American Arrested On Child Sex Charges In Chiang Mai

[djayz]

Since we can't really comment on the charge then, who is the falang looking guy in the background with all the badges on his shirt?

My question as well... what do "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Tourist Police, and do they get a portion of the proceeds of the crimes committed by the Tourist Police, which would seem fair to me.

I'll not get into a discussion about what the "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Thai police (regular as well as tourist) as I think that anyone who has meet one of these, generally useless busy-bodies, already knows. But would like to comment why Thailand has/allows such a force. Having foreign volunteers in their police force is surely an admission of:

we don't know what we're doing because we're all so badly trained;

we can't speak the language

we're lazy and it's better to get someone else to do our work for us

or any combination of the above......If I was a Thai national I would be ashamed to think that my own police force was so inadequate that they have to have Foreign volunteers to get the job done...........is there any other country in the world that does this? I know of none.............

What language? How many languages do you expect a Thai policeman to speak? How many languages does the average policeman in your country speak? Do they speak Thai? Why not?

Most countries in the world employ interpreters when the police have to deal with foreigners and those interpreters are only bought in when things have escalated to a situation where people have been taken to a police station. . At least Thailand makes the effort to have people out on the street who can help tourists.

Well said! The average police officer (in any country) can only speak his/her mother language and probably English to varing degrees and it is common practise in many countries (at least in Europe, can't speak for the rest of the world) to use interpreters.

[zigistar]

To the many people with daughters or sons (mixed or not) i like to say please dont be ashamed to openly express your love and affection for your children just because some idiot farang maybe gone think your a pedophile..i never did and never will hide om affection just because of what a stranger maybe could think.I have to say i never got any problems with anybody but i saw some posts in this threads from people who did have and others who fear to have them in the future....I learned this a long time ago"i dont care what others might think as long as i do the right thing"

[damian5000]

How does a (presumably) OLD, WHITE, man get a 10 year old Thai girl into a guesthouse alone? And not once, but multiple times? Isn't anyone at the front desk, or a cleaning person, or another guest, or anyone else at all around who asks what their deal is? I mean, everywhere I go people ask me where I'm from, where I'm going, how long I'm staying, if I'm married, anything and everything about my business.... So how does an old white man with a little Thai girl not set of any alarms?

And where were the child's parents/caretakers? Do they normally just not know where she is for substantial periods of time?

Really strange.

I mean, if the guy nabbed the girl on her way home from school once, then maybe it's a little more likely to have gone un-noticed. But this happened multiple times. You would think someone would notice.

I agree. I'm amazed how quick people are to judge. This 70 year old dude left alone with a 10 year old girl multiple times? This is a scary place to be accused of anything. There is no order to the law here and face is far more important than justice. I can't imagine the psychiatrists here are anywhere near as trained to weed out fact from fiction in a child's mind than their Western counterparts. Of course if he did it, let him hang. I just don't trust in the Thai justice system to really find the truth of it.

Edited June 18, 2010 by damian5000

[OldgitTom]

A true warning tale; farang was traveling in SE Asia (not Thailand). He got chatting to a friendly young Thai lad with very good English. The same boy turned up at his hotel. He said his 'uncle' had failed to meet him, & so he had nowhere to stay. Could he share the farang's hotel room. The farang smelled a rat, a shakedown, so refused.

Next morning, farang asked at hotel reception & learned that 'uncle' had collected boy later.

Non-rock spiders, be very, very careful out there. OGT

[souvenirdeparis]

a true warning tale

2007 I was in CM at Kad suan keo big self service restaurant downstairs with my 4 Y O krung krung son ; left him at the table just the time to gather forks etc, with an eye behind my shoulder all the time ;( his mom had warned me ' CM , plenty of pedophiles around ' , I thought, I know Thailand , there aren't that many , just Thaï gossip ; It was my first time in LOS with my son ); then I asked for something like toothpick or whatever and I was directed just round a corner , with kid out of sight; I thought, I just walk and back, 30 seconds . Well in thirty seconds flat when I came back there was this 70 y o linguist of a farang trying to engage a conversation with my son , he saw me and asked " can he talk Thaï ?"

I was not polite in my reply and he moved back to his table with another weirdo.

I know I did a mistake by not watching him all the time . But think, 30 seconds and they crawl from under the rocks.

Edited June 18, 2010 by souvenirdeparis

[souvenirdeparis]

@Damian 50000

""

I can't imagine the psychiatrists here are anywhere near as trained to weed out fact from fiction in a child's mind than their Western counterparts""

We have had the most incredible judiciary tales here in France, lives broken, because of inane psychiatry" experts" .Lots of psychiatrists here aren't too good at understanding adults as well .

(I studied some psychology long time ago for a year, enjoyed studying Piaget's works on child's psychology , like magical thinking and the way they (mis) understand measurements , weights ; and some more .Here in the land of Piaget, it's the jungle when people talk of children. Can't be worse in Thaïland .

[HerbalEd]

American man arrested for paedophilia

Police brought Mr Holley to search his residence in order to find whether or not there was further evidence for human trafficking or any other offences. (TNA)

-- TNA 2010-06-18

Presumably they found nothing when they searched his room then. Then again, what would they expect to find? A NAMBLA members card or something?

Actually they often find damning photos and/or videos.

[wishiwerethere]

There was a bit more in the Thairath.

The accused is a former American G.I. on a pension, who has been in Thailand since 2006.

He had rented a room at the guesthouse in Loi Khraw rd in Chiang Mai for about 2 months before the arrest. Members of the public became suspicious and reported him to the police after several young girls were seen go to his room, sometimes brought by an adult on a motorcycle.

He denies anything happened, saying he just gave the girl and her parent(s) money.

Apparently 3 of her female classmates were also involved.

The mother is also to be arrested for procurement.

Good photo too...

Edited June 18, 2010 by wishiwerethere

[somchai69]

AND WE ARE ALL FORGETTING SOMEONE HERE......THE VICTIM !!!!

SHE IS 10 YEARS OLD....What medical / mental health system is there in place in Thailand to help this child get through this trauma ???????

Excuse me.........

Where is the evidence that she was traumatised?

Was she dragged into the hotel?

Did she run screaming from the room?

Her mother was either in the room or close by!!

In my experience there is far more trauma caused by these "investigations" than by anything that actually happend.

Edited June 18, 2010 by somchai69

[WinnieTheKhwai]

According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently.

Again, this is according to the news on channel 3.

It's a sad sign of the times in Chiangmai that mothers are touting their young children round town of a night time, especially round the moat near Thapae Gate. A very sad indictmemt of our times.

Are you sure about that? Would that go on with any kind of regularity? (I've never seen it and always assumed that most child abuse happens very underground, through connections/contacts, etc, not out on the streets.)

[WinnieTheKhwai]

To the many people with daughters or sons (mixed or not) i like to say please dont be ashamed to openly express your love and affection for your children just because some idiot farang maybe gone think your a pedophile..i never did and never will hide om affection just because of what a stranger maybe could think.I have to say i never got any problems with anybody but i saw some posts in this threads from people who did have and others who fear to have them in the future....I learned this a long time ago"i dont care what others might think as long as i do the right thing"

Hear hear!

In addition, the poster who said he got funny looks from locals when out alone with his step children: Chances are they are merely wondering if you have dark looking children, and if they're look krung or not . Most likely you are imagining things; don't be so self-conscious.

[bf2002]

According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently.

Again, this is according to the news on channel 3.

I thought the above before I even read it.

This same story plays out over and over in the news with child prostitution.

Usually, the ones reporting the incident seem to get away with their part in the alleged crime, and their nationality does matter. This isn't the West.

[Scully]

AND WE ARE ALL FORGETTING SOMEONE HERE......THE VICTIM !!!!

SHE IS 10 YEARS OLD....What medical / mental health system is there in place in Thailand to help this child get through this trauma ???????

Excuse me.........

Where is the evidence that she was traumatised?

Was she dragged into the hotel?

Did she run screaming from the room?

Her mother was either in the room or close by!!

In my experience there is far more trauma caused by these "investigations" than by anything that actually happend.

I read some crap on TV but this tops the lot. Please inform us what your "experience" is.

We don't know yet if this child has been interfered with but if she has then I am sure that the court case is nothing like the trauma of child rape.

[Considered Opinion]

It's rather amazing to me that the Thai Visa readership would engage in a "rush to judgement" of sorts. That is, a concerted effort to find a Thai guilty in all this. Maybe it's the mother for pimping out her daughter. Maybe it's the police for not being more thorough. Or the Thai press for possibly accusing an innocent man. For Christ's sake, the freakin pervert was with a 10 yr old! The other crap is just noise. If the mother, for example, was in fact pimping her daughter (evil if true), she wouldn't be able to do it if there wasn't a ready and willing customer. I tend to believe the suspect is guilty rather than not. I know he's yet to be convicted, but I'm certainly not going to defend this guy because of the old "innocent until proven guilty" business. And you bleeding hearts out there can just stuff it.

This has got to win "FUNNIEST POST OF THE DAY"!

First, decry 'rush to judgment', and then, ENGAGE IN IT!

Seriously, there's a lot of disordered thinking in this thread...

I suppose funnier still, if the same were to happen to him, would he maintain the same stance.

In order of engagement, we have the note from the news about the issue, which names the alleged offender without comment about the mother (in the news) and a newspaper based note about "money". This then becomes mother pimping the girl out. That bit came from here on the board, started as an assumption around page 1, where Grower noted from his wife "According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently"

according to the news on channel 3. I'm not sure how many of you ever watch channel 3, but think Thai Rath with moving pictures or pretty much any tabloid newspaper. Hardly evidence IMHO.

We have notes introduced as questions throughout about the alleged offenders history. Siamsuzi introduced "How does a (presumably) OLD, WHITE, man get a 10 year old Thai girl into a guesthouse alone?" Please note at this juncture, there has been nothing in the actual news about him being in the guest-house alone with her. That was Suzi's intro to that bit.

Jingthing, then introduces charging mummy, who still hasn't been outed, but by page 5, mummy is guilty of pimping out and then we see someone talking about "most" Thais love of money and preparedness to pimp out their kids. All this from a single news story, has now achieved a life of its own here on the board.

Remember people, all this from the (probably) shoddy work of the Thai Tourist Police, who we all of course love and respect for their tenacity and devotion to their duty, and we have all heard stories of Thai people screwing their partners to the police for some perceived sleight.

My question is this: where does this leave the alleged offender, if it ends up that the mother was his squeeze for years and she has been "milking" him - "Oh daddy you are so big and strong, of course I rearry rearry rove you- mother needs new buffaro, can I have neung san baht, dahring?", and he was too thick to see it coming when he gave her the flick after finding the "wife" screwing a cop behind his back? "Daddy" when he finds out about mummy of the darling, well treated, properly schooled little girl (as a result of his money), then says "enough, clear out".

Mummy is then off to Brother in Law (cop), and makes the accusation.

Now, please, just one of you who hasn't seen or heard of some parts of this before, hold up your hand. And for those of you not party to "normal" Thai behaviour, these are some of the reasons that seasoned expats with a brain, recommend against finding your wife/squeeze in a bar.

For those who want to "hang him and dam_n the consequences", remember that if this turns out not to be true, neither Channel 3, The Nation or ThaiVisa, will be running around apologising for what they have done. It will be handled on Thaivisa with a small note in the news section which no one will care enough to comment on, and the guy has been screwed for the rest of his life, which may well be long, because you said "stuff the legality of commenting on a news issue which is Sub-Judice".

Pray to whatever higher power you respect that this never happens to you, because the Internet is forever.

[Considered Opinion]

How does a (presumably) OLD, WHITE, man get a 10 year old Thai girl into a guesthouse alone? And not once, but multiple times? Isn't anyone at the front desk, or a cleaning person, or another guest, or anyone else at all around who asks what their deal is? I mean, everywhere I go people ask me where I'm from, where I'm going, how long I'm staying, if I'm married, anything and everything about my business.... So how does an old white man with a little Thai girl not set of any alarms?

And where were the child's parents/caretakers? Do they normally just not know where she is for substantial periods of time?

Really strange.

I mean, if the guy nabbed the girl on her way home from school once, then maybe it's a little more likely to have gone un-noticed. But this happened multiple times. You would think someone would notice.

I see what youre getting at, but maybe he simply befriended the family.

Far more likely, the "family" befriended him..

[moetownblues]

Berkshire>> Allegedly. It hasn't been proven that he did anything wrong with the 10 year old. Yet. So therefor things around isn't just 'noise', it is parts of the overall picture of the event. A mom that allegedly pimped out her daughter is surely a part of that picture and shouldn't be forgotten.

If the whole story and allegations are to be believed then why isn't the mother seated beside this man?

[fiercesnake]

General warning - Please read before you post

We have decided to let this topic stay open for serious and civil discussion.

- NO hang 'em high posts

- NO flames, racist comments or insults

Be aware the person mentioned in this article is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.

If posters cannot follow these restrictions then the topic will be closed immediately and all members in violation of these restrictions will earn an immediate suspension.

Thank you for your cooperation

Not sure about the statement "innocent until proven guilty by a court of law." Think Thailand has a slightly different take on this Western approach to the judiciary. Isn't it they form a prima facie case, place him on remand and then the onus is on the alleged perpetrator to prove himself innocent through the trial process? Since I can't read Thai I'm not sure of this but I have definitely read something along these lines. Think white expatriates have to remember they are not living in the UK or some other fully developed nation and the rules here are different.

Not only are they different, the way local law enforcement officers interpret them, especially the way Thai law is written, is very open to interpretation. Considering their whole culture is about avoiding whatever issue it is and go around and around and never quite get to a real solution, their written and interpreted law is very much along the same lines. Even the age of sexual consent is open to interpretation; maybe 16, maybe 18, just depends on how it's read! Can give references for those who doubt this one!

Maybe someone can confirm or correct me on any of these ideas?

[BigC]

American man arrested for paedophilia

CHIANG MAI (TNA) -- An American man was arrested and alleged to have committed paedophilia, or having engaged in sex, with an underage child in this northern Thai province, according to provincial tourist police.

Police found evidence that the man identified as Wilbert Willis Holley, 72, had sexually abused a ten-year-old female student at a local school in Chiang Mai's provincial seat.

The girl told officials that she had been sexually molested several times by Mr Holley at a local guesthouse.

The suspect however denied the charge but the investigators are confidence that they have strong evidence to take legal action against him.

Police brought Mr Holley to search his residence in order to find whether or not there was further evidence for human trafficking or any other offences. (TNA)

-- TNA 2010-06-18

i have read that artical so i will pick my words carefully if he is proven guilty then i hope he gets the maximun sentence to stop thailand's image of a place for child sex hevon. time to take out the trash

[losworld]

If he's guilty he should be punished for a terrible act to the full extent of the law. If he is not guilty then I hope he gets a fair trial and is not extorted into a settlement.

However, where there is smoke there is generally fire.

[Fookhaht]

If he's guilty he should be punished for a terrible act to the full extent of the law. If he is not guilty then I hope he gets a fair trial and is not extorted into a settlement.

However, where there is smoke there is generally fire.

But many cannot distinguish between smoke and fog. So, be slow to hang 'em high, my friend.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Fookhaht

[Johnice]

How does a (presumably) OLD, WHITE, man get a 10 year old Thai girl into a guesthouse alone? And not once, but multiple times? Isn't anyone at the front desk, or a cleaning person, or another guest, or anyone else at all around who asks what their deal is? I mean, everywhere I go people ask me where I'm from, where I'm going, how long I'm staying, if I'm married, anything and everything about my business.... So how does an old white man with a little Thai girl not set of any alarms?

And where were the child's parents/caretakers? Do they normally just not know where she is for substantial periods of time?

Really strange.

I mean, if the guy nabbed the girl on her way home from school once, then maybe it's a little more likely to have gone un-noticed. But this happened multiple times. You would think someone would notice.

With the consent $$ of her mother.

poor kid.

I lived in Jomtien, Pattaya, I had an Australian living over the street from me who was actively involved in child molestation with kids some of which were younger than 10. He got his victims delivered to him by his house cleaner. He was reported to the police twice while i stayed in the area and on both occasions was arrested. Within an hour or so he was released and brought back home by THE POLICE. We in the neighborhood gave up calling the POLICE!!!!!!!!

[sibeymai]

The shakedown setup is something all foreigners in Thailand need to be aware of and guard against. For the well intentioned it's easy to be trapped and can cost upwards of 1m baht to get out of.

There is likely to be more than a few innocents doing time in Thai jails right now simply because they couldn't prove their innocence or buy their way out.

[ableguy]

I have no idea if he is guilty or not, which is for the Thai Courts to decide.

Not referring necessarily to this particular case, does anyone know if the Thai Authorities do background checks upon persons like retirees/long stayers to discover if anyone applying to be in Thailand long time has a criminal record in their home country?

And if not, why not?

If a check is done and it is discovered a person has a record such as for child abuse, then surely that person should not be allowed to be here?

If he is allowed to be in Thailand despite having such a known record, the Thai authorities ought to bear some responsibility if he commits a crime whilst here.

Yes to get a retirement visa you have to produce a police back ground report from youe home country, but am not sure how this is affected by statute of limitations, probably varies from country to country.

[ableguy]

Is the 72 year old man guilty or not? At this point nobody can really say but for sure there is something amiss here, be it the 10 year old, her mother or the man, one or more of them is guilty of something for sure. Another thing for sure, if any of this is true the 10 year old is a victim no matter how you look at it. In any event it is truly a sad case and the truth needs to be sorted out and treatment for the victim needs to start now. OK I'm probably going to regret responding to this thread but sometimes when I read post from people who act as if they know it all, blasting others without really trying to verify it on their own I get the urge to have my say.

I'm talking about people blasting the police volunteers. First, my position is neutral; I don't know any of the volunteers and have never (in spite of my bad driving) ever had the opportunity to meet a Thai policeman.

In spite of some misinformation posted here, there are volunteer police programs in many other countries. Canada for one in deed has such a program and to confirm it all you have to do is Google volunteer police Canada and you will find dozens of hits. Here is one of many examples:

[email protected].

I also know there are many volunteer police programs in America. They go by various names but the most common one is COPs or Citizens on Patrol. Google it if you must.

Try driving up and down Sukhumvit in Bangkok you will get to meet many Thai policemen.

[lonewolf99]

AND WE ARE ALL FORGETTING SOMEONE HERE......THE VICTIM !!!!

SHE IS 10 YEARS OLD....What medical / mental health system is there in place in Thailand to help this child get through this trauma ???????

Excuse me.........

Where is the evidence that she was traumatised?

Was she dragged into the hotel?

Did she run screaming from the room?

Her mother was either in the room or close by!!

In my experience there is far more trauma caused by these "investigations" than by anything that actually happend.

I read some crap on TV but this tops the lot. Please inform us what your "experience" is.

We don't know yet if this child has been interfered with but if she has then I am sure that the court case is nothing like the trauma of child rape.

Thanks SKULLY for your response to this "Experienced' person...SOMCHAI69 ...name says it all ?

I thought I was losing my marbles when I first read their remark. I have read through 6 pages of responses and I think I am one of only two that mention the victim. No 10 year old any where in the world being manipulated or controlled by adults in these situtations has any say in what happens to them until the perverts are caught out, or the kid has the courage to talk to someone that can actuually help them. Sadly, that does not include the Thai police force.

I'm not even saying this guy is guilty or the mother. But if it is all true and the mother was selling her child to the man for sex. It really saddens me no matter what nationality.

Read my first line folks....how does a 9 year old boy tell anyone about a mother like he has ?

[Somrak]

Be aware the person mentioned in this article is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.

Then, why The Nation does show the picture of a "innocent person"!

Why this vollontier police ...... is not ashamed, why ..... ????

]Be aware the person mentioned in this article is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law

[Jingthing]

Yes to get a retirement visa you have to produce a police back ground report from youe home country, but am not sure how this is affected by statute of limitations, probably varies from country to country.

Only for the O-A visa. Probably MOST retirees here have never used the O-A visa.

[ryladie99]

Since we can't really comment on the charge then, who is the falang looking guy in the background with all the badges on his shirt?

Thanks for posting and I do believe in Karma....

I wonder who is a good looking Falang with all the badges??? Answer quick??? ( this gentleman looks like my cousin in America )

[stepenwolf1958]

If you ask me - I don't believe he did it. We don't have some very important details more, so we could conclude what really happened.

All looks like he didn't want to dance as some one played.

In other words, i guess guy didn't make what was expected (some plan of Thais as mother is more then involved) so all turned this way like revenge.

We are all sensitive about this kind of matters and it's normal but to many things here stinking.

I agree with all posters here and i just wonder WHY all of this comes in a moment after Thailand is acused for human trafficking by America(Hillary Clinton).

Is this just Thai foolish way of propaganda, so we all should to get the message as they want to say "You see? We(Thais) don't do it, it is what you(Americans this time) doing?"

Is this what is all about?

I just hope american embassy will stand after this man,to protect him, until will be clear he did it or not.

[djayz]

a true warning tale

2007 I was in CM at Kad suan keo big self service restaurant downstairs with my 4 Y O krung krung son ; left him at the table just the time to gather forks etc, with an eye behind my shoulder all the time ;( his mom had warned me ' CM , plenty of pedophiles around ' , I thought, I know Thailand , there aren't that many , just Thaï gossip ; It was my first time in LOS with my son ); then I asked for something like toothpick or whatever and I was directed just round a corner , with kid out of sight; I thought, I just walk and back, 30 seconds . Well in thirty seconds flat when I came back there was this 70 y o linguist of a farang trying to engage a conversation with my son , he saw me and asked " can he talk Thaï ?"

I was not polite in my reply and he moved back to his table with another weirdo.

I know I did a mistake by not watching him all the time . But think, 30 seconds and they crawl from under the rocks.

I don't have any children so I can't really know what it's like to worry/care for a son/daughter 24/7 but stories like this give me the creeps...