humid and the kit is not new, I have a little concern that if all the circuits are put on one GFI relay we could lose the lot on occasions, so the preference would be to supply each circuit via its own 30mA GFI relay. If this is done are there likely to be any nuisance trips when circuits are switched in and out? Please comment.

Would it make any difference if the circuits are all supplied from one phase or continue as now supplied from different phases. The loads are far lower now than when the initial system was installed, we are now talking about installed capacity of less than 4kWs and very unlikely for everything to be running at the same time, so it doesn’t look like there will be is a problem in swapping all circuits onto one phase. Please comment.

[elkangorito]

From the info you have provided:

1] The pump (there is only one) is supplied by a cable (size & type unknown), which is connected to the pump cable via the usual & dangerous Thai 'twist & tape' method.

2] Garden lighting cables are undesignated.

3] No form of earth leakage protection exists within the existing DB.

4] You have installed earth stake(s) upon the advice of others.

My assumptions:

1] It is highly likely that the electricity being supplied to the DB is from an IT system.

2] You (personally) are not paying for this reparation work.

3] The equipment in question (pump & garden lighting) are not on your property. This equipment is accessible by the public & others.

Based upon the above, my recommendations are as follows:

1] Install only one (1) earth stake, which should be near the DB. The cable from this earth stake should be a minimum of 4mm squared copper cable & should connect to the earth bar in the DB. The cable should be connected to the earth stake with an appropriate clamp (do not solder). The connection should then be painted with an acrylic paint (any colour).

The installation of multiple earth stakes could pose 'touch & step' voltage problems & as such, I do not recommend that you do this.

2] The cable from the DB to the pump should be 2.5mm squared 2 core + earth copper cable (TPS). The earth of this cable should then be connected to the earth bar within the DB.

3] At the pond, a power outlet needs to be installed (connected to the cable in 2]). The pump can then be plugged into this power outlet. Also, a 'plug in' timer can be used at this location. A weatherproof enclosure will be required in which to house the power outlet & also the timer.

4] Dig up all cables for garden lighting. Lay PVC conduit & then run cables within this conduit from the DB to each & every garden light. The cable should be a minimum of 1.5mm squared 2 core + earth copper cable (TPS).

5] The cable supplying the pump should be protected be an RCBO. I recommend a 'Square D' QO120vs6RCBO30 (single pole & suits 2.5mm cable). List price - 2200 Baht. This device uses one pole space but will need a seperate neutral bar (a 'protected' neutral bar) within the DB.

6] The cable supplying the garden lighting should be protected be an RCBO. I recommend a 'Square D' QO116vs6RCBO30 (single pole & suits 1.5mm cable). List price - 2200 Baht. This device uses one pole space but will need a seperate neutral bar (a 'protected' neutral bar) within the DB.

Regarding 5] & 6] above, if enough space is available in the DB, double pole RCBO's may be used instead of the ones that I have indicated. If these are used, a 'protected' neutral bar is not necessary. If this is desirable, I recommend the following:

For the pump - QO220MBGX30T. List price 4700 Baht.

For the garden lighting - QO216MBGX30T. List price 4700 Baht.

Further comments.

If the equipment is accessible to others &/or the public, I would highly recommend that you follow my advice. I would provide slightly different advice if this equipment belonged to you & was on your property (not accessible to others or the public).

[JAS21]

From the info you have provided:

1] The pump (there is only one) is supplied by a cable (size & type unknown), which is connected to the pump cable via the usual & dangerous Thai 'twist & tape' method.

2] Garden lighting cables are undesignated.

3] No form of earth leakage protection exists within the existing DB.

4] You have installed earth stake(s) upon the advice of others.

My assumptions:

1] It is highly likely that the electricity being supplied to the DB is from an IT system.

2] You (personally) are not paying for this reparation work.

3] The equipment in question (pump & garden lighting) are not on your property. This equipment is accessible by the public & others.

Based upon the above, my recommendations are as follows:

1] Install only one (1) earth stake, which should be near the DB. The cable from this earth stake should be a minimum of 4mm squared copper cable & should connect to the earth bar in the DB. The cable should be connected to the earth stake with an appropriate clamp (do not solder). The connection should then be painted with an acrylic paint (any colour).

The installation of multiple earth stakes could pose 'touch & step' voltage problems & as such, I do not recommend that you do this.

2] The cable from the DB to the pump should be 2.5mm squared 2 core + earth copper cable (TPS). The earth of this cable should then be connected to the earth bar within the DB.

3] At the pond, a power outlet needs to be installed (connected to the cable in 2]). The pump can then be plugged into this power outlet. Also, a 'plug in' timer can be used at this location. A weatherproof enclosure will be required in which to house the power outlet & also the timer.

4] Dig up all cables for garden lighting. Lay PVC conduit & then run cables within this conduit from the DB to each & every garden light. The cable should be a minimum of 1.5mm squared 2 core + earth copper cable (TPS).

5] The cable supplying the pump should be protected be an RCBO. I recommend a 'Square D' QO120vs6RCBO30 (single pole & suits 2.5mm cable). List price - 2200 Baht. This device uses one pole space but will need a seperate neutral bar (a 'protected' neutral bar) within the DB.

6] The cable supplying the garden lighting should be protected be an RCBO. I recommend a 'Square D' QO116vs6RCBO30 (single pole & suits 1.5mm cable). List price - 2200 Baht. This device uses one pole space but will need a seperate neutral bar (a 'protected' neutral bar) within the DB.

Regarding 5] & 6] above, if enough space is available in the DB, double pole RCBO's may be used instead of the ones that I have indicated. If these are used, a 'protected' neutral bar is not necessary. If this is desirable, I recommend the following:

For the pump - QO220MBGX30T. List price 4700 Baht.

For the garden lighting - QO216MBGX30T. List price 4700 Baht.

Further comments.

If the equipment is accessible to others &/or the public, I would highly recommend that you follow my advice. I would provide slightly different advice if this equipment belonged to you & was on your property (not accessible to others or the public).

[JAS21]

From the info you have provided:

1] The pump (there is only one) is supplied by a cable (size & type unknown), which is connected to the pump cable via the usual & dangerous Thai 'twist & tape' method.

2] Garden lighting cables are undesignated.

3] No form of earth leakage protection exists within the existing DB.

4] You have installed earth stake(s) upon the advice of others.

My assumptions:

1] It is highly likely that the electricity being supplied to the DB is from an IT system.

2] You (personally) are not paying for this reparation work.

3] The equipment in question (pump & garden lighting) are not on your property. This equipment is accessible by the public & others.

Based upon the above, my recommendations are as follows:

1] Install only one (1) earth stake, which should be near the DB. The cable from this earth stake should be a minimum of 4mm squared copper cable & should connect to the earth bar in the DB. The cable should be connected to the earth stake with an appropriate clamp (do not solder). The connection should then be painted with an acrylic paint (any colour).

The installation of multiple earth stakes could pose 'touch & step' voltage problems & as such, I do not recommend that you do this.

2] The cable from the DB to the pump should be 2.5mm squared 2 core + earth copper cable (TPS). The earth of this cable should then be connected to the earth bar within the DB.

3] At the pond, a power outlet needs to be installed (connected to the cable in 2]). The pump can then be plugged into this power outlet. Also, a 'plug in' timer can be used at this location. A weatherproof enclosure will be required in which to house the power outlet & also the timer.

4] Dig up all cables for garden lighting. Lay PVC conduit & then run cables within this conduit from the DB to each & every garden light. The cable should be a minimum of 1.5mm squared 2 core + earth copper cable (TPS).

5] The cable supplying the pump should be protected be an RCBO. I recommend a 'Square D' QO120vs6RCBO30 (single pole & suits 2.5mm cable). List price - 2200 Baht. This device uses one pole space but will need a seperate neutral bar (a 'protected' neutral bar) within the DB.

6] The cable supplying the garden lighting should be protected be an RCBO. I recommend a 'Square D' QO116vs6RCBO30 (single pole & suits 1.5mm cable). List price - 2200 Baht. This device uses one pole space but will need a seperate neutral bar (a 'protected' neutral bar) within the DB.

Regarding 5] & 6] above, if enough space is available in the DB, double pole RCBO's may be used instead of the ones that I have indicated. If these are used, a 'protected' neutral bar is not necessary. If this is desirable, I recommend the following:

For the pump - QO220MBGX30T. List price 4700 Baht.

For the garden lighting - QO216MBGX30T. List price 4700 Baht.

Further comments.

If the equipment is accessible to others &/or the public, I would highly recommend that you follow my advice. I would provide slightly different advice if this equipment belonged to you & was on your property (not accessible to others or the public).

Thanks..........that's the information I wanted...I really appreciate all your advice.

[elkangorito]

My pleasure John.