Use Of Money By Monks And Novices

[fabianfred]

A Thai monk in the temple where I am ordained (as a novice for now..but will become a monk before pansa) has an account on Facebook and asked this question about the use of money by monks and novices...considering that it is against the ten precepts and 227 rules of a monk....

basically he is asking for opinions about it...

my own is this....

Remembering the human failing of always taking our own side and finding reasons to justify our decision to bend certain rules, perhaps because of our laziness when those rules are difficult to live by.

A monk has two major enemies, women and money, and both can cause him to fall without careful handling of them, or complete avoidance.

Modern technology like books, the internet and photocopiers didn't exist in the Buddha's time, but does that mean we shouldn't make use of them?

If we do allow ourselves to use them then they require the use of money to buy, maintain and supply. It is not convenient to continually call upon lay people to run about trying to supply our needs.

Money is not important, but certainly necessary in modern times.Monks and novices have minor expenses such as food and travel when studying away from their home temples.

Most temples have vehicles donated by lay followers, but these are mainly for the use of the abbot and monks on their duties, so the other monks and novices are often required to use public transport when going about their business.

If a monk wishes to keep strictly to the rules about money then he will probably prefer to stay in a forest temple, but for those in town or city temples and whose daily duties include teaching and providing services to the lay community, then handling money can hardly be avoided.

It is not a monk's right to be rich, that is for lay people..... a monk should be poor.

A personal bank account is not something a monk should have.

Some monks save money, fully intending to disrobe and lead a lay life when they have accumulated enough. Some save ecause they are uncertain if they will be able to stay in the robes for long and want something to get them started in lay life if they should happen to disrobe.

In my opinion neither of these are correct motives and display a wrong attitude to being ordained.

Remembering that intention is the most important thing.

It is possible to handle money with only the desire to use it where necessary and to pass it on to those in need, not to save and generate personal riches.

Even Arahants accept gifts of money, fully intending to use it for those in need, acting as conduits to pass it from those who desire to make merit to those it can help.

Edited July 6, 2010 by camerata
Thai script removed as per forum rules. The one-line summary covers it.

[camerata]

One post has been deleted. If you haven't anything other than personal criticism of another member to offer, don't bother posting here.

[glegolo]

A Thai monk in the temple where I am ordained (as a novice for now..but will become a monk before pansa) has an account on Facebook and asked this question about the use of money by monks and novices...considering that it is against the ten precepts and 227 rules of a monk....

basically he is asking for opinions about it...

my own is this....

Remembering the human failing of always taking our own side and finding reasons to justify our decision to bend certain rules, perhaps because of our laziness when those rules are difficult to live by.

A monk has two major enemies, women and money, and both can cause him to fall without careful handling of them, or complete avoidance.

Modern technology like books, the internet and photocopiers didn't exist in the Buddha's time, but does that mean we shouldn't make use of them?

If we do allow ourselves to use them then they require the use of money to buy, maintain and supply. It is not convenient to continually call upon lay people to run about trying to supply our needs.

Money is not important, but certainly necessary in modern times.Monks and novices have minor expenses such as food and travel when studying away from their home temples.

Most temples have vehicles donated by lay followers, but these are mainly for the use of the abbot and monks on their duties, so the other monks and novices are often required to use public transport when going about their business.

If a monk wishes to keep strictly to the rules about money then he will probably prefer to stay in a forest temple, but for those in town or city temples and whose daily duties include teaching and providing services to the lay community, then handling money can hardly be avoided.

It is not a monk's right to be rich, that is for lay people..... a monk should be poor.

A personal bank account is not something a monk should have.

Some monks save money, fully intending to disrobe and lead a lay life when they have accumulated enough. Some save ecause they are uncertain if they will be able to stay in the robes for long and want something to get them started in lay life if they should happen to disrobe.

In my opinion neither of these are correct motives and display a wrong attitude to being ordained.

Remembering that intention is the most important thing.

It is possible to handle money with only the desire to use it where necessary and to pass it on to those in need, not to save and generate personal riches.

Even Arahants accept gifts of money, fully intending to use it for those in need, acting as conduits to pass it from those who desire to make merit to those it can help.

Is it possible to get an translation of the Thai-text included above. I think that most of us have a hard time to understand written thai...

Thanks

Glegolo

Edited July 6, 2010 by camerata
Thai script removed as per forum rules.

[phetaroi]

...A monk has two major enemies, women and money, and both can cause him to fall without careful handling of them, or complete avoidance.

Modern technology like books, the internet and photocopiers didn't exist in the Buddha's time, but does that mean we shouldn't make use of them?

If we do allow ourselves to use them then they require the use of money to buy, maintain and supply. It is not convenient to continually call upon lay people to run about trying to supply our needs.

Money is not important, but certainly necessary in modern times.Monks and novices have minor expenses such as food and travel when studying away from their home temples.

...

It is not a monk's right to be rich, that is for lay people..... a monk should be poor.

...

A personal bank account is not something a monk should have.

Some monks save money, fully intending to disrobe and lead a lay life when they have accumulated enough. Some save ecause they are uncertain if they will be able to stay in the robes for long and want something to get them started in lay life if they should happen to disrobe.

In my opinion neither of these are correct motives and display a wrong attitude to being ordained.

Remembering that intention is the most important thing.

...

You bring up some very interesting issues, and -- as usual -- you and I have very different opinions.

For example, when you say, "A monk has two major enemies, women and money...." No. Women are not an enemy of monks, and I feel it is rather demeaning to say that about women, in general. Nor is money an enemy. If there is an enemy, it is the monk's personal weakness.

The issue of money and possessions is a difficult one. We often hear that the number of men ordaining as monks is in sharp decline (although I have also heard this disputed). I have often spoken about the evolution of worldly life, and the way in which people lived 2,000+ years ago and today are vastly different. Yet, we seem to think monks should live much as they did over 2,000 years ago. I'm not sure that's reasonable in today's world. I often think of the rules that we, as Catholics, lived under back in the 1950s and 1960s. For example, a woman had to wear something on her head before entering a Catholic church. Why? Of what importance was it? Tradition? That has now been dropped. We could not eat meat on Fridays, so my family would often go to a fish fry. No real sacrifice...my family love eating fish...and, not all Catholics in all countries even had the restriction. Again, a tradition that has now been dropped. My grandmother was upset when they dropped Latin masses, even though she couldn't understand a single word of Latin. A tradition that has mostly been dropped. And so, one thing I would ask is -- isn't it time for the Sangha to reexamine traditions and somewhat modernize the expectations for monks? What is REALLY important?

[IMA_FARANG]

The issue of money for monks is very controversial I'm sure. I happen to be of a different tradition and practice of buddhisim. But each person has to have their own values and opinion of what is the correct way to practice. The rule I learned is; censure yourself first, never others.

Anyhow let me give you a well known story as an example .

Long ago, in Japan, a well-known monk was a very exceptional artist. He painted wonderful rural scenes, showing the everyday life of the people of that time. His paintings were highly valued, and when he agreed to paint one of them, he always charged the highest price his clients would agree to pay.

Once he was asked by a Geisha, a woman who danced and sang for men's pleasure, to paint a rural village scene on her petticoats. She was quite critical of him for agreeing to paint this scene on her petticoats. "You are a monk",she said, "but you agree to take this demeaning job. You ask me for the highest fee for your painiting. You seem to love only money."

When other people heard of what the monk had done they were extemely critical of him...and they also criticised him

for what they considered his love of money. The monk however, never answered their criticisims...he remained silent.

After some time, when the monk had earned enough money from his paintings, he stopped painting any longer. He went and lived in a small hut in a remote village. He spent all his last years in study and contemplation.

After he had died, people were amazed to find out he had no money left. They discovered he had spent all the money he had earned from his paintings on 3 things. They were:

1. The village he was born in was very poor. He had spent much of his money on starting a school and a hospital in the village to aid the villagers.

2. The road to that village went over a mountain. The road was very steep and dangerous...many travelers were hurt of killed on that road. The monk had used part of his money to pay for repairs and work on that road to make it safer for travelers on it.

3. Because his home village was so poor, there was no Buddhist temple near by. Whatever money the monk had left he used to start a Buddhist temple in his home village.

When people discovered these things, they understood why the monk had charged such a high fee for his paintings. All criticisim of his "love of money" stopped.

Edited July 6, 2010 by IMA_FARANG

[rockyysdt]

You bring up some very interesting issues, and -- as usual -- you and I have very different opinions.

For example, when you say, "A monk has two major enemies, women and money...." No. Women are not an enemy of monks, and I feel it is rather demeaning to say that about women, in general. Nor is money an enemy. If there is an enemy, it is the monk's personal weakness.

I think it's just a poor choice of words rather than anything to do with following customs blindly.

I suspect what was meant by "A monk has two major enemies, women and money...." is that money & women are major temptations.

A question l would ask is, "Did the Buddha forbid ordained Monks from handling money?"

THE Buddha said: "All acts of living creatures become bad by ten things, and by avoiding the ten things they become good. There are three evils of the body, four evils of the tongue, and three evils of the mind.

"The evils of the body are, murder, theft, and

adultery

; of the tongue, lying, slander, abuse, and idle talk; of the mind,

covetousness

, hatred, and error.

"I exhort you to avoid the ten evils: 1. Kill not, but have regard for life. 2. Steal not, neither do ye rob; but help everybody to be master of the fruits of his labor. 3.

Abstain from impurity, and lead a life of chastity.

4. Lie not, but be truthful. Speak the truth with discretion, fearlessly and in a loving heart. 5. Invent not evil reports, neither do ye repeat them. Carp not, but look for the good sides of your fellow-beings, so that ye may with sincerity defend them against their enemies. 6. Swear not, but speak decently and with dignity. 7. Waste not the time with gossip, but speak to the purpose or keep silence. 8.

Covet not

, nor envy, but rejoice at the fortunes of other people. 9. Cleanse your heart of malice and cherish no hatred, not even against your enemies; but embrace all living beings with kindness. 10. Free your mind of ignorance and be anxious to learn the truth, especially in the one thing that is needful, lest you fall a prey either to skepticism or to errors. Skepticism will make you indifferent and errors will lead you astray, so that you shall not find the noble path that leads to life eternal."

The evils the Buddha spoke about certainly confirm that women constitute a major temptation.

On money this is how the Buddha felt.

'Monks, there are these four stains because of which the sun and moon glow not, shine not, blaze not. What are these four? Rain clouds... snow clouds... smoke and dust... and an eclipse. Even so, monks, there are these four stains because of which monks and priests glow not, shine not, blaze not. What are these four? Drinking alcohol... indulging in sexual intercourse... accepting gold or money... obtaining one's requisites through a wrong mode of livelihood. These are the four stains, monks, because of which monks and priests glow not, shine not, blaze not.' [3]

'Whoever agrees to gold or money, headman, also agrees to the five strands of sensual pleasure, and whoever agrees to the five strands of sensual pleasure, headman, you may take it for certain that this is not the way of a recluse, that this is not the way of a Buddhist monk.'[4]

Perhaps the Buddha was suggesting that handling money would seriously affect a Monks path.

I feel a monks path is far more important than any inconvenience associated with a money ban.

Facebook for many is marvelous but to a Buddhist Monk could be described as "pure unadulterated ego".

Edited July 6, 2010 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

To add more to this discussion.....

Often lay people add a few coins into the alms bowl along with any food..... and some are glad to get the opportunity to give alms by meeting monks but are unable to give food since the meeting was unplanned, so they give a twenty baht note instead..... are they wrong to do this and careating bad karma for themselves???

Acccording to the pattimokha a monk should refuse money and if he finds any in his bowl should go outside the temple grounds and tip it onto the floor...

[harrry]

To add more to this discussion.....

Often lay people add a few coins into the alms bowl along with any food..... and some are glad to get the opportunity to give alms by meeting monks but are unable to give food since the meeting was unplanned, so they give a twenty baht note instead..... are they wrong to do this and careating bad karma for themselves???

Acccording to the pattimokha a monk should refuse money and if he finds any in his bowl should go outside the temple grounds and tip it onto the floor...

My view is that there should be no way this creates bad karma for the giver. As far as disposing of it I do not know. I would think that it may be a better use for the monk to use the money to give to those in need or give it to the temple for its needs.

I do have concerns when I see monks going into shops and buying the latest model mobile phone as I have seen here.

[jts-khorat]

To add more to this discussion.....

Often lay people add a few coins into the alms bowl along with any food..... and some are glad to get the opportunity to give alms by meeting monks but are unable to give food since the meeting was unplanned, so they give a twenty baht note instead..... are they wrong to do this and careating bad karma for themselves???

Acccording to the pattimokha a monk should refuse money and if he finds any in his bowl should go outside the temple grounds and tip it onto the floor...

My view is that there should be no way this creates bad karma for the giver. As far as disposing of it I do not know. I would think that it may be a better use for the monk to use the money to give to those in need or give it to the temple for its needs.

I do have concerns when I see monks going into shops and buying the latest model mobile phone as I have seen here.

I believe a very important part of this discussion should be intention.

[phetaroi]

I believe a very important part of this discussion should be intention.

Excellent point.

[Xangsamhua]

Monks of the Santi Asoke movement will categorically not accept money and will explain the reasons to the well-intended layperson. Any monies donated to Santi Asoke centres must be passed through the centre office, and the centre will not accept donations until a donor has made at least seven visits as an indicator of sincerity and good intent.

I think this is good practice. There are times when a monk or nun will need to handle money, e.g. when travelling, especially abroad; however, they can access this money without accepting direct donations. That practice has led in the past to abuses and, although in many or most cases the practice has been benign and has led to good results, people, even ordained persons, can be tempted to misuse the money and set off on a path that is harmful to themselves or others.

[rockyysdt]

Monks of the Santi Asoke movement will categorically not accept money and will explain the reasons to the well-intended layperson. Any monies donated to Santi Asoke centres must be passed through the centre office, and the centre will not accept donations until a donor has made at least seven visits as an indicator of sincerity and good intent.

I think this is good practice. There are times when a monk or nun will need to handle money, e.g. when travelling, especially abroad; however, they can access this money without accepting direct donations. That practice has led in the past to abuses and, although in many or most cases the practice has been benign and has led to good results, people, even ordained persons, can be tempted to misuse the money and set off on a path that is harmful to themselves or others.

To me, ordaining as a Buddhist Monk is a very serious business.

Whichever way you look at it, succeeding in ones goals as a Buddhist is vastly more important than any attachment to convenience.

If you analyse the 227 precepts, money handling would be the least of the novice Monks concerns.

It's good to hear of the Monks of the Santi Asoke movement taking their commitments seriously.

Edited July 8, 2010 by rockyysdt

[phetaroi]

It seems to me that we are -- quite naturally -- asking the question on a religious platform.

Let's ask the question from a different perspective.

Leave religion out of it for the sake of analysis. Take today's world. Take the way we expect monks to live in today's world. Is it a sustainable system?

I think the answer is no.

[harrry]

It seems to me that we are -- quite naturally -- asking the question on a religious platform.

Let's ask the question from a different perspective.

Leave religion out of it for the sake of analysis. Take today's world. Take the way we expect monks to live in today's world. Is it a sustainable system?

I think the answer is no.

Are monks expected to live as in todays world with electronics and airlines or in a world which does not have a need of these to fullfil their needs?

[fabianfred]

just as in business and much of modern life communications are very important. that is why everyone has a mobile phone. Monks involved in their duties to the lay people, and teaching whether it is adults, schoolkids or novices etc. also need the benefits given my modern communcation technology.

Those who wish to concentrate upon their own practice and avoid such distractions will be happier in forest temples etc. where they can easily do without these things.

But to say all monks must do this or do that is too much of a broad-brush and cannot work.

[eggomaniac]

This is not to decry pure Buddhism, or clean monks, but my Thai brother in laws told me it was 'common knowledge' that 'some' monks have wigs and civies and will go out at night to 'party', using the money they had collected.

Also, I have been told that during Thai weddings 7 envelopes of money are given to the monks, something similar at funerals.

Asking HER. "What to the monks do with the money they collect?"

HER, "What they want, up to them."

me, "Well what do they buy?"

HER "Buy shampoo, buy toothpaste, when they sick medicine, go drink."

me, "Drink, you mean alcohol?'

HER, " The young monks, yes."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From what I gather, from inlaws, some monks choose that way as a business decision, maybe others have similar anecdotes? [same as ladyboys]

These brother in laws grew up with these guys, played with them in schoolyards from childhood. They KNOW these people. [sE NST]

-------------------------------

me, Are the monks at Wat Vichain Theravaden or Mahayan?

HER [whose dad was a school principal across the street from the Wat] "I don't know. normal monks."

--------------------

me "Why do Thais give money to monks?"

HER, "so the monks can use money, they no work... like the monks go to the wedding, funeral, the people give money, because that is their job, ..... They Job... don't worry about this."

me 'I'm not 'worrying' some farangs are just curious."

me, "I don't ask why the monks accept the money, why do the people GIVE it?' HER for living...

HER, 'for Cullture, have to give... monks come pray , 1 hour, 2 hour, have to give food, have to give presents, money,,, not free, it their job."

<<<< Well that is one Thais 'thoughts' on the Subject, middle class family, teachers, lawyers, police, furniture store owners....

[jts-khorat]

just as in business and much of modern life communications are very important. that is why everyone has a mobile phone. Monks involved in their duties to the lay people, and teaching whether it is adults, schoolkids or novices etc. also need the benefits given my modern communcation technology.

You are talking about monks connected to a temple. They obviously have lay people to assist with tasks difficult or forbidden to monks.

Not handling money personally does not mean that monks must live without the *tools* of modern life to spread their teaching or to serve the Sangha.

In this sense, nothing has changed since the time of the Buddha.

[Brucenkhamen]

A monk handling or controlling money is clearly against the vinaya, and I don't see why a monk should expect alms if he breaks this rule.

If a monk has money that has been set aside for him as a monk, or that is his should he disrobe then he can appoint a steward to control it for him. I guess this is not the norm in village wats in thailand but I understand that this is what is expected in places like Wat Pah Nanachat. I don't see any excuse for hadling money as it's easily avoided, I guess the problem arises when it's commonplace in some wats then the support structures such as stewards to help monks avoid breaking the precept aren't there.

[khaowong1]

FR, you sure opened a can of worms on this one. I know very few temples where monks don't have any money in their possesion. What I believe and don't believe has no bearing on the issue. But here at my temple, the money we recieve, and we recieve very little money, on our pindabot rounds, goes to the 3 dek wats who live at our temple and who go with us every morning. I'm talking maybe, maybe 40 or 50 baht a day, maybe. Most days, nothing. As for myself, I don't accept money donations. Do I think it's ok to accept money? Do I think it's ok to possess money? I try and follow the Buddha's advice and look at my own defilements, not anyone else's. That job is hard enough. The rules laid down over 2000 years ago are out of date with the times, but I understand why they were put in place and try and follow them anyway.. Thank you...

[Bluetongue]

My observations. 2 years ago driving to Phuket, the wife asleep, and on one of those fast sweeping bends with a traffic light, I was doing about 140 in the Jazz and a portly monk was waving frantically at me, I thought he was angry or warning me to slow down so I dabbed the brakes and the missus woke up and looked over her shoulder and got me to stop and reverse back about half a kilometre. He gets in the front seat, she gets in the back, and he asks us to take him to that temple they built for the unknown Tsunami victims at the top end of the island. He says that he and 5 other monks from our home province Chanatburi had decided to make a pilgrimage there going by 6 different ways and he had had to get off the bus because he didn't have enough money to go all the way, (maybe another 20ks). Off we go and he pulls out two coloured wristbands one of which he affixes to my wrist and also two small amulets. The missus starts fishing in her handbag and I realsie he has asked for a donation. She had about 1500 in her purse and my wallet had about 1000 in it. She gives him 500 plus, I cant exactly remember but I did understand enough Thai to know that he said not enough, she gave him more making the total donation well over 1000 and he still said not enough, she said we had no more. He accepted that without question but I wondered whether he wasn't where we picked him up because thats where his previous ride turned off and not the bus.

3 months ago on a secondary road near Phichit with 3 adults and 3 kids in the Vigo 2 monks hailed me over, they got in the back and the missus made one of the kids ride with them. They wanted to turn off a bit up the road in a direction that I didn't want to go, but the missus got the map out and it seemd like not too far out of our way so off we go. I said to her I bet they ask for money. Her and her sister both heaped scorn on me. Anyway banging on the window to stop and the kid in the back says he wants to buy water, so the missus gives the kid 100 baht and he runs to a roadside stall and buys the 6 bottles in a plastic bag. Then about 10 k further up the road they wanted to get out, no sign of a wat but I think a forest wat was not far away, sure enough they asked for money and the missus gave them 200 more for food to eat.

Lastly at my local wat there is an abbott and 3/4 or 5 monks and I have seen fairly large sums of money collected, counted, and handed over to the abbott. I dont know what he does with it, presumably the temple has expenses I know they always seem to be building something. Also he has no-one to help him in any sort of clerical way as I have seen in larger wats. I have attended numerous weddings, funerals, tambon bahns and often the monks are handed an envelope. I know one of them quite well, and he wanted to buy a stereo so I took him into town, he handed me the money outside the shop and I conducted the transaction on his behalf. I am not sure that any of the monks at least have much understanding of the teachings of the Buddha although I am pretty sure the abbott does. The point I am trying to make is that there seems to be many monks who go about their lives with money as a part of it. Many Thai people seem to me to be more concerned with the correctness of the process of ritual and the chanting rather than adhering to the prescribed behaviour, (I would make this observation about the school system also). So as the practice of having money seems to be growing, and as the practice does not seem to bother the largest portion of the congregation should we be cynical or pragmatic about it, I go for pragmatic ususally as I often dont know the full story

[fabianfred]

I would certainly say that it is wrong for monks to ask for money.

I am ordained in a temple which doesn't forbid the handling of money so there are no lay people who are used as money handlers instead of monks. there are alaso many novices and it has a school for monks and novices too so we get many from other temples in to study. There is a resturant to provide meals for the novices who come from other temples so they have to buy coupons for that.

[sabaijai]

I was just re-reading this thread, and a question occurred to me. Can/do Thai monks have bank accounts? I realise that temples, temple committees, trustees and perhaps even abbots have accounts, I'm just wondering about average monks, among those that do handle money.

I've known many monks in Thailand, but never thought to ask.

[Joop50]

Dear Fabian,

You write: "A monk has two major enemies, women and money, and both can cause him to fall without careful handling of them, or complete avoidance."

Not only it is not true, because when you can speak of an enemy of the monk, it will be his mind.

It is also very dangerous to think this way, with respect to woman as we can see in several religions.

[Gladiator]

My observations. 2 years ago driving to Phuket, the wife asleep, and on one of those fast sweeping bends with a traffic light, I was doing about 140 in the Jazz and a portly monk was waving frantically at me, I thought he was angry or warning me to slow down so I dabbed the brakes and the missus woke up and looked over her shoulder and got me to stop and reverse back about half a kilometre. He gets in the front seat, she gets in the back, and he asks us to take him to that temple they built for the unknown Tsunami victims at the top end of the island. He says that he and 5 other monks from our home province Chanatburi had decided to make a pilgrimage there going by 6 different ways and he had had to get off the bus because he didn't have enough money to go all the way, (maybe another 20ks). Off we go and he pulls out two coloured wristbands one of which he affixes to my wrist and also two small amulets. The missus starts fishing in her handbag and I realsie he has asked for a donation. She had about 1500 in her purse and my wallet had about 1000 in it. She gives him 500 plus, I cant exactly remember but I did understand enough Thai to know that he said not enough, she gave him more making the total donation well over 1000 and he still said not enough, she said we had no more. He accepted that without question but I wondered whether he wasn't where we picked him up because thats where his previous ride turned off and not the bus.

3 months ago on a secondary road near Phichit with 3 adults and 3 kids in the Vigo 2 monks hailed me over, they got in the back and the missus made one of the kids ride with them. They wanted to turn off a bit up the road in a direction that I didn't want to go, but the missus got the map out and it seemd like not too far out of our way so off we go. I said to her I bet they ask for money. Her and her sister both heaped scorn on me. Anyway banging on the window to stop and the kid in the back says he wants to buy water, so the missus gives the kid 100 baht and he runs to a roadside stall and buys the 6 bottles in a plastic bag. Then about 10 k further up the road they wanted to get out, no sign of a wat but I think a forest wat was not far away, sure enough they asked for money and the missus gave them 200 more for food to eat.

Lastly at my local wat there is an abbott and 3/4 or 5 monks and I have seen fairly large sums of money collected, counted, and handed over to the abbott. I dont know what he does with it, presumably the temple has expenses I know they always seem to be building something. Also he has no-one to help him in any sort of clerical way as I have seen in larger wats. I have attended numerous weddings, funerals, tambon bahns and often the monks are handed an envelope. I know one of them quite well, and he wanted to buy a stereo so I took him into town, he handed me the money outside the shop and I conducted the transaction on his behalf. I am not sure that any of the monks at least have much understanding of the teachings of the Buddha although I am pretty sure the abbott does. The point I am trying to make is that there seems to be many monks who go about their lives with money as a part of it. Many Thai people seem to me to be more concerned with the correctness of the process of ritual and the chanting rather than adhering to the prescribed behaviour, (I would make this observation about the school system also). So as the practice of having money seems to be growing, and as the practice does not seem to bother the largest portion of the congregation should we be cynical or pragmatic about it, I go for pragmatic ususally as I often dont know the full story

A few years ago, I was driving from Chiang Mai, to visit my Mum, who lived some 18 KM outside of town. The weather was abysmal and it was raining 'cats and dogs'. Three Monks were walking along the canal road, but, despite the volume of traffic - no one pulled over to offer them a lift. 'Okay - why not' and I pulled up. Their feet did not touch the ground in getting into the pick-up.. The head Monk asked me where I was going. I replied to visit my Mum who lived a few kilometres down the road. Silence ensued for a few minutes.

I asked - 'Where are you going?' He replied to Mae Hong Song, nearly 200 kilometres away. "Oh...."

The kilometres dragged on and eventually, we reached the market town of Sa Patong. The monks indicated for me to pull over as they wished to go to the bus station. They blessed me and attached a plastic sai-sin to my wrist. Then, they asked for the bus fare to Mae Hong Song. Not entirely sure of what to do, I pulled out my wallet, which only had 500 baht in, and gave it to them. Off, they went into the rain.

When I returned to my office, the girls that I worked with, were astounded and angry and said that Monks should never ask for money.

The epilogue to this story, is that a few years later, my wife and I were driving south to Rayong. As we came around the bend, we encountered a monk walking a long side of the road. My wife asked me to stop and asked the Monk where he was going. 'To Khon Kaen', he replied. She appologized profusely and advised him that we going in another direction. She tuned to me and asked for 300 Baht, to give to him, and bent down so that he could bless her. Off we drove.

When we drove a round the next bend, there in a single file - stretched out, were presumably, the rest of the group of Monks travelling to Khon Kaen. My wife pointed out the scenery on the other side of the road, as we drove by.

[bankei]

I don't think there is anything evil about money or women. Its what you do with them that may lead to problems.

Handling money is not such a bad thing. I know of Dhammayut monks who pride themselves on not handling money, but they may have bank accounts and money in envelopes so that they don't physically touch it. Its the same thing to me.

Don't forget Buddhism is the middle way betwen extremes. The monks in the lineage of Achan Chah who also pride themselves on their avoidance of money to the extent they are attached to their views. They would not even touch the bag of a non Chah monk fearing it had money inside - this is an extreme view in my opinion. (They also fly around the world for various meetings, memorial days, birthdays etc at great expense - but they don't 'handle' the money). At the other end of the extreme are monks who have great savings or treat the monkhood as a job. This is also an extreme to be avoided.

Also note that the Buddha said, in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, that the minor rules could be abolished after his death. handling money, or gold and silver, is a minor rule.

So I think it doesn't really hurt for a money to touch money or to use money in a minor way. But it would be wrong to save money, or for a preceptor to 'charge' 3,000B per ordination ceremony (per person!). Monks shouldn't ask for money and if they do you should not give them but avoid them I think.

[Brucenkhamen]

Not only it is not true, because when you can speak of an enemy of the monk, it will be his mind.

This may seem like splitting hairs but is a very important point. We are in the process of understanding that we can't blame external things and we must understand the mind, and that our problems come from our own mind, in order to free the mind.

Of course one helpful thing in this process is renunciation of things that have the strongest hold on us, women and money for example.

[rockyysdt]

Not only it is not true, because when you can speak of an enemy of the monk, it will be his mind.

This may seem like splitting hairs but is a very important point. We are in the process of understanding that we can't blame external things and we must understand the mind, and that our problems come from our own mind, in order to free the mind.

Of course one helpful thing in this process is renunciation of things that have the strongest hold on us, women and money for example.

Precisely, and despite those proclaiming confidence to handle money without succumbing to temptation, the Buddha knew better when he said: 'Whoever agrees to gold or money, headman, also agrees to the five strands of sensual pleasure, and whoever agrees to the five strands of sensual pleasure, headman, you may take it for certain that this is not the way of a recluse, that this is not the way of a Buddhist monk.'

One of the reasons why enlightenment is rare and difficult is due to how our mind (ego) has such a subtle hold over us. Once you decide you want something the mind will find the excuses.

Edited August 28, 2010 by rockyysdt

[Joop50]

Another view on this topic can be: When we look at a certain situation, for instance a monk taking money and spend it for himself, be aware of things are not always what or how they look like.

A second point is, we must not forget a monk is nothing else than a student and the property of a student is, he or she is learning.

And isn't it most of the the time our own judgement wich muddle our view?

Edited August 28, 2010 by Joop50