As a Buddhist I am morally obliged to follow, at minimum, the five basic Precepts, one of which is that I will cause no harm to any other living, sentient being. Another precept requires that I never speak untruths or attempt to mislead people.

I find it interesting that part of the oath of allegiance for those becoming citizens of the USA requires that they swear to bear arms to protect their adoptive country.

How can these self evidently contradictory requirements be resolved. Can a Buddhist ever become an American citizen?

As a Buddhist I am morally obliged to follow, at minimum, the five basic Precepts, one of which is that I will cause no harm to any other living, sentient being. Another precept requires that I never speak untruths or attempt to mislead people.

I find it interesting that part of the oath of allegiance for those becoming citizens of the USA requires that they swear to bear arms to protect their adoptive country.

How can these self evidently contradictory requirements be resolved. Can a Buddhist ever become an American citizen?

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Well, from what you've said, if you insist on being honest and you would not bear arms to protect the USA then I guess you can not become an American citizen....until the next rebirth at the earliest.

The US is the only country without Buddhists.......only joking

Would you say that there are no Buddhists in the Thai Armed Forces or even the Police Force.....All of whom bear arms and use them as well.....

If you want to have the benefits of a new country then you have to accept that there is also a price to pay and that can include the defence of your new country and its interests.

Of course you only need to bear arms and use them if there was a national conscription....but then there is an exemption on religious grounds, so you should be safe there. Also it is prejudice to refuse a person from becoming a citizen on the grounds of religious persuasion.

Of course a Buddhist can become an American citizen.....The question is, if called upon, are you prepared to defend your adapted country ???

Should we move this to the Buddhism forum branch, maybe? Please advise.

Should we move this to the Buddhism forum branch, maybe? Please advise.

See how it pans out George.......I dont see it as strictly a Buddhist thread

Could you please check the wording of the oath of citizenship? Technically, isn't it something to the effect that "I will...defend my country?"

I am a pacifist by religious conviction, and could never defend my country by use of arms. However, being a US citizen by birth, I don't have to take the oath.

There are no religious exemptions from conscription at this time, because there is no conscription since about 1972. Congressman Rangel, veteran of the Korea war, introduced a bill in Congress this week to re-institute the draft. His bill died last year on a vote of 402 to 2, and this year's bill probably would never make it to the floor for a vote. If the draft is ever re-instituted, there's no telling if there will be ANY restrictions. At this time, I'd like it to require that all family members between the ages of 16 and 66 be drafted, of all legislators and executive branch officers, before one other person is drafted. The Bush twin girls go first, along with Cheney's daughter.

Without having this moved to the Buddhist thread (because so few of us non-Buddhists even look there), is it your opinion, original poster, that a devout Buddhist would have to always, everywhere, refrain from harming a human being? Even if his country drafted him, or even if his family were about to be attacked? That's how I believe, by religious conviction.

Could you please check the wording of the oath of citizenship?  Technically, isn't it something to the effect that "I will...defend my country?"

I am a pacifist by religious conviction, and could never defend my country by use of arms.  However, being a US citizen by birth, I don't have to take the oath.

There are no religious exemptions from conscription at this time, because there is no conscription since about 1972.  Congressman Rangel, veteran of the Korea war, introduced a bill in Congress this week to re-institute the draft.  His bill died last year on a vote of 402 to 2, and this year's bill probably would never make it to the floor for a vote.  If the draft is ever re-instituted, there's no telling if there will be ANY restrictions.  At this time, I'd like it to require that all family members between the ages of 16 and 66 be drafted, of all legislators and executive branch officers, before one other person is drafted.  The Bush twin girls go first, along with Cheney's daughter.

Without having this moved to the Buddhist thread (because so few of us non-Buddhists even look there), is it your opinion, original poster, that a devout Buddhist would have to always, everywhere, refrain from harming a human being?  Even if his country drafted him, or even if his family were about to be attacked?  That's how I believe, by religious conviction.

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A story that might amuse you, PeaceBlondie (apologies if you know it):

Like most of the other philosophers, writers, and artists in the Bloomsbury Group, Lytton Strachey was a sexual, social and political liberal. At the onset of World War I, Strachey, having applied for an exemption from compulsory military service as a conscientious objector, was called before a special tribunal, whose representative blasted him with questions designed to intimidate:

"I understand, Mr. Strachey, that you have a conscientious objection to all wars," he began. "Oh, no, not at all," Strachey declared. "Only to this one."

"Tell me, Mr. Strachey," the interrogator continued, "what would you do if you saw a German soldier attempting to rape your sister?" "I suppose," Strachey drily replied, gazing at his sisters in the public gallery, "I would try and come between them."

After further examination by military doctors, Strachey won his exemption.

No, Thomas, that's the first time I heard that one. I assure you, I laughed out loud and almost fell off my chair. I'll have to save that answer if they try to draft Americans under 70 with prior service, and I'll just as drily reply, "I would try and cum between them."

But seriously, back to the original post: is one of the key moral concepts of Buddhism is "cause no harm to any other living being"? If so, how can a devout Thai Buddhist serve faithfully in the military or police, or sanction the wars that Thailand fought as a Buddhist country?

No, Thomas, that's the first time I heard that one.  I assure you, I laughed out loud and almost fell off my chair.  I'll have to save that answer if they try to draft Americans under 70 with prior service, and I'll just as drily reply, "I would try and cum between them."

But seriously, back to the original post: is one of the key moral concepts of Buddhism is "cause no harm to any other living being"?  If so, how can a devout Thai Buddhist serve faithfully in the military or police, or sanction the wars that Thailand fought as a Buddhist country?

Just a thought

Like certain people in some villages, that are exempted by the monks in order to kill animals for food...Soldiers and cops etc... may also be exempted by the monks, just out of practicallity.....After all what good is an army that doesnt kill.

Buddhism by and large seems to be a fairly adaptable thing

No, Thomas, that's the first time I heard that one.  I assure you, I laughed out loud and almost fell off my chair.  I'll have to save that answer if they try to draft Americans under 70 with prior service, and I'll just as drily reply, "I would try and cum between them."

But seriously, back to the original post: is one of the key moral concepts of Buddhism is "cause no harm to any other living being"?  If so, how can a devout Thai Buddhist serve faithfully in the military or police, or sanction the wars that Thailand fought as a Buddhist country?

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Just a thought

Like certain people in some villages, that are exempted by the monks in order to kill animals for food...Soldiers and cops etc... may also be exempted by the monks, just out of practicallity.....After all what good is an army that doesnt kill.

Buddhism by and large seems to be a fairly adaptable thing

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I'm off topic a bit but I can't help but repeat one of your sentences, "After all what good is an army that doesnt kill." There is something about this that makes me think.

As a Buddhist I am morally obliged to follow, at minimum, the five basic Precepts, one of which is that I will cause no harm to any other living, sentient being. Another precept requires that I never speak untruths or attempt to mislead people.

I find it interesting that part of the oath of allegiance for those becoming citizens of the USA requires that they swear to bear arms to protect their adoptive country.

How can these self evidently contradictory requirements be resolved. Can a Buddhist ever become an American citizen?

I think you'll find that lots of Buddhists don't observe all five precepts all the time. The key point is your intention and if you are prepared to accept the karmic consequences of the action. Buddhists tell lies all the time, often to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

Let's say a Buddhist lies about being willing to bear arms in the oath of allegiance in order to ensure a better future for himself and his family in America - I doubt the karmic consequences are going to be that big, or worry anyone much. Actually bearing arms would be the bigger issue, but there are ways around it. Unless you're young, the chances of being drafted are pretty remote unless WW3 comes along. And there are ways of doing your patriotic duty without killing anyone. For example, a pacifist friend of mine joined up with the Medical Corps rather than wait to be drafted. He ended up as a helicopter medic in Vietnam - extremely dangerous but he didn't have to kill anyone.

In a situation such as defending Europe from the Nazis in WW2, I would think the average Buddhist householder would be as prepared to kill to defend his family as would a Christian. Truly devout Christians and Buddhists might not be prepared to actually kill someone, though.

As a Buddhist I am morally obliged to follow, at minimum, the five basic Precepts, one of which is that I will cause no harm to any other living, sentient being. Another precept requires that I never speak untruths or attempt to mislead people.

I find it interesting that part of the oath of allegiance for those becoming citizens of the USA requires that they swear to bear arms to protect their adoptive country.

How can these self evidently contradictory requirements be resolved. Can a Buddhist ever become an American citizen?

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I think you'll find that lots of Buddhists don't observe all five precepts all the time.

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I think you'll find that lots of Buddhists don't observe any of the five precepts all the time.