June 25, 200520 yr National Security Watch: Eurolefties fund Iraq insurgency Insurgents planting car bombs, like this one in Southern Baghdad, find new support in old Europe. Who's funding the insurgents in Iraq? The list of suspects is long: ex-Baathists, foreign jihadists, and angry Sunnis, to name a few. Now add to that roster hard-core Euroleftists. Turns out that far-left groups in western Europe are carrying on a campaign dubbed Ten Euros for the Resistance, offering aid and comfort to the car bombers, kidnappers, and snipers trying to destabilize the fledgling Iraq government. In the words of one Italian website, Iraq Libero (Free Iraq), the funds are meant for those fighting the occupanti imperialisti. The groups are an odd collection, made up largely of Marxists and Maoists, sprinkled with an array of Arab emigres and aging, old-school fascists, according to Lorenzo Vidino, an analyst on European terrorism based at The Investigative Project in Washington, D.C. "It's the old anticapitalist, anti-U.S., anti-Israel crowd," says Vidino, who has been to their gatherings, where he saw activists from Austria, Denmark, Germany, and Italy. "The glue that binds them together is anti-Americanism." The groups are working on an October conference to further support. "the Iraqi Resistance." A key goal is to expand backing for the insurgents from the fringe left to the broader antiwar and antiglobalization movements. One conference sponsor, Campo Antiimperialista (the Anti-Imperialist Camp), credits the 10-euro campaign for buying 2 tons of medicine for Al Anbar province, a hotbed of resistance, to be distributed "completely independent from both the occupiers as well as their local puppets. LINK
June 25, 200520 yr National Security Watch: Eurolefties fund Iraq insurgency Insurgents planting car bombs, like this one in Southern Baghdad, find new support in old Europe. Who's funding the insurgents in Iraq? The list of suspects is long: ex-Baathists, foreign jihadists, and angry Sunnis, to name a few. Now add to that roster hard-core Euroleftists. Turns out that far-left groups in western Europe are carrying on a campaign dubbed Ten Euros for the Resistance, offering aid and comfort to the car bombers, kidnappers, and snipers trying to destabilize the fledgling Iraq government. In the words of one Italian website, Iraq Libero (Free Iraq), the funds are meant for those fighting the occupanti imperialisti. The groups are an odd collection, made up largely of Marxists and Maoists, sprinkled with an array of Arab emigres and aging, old-school fascists, according to Lorenzo Vidino, an analyst on European terrorism based at The Investigative Project in Washington, D.C. "It's the old anticapitalist, anti-U.S., anti-Israel crowd," says Vidino, who has been to their gatherings, where he saw activists from Austria, Denmark, Germany, and Italy. "The glue that binds them together is anti-Americanism." The groups are working on an October conference to further support. "the Iraqi Resistance." A key goal is to expand backing for the insurgents from the fringe left to the broader antiwar and antiglobalization movements. One conference sponsor, Campo Antiimperialista (the Anti-Imperialist Camp), credits the 10-euro campaign for buying 2 tons of medicine for Al Anbar province, a hotbed of resistance, to be distributed "completely independent from both the occupiers as well as their local puppets. LINK <{POST_SNAPBACK}> With the greatest of respect, this is not new, in the context of the Middle East as a whole. And I doubt very much if it is that new to the security officials in Iraq. This anti-American coalition has been active, to my knowledge, since the 80s - more detailed and accurate research could probable trace the start-up to the end of the war in Vietnam. But it actually reared its head above the barriers in the early 80s, with direct involvement in the Lebanese civil war and continued involvement with Palestinian terrorists. There was a bank robbery in Denmark (mid 80s - I cannot remember the exact date) - about $500,000 was stolen as far as I remember. The really terrible thing was that the robbery was detected by a police patrol car, resulting in the death of the police officers in the ensuing gunfire. The robbers escaped with the money. A few days later, there was a car accident on a motorway north of Copenhagen. The driver had skidded off the road, into a tree. He was blinded as a result of this. In the car was found a little of the money plus some keys, which eventually were traced to an apartment. This was an apartment that was clearly rented by an intellectual; full of leftwing books and literature. The police discovered letters indicating the money from the robbery was intended to be transferred to a Palestinian terrorist group in France. The international nature of this robber group was also obvious. The blind robber - a university educated Dane - has never spoken a word under interrogation, nor has the majority of the money been found. His accomplices are still free. This is the most dramatic of the links between European left, anti-Israel, anti-American groups - but there are many more - from "innocent" fundraising through to actual physical involvement in terrorist actions. The Baader-Meinhof /fascist attitudes of the 70s are not stamped out, they are just redirected to any activity that can destabilise an American directed peace in the middle east.
June 25, 200520 yr Author National Security Watch: Eurolefties fund Iraq insurgency Insurgents planting car bombs, like this one in Southern Baghdad, find new support in old Europe. Who's funding the insurgents in Iraq? The list of suspects is long: ex-Baathists, foreign jihadists, and angry Sunnis, to name a few. Now add to that roster hard-core Euroleftists. Turns out that far-left groups in western Europe are carrying on a campaign dubbed Ten Euros for the Resistance, offering aid and comfort to the car bombers, kidnappers, and snipers trying to destabilize the fledgling Iraq government. In the words of one Italian website, Iraq Libero (Free Iraq), the funds are meant for those fighting the occupanti imperialisti. The groups are an odd collection, made up largely of Marxists and Maoists, sprinkled with an array of Arab emigres and aging, old-school fascists, according to Lorenzo Vidino, an analyst on European terrorism based at The Investigative Project in Washington, D.C. "It's the old anticapitalist, anti-U.S., anti-Israel crowd," says Vidino, who has been to their gatherings, where he saw activists from Austria, Denmark, Germany, and Italy. "The glue that binds them together is anti-Americanism." The groups are working on an October conference to further support. "the Iraqi Resistance." A key goal is to expand backing for the insurgents from the fringe left to the broader antiwar and antiglobalization movements. One conference sponsor, Campo Antiimperialista (the Anti-Imperialist Camp), credits the 10-euro campaign for buying 2 tons of medicine for Al Anbar province, a hotbed of resistance, to be distributed "completely independent from both the occupiers as well as their local puppets. LINK With the greatest of respect, this is not new, in the context of the Middle East as a whole. The Baader-Meinhof /fascist attitudes of the 70s are not stamped out, they are just redirected to any activity that can destabilise an American directed peace in the middle east. The author John LeCarre popularized this subject some time ago with his novel "Little Drummer Girl" which illustrates your point succinctly. What's interesting is the following: Flypaper Revisited: Even the BBC Acknowledges The War In Iraq Has Made Europe Safer A BBC interviewee, Jeremy Binnie of Jane's Terrorism and Insurgency Centre, put it thusly: The war in Iraq has minimized the threat to Europe because everyone who's Jihad-inclined wants to go fight over there. So even though some of these… the guys suspected of involvement in the train bombings have reportedly gone over to lodge themselves in Iraq. So there are these radicals sort of coming out of Europe and actually going to a different theater altogether. The whole thing is worth reading. The left jeers at the "flypaper" theory, but the fact is, the world's terrorists are flocking to Iraq -- rather than Israel, Bali, or Los Angeles -- because they understand, better than the left does, how crucially important Iraq is to their cause. If Iraq "falls" -- that is, if Iraq succeeds in becoming a peaceful, democratic pluralist semi-secularist decent regime -- the jihadist cause suffers a powerful defeat. What say K. p1p & K. Meadish?
June 25, 200520 yr The author John LeCarre popularized this subject some time ago with his novel "Little Drummer Girl" which illustrates your point succinctly. What's interesting is the following: Flypaper Revisited: Even the BBC Acknowledges The War In Iraq Has Made Europe Safer A BBC interviewee, Jeremy Binnie of Jane's Terrorism and Insurgency Centre, put it thusly: The war in Iraq has minimized the threat to Europe because everyone who's Jihad-inclined wants to go fight over there. So even though some of these… the guys suspected of involvement in the train bombings have reportedly gone over to lodge themselves in Iraq. So there are these radicals sort of coming out of Europe and actually going to a different theater altogether. The whole thing is worth reading. The left jeers at the "flypaper" theory, but the fact is, the world's terrorists are flocking to Iraq -- rather than Israel, Bali, or Los Angeles -- because they understand, better than the left does, how crucially important Iraq is to their cause. If Iraq "falls" -- that is, if Iraq succeeds in becoming a peaceful, democratic pluralist semi-secularist decent regime -- the jihadist cause suffers a powerful defeat. What say K. p1p & K. Meadish? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, John LeCarree's picture in The Little Drummer Girl is extremely accurate - he is not without his sources and contacts in this murky business. My own opinion is, this concentration of the world's terrorists in Iraq to combat US and UK forces, has all along been Saddam Hussein's game plan. The clues to this are many: 1. The Iraqis are intelligent people and devious strategists, therefore I could not accept the rather simplistic methods attributed to them to combat the proposed and eventual invasion: use of weapons of mass destruction, deployment of huge troop concentrations, week long attrition like battles, carnage and hand to hand fighting throughout every major city. Hussein will have dismissed all these as unwinable and concentrated on planning what he is best at: guerrilla and insurgency warfare. 2. Just look at the relative ease of the invasion and the taking of Baghdad. What better proof that there already was an alternative plan to combat the invaders. 3. The deployment of "foreign" troops supporting Iraq in the war is interesting, always avoiding major confrontation so as to be well prepared for the longer war being fought now.
June 25, 200520 yr I have no respect for war-mongerers, irrespective of their political stance, and I have no intention or reason to try to deny the existance of such extreme left-wing groups. I do not support them at all, and I am fully in favour of a democratic Iraq. Did you really think otherwise? In that case I fail to see the point of taking this any further. Should I insinuate you are a fascist or a KKK supporter then Boon-Mee, just because these groups happen to be on the same side of the political spectrum as yourself? No - that is cheap debate tactics. I am what I am, and I take responsibility for what I say and do. I totally fail to see what some war-mongering Maoist nutters you have digged up from the closets of history have to do with me. On a purely tactical note, of course the non-democrats/baaht partyists opt for guerilla warfare... why shouldn't they? As for Saddam Hussein's plans, I haven't the foggiest.
June 25, 200520 yr Author I totally fail to see what some war-mongering Maoist nutters you have digged up from the closets of history have to do with me. ไม่เป็นไรครับ Talking about the "flypaper theory" here. What Maoist nutters?
June 25, 200520 yr I have no respect for war-mongerers, irrespective of their political stance, and I have no intention or reason to try to deny the existance of such extreme left-wing groups. I do not support them at all, and I am fully in favour of a democratic Iraq. Did you really think otherwise? In that case I fail to see the point of taking this any further. Should I insinuate you are a fascist or a KKK supporter then Boon-Mee, just because these groups happen to be on the same side of the political spectrum as yourself? No - that is cheap debate tactics. I am what I am, and I take responsibility for what I say and do. I totally fail to see what some war-mongering Maoist nutters you have digged up from the closets of history have to do with me. On a purely tactical note, of course the non-democrats/baaht partyists opt for guerilla warfare... why shouldn't they? As for Saddam Hussein's plans, I haven't the foggiest. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I am not sure I understand you taking this so personal. Surely the remarks of the OP and myself are just observations on a current situation coupled with our own opinions on causes and motives. If you have some other observations and opinions please feel free to contribute, so we may argue. Or am I missing a vital point here - is this thread only about whose got the biggest d*ck - Boon Mee or Meadish?
June 25, 200520 yr The size of my d*ck is classified for reasons of national security. I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you afterwards. Looks like I misread your post there BoonMee.. so sorry about my heated reply. As for the flypaper theory, I haven't a clue - sorry - so I cannot join your debate. I sincerely do pity the Iraqi civilians who get caught in the middle though. They suffered long enough, first under a dictatorship, and of course they were the ones who bore the bulk of the burden caused by the sanctions imposed on them, as well as the casualties suffered by the US invasion.
June 25, 200520 yr Isn't there somewhere else that you can discuss this crap...? whistling.giftotster rolleyes.gif Same goes for this thread... totster
June 25, 200520 yr Author Isn't there somewhere else that you can discuss this crap...? whistling.giftotster rolleyes.gif Same goes for this thread... totster This is Bedlam and as long as George/dr. PP don't mind...
June 25, 200520 yr Author I sincerely do pity the Iraqi civilians who get caught in the middle though. They suffered long enough, first under a dictatorship, and of course they were the ones who bore the bulk of the burden caused by the sanctions imposed on them, as well as the casualties suffered by the US invasion. While you pity the civilians who are "cought in the middle" as you say, they are still overwhelmingly in favor of the regime change. Glad Saddam is out and are grateful for the US 'invasion'. For once they have a Democratically elected government with a Constitution coming shortly. What y'all see and hear in the MSM (mainstream media) is all the bad news. Take off the blinkers...
June 26, 200520 yr I sincerely do pity the Iraqi civilians who get caught in the middle though. They suffered long enough, first under a dictatorship, and of course they were the ones who bore the bulk of the burden caused by the sanctions imposed on them, as well as the casualties suffered by the US invasion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> While you pity the civilians who are "cought in the middle" as you say, they are still overwhelmingly in favor of the regime change. Glad Saddam is out and are grateful for the US 'invasion'. For once they have a Democratically elected government with a Constitution coming shortly. What y'all see and hear in the MSM (mainstream media) is all the bad news. Take off the blinkers... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Boon, come on mate, those specs you wear need a good clean. mainstream media, indy media, web bloggers and most media paint a bleak outcome/future after the invasion, they always have - except for Fox of course a question - if all the civilians caught in the middle are in favour of a regime change and are grateful for the invasion, as you put it - why is there so much unrest in the country? Stifling Baghdad Despairs As Water Cut Adds To Misery By Oliver Poole in Baghdad The Telegraph - UK 6-25-5 Lubna Ali was resigned to the daily electricity shortages that cut off the lights, shut down the air conditioning and left her family sweltering in the summer heat. She coped with her terror of the bombs, drive-by shootings and kidnappings by deciding, at the start of this year, to venture no further than her garden gate. But the final straw for the 42-year-old housewife from the middle-class New Baghdad district in the Iraqi capital came when a rebel attack on a water plant cut off supplies to two million people. With the temperature above 50C, this brought Mrs Ali "the true knowledge of despair". "I didn't think it could get worse - and then it did," she said, her kitchen filled with dirty plates and the lavatories unflushed. "The children are crying. All we want is to pour some water on our bodies. "I now wish we could go back to Saddam's time. We suffered then, but not like the suffering nowadays. There is no water or electricity. I can't sleep because of the heat. How are we to live these lives of misery?" At a conference in Brussels this week, the Iraqi government briefed representatives from more than 80 countries and organisations on its programmes to rebuild the county, and listed its achievements. In Baghdad, meanwhile, crowds of thirsty people waited for hours at emergency water pipes to fill jerry cans and buckets, while women washed clothes in the dirty waters of the Euphrates. The citizens of this city do not give up easily. The shock, fear and chaos that came with the American takeover was soon replaced by black humour and stoicism. Outsiders are invariably astounded at how - after yet another bombing - street vendors can reopen their stalls, even as the bloodstains are being hosed from the pavements. But the mood in the city is increasingly one of desperation. While residents wait in vain for promised reconstruction projects to materialise, the government cannot even agree on the make-up of the committee to draw up a new constitution, let alone its contents. Sovereignty was returned to the Iraqi people from the occupying administration a year ago. But electricity output in the capital has decreased in the past five months - averaging only 854 megawatts per day now, compared with 2,500 megawatts before the war. The rationing system for sugar and baby milk collapsed at the beginning of the year, forcing many to go without. Sadr City, the vast slum in the capital's west, is in the grip of a hepatitis outbreak. Forty per cent of Baghdad's homes have reported sewage on the streets. Fresh water had finally returned to most of the city by last night - but for only two hours a day. And then there are the suicide bombers. After a brief lull earlier this month, when the Iraqi army launched Operation Lightning to root out insurgents in the city and made more than 1,000 arrests, they resumed their deadly work as usual last week. Shortly after dawn on Thursday, four bombs exploded in Karada, a district known for its teashops and clothing stores, killing 15 people, only hours after three other blasts had torn through the Shula neighbourhood. At one bomb scene, the mangled chassis of a car hung from a tree and the blue tiles were stripped from an adjacent mosque. Masked Iraqi police moved in, bringing central Baghdad traffic to a standstill for 90 minutes. Standing beside a pool of blood, Abu Radhi, an architect, said: "This city was once the most beautiful in the Middle East. People would stroll by the river at dusk and the restaurants were filled with laughter. Now our life is this." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/200 5/06/25/wirq25.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/06/25/ixworld.html
June 26, 200520 yr The Most Cowardly War in History By Arundhati Roy World Tribunal on Iraq 6-25-5 Opening Statement of Arundhati Roy on behalf of the jury of conscience of the world tribunal of Iraq. Istanbul, Turkey - This is the culminating session of the World Tribunal on Iraq. It is of particular significance that it is being held here in Turkey where the United States used Turkish air bases to launch numerous bombing missions to degrade Iraqs defenses before the March 2003 invasion and has sought and continues to seek political support from the Turkish government, which it regards as an ally. All this was done in the face of enormous popular opposition by the Turkish people. As a spokesperson for the jury of conscience, it would make me uneasy if I did not mention that the government of India is also, like the government of Turkey, positioning itself as a ally of the United States in its economic policies and the so-called War on Terror. The testimonies at the previous sessions of the World Tribunal on Iraq in Brussels and New York have demonstrated that even those of us who have tried to follow the war in Iraq closely are not aware of a fraction of the horrors that have been unleashed in Iraq. The Jury of Conscience at this tribunal is not here to deliver a simple verdict of guilty or not guilty against the United States and its allies. We are here to examine a vast spectrum of evidence about the motivations and consequences of the US invasion and occupation, evidence that has been deliberately marginalized or suppressed. Every aspect of the war will be examined - its legality, the role of international institutions and major corporations in the occupation, the role of the media, the impact of weapons such as depleted uranium munitions, napalm, and cluster bombs, the use of and legitimation of torture, the ecological impacts of the war, the responsibility of Arab governments, the impact of Iraqs occupation on Palestine, and the history of US and British military interventions in Iraq. This tribunal is an attempt to correct the record. To document the history of the war not from the point of view of the victors but of the temporarily - and I repeat the word temporarily - anquished. Before the testimonies begin, I would like to briefly address as straightforwardly as I can a few questions that have been raised about this tribunal. The first is that this tribunal is a Kangaroo Court. That it represents only one point of view. That it is a prosecution without a defense. That the verdict is a foregone conclusion. Now this view seems to suggest a touching concern that in this harsh world, the views of the US government and the so-called Coalition of the Willing headed by President George Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair have somehow gone unrepresented. That the World Tribunal on Iraq isn't aware of the arguments in support of the war and is unwilling to consider the point of view of the invaders. If in the era of the multinational corporate media and embedded journalism anybody can seriously hold this view, then we truly do live in the Age of Irony, in an age when satire has become meaningless because real life is more satirical than satire can ever be. Let me say categorically that this tribunal is the defense. It is an act of resistance in itself. It is a defense mounted against one of the most cowardly wars ever fought in history, a war in which international institutions were used to force a country to disarm and then stood by while it was attacked with a greater array of weapons than has ever been used in the history of war. Second, this tribunal is not in any way a defense of Saddam Hussein. His crimes against Iraqis, Kurds, Iranians, Kuwaitis, and others cannot be written off in the process of bringing to light Iraqs more recent and still unfolding tragedy. However, we must not forget that when Saddam Hussein was committing his worst crimes, the US government was supporting him politically and materially. When he was gassing Kurdish people, the US government financed him, armed him, and stood by silently. Saddam Hussein is being tried as a war criminal even as we speak. But what about those who helped to install him in power, who armed him, who supported him - and who are now setting up a tribunal to try him and absolve themselves completely? And what about other friends of the United States in the region that have suppressed Kurdish peoples and other peoples rights, including the government of Turkey? There are remarkable people gathered here who in the face of this relentless and brutal aggression and propaganda have doggedly worked to compile a comprehensive spectrum of evidence and information that should serve as a weapon in the hands of those who wish to participate in the resistance against the occupation of Iraq. It should become a weapon in the hands of soldiers in the United States, the United Kingdom, Italy, Australia, and elsewhere who do not wish to fight, who do not wish to lay down their lives - or to take the lives of others - for a pack of lies. It should become a weapon in the hands of journalists, writers, poets, singers, teachers, plumbers, taxi drivers, car mechanics, painters, lawyers - anybody who wishes to participate in the resistance. The evidence collated in this tribunal should, for instance, be used by the International Criminal Court (whose jurisdiction the United States does not recognize) to try as war criminals George Bush, Tony Blair, John Howard, Silvio Berlusconi, and all those government officials, army generals, and corporate CEOs who participated in this war and now profit from it. The assault on Iraq is an assault on all of us: on our dignity, our intelligence, and our future. We recognize that the judgment of the World Tribunal on Iraq is not binding in international law. However, our ambitions far surpass that. The World Tribunal on Iraq places its faith in the consciences of millions of people across the world who do not wish to stand by and watch while the people of Iraq are being slaughtered, subjugated, and humiliated. Arundhati Roy received the Booker Prize for literature in 1997. Presently, one of the most eloquent voices for the global justice and anti-war movement, she was also awarded, among many others, the Sydney Peace Prize in 2004, and the Lannan Cultural Freedom Prize in 2002
June 26, 200520 yr 'US A Bigger Killer Than Saddam' 6-25-5 ISTANBUL (AFP) -- The World Tribunal on Iraq (WTI), a grouping of NGOs and intellectuals opposed to the war in Iraq, yesterday accused the United States of causing more deaths in Iraq than ousted president Saddam Hussain. "With two wars and 13 years of criminal sanctions, the United States have been responsible for more deaths in Iraq than Saddam Hussain," Larry Everest, a journalist, told hundreds of anti-war activists gathered in Istanbul. Founded in 2003, the WTI is modelled on the 1960s Russell Tribunal, created by the British philosopher Bertrand Russell to denounce the war in Vietnam. It has held about 20 sessions so far in different locations around the world. A symbolic verdict was to be handed down on Monday by the 14 "jurors of conscience" - including the Indian novelist Arundhati Roy, winner of the 1997 Booker Prize for The God of Small Things. The tribunal has for the past two years been gathering what it says is evidence that the war launched in March 2003 to oust Saddam was illegal, and it has also been gathering evidence of violations allegedly committed by coalition troops. Its verdict on Monday after its final session is expected to condemn both the United States and Britain. Yesterday Roy told the gathering: ""The evidence collated in this tribunal should ... be used by the International Criminal Court - whose jurisdiction the United States does not recognise - to try as war criminals George Bush, Tony Blair, John Howard, Silvio Berlusconi, and all those government officials, army generals, and corporate CEOs who participated in this war and now benefit from it." She added that the tribunal was "an act of resistance," "a defence mounted against one of the most cowardly wars ever fought in history." Hans von Sponeck, former director of the UN's oil-for-food programme for Iraq, told the gathering that the humanitarian programme "was totally irrelevant." "The UN handling of Iraq will be listed as a massive failure," von Sponeck said. "We didn't speak out despite knowing what the economic sanctions had created as a human disaster." He singled out the US and British governments for allegedly blocking projects that would, he said, have allowed more people to survive. read these 3 posts, digest them and Ill see you tomorrow for another lesson.
June 26, 200520 yr Author 'US A Bigger Killer Than Saddam' 6-25-5 ISTANBUL (AFP) -- The World Tribunal on Iraq (WTI), a grouping of NGOs and intellectuals opposed to the war in Iraq, yesterday accused the United States of causing more deaths in Iraq than ousted president Saddam Hussain. "With two wars and 13 years of criminal sanctions, the United States have been responsible for more deaths in Iraq than Saddam Hussain," Larry Everest, a journalist, told hundreds of anti-war activists gathered in Istanbul. Founded in 2003, the WTI is modelled on the 1960s Russell Tribunal, created by the British philosopher Bertrand Russell to denounce the war in Vietnam. It has held about 20 sessions so far in different locations around the world. A symbolic verdict was to be handed down on Monday by the 14 "jurors of conscience" - including the Indian novelist Arundhati Roy, winner of the 1997 Booker Prize for The God of Small Things. The tribunal has for the past two years been gathering what it says is evidence that the war launched in March 2003 to oust Saddam was illegal, and it has also been gathering evidence of violations allegedly committed by coalition troops. Its verdict on Monday after its final session is expected to condemn both the United States and Britain. Yesterday Roy told the gathering: ""The evidence collated in this tribunal should ... be used by the International Criminal Court - whose jurisdiction the United States does not recognise - to try as war criminals George Bush, Tony Blair, John Howard, Silvio Berlusconi, and all those government officials, army generals, and corporate CEOs who participated in this war and now benefit from it." She added that the tribunal was "an act of resistance," "a defence mounted against one of the most cowardly wars ever fought in history." Hans von Sponeck, former director of the UN's oil-for-food programme for Iraq, told the gathering that the humanitarian programme "was totally irrelevant." "The UN handling of Iraq will be listed as a massive failure," von Sponeck said. "We didn't speak out despite knowing what the economic sanctions had created as a human disaster." He singled out the US and British governments for allegedly blocking projects that would, he said, have allowed more people to survive. read these 3 posts, digest them and Ill see you tomorrow for another lesson. What three posts you blithering idiot? Ya got some links do ya? BTW - what do you suppose a grouping of NGOs and intellectuals opposed to the war in Iraq would say, eh?
June 26, 200520 yr 'US A Bigger Killer Than Saddam' 6-25-5 ISTANBUL (AFP) -- The World Tribunal on Iraq (WTI), a grouping of NGOs and intellectuals opposed to the war in Iraq, yesterday accused the United States of causing more deaths in Iraq than ousted president Saddam Hussain. "With two wars and 13 years of criminal sanctions, the United States have been responsible for more deaths in Iraq than Saddam Hussain," Larry Everest, a journalist, told hundreds of anti-war activists gathered in Istanbul. Founded in 2003, the WTI is modelled on the 1960s Russell Tribunal, created by the British philosopher Bertrand Russell to denounce the war in Vietnam. It has held about 20 sessions so far in different locations around the world. A symbolic verdict was to be handed down on Monday by the 14 "jurors of conscience" - including the Indian novelist Arundhati Roy, winner of the 1997 Booker Prize for The God of Small Things. The tribunal has for the past two years been gathering what it says is evidence that the war launched in March 2003 to oust Saddam was illegal, and it has also been gathering evidence of violations allegedly committed by coalition troops. Its verdict on Monday after its final session is expected to condemn both the United States and Britain. Yesterday Roy told the gathering: ""The evidence collated in this tribunal should ... be used by the International Criminal Court - whose jurisdiction the United States does not recognise - to try as war criminals George Bush, Tony Blair, John Howard, Silvio Berlusconi, and all those government officials, army generals, and corporate CEOs who participated in this war and now benefit from it." She added that the tribunal was "an act of resistance," "a defence mounted against one of the most cowardly wars ever fought in history." Hans von Sponeck, former director of the UN's oil-for-food programme for Iraq, told the gathering that the humanitarian programme "was totally irrelevant." "The UN handling of Iraq will be listed as a massive failure," von Sponeck said. "We didn't speak out despite knowing what the economic sanctions had created as a human disaster." He singled out the US and British governments for allegedly blocking projects that would, he said, have allowed more people to survive. read these 3 posts, digest them and Ill see you tomorrow for another lesson. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What three posts you blithering idiot? Ya got some links do ya? BTW - what do you suppose a grouping of NGOs and intellectuals opposed to the war in Iraq would say, eh? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ah - the three prior to your thought provoking intellectual retort It seem George has installed a camera in your living room
June 26, 200520 yr I do like to see such a spirit of peaceful debate! Seroiusly though lads, even though I am finding the process of following this thread interesting, at times, shouldn't we try to keep the heat out of it a bit.
June 26, 200520 yr I do like to see such a spirit of peaceful debate! Seroiusly though lads, even though I am finding the process of following this thread interesting, at times, shouldn't we try to keep the heat out of it a bit. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> what heat?
June 26, 200520 yr Author I do like to see such a spirit of peaceful debate! Seroiusly though lads, even though I am finding the process of following this thread interesting, at times, shouldn't we try to keep the heat out of it a bit. what heat? Tornado's right, p1p We always bash each other like this. Speaking of 'Bash' - where is that boy these days?
June 26, 200520 yr Who was responsible for all this carnage, eh? All another Conspiracy! <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
June 26, 200520 yr Further to the above. We can all copy and paste, to our heart's content, from Uber-Right or Left wing sources, but the thread will never go anywhere unless protagonists read, inwardly digest and coolly debate the points raised in each other's posts. The war is a fact, we know that and none of us could, unless they have a severely pathological psychosis, be in favour of it. War in and of itself is a wholly evil phenomenon. It is therefore pointless to keep dredging up more and more instances of atrocities committed by either side. We know they happen and, as stated above, cannot possibly condone them. Only subjects worthy of debate are the whys, wherefores and hows that will lead to a full understanding and acceptance of the situation from each side and will result in some comprehension of the reasons this mire was reached in the first place, and some manner in which the mess may be cleared up to everybody’s satisfaction.
June 26, 200520 yr Further to the above. We can all copy and paste, to our heart's content, from Uber-Right or Left wing sources, but the thread will never go anywhere unless protagonists read, inwardly digest and coolly debate the points raised in each other's posts.The war is a fact, we know that and none of us could, unless they have a severely pathological psychosis, be in favour of it. War in and of itself is a wholly evil phenomenon. It is therefore pointless to keep dredging up more and more instances of atrocities committed by either side. We know they happen and, as stated above, cannot possibly condone them. Only subjects worthy of debate are the whys, wherefores and hows that will lead to a full understanding and acceptance of the situation from each side and will result in some comprehension of the reasons this mire was reached in the first place, and some manner in which the mess may be cleared up to everybody’s satisfaction. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> well done p1p - now read it and digest Boon
June 26, 200520 yr Author Further to the above. We can all copy and paste, to our heart's content, from Uber-Right or Left wing sources, but the thread will never go anywhere unless protagonists read, inwardly digest and coolly debate the points raised in each other's posts.The war is a fact, we know that and none of us could, unless they have a severely pathological psychosis, be in favour of it. War in and of itself is a wholly evil phenomenon. It is therefore pointless to keep dredging up more and more instances of atrocities committed by either side. We know they happen and, as stated above, cannot possibly condone them. Only subjects worthy of debate are the whys, wherefores and hows that will lead to a full understanding and acceptance of the situation from each side and will result in some comprehension of the reasons this mire was reached in the first place, and some manner in which the mess may be cleared up to everybody’s satisfaction. I agree and we just have to make the best of it. Part of the problem in my mind is in today's world a lot of folks want instent gratification. We were all warned it was going to be a long, protracted war but people have real short memories these days. My other point is there is some good news coming out of Iraq that's not broadcast by MSM - by definition a left-leaning body. Keeping an open mind is essential.
June 26, 200520 yr Bush said he was optimistic about the training of Iraqi troops and moves toward democracy. "We're making good progress," the president said. -- Source, AP WireHmmm, sounds just like "Vietnamization", doesn't it?
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