What Is Born?

[christiaan]

" The Buddha teaches about other realms and rebirth and recalls his own past lives"

This is a quote I use to introduce this topic.

My question is, since there are births by the millions, not only humans but also animals, WHAT IS born?

Certainly from the days of Buddha and ofcourse some time before, there is a continues stream of births, but WHAT IS born?

When there has been birth, when can someone recall a sequence of births to be the own past lives?

When I call something to be my own I mean it is owned by my SELF, not by someone elses Self or energy.

When there is talk about recalling the own past lives, and material live on earth that is where we here are talking about, lives always starts with being born, how to explain?

To put my question in a context I truly belief Buddha never lied and was full of wisdom, and for this he was/is one of the most important humans in human history.

For me no doubt about that.

But when I met a neighbour who told me he remembered my brother being a little pale and sick boy I know he speaks the truth. Only that was 37 years ago, my brother is still my brother but no little pale and sick boy anymore. He evolved in time to the person he is now.

The wisdom of Buddha is 2500 years old and in the essence stil true, just like my brother is still that brother, but I suspect that Buddhisme also evolved in time.

Well that is a little joke, I know it did evolve in time.

But I do have the feeling there are some Buddhists who did not, they seem not to comprehend this moving and transformation in time (allthough time itself is not 'working')

Buddha was reality, Buddhisme is reality. To believe Buddhisme did not change or Buddhisme did change seems to be a personal choice and this choice can be based on the personal ego.

In my case I tell; Buddhisme transformed in time, I am as sure about that as I am sure Buddha lived on earth.

But to return to my topic, - yes it is important to stay on topic, because if you don't do you are talking about munks underpants before you know - the question is: with all the births taking place: WHAT IS born?

[fabianfred]

Sorry about the underpants, I know you probably didn't need all the gory details, but I was asked...

The Buddha didn't start the religion of Buddhism...he just taught the Dhamma...the truth....the unchanging truth. But What does change, since we are in Samsara where all is subject to change, is our understanding or interpretation of the truth...or lack of understanding.

Since we are physically changing every second, but more noticeably over several years, we are also changing by creating new karma, using up old karma, gaining new knowledge, etc. The final moments of death our karma and mindstream directs us into the next mind moment and rebirth.

If we are able to see past lives it is logical that they would e ours....unless we have special gifts like the abbot who can see other beings karma and past lives too.

[canuckamuck]

If birth is a continuation, where is the beginning? what is first birth? If there are trillions of creatures, was there always trillions?

[fabianfred]

If birth is a continuation, where is the beginning? what is first birth? If there are trillions of creatures, was there always trillions?

No beginning and no end...until you reach Nirvana.......according to the Buddha, who could know anything he wished to know about. So we have all existed since beginningless time... trapped in this cycle by our ignorance.

[canuckamuck]

How did we become ignorant then

[fabianfred]

How did we become ignorant then

Ignorance in the context of Buddhism means not having a correct understanding of the truth.....misunderstanding...or misbelieving the truth.

We usually only get the chance to know the real truth on the rare occasions when a Buddha is born and teaches it....after reaching enlightenment.

[christiaan]

" The final moments of death our karma and mindstream directs us into the next mind moment and rebirth"

It is an interesting question to ask how we became ignorant but I prefer to continue now with the question: what is born?

In my view the I is incarnating again and will be living in a body and in a soul becoming a person, an ego.

Living his or her life the I returns to the spiritual world again and lives in this sopiritual world with awareness in some way till it will materialises again, incarnates again,.

One could call this I a stream of consciousnes, but in my view this is a stream of consciousness of an I, not just a stream of consciousness.

I understand Buddhists in general do have another view about this, - I do not like to use the specific language used to refer to the teachings - I just would like to express It is not very clear to me how Buddhists think, what the teaching exactly try to tell.

So maybe someone can try to have more light shine to this?

What is a "mind stream" in this context,

what is a "mind moment"

what is the difference between rebirth and reincarnmation?

[christiaan]

I see I forget to ask: who are "us"

to be ad to the previous contribution, thanks

[canuckamuck]

How did we become ignorant then

Ignorance in the context of Buddhism means not having a correct understanding of the truth.....misunderstanding...or misbelieving the truth.

We usually only get the chance to know the real truth on the rare occasions when a Buddha is born and teaches it....after reaching enlightenment.

So how did we become ignorant?

[fabianfred]

How did we become ignorant then

Ignorance in the context of Buddhism means not having a correct understanding of the truth.....misunderstanding...or misbelieving the truth.

We usually only get the chance to know the real truth on the rare occasions when a Buddha is born and teaches it....after reaching enlightenment.

So how did we become ignorant?

We didn't become ignoratnt...we have always been and still (for the most part) are ignorant. As I said only when we get to meet the truth taught by a Buddha on the rare occasions they are around and their teaching is still extant...do we get to dispel that ignorance. Even then many just ignore his message or do not get to hear it.

[christiaan]

In this context ignorance means - not being aware - that is a far much wiser term. When we can loose ignorancy by becoming aware the teachings of Buddha it shows this ignorancy is being unaware. So to use the phrase ignorance makes this all hard to understand.

We " are unaware" once born in a body, we are not unaware when still in the spiritual world.

So everytime we are born on earth , this unawareness starts and we have to see to become aware.

We have to bring the spiritual truth of the spiritual world into the material world by living on earth and becoming spiritual aware.

It is only on earth, living in a body that we as humans can make free choices, and by developing spiritual awareness on earth out of freedom, we , at the end, could make this world a world of love. and not only a world of wisdom. We do so, by not only thinking wise and being aware wise, we, within this wisdom have to act wise and start to act out of love.

Love can only become reality when we can sacrifice our selfs , (something else as detach from it) we sacrifice in love when do out of free choice, not out of any law.

Nibbana is not a world of love, it is a world of wisdom a world of wisdom laws.

[canuckamuck]

It is only on earth, living in a body that we as humans can make free choices,

How do you know?

and by developing spiritual awareness on earth out of freedom

this part makes no sense to me

we, at the end, could make this world a world of love. and not only a world of wisdom. We do so, by not only thinking wise and being aware wise, we, within this wisdom have to act wise and start to act out of love.

Love can only become reality when we can sacrifice our selfs , (something else as detach from it) we sacrifice in love when do out of free choice, not out of any law.

Nibbana is not a world of love, it is a world of wisdom a world of wisdom laws.

The rest of what you wrote is interesting. I think you will find the English word 'love' is problematic for what you are attempting to describe because we ascribe far too many meanings to that solitary word. The Greeks have 5 words for love, most of which attain to some sort of attachment or duty. But the word agape (which is a selfless love, a love that is freely given without expectation or necessity of reciprocation) might fit into what you are saying when you describe a world of love.

Interesting that you describe Nibbana as a world of laws though

[christiaan]

Canuckamuck

One can know only on earth humans can make free choices when we have high awareness. When we observe without attachment.

What in the world can make a free choice,.. plants, minerals animals?

Only human can. We can discover looking at our self, we can discover looking at other people.

Sometimes people argue animals have a personallity, have a free will too.

But they cannot.

The awareness of an animal is instinct, it is awareness without selfawareness, it is awareness within the speciality of its manifestation.

To be able to make a choice one needs to have selfawareness, because when we are aware of a choice to make we say: I have to make a choice.

The spiritual world is a world of spiritual laws like the material world is a world of material laws.

The material world is the manifestation of a part of the spiritual world.

When we are in the spiritual world we are submitted to the spiritual law, there we do ot have the freedom as we have on earth.

When people on earth are becoming spiritual aware it is out of freedom,

One cannot force somebody to become spiritual aware.

Beside the people born in Buddhisme as a cultural event, beside people becoming a munk out of life necessity, there still are a lot of people connected and connecting to Buddhisme out of a free choice.

This is what I mean when I write developing spiritual awareness on earth out of freedom.

Yes, you are completely right. Thank you very much for bringing attention to this.

Agape is the right expression for this love.

In earlier times language was more spiritual as nowadays, even the language nowadays is poor and materialised.

[canuckamuck]

Christiaan, you said:

It is only on earth, living in a body that we as humans can make free choices,

and I said how do you know? but I was referring to the only on Earth part, not about whether or not humans have free will.

If only terrestrial humans can make choices, then in the spirit realm is everything automatic? are there no spiritual beings making choices?

[christiaan]

As far as I know there is no freedom in the spiritual world, but I am not completely sure at this moment.

I know in the spiritual world there is also continous development and all spiritual beings evolve, but I know some spiritual beings 'stay back' in evolving to a higher 'level' for the sake of the development of other spiritual beings. This does look voluntarily but I asume this also is by spiritual law.

[christiaan]

several contributions and I still haven't seen some information regarding my question: what is born? Is it a mindstream that is born ?

What is born and how does this take place, I mean the spirit or whatever connecting to the body?

thanks for an answer.

[rockyysdt]

As far as I know there is no freedom in the spiritual world, but I am not completely sure at this moment.

I know in the spiritual world there is also continous development and all spiritual beings evolve, but I know some spiritual beings 'stay back' in evolving to a higher 'level' for the sake of the development of other spiritual beings. This does look voluntarily but I asume this also is by spiritual law.

christiaan how do you know all these things?

[christiaan]

I think Rockyysdt, it is a matter of study, awareness, selfdevelopment, but the most important probably is the developing capability of independent intuitive thinking'.

We have come into a time where we do not need 'masters' or gurus anymore.

In a normal situation every human nowadays has the capabillity to come to higher knowledge, it is a matter of self development. (That is why quality schooleducation in Thailand would change the whole of Thailand)

Selfdevelopment is only possible when you do not detach from life but when you embrace life in the knowledge this life, this world is the expression of the material world.

We as humans can, just because we do live in the material world being the expression of the spiritual world, learn to know this world and our selfs.

How can we come to selfawareness? Becos we live in a 'personal' material world in a way 'separated' from the spiritual world . How could we as humans 'discover' the spiritual world when we would be completeley similar to some (single) spiritual world? You have to be 'outside' to be 'that other ' in some way to learn 'those others'

It is like how could we become aware of our ego when we would be completely identical with this earthly ego?

We can become aware because our higher Self is not identical with the ego.

Developing our higher awarenss is developing the higher self is becoming more aware of the lower Self.

Independent intuitive thinking, developing you spiritual senses, that will bring you to knowledge.

And many Buddhist practices can help you to do so.

Then you will also discover the spritual world is dynamic and living and transforming as the material world, and so in 2500 years some 'things' did change.

[garycm]

If birth is a continuation, where is the beginning? what is first birth? If there are trillions of creatures, was there always trillions?

No beginning and no end...until you reach Nirvana.......according to the Buddha, who could know anything he wished to know about. So we have all existed since beginningless time... trapped in this cycle by our ignorance.

Hi,

if we reincarnate, then why is the world population still growing?

G

[rockyysdt]

I think Rockyysdt, it is a matter of study, awareness, selfdevelopment, but the most important probably is the developing capability of independent intuitive thinking'.

So christiaan.

In summary through study, awareness, & self development you know that:

• Nibbana is not a world of love, it is a world of wisdom a world of wisdom laws.
• I know in the spiritual world there is also continous development and all spiritual beings evolve.
• I know some spiritual beings 'stay back' in evolving to a higher 'level' for the sake of the development of other spiritual beings.
• This does look voluntarily but I assume this also is by spiritual law.
• The spiritual world is a world of spiritual laws like the material world is a world of material laws.
• The material world is the manifestation of a part of the spiritual world.
• When we are in the spiritual world we are submitted to the spiritual law, there we do ot have the freedom as we have on earth.
• We " are unaware" once born in a body, we are not unaware when still in the spiritual world.
• It is only on earth, living in a body that we as humans can make free choices.
• So everytime we are born on earth , this unawareness starts and we have to see to become aware.

Which of these did you learn through study?

Which did you learn from awareness?

Which were learned from self development?

Do you remember your spiritual states & came to these conclusions through personal experience?

Edited August 6, 2010 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

If birth is a continuation, where is the beginning? what is first birth? If there are trillions of creatures, was there always trillions?

No beginning and no end...until you reach Nirvana.......according to the Buddha, who could know anything he wished to know about. So we have all existed since beginningless time... trapped in this cycle by our ignorance.

Hi,

if we reincarnate, then why is the world population still growing?

G

Don't forget that there are many animal species becoming extinct. Also the number of beings in the lower and higher realms is vast...so they are being reborn in the human realm too.

The Buddha picked some dust on his fingernail and asked his companions to compare it with the whole earth....the dust being equivalent to the number of beings in the human realm and the earth to those exisiting in the lower realms....

[christiaan]

Well Rockyssdt

all developing factors are interrelated and interdepending. I always ask questions and as many humans I gain knowledge by the answers I receive. Studying is like asking questions, since I never just accept what I read, many information I learn to know I accept 'for the time being' and then I continue my study and practice. By all this my awareness and my being developes. I can recall my spiritual states and come to my conclusions - ' knowledge for the time being cos we are constanly in movement' - as many Buddhist munks do.

But I am not detached from life as munks in general are.

In general there is not one practice as we learn to know by buddhisme preferable to one other, that is more or less a personal situation since all people are not the same.

What is most important is to purify the mind, the feeling and the will.

[christiaan]

Birth as we know of humans is just continuing as long as this material world exist.

Birth also started when this material world started to exist since birth as we know it is a material happening. In complete evolution the existence of the earth is just one of the stages and so living inside a material body as we know it at the moment also is a passing stage.

At this moment of evolution of the earth I do not think any animal species is born in the human realm, to me this looks impossible at this time of evolution.

As I wrote before we live in worlds of law, in the material world the material world of laws, in the spiritual world the spiritual world of laws.

As we all know it is impossible on earth that species mingle with eachother, a giraffe is never born out of a zebra, an eagle not out of a delphin , a monkey not out of kangaroo. We all stay in line, this is the expression of the laws of the spiritual world manifest in the material world.

So to think at this time of development of the earth it is possible (extinct) (why should only the extinct??? Is this a confirmation a species of an animal is one single spiritual entity) animals are born as humans is a wrong interpretation of traditional knowledge. Only after the ending of the stage of the earth - some - animals can transfer to higher existence in a rebirth of earth. At that time many entities will have transformed to some higher state since that is the dynamic in the spiritual world.

There are also no higher spirits out of higher realms born on earth in a human body. They were embodied in a previous state of the earth (then not named "earth") and were no material creatueres looking like humans now.

When the earth was becoming a material reality all humans already did exist in the spiritual world. One of the facts that there are more and more humans on earth as in the, lets say , 200 years before is also due to more human spirits entering material life and it seems this is also connected to the fact that the time between incarnations is shorter as before.

Then another fact , how many Indians lived in North America before the Europeans entered their continent?

How many South American indians lived in that continent before the people of Spain and Portugal set a foot at their shores?

We do not exactly know, but the scientist think that could be many millions of people only in the USA.

But even then there are more people on earth as 200 years ago.

[fabianfred]

Christiaan.... I don't agree that there are different laws for the spirit and material.

The Dhamma, especially the law of karma is the true law which affects all beings....

Do not class animals as seperate eings from humans...or devas in the higher realms. We are all simply beings..... together and the same. When in an existence in the human realm we take human form...when in the hel_l realm we are in the form of hel_l beings...when in the animal realm there are many forms.... but we are still all beings, struggling in the prison of samasara.

Our karma takes us from one birth to the next and decided which realm we go to...

[rockyysdt]

all developing factors are interrelated and interdepending. I always ask questions and as many humans I gain knowledge by the answers I receive. Studying is like asking questions, since I never just accept what I read, many information I learn to know I accept 'for the time being' and then I continue my study and practice. By all this my awareness and my being developes. I can recall my spiritual states and come to my conclusions - ' knowledge for the time being cos we are constantly in movement' - as many Buddhist munks do.

But I am not detached from life as munks in general are.

I think it's unwise & unhelpful to create preconceived ideas about what Nirvana is & what it's like to live in other realms such as the spiritual world & others unless one has actually experienced them first hand.

Attachment to such ideas picked up from others through forums, books, & from individuals should be accepted with skepticism as you may end up being far from actual reality.

Even the Buddha refrained from speaking about what Nirvana is, but focused on what it is not.

Perhaps the only thing that can be said of Nirvana by unenlightened beings is that it is permanent & unconditioned.

Gathering preconceived ideas from non enlightened authors & individuals creates an unhealthy attachment and, by attachment, can hold back ones progress.

Most at this forum strive to learn about Buddhism.

The esoteric nature of Buddhist aspects can encourage & promote interest but sticking unwaveringly to ones practice on this noble path is far more important.

I encourage learning about what the Buddha taught specifically including the four noble truths & the eight fold path.

Do you agree?

Edited August 7, 2010 by rockyysdt

[christiaan]

Buddhism is a way of life , the practice of Buddhism , the four noble truths & the eight fold path are part of this life and can help a human to develop him or herself to thrue human existence. True human existence by thes practice can be experienced.

Beside the teachings of Buddha one can learn to know and experience the important spiritual events and living wisdom as it came to humanity in the last 2500 years.

We, as humans always attach, in religion we attach to religion, in wisdom we attach to wisdom.

As we can see thoughout history every religion can bring people to become dogmatic, to make teachings immutable, that is the action of the ego.

The teachings of Buddha are the teachings of one of the highest and most enlighted persons in the history as we know,

The teachings of Buddha were the expression of his awareness, but in 2500 years the spiritual world and so the material world evolved and transformed.

Human awareness evolved, science evolved becos of it.

Even the suffering evolved.

So, when Buddha would have lived now he would have teached more becos the awarenss would have shown more to be aware of as for 2500 years ago and the individual human awareness of many people would have been able , now is able , to comprehend more.

There are always enlighted people, high enlighted people.

While traditional Buddhisme will continue to exist but also will disapear somehwere in future, the world of the spirit will come to the people, even dogmatic Buddhisme cannot stop this.

Becaus Buddha is not the only high enlighted person in the history and certainly not the last one there is more to know.

Yes, unenlighted people probably can not tell more about Nirvana as that it is permanent and unconditioned.

Enlighted people can also say Nirvana is the world of wisdom laws and a world of dynamics and transformation.

To putting bounderies by referring to " most of the people " will not stop spiritual development for human individuals.

Buddha teached the way how to come to enlightment, he did not prescribed what people where allowed to see once enlighted.

The traditional Buddhisme as I have learned to know in the practice, visiting countries in Asia , being related to a Buddhist partner, shows that Buddhisme is telling why a country as Thailand has these enormous problems and suffering of the people. Buddhisme as it is in Thailand is conserving those problems and even preventing the transforming of this society to a better, more spiritual society.

Once Buddhisme will become a living religion again a religion connected to the actuality of life, a religion connected to the reality of this world as it is 2500 years after Buddha lived , Thailand and Thai will have a better life with less - material - suffering.

[rockyysdt]

Buddhism is a way of life , the practice of Buddhism , the four noble truths & the eight fold path are part of this life and can help a human to develop him or herself to thrue human existence. True human existence by thes practice can be experienced.

Beside the teachings of Buddha one can learn to know and experience the important spiritual events and living wisdom as it came to humanity in the last 2500 years.

We, as humans always attach, in religion we attach to religion, in wisdom we attach to wisdom.

As we can see thoughout history every religion can bring people to become dogmatic, to make teachings immutable, that is the action of the ego.

The teachings of Buddha are the teachings of one of the highest and most enlighted persons in the history as we know,

The teachings of Buddha were the expression of his awareness, but in 2500 years the spiritual world and so the material world evolved and transformed.

Human awareness evolved, science evolved becos of it.

Even the suffering evolved.

So, when Buddha would have lived now he would have teached more becos the awarenss would have shown more to be aware of as for 2500 years ago and the individual human awareness of many people would have been able , now is able , to comprehend more.

There are always enlighted people, high enlighted people.

While traditional Buddhisme will continue to exist but also will disapear somehwere in future, the world of the spirit will come to the people, even dogmatic Buddhisme cannot stop this.

Becaus Buddha is not the only high enlighted person in the history and certainly not the last one there is more to know.

Yes, unenlighted people probably can not tell more about Nirvana as that it is permanent and unconditioned.

Enlighted people can also say Nirvana is the world of wisdom laws and a world of dynamics and transformation.

To putting bounderies by referring to " most of the people " will not stop spiritual development for human individuals.

Buddha teached the way how to come to enlightment, he did not prescribed what people where allowed to see once enlighted.

The traditional Buddhisme as I have learned to know in the practice, visiting countries in Asia , being related to a Buddhist partner, shows that Buddhisme is telling why a country as Thailand has these enormous problems and suffering of the people. Buddhisme as it is in Thailand is conserving those problems and even preventing the transforming of this society to a better, more spiritual society.

Once Buddhisme will become a living religion again a religion connected to the actuality of life, a religion connected to the reality of this world as it is 2500 years after Buddha lived , Thailand and Thai will have a better life with less - material - suffering.

Yes but I was hoping you were going to answer my post.

You indicated that through study, awareness, & self development you know that:

• Nibbana is not a world of love, it is a world of wisdom a world of wisdom laws.
• I know in the spiritual world there is also continous development and all spiritual beings evolve.
• I know some spiritual beings 'stay back' in evolving to a higher 'level' for the sake of the development of other spiritual beings.
• This does look voluntarily but I assume this also is by spiritual law.
• The spiritual world is a world of spiritual laws like the material world is a world of material laws.
• The material world is the manifestation of a part of the spiritual world.
• When we are in the spiritual world we are submitted to the spiritual law, there we do ot have the freedom as we have on earth.
• We " are unaware" once born in a body, we are not unaware when still in the spiritual world.
• It is only on earth, living in a body that we as humans can make free choices.
• So every time we are born on earth , this unawareness starts and we have to see to become aware.

How can one know these things without personal experience?

[christiaan]

There is knowledge based on authority, there is knowledge based on insight

Gaining knowledge based on personal insight is personal experience.

In thinking every individual is autonomous and free

People can learn to know as teached in the teachings of Buddha and come to the insights as I described

[canuckamuck]

Having ideas is not knowledge.

[christiaan]

Having is not, but seeing them is.

Becos seeing the world of living ideas is enlightment