Growing Gap Between Haves And Have-nots In Thailand

[Utley]

This article in the Los Angeles Times really hit the Thai nail on the head: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wo...0,6930804.story

In part it says: “Perhaps the most obvious lesson from Thailand, one heavily underlined by the anti-government protesters, is the growing gap between haves and have-nots — those who have benefited from globalization's riches and those left behind.

Poverty is hardly new to Southeast Asia. But in recent years, the expectations of the poor have been raised by the media and opportunistic politicians, some argue, with limited policy follow-through, even as opportunities for those at the bottom have foundered, neighboring China powers ahead and the rich in Southeast Asia have become more ostentatious.

Whereas an earlier generation of rising Asian economies — Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore — saw many poor farmers slide into well-paying factory jobs in the cities, as have millions recently in China, most such people in Southeast Asia have never gotten that opportunity.

Economies in Southeast Asia are smaller, and most governments failed to use a rush of foreign investment before the 1997 Asian financial crisis to jump-start education, upgrade skills and leapfrog beyond cheap-labor economies.

Now, as China booms ahead with higher efficiency and plentiful investment capital, many Southeast Asian nations find themselves increasingly squeezed, leaving those at the bottom with low-paying jobs in tourism and related service sectors.

All the while, the poor are watching a privileged nouveau riche class in Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta and Manila driving flashy cars, traveling abroad and doing increasingly well.

Fanning the flames of resentment are corruption, weak institutional reform, political intransigence and use of the courts to frustrate upward political mobility.”

[wasabi]

I agree with the article in the previous post from LA Times but even this capitalist rebellion is not going to change anything. The reds simply do not have the education or skills to compete in the modern economy. For how many centuries can you farm rice with buffalo while the rest of the world is using chemistry and futures trading to do the same? Much of it is the governments fault but then again it's the people's responsibility to elect good officials. I think these people are a lost cause and not much will change in my lifetime.

[Utley]

I agree with the article in the previous post from LA Times but even this capitalist rebellion is not going to change anything. The reds simply do not have the education or skills to compete in the modern economy. For how many centuries can you farm rice with buffalo while the rest of the world is using chemistry and futures trading to do the same? Much of it is the governments fault but then again it's the people's responsibility to elect good officials. I think these people are a lost cause and not much will change in my lifetime.

I tend to agree with your observations. I do not understand why the average Thai does not improve his lot in life. For example, the Thai rice farmer today barely scrapes together a living while the rice mill owners and rice traders make huge profits. It was the same situation in the U.S. in the 1800's but there the wheat farmers banded together and formed their own cooperatives thereby eliminating the mill owners and traders. Why doesn't that sort of thing happen in Thailand? Is it cultural?

[losworld]

Well let's not forget "Thaksin" promising riches beyond their wildest dreams.

A few posters seem to indicate the Thai farmers should retrain and become techies or futures traders... rather funny actually as the growing market for commodities and agricultural goods with the world's increasing population will pay good dollars in the future particularly once the world economy increases.

A good point brought forward is the middle men making all the money in the rice production. Precisely. Why did Thaksin do nothing about this? They are being more exploited in their own territory than in Bangkok. However, you can bet the rice distributors own most of the politicians in the north east and did so when Thaksin was in power.

Reforms are needed nationwide but the farmers certainly should band together and create their own distribution network similar to the co-operative structure in North America.

[Jai Dee]

Speculation about Thailand's lese majeste laws is not permitted on the forum.

Thank you.

/Edit - Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Jai Dee
Clarification added

[Utley]

I read one interesting point of view of life in Asia in that, regardless of the type of government employed, it is the “power families” who are in control and have been for over 1,000 years.

In Asian countries that have “democracy”, it is the powerful family members who control the elections and get elected. In Asian countries that have “one party rule”, that one party is made up of interlocking powerful families.

Perhaps Asia and more specifically Southeast Asia has yet to evolve beyond feudalism! Perhaps that is the underlying problem holding Thailand back.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Utley

[Utley]

Well let's not forget "Thaksin" promising riches beyond their wildest dreams.

A few posters seem to indicate the Thai farmers should retrain and become techies or futures traders... rather funny actually as the growing market for commodities and agricultural goods with the world's increasing population will pay good dollars in the future particularly once the world economy increases.

A good point brought forward is the middle men making all the money in the rice production. Precisely. Why did Thaksin do nothing about this? They are being more exploited in their own territory than in Bangkok. However, you can bet the rice distributors own most of the politicians in the north east and did so when Thaksin was in power.

Reforms are needed nationwide but the farmers certainly should band together and create their own distribution network similar to the co-operative structure in North America.

I don’t think you can blame Thaksin for Thailand’s current social problems. Thailand’s social problems have been simmering for years; Thaksin was just ahead of his time in that he found a way to exploit those social problems for his own personal gain using modern communication technology; and pissed off the old guard in the process.

As I have stated in previous posts, had Thaksin shared the profits from the sale of Shin Corporation with the Privy Council as expected, he would still be PM today.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Utley

[givenall]

It is very easy to blame someone else when you have to blame yourself.

As mentioned previously the education, electing the right people, etc. etc. should be their focus. The mentally over her is to live for today and tomorrow will take care itself. Take bribe to vote for corrupt politicians like Thaksin, no family value, use you children to get what you want no matter what they do by closing their eyes and at the end make them responsible for their stupidity and lack of planning for when they get old.

Overall is the culture causing the problem not the rich, the rich just get the educated and then use system to get where they are. So call the culture their morality but these have allowed the problem to go this far no one cares to change the culture.

Want to change? Then make sure the children are educated, not used as a shield in violence

[DP25]

Wow, those authors really have no idea what they're talking about regarding Thailand

[Utley]

Wow, those authors really have no idea what they're talking about regarding Thailand

Would you care to elaborate?

[StreetCowboy]

8>< SNIP NESTED QUOTES DELETED ><8

So you are saying that the red shirt leaders who are made up of provincial wealthy elite, are concerned that the national government will begin to clean house and put them out on the street. That is why they fabricated the "red shirt" movement and enlisted the backing of the rural poor; to try to stop the national government from cleaning up the provinces.

An interesting thesis probably not without merit.

I don't think that the services - food, PA equipment etc. - provided at protest sites were provided by poor farmers, nor by the BMA. Do we really believe that there are wealthy altruists who would pay so much for the benefit of their peasant brethren? They should be easy to identify, from the enlightened labour practices in their businesses, and the joy, harmony and solidarity that they share with their workers. Or perhaps, the people that funded these demonstrations (regardless of any question of recompense for lost wages etc.) exploit the poor just as their less-enlightened peers do, in which case why are they funding this struggle?

My apologies for offering more questions than answers, but the gentle reader will ignore anything I tell him, and will only believe the opinions that he forms for himself

SC

[somtampet]

I agree with the article in the previous post from LA Times but even this capitalist rebellion is not going to change anything. The reds simply do not have the education or skills to compete in the modern economy. For how many centuries can you farm rice with buffalo while the rest of the world is using chemistry and futures trading to do the same? Much of it is the governments fault but then again it's the people's responsibility to elect good officials. I think these people are a lost cause and not much will change in my lifetime.

I hope you are about 85 yo then.

The farmers are using more chemicals and agricultural machines,generaly speaking.The farmers grow other products too,and many Issan folks dont rely on rice,where have you been tilak.

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

[Utley]

8>< SNIP NESTED QUOTES DELETED ><8

So you are saying that the red shirt leaders who are made up of provincial wealthy elite, are concerned that the national government will begin to clean house and put them out on the street. That is why they fabricated the "red shirt" movement and enlisted the backing of the rural poor; to try to stop the national government from cleaning up the provinces.

An interesting thesis probably not without merit.

I don't think that the services - food, PA equipment etc. - provided at protest sites were provided by poor farmers, nor by the BMA. Do we really believe that there are wealthy altruists who would pay so much for the benefit of their peasant brethren? They should be easy to identify, from the enlightened labour practices in their businesses, and the joy, harmony and solidarity that they share with their workers. Or perhaps, the people that funded these demonstrations (regardless of any question of recompense for lost wages etc.) exploit the poor just as their less-enlightened peers do, in which case why are they funding this struggle?

My apologies for offering more questions than answers, but the gentle reader will ignore anything I tell him, and will only believe the opinions that he forms for himself

SC

Did I miss something here?

[Utley]

I agree with the article in the previous post from LA Times but even this capitalist rebellion is not going to change anything. The reds simply do not have the education or skills to compete in the modern economy. For how many centuries can you farm rice with buffalo while the rest of the world is using chemistry and futures trading to do the same? Much of it is the governments fault but then again it's the people's responsibility to elect good officials. I think these people are a lost cause and not much will change in my lifetime.

I hope you are about 85 yo then.

The farmers are using more chemicals and agricultural machines,generaly speaking.The farmers grow other products too,and many Issan folks dont rely on rice,where have you been tilak.

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

I really think that education is the key and a prerequisite for democracy to really work. However that is not going to be provided by a system where non-English speaking Thais are hired to teach English.

[somtampet]

I agree with the article in the previous post from LA Times but even this capitalist rebellion is not going to change anything. The reds simply do not have the education or skills to compete in the modern economy. For how many centuries can you farm rice with buffalo while the rest of the world is using chemistry and futures trading to do the same? Much of it is the governments fault but then again it's the people's responsibility to elect good officials. I think these people are a lost cause and not much will change in my lifetime.

I hope you are about 85 yo then.

The farmers are using more chemicals and agricultural machines,generaly speaking.The farmers grow other products too,and many Issan folks dont rely on rice,where have you been tilak.

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

I really think that education is the key and a prerequisite for democracy to really work. However that is not going to be provided by a system where non-English speaking Thais are hired to teach English.

so how many european teachers dont speak correct English????

Edited May 20, 2010 by somtampet

[Utley]

I agree with the article in the previous post from LA Times but even this capitalist rebellion is not going to change anything. The reds simply do not have the education or skills to compete in the modern economy. For how many centuries can you farm rice with buffalo while the rest of the world is using chemistry and futures trading to do the same? Much of it is the governments fault but then again it's the people's responsibility to elect good officials. I think these people are a lost cause and not much will change in my lifetime.

I hope you are about 85 yo then.

The farmers are using more chemicals and agricultural machines,generaly speaking.The farmers grow other products too,and many Issan folks dont rely on rice,where have you been tilak.

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

I really think that education is the key and a prerequisite for democracy to really work. However that is not going to be provided by a system where non-English speaking Thais are hired to teach English.

so how many european teachers dont speak correct English????

The point is that an education system that employs people to teach a subject of which they have no knowledge isn't going to impart much wisdom on the student. The kids are no better off after they graduate than before.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Utley

[lopburi3]

A number of posts have been removed - some just for quotes of other posts - please strictly observe forum rules and do not get into any discussions that could violate them. Thanks.

[StreetCowboy]

[8>< SNIP NESTED QUOTES DELETED ><8

I don't think that the services - food, PA equipment etc. - provided at protest sites were provided by poor farmers, nor by the BMA. Do we really believe that there are wealthy altruists who would pay so much for the benefit of their peasant brethren? They should be easy to identify, from the enlightened labour practices in their businesses, and the joy, harmony and solidarity that they share with their workers. Or perhaps, the people that funded these demonstrations (regardless of any question of recompense for lost wages etc.) exploit the poor just as their less-enlightened peers do, in which case why are they funding this struggle?

My apologies for offering more questions than answers, but the gentle reader will ignore anything I tell him, and will only believe the opinions that he forms for himself

SC

Did I miss something here?

I don't know. What did you glean from the previous post?

My intention was to show that if the protests, which required substantial financial backing, were supported by people who were committed to furthering the lot of the poor farmer, that would be apparent not only by their support for the protests, but also for the great work that they were doing in improving conditions in the rural North East.

On the other hand, if the protests were supported by financial backers who wanted to add plunder from corruption of the national budget to their existing streams of income from corruption in local government and oppression of the poor, then that too would be apparent in the home provinces of the of the protesters.

I don't know - I have my beliefs, but I'm not an anthropologist or a historian or a policeman so I see no real reason to research this any further. Even if I did, you would still not believe what I told you, so I offer you the questions that you may form your own opinion.

Having explained my post again, maybe you can now answer your own question. I am sure it was shared by others too shy to post

SC

[TheItaliann]

If Thailand was to become Singapore, many (most) of our users would not be able to afford to live here. They can only afford to live in developing countries. Lets not even talk about them trying to find a girl friend in Singapore.

[LivinLOS]

As mentioned previously the education, electing the right people, etc. etc. should be their focus.

Isnt the whole point.. That for the last 3 elections they have voted, and consistently had the largest amount of seats, if not outright majorities.. Yet still the people they vote for do not get power ??

Telling people to vote.. When that hasnt helped them.. Seems slightly unfair..

[TheItaliann]

Peua Thai Party will be dissolved. They will be linked financially to Thaksin.

[Utley]

I don’t believe that improving the fate of the rural poor was a motivating factor of the financial backers of the red shirt protest movement. They simply used simmering social unrest to their own advantage. Nor do I think it was a matter of Thaksin trying to get back into Thailand. Thaksin was probably as much of a dupe in this thing as Joe Somchai was.

Whoever started this thing was playing a high powered chess game to be in control of the national government during the all important month of September when the new heads of the military and police will be appointed. Whoever is in control in September will appoint his own people to head up the police and military thereby being in a position to dictate who will be the “successor” when the time comes.

The Thai/Chinese power family(s) who choose the successor will be in a position to control Thailand for generations to come.

That’s my best take on the red shirt protest scenario.

[wolf5370]

<snip as could't post with so many levels of quotes>

The point is that an education system that employs people to teach a subject of which they have no knowledge isn't going to impart much wisdom on the student. The kids are no better off after they graduate than before.

Its worse than that. There is a ultural no fail/no loss of face thing in education here - where being clever and working hard isn't rewarded. Copying is widespread in any class and allowed. Students play with phones, listen to Ipods and read comics telling the teacher they will opy up later - they learn nothing. Still when exams come they pass, it may be third time through, but answers will be given and pass they will. There is no carrot or stick; no reason to try and no reason to achieve personally. This is true in towns as in rural areas, and many of these opying lazy kids laim they want to go to university - where they will probably pass too with no personal effort and as blank as they were when they started. These kids will end up in industry and management roles.

[toptuan]

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

No it wouldn't.

I educate Isaan folk (at least 70% from rural farm families), and watch them to go on and get Bachelor, Master and Doctoral degrees. They are still ostracized from the well-paying jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere in Central Thailand because of the color of their skin and lack of "pedigree." One of my good Isaan friends, a high-achieving graduate from Chulalongkorn Uni. cannot advance much beyond his entry level job in his field due to the social stigma of being from Isaan (and looking like it, too). He is surrounded by hi-so Thai-Chinese co-workers who all seem to be on a strange professional slippery slide which advances them only in the upward direction.

Such is the nature of a hierarchical society which has inherited its genes and world-and-life outlook from thousands of years of a peasant/feudal lord society structure.

An earlier post chided the Thai farmer for not banding into cooperatives to fight against the millers and middle-men who exploit them. They've tried and end up in an early grave. Hit-men hired by moneyed middle-men are alive and well in Thailand's northeast, and many others sponsored by Central Thai middle-men. No one dares stand up to them for fear of their lives and family's lives. Such is the currently still thriving feudal system in Thailand.

The social barriers are still too high to climb, even with advanced education or falling into new money (farang spouse, for example). Yes, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hence, the source of much of the anger you are seeing lately. No it doesn't excuse the violence, but it does add perspective to it.

Your "education-cures-all-woes" western pipe-dream doesn't fly here. Sorry.

Edited May 20, 2010 by toptuan

[toptuan]

<snip as could't post with so many levels of quotes>

The point is that an education system that employs people to teach a subject of which they have no knowledge isn't going to impart much wisdom on the student. The kids are no better off after they graduate than before.

Its worse than that. There is a _ultural no fail/no loss of face thing in education here - where being clever and working hard isn't rewarded. Copying is widespread in any class and allowed. Students play with phones, listen to Ipods and read comics telling the teacher they will _opy up later - they learn nothing. Still when exams come they pass, it may be third time through, but answers will be given and pass they will. There is no carrot or stick; no reason to try and no reason to achieve personally. This is true in towns as in rural areas, and many of these _opying lazy kids _laim they want to go to university - where they will probably pass too with no personal effort and as blank as they were when they started. These kids will end up in industry and management roles.

Would you kindly oil your "C" key before you say something really embarrASSing?

[GM1955]

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

No it wouldn't.

I educate Isaan folk (at least 70% from rural farm families), and watch them to go on and get Bachelor, Master and Doctoral degrees. They are still ostracized from the well-paying jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere in Central Thailand because of the color of their skin and lack of "pedigree." One of my good Isaan friends, a high-achieving graduate from Chulalongkorn Uni. cannot advance much beyond his entry level job in his field due to the social stigma of being from Isaan (and looking like it, too). He is surrounded by hi-so Thai-Chinese co-workers who all seem to be on a strange professional slippery slide which advances them only in the upward direction.

Such is the nature of a hierarchical society which has inherited its genes and world-and-life outlook from thousands of years of a peasant/feudal lord society structure.

An earlier post chided the Thai farmer for not banding into cooperatives to fight against the millers and middle-men who exploit them. They've tried and end up in an early grave. Hit-men hired by moneyed middle-men are alive and well in Thailand's northeast, and many others sponsored by Central Thai middle-men. No one dares stand up to them for fear of their lives and family's lives. Such is the currently still thriving feudal system in Thailand.

The social barriers are still too high to climb, even with advanced education or falling into new money (farang spouse, for example). Yes, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hence, the source of much of the anger you are seeing lately. No it doesn't excuse the violence, but it does add perspective to it.

Your "education-cures-all-woes" western pipe-dream doesn't fly here. Sorry.

Excellent post Toptuan.

[TheItaliann]

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

No it wouldn't.

I educate Isaan folk (at least 70% from rural farm families), and watch them to go on and get Bachelor, Master and Doctoral degrees. They are still ostracized from the well-paying jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere in Central Thailand because of the color of their skin and lack of "pedigree." One of my good Isaan friends, a high-achieving graduate from Chulalongkorn Uni. cannot advance much beyond his entry level job in his field due to the social stigma of being from Isaan (and looking like it, too). He is surrounded by hi-so Thai-Chinese co-workers who all seem to be on a strange professional slippery slide which advances them only in the upward direction.

Such is the nature of a hierarchical society which has inherited its genes and world-and-life outlook from thousands of years of a peasant/feudal lord society structure.

An earlier post chided the Thai farmer for not banding into cooperatives to fight against the millers and middle-men who exploit them. They've tried and end up in an early grave. Hit-men hired by moneyed middle-men are alive and well in Thailand's northeast, and many others sponsored by Central Thai middle-men. No one dares stand up to them for fear of their lives and family's lives. Such is the currently still thriving feudal system in Thailand.

The social barriers are still too high to climb, even with advanced education or falling into new money (farang spouse, for example). Yes, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hence, the source of much of the anger you are seeing lately. No it doesn't excuse the violence, but it does add perspective to it.

Your "education-cures-all-woes" western pipe-dream doesn't fly here. Sorry.

Why not build their own establishments and hire only Isaanites? They can even do it in Bangkok.

[wolf5370]

<snip as could't post with so many levels of quotes>

The point is that an education system that employs people to teach a subject of which they have no knowledge isn't going to impart much wisdom on the student. The kids are no better off after they graduate than before.

Its worse than that. There is a _ultural no fail/no loss of face thing in education here - where being clever and working hard isn't rewarded. Copying is widespread in any class and allowed. Students play with phones, listen to Ipods and read comics telling the teacher they will _opy up later - they learn nothing. Still when exams come they pass, it may be third time through, but answers will be given and pass they will. There is no carrot or stick; no reason to try and no reason to achieve personally. This is true in towns as in rural areas, and many of these _opying lazy kids _laim they want to go to university - where they will probably pass too with no personal effort and as blank as they were when they started. These kids will end up in industry and management roles.

Would you kindly oil your "C" key before you say something really embarrASSing?

Yes sorry 'C' key on this laptop is playing up (have to really bang it ) - can't get my main PC fixed as shop is shut! Go figure.

[slapout]

The farmers have several obstacles to overcome before they can receive a proportional share of their production. First as mentioned, middlemen/traders, who are getting half of the retail price, next you have the fertilizer/chemical suppliers who also handle seed crops, these 3 items are furnished with the farmers commitment to sell product back to the same individual, next, the borrowing rate for monies for crop investment is extremely high (bank want land as guarantee) then look at transport, no rail system exists which could be used at the local level, in most cases, so trucking is required (another organized ripoff) and this does not take into account machinery to work the land etc. When you get into the villages and see how many of the mentioned obstacles are controlled by the same people/family, you can appreciate the stumbling blocks that are in place. ( I think this is planned not accidental) Then to throw in the size of farms involved in many cases, (too small to support a family at a middle class level), education as a single solution, would not solve the problems as noted. NEXT

[toptuan]

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

No it wouldn't.

I educate Isaan folk (at least 70% from rural farm families), and watch them to go on and get Bachelor, Master and Doctoral degrees. They are still ostracized from the well-paying jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere in Central Thailand because of the color of their skin and lack of "pedigree." One of my good Isaan friends, a high-achieving graduate from Chulalongkorn Uni. cannot advance much beyond his entry level job in his field due to the social stigma of being from Isaan (and looking like it, too). He is surrounded by hi-so Thai-Chinese co-workers who all seem to be on a strange professional slippery slide which advances them only in the upward direction.

Such is the nature of a hierarchical society which has inherited its genes and world-and-life outlook from thousands of years of a peasant/feudal lord society structure.

An earlier post chided the Thai farmer for not banding into cooperatives to fight against the millers and middle-men who exploit them. They've tried and end up in an early grave. Hit-men hired by moneyed middle-men are alive and well in Thailand's northeast, and many others sponsored by Central Thai middle-men. No one dares stand up to them for fear of their lives and family's lives. Such is the currently still thriving feudal system in Thailand.

The social barriers are still too high to climb, even with advanced education or falling into new money (farang spouse, for example). Yes, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hence, the source of much of the anger you are seeing lately. No it doesn't excuse the violence, but it does add perspective to it.

Your "education-cures-all-woes" western pipe-dream doesn't fly here. Sorry.

Why not build their own establishments and hire only Isaanites? They can even do it in Bangkok.

They do--in Isaan--where the prevailing wages and revenues is 10% to 20% of a similar establishment in Bangkok, making it hard to build up capital for expansion and increasing wages.

Those who try to do so in Bangkok face impossible start-up costs (in relationship to their typical resources) and socially-related obstacles which they confront with elitist landlords, city agencies, and rapacious suppliers. Those who do get established end up with a customer base of other Isaan transplants and hence a barely-survivable income in a very expensive environment.

Edited May 20, 2010 by toptuan