Car Oil Filter For Big Bike?

[thaicbr]

"Have an open mind and we can explore new things, don't think like your old grandfather"

My grandad was an engineer and worked on helping to design Concorde. Diesel oil is just name marketing. As in it is designed to be suitable for diesels. Which have very similar oil specs as for bikes. I use mobil diesel oil in my bike and truck.

[HDRIDER]

Hi

In ones had a Harley there did 75.000K before i sold it, you know what, I never had a problem with oil or filter, i was running motor bike oil and motor bike filter in my motorbike, and i am running car oil and car filter in my car, never had a problem, funny isn’t it

[Zzinged]

I can only presume that the not using a car filter in a bike waiver, was written by a lawyer, or industry driven to preserve margins on more expensive "motorcycle" filters. As long as the various engineering parameters are met/equal, then there is no technical difference between a car, tractor, or bike filter.

http://www.amazon.com/Purolator-PL14612-PureONE-Filter-Pack/dp/B000H81CDO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1279443719&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Purolator-ML16817-Black-Motorcycle-Filter/dp/B000ICNUK2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1279443713&sr=8-1

Prices aren't that much different. More likely that Purolator want to make sure people don't hold them liable if there's a fault and someone damages their engine.

[Cobrabiker]

thaicbr,I think you have a good old Grandfather

[Cobrabiker]

I've got a friend with an FZ1 with over 100k km. He's never had any mechanical problems with his engine. Guess what oil filter he uses? Genuine Yamaha.

Ever heard the expression, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

Fine with that, but when I was doing some searching, I saw this: "Most oil filters have filter elements made of paper and are effective down to about 40 microns. The Purolator Pure One filters capture 99.8% @ 30 microns and 99.2% @ 20 microns......by combining three different types of materials in their filter: paper like everyone else to catch the big stuff, and cellulose and fiberglass fibers to fill in the "large" holes in the paper with their much finer fibers.

This makes me want to investigate further, if you can prolong your engine's life, why not, unless rich guy like you change bike every 6 months. My bank account does not grant me this type of privilege that you are having. Oh Tony you still have the Ninja? What's next after the white gixxer? Hayabusa or BMW?

[noahvail]

Well, I'm an old git, with only 2.5million kms of driving and riding under my belt, so to speak. Never had an engine blow on bike, car, or truck. Always changed the filter twice as often as the oil, then just top up the oil. Always used Fram, except in the bikes, where I used the maker's choice. Always did a good job of keeping the oil clean.

I am much closer to poverty line as opposed to rich (actually, in the US, I'd be below the poverty line for the past 16 years). So keeping machinery together was a very important thing to me. The more often you change the filter, the cleaner the oil, and the easier the flow.

Maybe not great engineering, but it's worked. The mechanics that I've known have changed oil and filter at half the maker's interval...worked for them, worked for me. On American cars and trucks, Japanese cars and trucks and bikes, English car and bike, Italian car, Thai truck and bike.

I wish you luck with your research and trial on your bike. Gambling is illegal in Thailand of course, but if it weren't, I'd bet that you'll be sick if you blow your engine. I know I would be.

Edited to add 3 Swedish cars - forgot about the Volvo and 2 Saabs.

Edited July 18, 2010 by noahvail

[BSJ]

Hi CobraBiker, don't put any filter on that isn't mean to be there. Stick with K&N.

The bypass should only work when your filter is clogged up with gunk. Which is why we replace em with each oil change.

[davidgtr]

25 Satang's worth...

My Africa Twin has 270,000 kms on the clock (got it with only 17,000 kms on the clock in 2001)& I used copy Mazda car filters for at least 200,000 kms.

I change both the oil (& many times diesel oil) & filter every 5,000 kms approximately, sometimes 6,000 kms and have never had a problem.

I've just switched over to HilfloFiltro filters from out of Bangkok, because they are available & supposedly better.

But my point is how many of you guys have had, or heard of first hand of engine failures because of the wrong / bad oil filters?

So I reckon change the oil & filter regularly & you should be ok; & usually your bike manufacturer knows best, as he's the one who made the bike.

[Cobrabiker]

Thanks all for your inputs and advices. Even though quite a number of big bikes have used it, but there is no known long term effects reported yet, I do not know whether it will cause premature failure to the oil pump, or the oil is actually bypassing the filter due to higher pressure require to work the pump, I am guessing only, I have no idea how the bypass work, does anyone know how much pressure is required to work the pump?

BTW David,if the Mazda filter I guess is papper and not those high filtration type, it should cause no damage, the problem I am a bit worry is this pure one filter has 3 filter materials, high efficiency 20 micron, but is not stated how much minimum oil pump pressure is required.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Cobrabiker

[davidgtr]

Thanks all for your inputs and advices. Even though quite a number of big bikes have used it, but there is no known long term effects reported yet, I do not know whether it will cause premature failure to the oil pump, or the oil is actually bypassing the filter due to higher pressure require to work the pump, I am guessing only, I have no idea how the bypass work, does anyone know how much pressure is required to work the pump?

BTW David,if the Mazda filter I guess is papper and not those high filtration type, it should cause no damage, the problem I am a bit worry is this pure one filter has 3 filter materials, high efficiency 20 micron, but is not stated how much minimum oil pump pressure is required.

So what's wrong with whatever you're using now?

If it aint broke, don't fix it?

[Hog Head]

If it is worth doing, it is worth overdoing, hence my usage of Pure 1 filters and Mobile 1 diesel oil. Others choose do overdo it by changing their oil and filter twice as often.

Engines are expensive and oil is cheap so use what you deem the best and change it often if you are fussy, and if not, do as you please. Should you put enough miles on the bike or it sees severe service (common in this climate in an air cooled engine) then time will tell if your approach is correct. I am not a gambler and choose my approach for sound engineering and economic reasons.

On the subject of diesel oil see my comments in a post several months ago about where to buy M1 bike oil

BTW, K&N oil filters are not as good as other brands of high efficiency filters and in fact contain very little of the high tech filter medium. Hifiltro filters may be very good, however as they cannot, or will not provide particle retention data, I prefer to buy a product with published engineering specifications.

YMMV

[Cobrabiker]

Purolator has recently posted on their website that; "PureOne filters are designed for vehicles, not bikes. Because of PureOne's high efficiency, the motorcycle oil pump may not be able to handle the pressure..."

As an aside here, and maybe of no consequence; the ML series of filters are produced in China while the PureOne is made in the USA.

Here's my gripe; Purolators statement of caution is a broad stroke covering all bikes. Think about that classification for a minute. It includes everything from a Honda 50cc to a 400ci Boss Hoss! Now we all know there are many different motorcycle engine designs on the market today and at least as many different oiling systems for all those engines. I don't believe Purolator's statement is fair to the GL1800 engine and oiling system. I'm no engineer but I have done some in depth reading about the oiling system in these engines as well as the engineering and performance perameters of the PureOne oil filter, and I feel very comfortable running the PureOne filter for that reason. Rather than once again reiterating supporting facts and figures for this decision, do a search here for "PureOne", and that information will be on your computer screen for your reading pleasure.

I think big bikes should have no problem, again need some technical backup, I was wondering at what rmp I will get above 50psi? If I can get that, is equivalent to car, for example a 03 civic, 10psi at idle and 50psi at 3000rpm, more info here so I believe 30 to 40 psi is enough. I read in another forum that r1 gets about 60psi at 6000rpm, this should be more than enough for big bikes, but small bikes may not have enough pressure to use efficienly.

Check out this This Forum

Edited July 19, 2010 by Cobrabiker

[Cobrabiker]

If it is worth doing, it is worth overdoing, hence my usage of Pure 1 filters and Mobile 1 diesel oil. Others choose do overdo it by changing their oil and filter twice as often.

Engines are expensive and oil is cheap so use what you deem the best and change it often if you are fussy, and if not, do as you please. Should you put enough miles on the bike or it sees severe service (common in this climate in an air cooled engine) then time will tell if your approach is correct. I am not a gambler and choose my approach for sound engineering and economic reasons.

On the subject of diesel oil see my comments in a post several months ago about where to buy M1 bike oil

BTW, K&N oil filters are not as good as other brands of high efficiency filters and in fact contain very little of the high tech filter medium. Hifiltro filters may be very good, however as they cannot, or will not provide particle retention data, I prefer to buy a product with published engineering specifications.

YMMV

Couldn't agree more with Hog Head, you get my vote for the next election

[BSJ]

Ok, I am not going to add to the filter debate.....but the guys using diesel engine oil are freaking me out!!!

I've known all along to use bike oil instead of motor oil...because it will make your clutch slip...now we have people saying use diesel engine oil!

Whats the story with that???

[thaicbr]

Ok, I am not going to add to the filter debate.....but the guys using diesel engine oil are freaking me out!!!

I've known all along to use bike oil instead of motor oil...because it will make your clutch slip...now we have people saying use diesel engine oil!

Whats the story with that???

Its because diesel oil does not have the friction modifiers (that make your clutch slip) that car oils have.The spec is very similar to designated Motor cycle oil. And most importantly it's about half the price of 'Motorcycle oil'

[katabeachbum]

Ok, I am not going to add to the filter debate.....but the guys using diesel engine oil are freaking me out!!!

I've known all along to use bike oil instead of motor oil...because it will make your clutch slip...now we have people saying use diesel engine oil!

Whats the story with that???

Its because diesel oil does not have the friction modifiers (that make your clutch slip) that car oils have.The spec is very similar to designated Motor cycle oil. And most importantly it's about half the price of 'Motorcycle oil'

Anyone checked if the "diesel" engineoils come with Jaso MA approval, MC wet clutch approval? Or they save this for the more expensive "bike" oils bottles.

[BigBikeBKK]

Ok, I am not going to add to the filter debate.....but the guys using diesel engine oil are freaking me out!!!

I've known all along to use bike oil instead of motor oil...because it will make your clutch slip...now we have people saying use diesel engine oil!

Whats the story with that???

Its because diesel oil does not have the friction modifiers (that make your clutch slip) that car oils have.The spec is very similar to designated Motor cycle oil. And most importantly it's about half the price of 'Motorcycle oil'

My concerns about using "diesel" oil in a motorcycle engine are that diesel engines are cool running, low compression and low RPM while high performance motorcycle engines are high compression, run at high operating temperatures and high RPM. The biggest single factor in mineral oil breakdown is HEAT, so I would be concerned that "diesel" oil designed for cool running diesel engines would break down faster than a high grade motorcycle oil that is designed for high operating temperatures. Once that diesel oil (or any oil) starts to break down you run the risk of it foaming at high RPM's which will raise your oil pressure which just like blood pressure is not a good thing.

As for me, call me odd, but I've never used car oil or diesel oil in any of my bikes because, get this- they have this stuff called MOTORCYCLE OIL that comes in every flavor and brand you could dream of and it's actually designed for motorcycles! Who knew?!

Ride On!

Tony

[katabeachbum]

Ok, I am not going to add to the filter debate.....but the guys using diesel engine oil are freaking me out!!!

I've known all along to use bike oil instead of motor oil...because it will make your clutch slip...now we have people saying use diesel engine oil!

Whats the story with that???

Its because diesel oil does not have the friction modifiers (that make your clutch slip) that car oils have.The spec is very similar to designated Motor cycle oil. And most importantly it's about half the price of 'Motorcycle oil'

My concerns about using "diesel" oil in a motorcycle engine are that diesel engines are cool running, low compression and low RPM while high performance motorcycle engines are high compression, run at high operating temperatures and high RPM. The biggest single factor in mineral oil breakdown is HEAT, so I would be concerned that "diesel" oil designed for cool running diesel engines would break down faster than a high grade motorcycle oil that is designed for high operating temperatures. Once that diesel oil (or any oil) starts to break down you run the risk of it foaming at high RPM's which will raise your oil pressure which just like blood pressure is not a good thing.

As for me, call me odd, but I've never used car oil or diesel oil in any of my bikes because, get this- they have this stuff called MOTORCYCLE OIL that comes in every flavor and brand you could dream of and it's actually designed for motorcycles! Who knew?!

Ride On!

Tony

any turbo diesel, IOW any modern diesel, heats the oil more than any NA bike engine ever made

compression in a diesel is between 17-22, no bike engine even close.

pollution to oil in diesel engine is extreme

But hey, me to use bike oil, even if its the same product in different bottles

[BigBikeBKK]

Ok, I am not going to add to the filter debate.....but the guys using diesel engine oil are freaking me out!!!

I've known all along to use bike oil instead of motor oil...because it will make your clutch slip...now we have people saying use diesel engine oil!

Whats the story with that???

Its because diesel oil does not have the friction modifiers (that make your clutch slip) that car oils have.The spec is very similar to designated Motor cycle oil. And most importantly it's about half the price of 'Motorcycle oil'

My concerns about using "diesel" oil in a motorcycle engine are that diesel engines are cool running, low compression and low RPM while high performance motorcycle engines are high compression, run at high operating temperatures and high RPM. The biggest single factor in mineral oil breakdown is HEAT, so I would be concerned that "diesel" oil designed for cool running diesel engines would break down faster than a high grade motorcycle oil that is designed for high operating temperatures. Once that diesel oil (or any oil) starts to break down you run the risk of it foaming at high RPM's which will raise your oil pressure which just like blood pressure is not a good thing.

As for me, call me odd, but I've never used car oil or diesel oil in any of my bikes because, get this- they have this stuff called MOTORCYCLE OIL that comes in every flavor and brand you could dream of and it's actually designed for motorcycles! Who knew?!

Ride On!

Tony

any turbo diesel, IOW any modern diesel, heats the oil more than any NA bike engine ever made

compression in a diesel is between 17-22, no bike engine even close.

pollution to oil in diesel engine is extreme

But hey, me to use bike oil, even if its the same product in different bottles

Cheers Kata,

I learned something today! I grew up thinking that diesel engines ran cooler and at lower compression than conventional 4 stroke engines. Seem to remember a conversation years ago where someone explained to me that that's why diesel engines last so much longer than 4 stroke engines. Guess I was misinformed and have carried that erroneous knowledge around for all these years! Thanks for setting me straight!

(I'm still sticking with MOTORCYCLE OIL for my motorcycles and whatever Toyota recommends for my Diesel pick up truck.)

Ride On!

Tony

Edited July 19, 2010 by BigBikeBKK

[Hog Head]

any turbo diesel, IOW any modern diesel, heats the oil more than any NA bike engine ever made

compression in a diesel is between 17-22, no bike engine even close.

pollution to oil in diesel engine is extreme

Lets not forget the turbo on that diesel that runs at 20,000 + RPM, far faster and hotter than any air or water cooled engine will ever see. In fact I have seen them glow in the dark they are so hot. When the engine shuts off the turbo continues to spin, pushing the oil film far more than any other bearing will ever see. When compared to the duty cycle in a diesel, car and bike oil does not need the expensive additives that are needed for extreme applications.

Chief among these additives is ZDDP (zinc) and phosphorous - both very expensive and out of favour with the Greenies, so has been dropped from mainstream oil brands. Interestingly enough flat tappet engines require these additives and will soon be killed without as many a Porsche or old Beetle owner has found out. Motorcycle and diesel oil is loaded with ZDDP and phosphorous.

Check your favourite oil for these 2 additives and compare to Mobile 1 Delvac (Turbo Diesel Pickup Oil in Thailand). Should your brand choose to disclose this important information you will see why I use this product. In fact M-1 Motorcycle oil has even more of the good stuff, but alas mai mee here in LOS.

The plus is when you are on the road, Esso carries it at the pump - try that with Royal Purple, Amasol, Motul, or (insert your favourite bike oil brand here)

Once again YMMV

[Garry]

any turbo diesel, IOW any modern diesel, heats the oil more than any NA bike engine ever made

compression in a diesel is between 17-22, no bike engine even close.

pollution to oil in diesel engine is extreme

But hey, me to use bike oil, even if its the same product in different bottles

Cheers Kata,

I learned something today! I grew up thinking that diesel engines ran cooler and at lower compression than conventional 4 stroke engines. Seem to remember a conversation years ago where someone explained to me that that's why diesel engines last so much longer than 4 stroke engines. Guess I was misinformed and have carried that erroneous knowledge around for all these years! Thanks for setting me straight!

(I'm still sticking with MOTORCYCLE OIL for my motorcycles and whatever Toyota recommends for my Diesel pick up truck.)

Ride On!

Tony

For anyones interest, Diesel engine info:

In an auto-ignition diesel engine, (no electrical sparking plug—the hot air of compression lights the injected fuel) the compression ratio will customarily exceed 14:1. Ratios over 22:1 are common. The appropriate compression ratio depends on the design of the cylinder head. The figure is usually between 14:1 and 16:1 for direct injection engines and between 18:1 and 23:1 for indirect injection engines. :jap:

[davidgtr]

Diesel oil. Did I say something wrong?

What I used was a Shell Helix 15/50 semi synthetic diesel oil for years, but it is no longer available.

I've swapped over to Castrol Power 1 Synthetic 10-40.

And the reason - the bikes burning oil & in need of a ring / valve seal job, so I need to top up regularly & you can get the same Castrol everywhere.

That I believe can be an issue for some riders - being able to get the same oil all the time. Hence my preferences for Castrol Shell brand oils - you can get them everywhere.

[VocalNeal]

David,

Looks like with HighFlo or whatever it is you may be on the right track. I stumbled onto this.

I have a different nome de plume on your site.

[BigBikeBKK]

David,

Looks like with HighFlo or whatever it is you may be on the right track. I stumbled onto this.

I have a different nome de plume on your site.

LOL- I ordered HiFlo filters for my GSX-R when I was back in the US, hauled them back to Thailand and only yesterday noticed that they are MADE IN THAILAND! Have some K&N filters that the previous owner gave me and see they are also MADE IN THAILAND! Funny thing is I wouldn't be surprised if they are still more expensive in Thailand though...

[Garry]

David,

Looks like with HighFlo or whatever it is you may be on the right track. I stumbled onto this.

I have a different nome de plume on your site.

LOL- I ordered HiFlo filters for my GSX-R when I was back in the US, hauled them back to Thailand and only yesterday noticed that they are MADE IN THAILAND! Have some K&N filters that the previous owner gave me and see they are also MADE IN THAILAND! Funny thing is I wouldn't be surprised if they are still more expensive in Thailand though...

How does that not surprise me I recall a thread that was in either Ducati.ms or Ducati-Superbikes when a couple of filters got pulled apart for comparison and the K&N came up trumps with more filter area in the same package, plus the usual no excess restrictions due to the filter material that K&N use....

[katabeachbum]

Cheers Kata,

I learned something today! I grew up thinking that diesel engines ran cooler and at lower compression than conventional 4 stroke engines. Seem to remember a conversation years ago where someone explained to me that that's why diesel engines last so much longer than 4 stroke engines. Guess I was misinformed and have carried that erroneous knowledge around for all these years! Thanks for setting me straight!

(I'm still sticking with MOTORCYCLE OIL for my motorcycles and whatever Toyota recommends for my Diesel pick up truck.)

Ride On!

Tony

Well Tony, you where partly right. A diesel engine (and even more turbodiesel) is more energy efficient than a gasoline engine, thus providing less heat to the environment. In cold climates they often run as cold as 60C coolant-temp, making an oil burning or electric heater needed to heat cabin while driving.

But the turbo in a diesel engine provide extreme heat and is cooled by oil only. Thus oil must be extremely heatresistant in a turbo diesel

The very high compression in diesel is simply needed to burn diesel. GM converted their 350 V8 to diesel simply by replacing head and pistons to achieve 22 compression to run diesel. Launched in 1978, discontinued in 1982. Engine was a disaster, with very short life time

[katabeachbum]

any turbo diesel, IOW any modern diesel, heats the oil more than any NA bike engine ever made

compression in a diesel is between 17-22, no bike engine even close.

pollution to oil in diesel engine is extreme

But hey, me to use bike oil, even if its the same product in different bottles

Cheers Kata,

I learned something today! I grew up thinking that diesel engines ran cooler and at lower compression than conventional 4 stroke engines. Seem to remember a conversation years ago where someone explained to me that that's why diesel engines last so much longer than 4 stroke engines. Guess I was misinformed and have carried that erroneous knowledge around for all these years! Thanks for setting me straight!

(I'm still sticking with MOTORCYCLE OIL for my motorcycles and whatever Toyota recommends for my Diesel pick up truck.)

Ride On!

Tony

For anyones interest, Diesel engine info:

In an auto-ignition diesel engine, (no electrical sparking plug—the hot air of compression lights the injected fuel) the compression ratio will customarily exceed 14:1. Ratios over 22:1 are common. The appropriate compression ratio depends on the design of the cylinder head. The figure is usually between 14:1 and 16:1 for direct injection engines and between 18:1 and 23:1 for indirect injection engines. :jap:

LOS 4 pot 2,5-3,2 commonrail usually 16-19:1

[Cobrabiker]

I've got a friend with an FZ1 with over 100k km. He's never had any mechanical problems with his engine. Guess what oil filter he uses? Genuine Yamaha.

Ever heard the expression, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

Cos I intend to take it up to 1 million miles , check out this amazing test by Mobile on a BMW.

http://www.mobil1.com.au/performance/miles.aspx

Edited July 20, 2010 by Cobrabiker

[Cobrabiker]

Diesel oil. Did I say something wrong?

What I used was a Shell Helix 15/50 semi synthetic diesel oil for years, but it is no longer available.

I've swapped over to Castrol Power 1 Synthetic 10-40.

And the reason - the bikes burning oil & in need of a ring / valve seal job, so I need to top up regularly & you can get the same Castrol everywhere.

That I believe can be an issue for some riders - being able to get the same oil all the time. Hence my preferences for Castrol Shell brand oils - you can get them everywhere.

Hi David, Castrol is not a high grade synthetic oil, I thnik Mobil has better staff and higher grade, you may want to research further.

In the late 1990s, Castrol started selling an oil made from Group III base oil and called it SynTec Full Synthetic. Mobil sued Castrol, asserting that this oil was not synthetic, but simply a highly refined petroleum oil, and therefore it was false advertising to call it synthetic. In 1999, Mobil lost their lawsuit. It was decided that the word "synthetic" was a marketing term and referred to properties, not to production methods or ingredients. Castrol continues to make SynTec out of Group III base oils, that is highly purified mineral oil with most all of the cockroach bits removed.

Shortly after Mobil lost their lawsuit, most oil companies started reformulating their synthetic oils to use Group III base stocks instead of PAOs or diester stocks as their primary component. Most of the "synthetic oil" you can buy today is actually mostly made of this highly-distilled and purified dino-juice called Group III oil. Group III base oils cost about half as much as the synthetics. By using a blend of mostly Group III oils and a smaller amount of "true" synthetics, the oil companies can produce a product that has nearly the same properties as the "true" synthetics, and nearly the same cost as the Group III oil. The much more expensive traditional synthetics are now available in their pure forms only in more expensive and harder to obtain oils. To the best of my knowledge, Delvac-1, AMSOil, Redline, and Motul 5100 are the only oils made from pure traditional synthetics.

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html#Oil

[BSJ]

Hi folks, I am going to stick to oil designed for motorcycles. I am not saying your wrong using Diesel oil, I am saying if you are wrong you suffer the consequences, not me! Besides, at the moment I am riding a ST1100 and I hardly ever take it over 5 grand! So the mineral oil I use (Castrol) is good enough and only AU$10 a litre.