Thailand Leads The World . . .

[kissdani]

How does the block look like on a TOT connection?

With true it is often a redirect and i end up here

http://58.97.5.29/court.html

or here:

http://58.97.5.29/www.capothai.org/

or here:

http://w3.mict.go.th/

Or i get a simple "Could not connect to remote server" error in the browser window but with the help some tool from the internet i know these pages are there and not offline.

The censors are also far from perfect, for example

the web adress www.vimeo.com is re-directed to http://58.97.5.29/annouce/court.html

but i can still access vimeo if i skip the www part. http://vimeo.com/ i can see without problems.

[tgw]

Anything less than a total free flow of information is not good for democracy and freedom in general. Took hold China up as some model - pathetic.

People who read are not incited to violence quickly. I guarantee all those thugs on the barricades cant read past the 6th grade level.

Hmmm, by "total free flow of information," I'm sure you mean 100% freedom of speech, no exceptions. In the US, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater or say certain words while boarding a plane at the security checkpoint. High ranking military officials cannot talk disparagingly of his/her civilian boss. And you certainly can't post on your website your intention of assassinating the President. Oh, it's safety and security you say? On US national television, there are seven words which cannot be spoken. Tobacco companies can't advertise freely on TV. Gambling websites are technically illegal, even if it originates outside the US. And of course, child pornography on the internet is illegal. And so on, and so on.

So tell me, what country in the world has "total free flow of information?" If you really believe what you're preaching, then there should NEVER be any exceptions.

Every one of these issues you raise are red herrings. Yelling "fire" in a theater or "I have a bomb" has absolutely nothing to do with the free flow of information. Anyone, can speak ill of their boss -and suffer the consequences. Assassination or even the conspiracy thereof (of anyone) has nothing whatsoever to do with "information" and are both criminal acts unto themselves in most countries.

Tobacco companies CAN NO LONGER ADVERTISE AFTER DECADES OF LYING TO THE PUBLIC, advertise because their product has been deemed a catastrophe for public health. What is the free speech argument here? The stuff should not even be allowed to be sold, only allowed to be grown.

Gambling websites are technically illegal, even if it originates outside the US. Again, not a free speech argument. Has zero to do with speech.

Any pornography deemed obscene by US court is illegal usually based on obscenity, not speech laws . There are a myriad of other laws that often make prurient pornography illegal as wel. Porn has been long argued as a speech issue and has had great success. Perhaps a better example. I do not see banning certain types of porn as a death knell to free speech. Unlike the Arts.

On US national television, there are seven words which cannot be spoken. This is your best argument. But this is a dictate by society, again - its the obscenity thing again. The obscenity crime overrides the speech issue.

<<Gambling websites are technically illegal, even if it originates outside the US.>>

Well, illegal in the US.

Doesn't say anything about other countries.

There are a bunch where it is legal.

From my point of view, the site is legal if the country it is based in allows online gambling, and it is the US customer Who commits an illegal act by using it.

You can't ask sites to know about all the local laws of other countries and check if their citizens follow them.

Think about it.

A government's jurisdiction is limited to its territory.

The US and some other countries tend to forget that.

So the only thing for the US government to do is to BLOCK that site, if they want to "protect" their citizens from it, or to prosecute people who visited that site from within the US, if they prefer their usual sanctimonious ways.

Based on some new regulations, the US and some European countries can also indict their citizens if they committed abroad a "crime" as defined in their local law.

A very worrying trend if you ask me.

What would happen to a US webmaster who transits through Riyadh or Dubai / Doha etc. as a known porn webmaster? or a notorious Islam critic?

I remind you of the cases of westerners who went through hel_l in Dubai airport, one of which who was jailed because they found on the outer sole of his shoe 0.0003 grams of weed. google it, you won't believe it.

So I think these "international law" cases are very very very dangerous terrain and a massive threat to individual liberty.

The only sensible thing to do is to censor, and to limit jurisdiction to anything that happens inside one's own borders.

They should only be honest about censorship and publish a list of all blocked sites and the reason why it was blocked.

Then about the free flow of information...

I used to have the same point of view that free speech and freedom of information are necessary for democracy.

The deliquescence of many westerns states made me think twice about democracy.

It seems that all the governments are unable of taking action. Some unpopular decisions must be made, but "unpopular" and "democratic" don't fit.

Do you want lower salaries?

Do you want less social security?

Do you want less pension?

etc.

The politicians can only take decisions which either attract no interest or such decisions which have at least 50% approval.

The result is that western countries are totally crippled, depending on economic booms to fill the coffers with money to finance "projects". Other than that, they can do nothing.

Freedom of speech and free flow of information was OK at the time of the founding fathers, where the only media were books and only educated people could read.

Today, we've got TV and internet, and most morons can read and use a computer.

The media are today not used to inform or to exchange information.

They are used #1 for the entertainment business, and #2 to influence people.

The media are used as a mob creation and coordination medium.

And I have a feeling that these mobs gave electoral victories in the past 60 years to whoever controlled them.

Remember how Hitler won. Yes, Hitler was an elected leader!

I think total freedom of speech does indeed lead to democracy, but as explained earlier, I don't think 1 man/woman = 1 vote is a good thing.

This encourages mobs, and I think the mobs are created and coordinated through the media.

So I think censorship of websites is not only the right thing to do incase websites propagate content that is illegal in the censoring country, but I also believe that censorship of content that can destabilize the political system of a country is justified.

I wish that they would introduce a form of "voting passport" in my home country.

I could imagine the voting qualification would be renewed every year based on the following criteria:

- having paid more taxes than received welfare during that year,

and

- in good standing

and

- without any criminal convictions, ever

and

(

- successfully finished school with a general diploma (A-levels, i.e. qualify for university)

or

- be a business owner

or

- having paid more than amount X of taxes in that year, make that an equivalent of the taxes an average salary would yield

)

...

I've also something to say about consumerism.

And about how a certain extent of social inequalities are absolutely necessary for a functioning society.

but this post is already too long...

[Berkshire]

Anything less than a total free flow of information is not good for democracy and freedom in general. Took hold China up as some model - pathetic.

People who read are not incited to violence quickly. I guarantee all those thugs on the barricades cant read past the 6th grade level.

Hmmm, by "total free flow of information," I'm sure you mean 100% freedom of speech, no exceptions. In the US, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater or say certain words while boarding a plane at the security checkpoint. High ranking military officials cannot talk disparagingly of his/her civilian boss. And you certainly can't post on your website your intention of assassinating the President. Oh, it's safety and security you say? On US national television, there are seven words which cannot be spoken. Tobacco companies can't advertise freely on TV. Gambling websites are technically illegal, even if it originates outside the US. And of course, child pornography on the internet is illegal. And so on, and so on.

So tell me, what country in the world has "total free flow of information?" If you really believe what you're preaching, then there should NEVER be any exceptions.

Every one of these issues you raise are red herrings.

BKKB, it really wasn't necessary for you to explain each one of the examples that I cited. I know the reasons why the laws are what they are. I could have given you even more examples. But you should have gotten my point. I doubt any country in the world today has "total free flow of information." Each country has their own reasons for censorship and as sovereign nations, they certainly have a right to restrict certain speech, internet or otherwise. Farangs in Thailand just love to find reasons to bash the Thai's (as the OP is obviously doing), but often times, they're being hypocritical. That's my point. So if I understand you, you're saying that censorship is ok if you agree with the premise and not ok if you don't agree. But if you don't agree, are you basing it on Thai "community standards," or your own? Obviously, Thai community standards should take precedence in Thailand, but the farangs in Thailand seem to forget that. Quite frequently, I might add.

[cdnvic]

Removed one post as the quotes were too mangled to tell who was saying what.

[DP25]

I find the idea of 113,000 sites difficult to believe. Pages, sure, but sites no way

[Bananaman]

I find the idea of 113,000 sites difficult to believe. Pages, sure, but sites no way

Why is that so difficult to believe? Porn sites alone number in their millions. If the censorship bureau just googled "sex" and worked their way through the list of results, it wouldn't take too long to reach that figure.

[DP25]

Why is that so difficult to believe? Porn sites alone number in their millions. If the censorship bureau just googled "sex" and worked their way through the list of results, it wouldn't take too long to reach that figure.

I live in Thailand and look at loads of porn. Something being blocked is incredibly rare. I can watch porn all day and nothing will be blocked.

[ukrules]

I live in Thailand and look at loads of porn. Something being blocked is incredibly rare. I can watch porn all day and nothing will be blocked.

That's right because unlike so many posters assumed they don't in fact block porn unless it is made in Thailand and features Thai's / shows Thailand in a bad light.

[phetaroi]

...Anyone who's been in Thailand for any length of time understands that there are laws related to lese majeste which will result in some manner of censorship. This, as well as restrictions on porn and insults to Buddhism. More recently, the political upheaval has resulted in some form of censorship to maintain public order.

My question is, so what? Does it really impact your life at all? ... But how does this censorship effect my life in Thailand? Nada. ...

You're right, and you're wrong.

You're right in the sense that I see nothing inherently wrong with blocking websites that are truly offensive to the monarchy or Buddhism. Or for that matter, national security.

You're wrong (in my view) about the pornography aspect from the perspective that in Thailand you can cheaply do almost any of the acts that you can't watch on porn. And yes, porn is illegal...which is fine with me...but everyone knows you can openly buy porn right in (for example) Pantip Plaza, where it is shoved in your face virtually every time you walk in there. But hush hush money prevails.

I think the bigger question is, is Thailand, as nation, so fragile that all this censorship of the net is necessary? Is Buddhism in Thailand so fragile an institution that an offensive website is actually going to harm it. The same question can be asked about other institutions around which web censorship exists.

I can only conclude that the answer is YES...things are that fragile. Over the past months I have seen so many references to, "Is Thailand a failed state?" I believe the answer to that question is NO. But, is it a healthy free state? Based on its own behaviors as a state and society, I believe the answer is NO. There is a superficiality about "all is well" in Thailand.

[bacchanal]

The OP is way out of date. Thaksin and his ICT Minister promised 1,000,000 websites shut down:

Information and Communication Technology (ICT) minister Sora-at Klinpratoom said that the new device will block more than 1 Million inappropriate websites, while other internet providers will also be requested to block those websites.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 02 Febuary 2006

[TAWP]

I live in Thailand and look at loads of porn. Something being blocked is incredibly rare. I can watch porn all day and nothing will be blocked.

That's right because unlike so many posters assumed they don't in fact block porn unless it is made in Thailand and features Thai's / shows Thailand in a bad light.

Well, I did a test (the gf wanted to watch) and many sites are blocked, for example p*rntube, redtube and many others with more explicit names.

[DeathbyDurian]

For those of you who think the blocked sites are only related to rebellion, lese majeste, public order etc...think again.

I hit blocked sites all the time, just the other day i was trying to download SOPcast to watch some TV online...BLOCKED!

www.sopcast.com now goes to w3.mict.go.th

What does downloading streaming TV software have to do with the government?

streamtorrent.com and tvants.com are also blocked - why? Because the RedShirt TV channel is broadcast on them.

So, because of that I'm having trouble finding software to watch the world cup.

[rixalex]

Each country has their own reasons for censorship and as sovereign nations, they certainly have a right to restrict certain speech, internet or otherwise. Farangs in Thailand just love to find reasons to bash the Thai's (as the OP is obviously doing), but often times, they're being hypocritical.

Actually in this case Berky i think those you say are eagar to bash Thais are in fact more particularly eagar to bash the current Thai authorities. Check out their posting history and you will find many of them are red sympathisers, keen to find anything they can find that supposedly reinforces their opinion that we are living under an oppressive dictatorial regime.

[Mario2008]

1 post deleted for discussion/linking to a proxy, which is not allowed per forum rules.

[cdnvic]

One off topic Reds vs Yellows (yawn) argument was removed.

[PingManDan]

Thailand recently became the first country in the world to block or blacklist over 100,000 websites. Up to 113,000 and more being added every day. According to the Freedom Against Press Censorship group FACT Thailand. ( Whose site you wont be able to see if you are in Thailand as it has been blocked.)

The Hub of Censorship.

Yes it is all done by our fully democratic PM & political party, LOL and they call themselves domocratic what a joke, dictatorship is more like it

[kissdani]

^^

??? My argument was that it is wrong to label any criticism of the censorship as 'Thai bashing' or as 'red shirt argument'.

I didn't say anything about yellow.

Each country has their own reasons for censorship and as sovereign nations, they certainly have a right to restrict certain speech, internet or otherwise. Farangs in Thailand just love to find reasons to bash the Thai's (as the OP is obviously doing), but often times, they're being hypocritical.

Actually in this case Berky i think those you say are eagar to bash Thais are in fact more particularly eagar to bash the current Thai authorities. Check out their posting history and you will find many of them are red sympathisers, keen to find anything they can find that supposedly reinforces their opinion that we are living under an oppressive dictatorial regime.

Criticism of the censorship comes from many sites and also from Thai people and not only Farangs on TFV.

At the both of you - Please explain who this people can be labeled as Thai basher or as 'Red Shirts':

The Thai Journalists Association and Thailand Cable TV Association Thursday issued a joint statement to condemn the government's blockade of the PTV's satellite transmission and the closure of www.prachatai.com. ...

1. The transmission blockade of PTV Station and the blockade of access to the website violated Article 45 of the 2007 Constitution. The article states in part as "The closure of a newspaper or other mass media business in deprivation of the liberty under this section shall not be made".

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/04/08/politics/2-media-bodies-condemn-blackout-of-PTV-clousure-of-30126739.html

Statement from Former Thai Senators (2000-2006)*

“Demanding the government to stop blocking media channels and using the state-run media to present one-sided information on the crackdown of the demonstration on April 10, 2010” ...

Such media control by the Government and concerned agencies (especially the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situations (CRES), the Royal Thai Army, the Public Relations Department, TV channel 11 (NBT), TV channel 3, 5, 7, 9 and Thai PBS), is a serious violation of people’s basic rights under the Constitution, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights.

http://tufacultysenate.ning.com/profiles/blogs/statement-from-former-thai

Thai Netizen Network and Reporters Without Borders

Joint statement on the further censorship of websites and media under Emergency Decree. ...

For the above reasons, we urge the government to cease all Internet censorship immediately. By carrying on censorship under the Emergency Decree and not under the libel law or the Computer Crime Act, the government is guilty of violating Thai constitution and Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

http://en.rsf.org/thailand-thai-netizen-network-s-statement-27-04-2010,37164.html

Ever been on the Prachatai website? Is taht child porn or are that terrorists or red shirts?

Compare the two websites below, one is blocked because of terrorists, the other one is still accessible. (at my bangkok TRUE connection, one url is redirected to a "has been blocked by MICT" announcement)

My guess is both sites don't are much different content wise, so there is a change to judge for yourself.

http://vimeo.com/ compare with http://www.vimeo.com/

[kissdani]

Well the FACT website is coming through loud and proud here in Kanchanaburi so maybe the blocks are not in place today.

Not in BKK, Thong Lo, TOT

Today not, but few days ago and weeks before it was one of the blocked websites. TRUE, Bangkok, Sathorn.

Censorship is maybe not so worse like in Saudi-Arabia, but this not an excuse for the action of the MICT.

By 'not' I meant that it was *not* accessible. It is blocked from the office that uses TOT.

As for today the situation is back to 'normal'. That means the FACT website is blocked again and TRUE redirects me to the CAPO announcement.

[wayfarer108]

You don't need to look as far afield as China or the Middle East. Most of Thailand's immediate neighbors, incl Vietnam, Laos and Malaysia, censor the Internet far more than Thailand does. Myanmar doesn't even allow web surfing except via their own gov't-approved websites. In any of these countries FACT would not just be blocked; the owners/operators would be imprisoned.

So I'm sorry, FACT, you have your facts wrong. Trying to pump up donations no doubt

[bentrein]

My international internet connection - True, Bang Phli, Samut Prakarn - has been extremely slow, or non existent for the past couple of days. Yesterday, when I called them there was a recorded message before I talked to the call-center-incompetent. This message said:

"Due to the state of emergency, you might not be able to use high-speed internet."

Followed by the standard apology. Has anyone else heard this? Noticed this? Any website other than speedtest.net, or Thai websites, basically don't work. Other services - like Skype or Dropbox - do work, but opening the dropbox website takes 20 minutes (I'm on a 5Mbit connection).

Has the Thai government really resorted to cutting off the internet as a (almost) whole???

[canuckamuck]

I wonder how many websites you can access in North Korea?