Many Thai Red Shirts Abandoned By Their Leaders: Human Rights Activist

[jayjay0]

This is an interesting article, if it is accurate. First of all, it's the first mention of beatings and a possible lynching that I've seen in mainstream Thai media. Secondly, I wonder about the stated disarray and disorganization of the Red Shirts that is mentioned... I can't help but think that this is probably the result of the 83 frozen bank accounts of Thaksin's friends and family. Even though the majority of those accounts are being or have been unfrozen, I suspect that the PooYai are unwilling to "throw good money after bad" and may consider the Red struggle to be over, at least for the time being. If this is the case, I'm not surprised at the cannon fodder being abandoned.

Although it would be nice to see a genuine political movement dedicated to social equality, free speech and justice, I just don't see the Red Shirts as being convincing in that role. While those were certainly the aims of many of the more thoughtful and articulate of the mid- and lower ranking members of the Red Shirt movement, this article exposes the higher ranking members as being the mercenary hypocrites that I've always suspected that they were.

Yes it would be nice

"to see a genuine political movement dedicated to social equality, free speech and justice"

I do not see that hapening in my life time. I firmly believe that we are on the road to it but there is more to it than changing your elected officals. I in no way am implying that there are no honest officials.

The bureaucracy would put a stop to any sudden change of attitude. The reality is the elected officials need the people to elect them and they need the bureaucracy to do the work. I believe that all the men down the line under elected officials got more graft money than the elected officials. That includes Thaksin.

This is a problem in every country some worse some better but still a problem.

[jayjay0]

How many of these people who have been (allegedly) denied their human rights have been found guilty and have had the appropriate sentences passed down ?.

Doesn't matter how many it still is not enough.

[jayjay0]

This is an interesting article, if it is accurate. First of all, it's the first mention of beatings and a possible lynching that I've seen in mainstream Thai media. Secondly, I wonder about the stated disarray and disorganization of the Red Shirts that is mentioned... I can't help but think that this is probably the result of the 83 frozen bank accounts of Thaksin's friends and family. Even though the majority of those accounts are being or have been unfrozen, I suspect that the PooYai are unwilling to "throw good money after bad" and may consider the Red struggle to be over, at least for the time being. If this is the case, I'm not surprised at the cannon fodder being abandoned.

Although it would be nice to see a genuine political movement dedicated to social equality, free speech and justice, I just don't see the Red Shirts as being convincing in that role. While those were certainly the aims of many of the more thoughtful and articulate of the mid- and lower ranking members of the Red Shirt movement, this article exposes the higher ranking members as being the mercenary hypocrites that I've always suspected that they were.

I agree with many of your points.

YES there is a need to urgently reduce the gap, raise the basic standard of living, policies which solidly generate more opprtunites, equal justice etc.

However the red shirts/UDD are not a credibe force to generate real discusion or action.

None of the red shirt leaders have even given a detailed presentation to their (paid) followers about the meaning of democracy / building democracy / protecting democrcay, etc etc. None of their leaders have even taken part in a moderated debate, etc etc etc. During their months on on-stage hate presntation they never once handed out meaningul/insightful literature.

They are nothing more than ruthless no morals low life who would do anything / use anybody as needed to get a big personal payout. It's well established that the red leaders are on a 100million Baht payout (each) if they can reinstall the paymaster.

They are simply a smokescreen (and not a very good one) for their paymaster. Their claims of 'no double standards' etc are a total farce, they claim they want equal justice for all, but then say they want their convicted massively corrupt leaders, who should be before the courts in the Hague for massive human reights abuses) pardoned simply because he is their paymaster, not even offering any valid/detailed logical and specific legal argument.

In regard to their jailed followers NOT being helped by the Puea Thai members, what else do you expect?

The vast majority of PT people have never made any form of presentation to anybody and in reality most of them are incapable of insightful comment, or contributing to the development of policies which would generate solid and meanginful change to address the problems and inequities in Thai society etc., and the sad final point is that they are not remotely interested, they just joined the thaksin gravy train for the spoils.

My adult Thai son recently asked the red shirt food vendors in our soi whats happening next with their protests, they confirmed that they have no idea who now leads the red shirts, and have never heard from anybody after their mob protests failed here in Bkk.

On numerous occasions, during the red protests, my son asked if they had any literature, they had nothing whatever, and they all freely admittedd numerous times that they atteneded every day for the payout, and often didn't even understand what the speeches were about, and confirmed that many of the live speeches were the same hate messages again and again.

My son asked 'why do the red leaders keep playing the doctored audio tape'? Their responc 'it's not dosctored it's real because jatuporn says it's not doctored. Deliberate lies and manipulation of fellow Thais, how despicable is that?

Also disturbing is that my son carefully asked several times what 'democracy' means. Their answer 'thaksin is democracy', my son quickly realized that they have been brainwashed to believe that the English word 'democracy' means sometimes like savior (thaksin is democracy (our savior)).

Quote: "...While those were certainly the aims of many of the more thoughtful and articulate of the mid- and lower ranking members of the Red Shirt movement, this article exposes the higher ranking members as being the mercenary hypocrites that I've always suspected that they were. ....". Whats also telling is that the few who are genuine and are capable of meaningfull and detailed (and non-violent) discussion, were very deliberately ignored by the scaly leaders.

". None of their leaders have even taken part in a moderated debate, etc etc etc. During their months on on-stage hate presntation they never once handed out meaningul/insightful literature.

They are nothing more than ruthless no morals low life who would do anything / use anybody as needed to get a big personal payout. It's well established that the red leaders are on a 100million Baht payout (each) if they can reinstall the paymaster."

You could say they learned that tactic frown the yellow shirts.

[tigermonkey]

If they didn't place themselves in the situation to be arrested, they wouldn't have been arrested.

All reds are not arrested are they? no. So to say these people who by their sheer numbers have

bogged down the system to process them, are suddenly unculpable as well as the Red Organization

that essentially put them in the wrong places and now apparently abandoned them,

YOu can't say it's just the system itself and not the individuals and their leaders that caused the problems for them.

No, it is not only the "sytem itself " that is causing the problem for them -- but the system is the main cause of the ongoing problem for them.

To my understanding, most of these people are being held without charges under the emergency decree. The emergency decree is the continuing cause of the problem.

I am uncertain if they would need to be released ( or charged) if the emergency decree were to be lifted. . I suspect that this is the case.

[taff33]

How about the YELLOW GANGSTERS with airport fiasco, lets hope the reds don't have wait as long as them before going to court

[ataloss]

QUOTE Now if say you had gone and burned down Siriraj Hospital , (as directed to by red leader Arisman in the youtube video) UNQUOTE.

Just did a search yet still am unable to discover what has become of Arisman. Can anyone shed some light pls. Cheers :jap:

[way2muchcoffee]

QUOTE Now if say you had gone and burned down Siriraj Hospital , (as directed to by red leader Arisman in the youtube video) UNQUOTE.

Just did a search yet still am unable to discover what has become of Arisman. Can anyone shed some light pls. Cheers :jap:

Arisman has disappeared. Rumors indicate that he is laying low in Cambodia.

[bitterbatter]

Did the editor mean to say that the guns and DAAD card were found in the construction site? Was he carrying a weapon to protect himself from rioters or just idiots. This is vague and needs to be written more clearly if you are saying "this is too much" What kind of weapon? a stick?

As for people being held in jail without due process. This is always bad no matter who is involved. I think most people here have never spent anytime in jail, and especially for something they didn't do or are getting overpunished for. It can really destroy the lives of people. The Thai legal system is usually more concerned with you being proven innocent rather then guilty, and this could take months and the end sentence may be much less then what is already served.

This whole situation should have been handled better. In the 21st century riot police need to use non-lethal weaponry instead of shooting bullets into clouds of smoke.

Both sides have a case of behaving badly, but the real victim is the country of Thailand and all its inhabitants. Things have changed here and the land of smiles is fading into the past. There is a shortage of leaders really taking a stand for decency and humanity. This is what will help Thailand return to her sweet nature.

[bitterbatter]

let me clarify. If the current govenment wishes to heal this rift in the Thai people then it need to step up and do the right thing. Swift and fair justice needs to be served. These people need to be allowed a voice and know that they are being heard. This will give the government more credibility and respect. Then things may start to go better. As it currently is, this looks like it will continue. The voice of the King is absent in these recent affairs and is needed or someone who can bring the hearts of the people together again.

[OzMick]

let me clarify. If the current govenment wishes to heal this rift in the Thai people then it need to step up and do the right thing. Swift and fair justice needs to be served. These people need to be allowed a voice and know that they are being heard. This will give the government more credibility and respect. Then things may start to go better. As it currently is, this looks like it will continue. The voice of the King is absent in these recent affairs and is needed or someone who can bring the hearts of the people together again.

Did you just arrive?

1/ in your previous post you refer to "riot police" using lethal weapons. Because of the size of the assembly, the army was used to disperse them. In their first try, they were using batons and riot shields - walking straight into a red shirt militia ambush.

2/ You say "..the current govenment................... need to step up and do the right thing." Step up or down? Don't you understand that trying to force the government to resign is why these people are in jail?elections are due next year, and the minority that wanted early elections will have all the voice they want then, as long as they can refrain from electoral fraud and violence.

[scorecard]

let me clarify. If the current govenment wishes to heal this rift in the Thai people then it need to step up and do the right thing. Swift and fair justice needs to be served. These people need to be allowed a voice and know that they are being heard. This will give the government more credibility and respect. Then things may start to go better. As it currently is, this looks like it will continue. The voice of the King is absent in these recent affairs and is needed or someone who can bring the hearts of the people together again.

Well sorry but the system doesn't work like that and you bring up a very important and very serious question: "Do you want the judiciary to be independant or do you want the judicuary to be under the control of the government of the day?"

Not sure if you realize that PM Abhisit is in fact a lawyer and I'll wager he thought long and hard before he made his recent statement that he would like the charges against the PAD to be speeded up.

[animatic]

If they didn't place themselves in the situation to be arrested, they wouldn't have been arrested.

All reds are not arrested are they? no. So to say these people who by their sheer numbers have

bogged down the system to process them, are suddenly unculpable as well as the Red Organization

that essentially put them in the wrong places and now apparently abandoned them,

YOu can't say it's just the system itself and not the individuals and their leaders that caused the problems for them.

No, it is not only the "sytem itself " that is causing the problem for them -- but the system is the main cause of the ongoing problem for them.

To my understanding, most of these people are being held without charges under the emergency decree. The emergency decree is the continuing cause of the problem.

I am uncertain if they would need to be released ( or charged) if the emergency decree were to be lifted. . I suspect that this is the case.

Let's try not to confuse the national organizational system

and the legal system needing to process those that insisted, against reasonable advice,

to be involved with an illegal rally that was imposed upon Bangkok and the nation, by a minority.

If the rally leadership hadn't tried REPEATEDLY to escalate the situation until violence was the only way

to end the impasse, there would not have been an SOE put in place. It's the Reds that made the SOE come to pass.

And these folks wouldn't be in jail awaiting legal processing. If the numbers to suddenly be thrown in the system

hadn't numbered in the hundreds, it wouldn't be so slow. No doubt also, the limited number of 'public advocates'

ie pro-bono lawyers available, wouldn't be stretched so thin, since the red leaders don't bother giving aid.

Bottom line:

having these poor pawns still in jail, aides the PTP/Red shirt's political aims

more than getting them out. And costs PTP nothing. Especially compared to keeping the rally afloat.

So to hear PTP whining about getting these people out of jail,

whom they talked into getting themselves in trouble in the first place,

and yet are not helping them one bit, signifies a new low in hypocrisy,

even in Thailand's corrupt and murky depths.

Not surprising a yellow sider brings this up, since the red side only wants to blame the government,

and pretend they have no abilities to end this and speed up the legal wheels. These poor pawns

are just being used as playing cards to win the pot, and mean nothing more to their so called leaders.

Edited August 8, 2010 by animatic

[scorecard]

This is an interesting article, if it is accurate. First of all, it's the first mention of beatings and a possible lynching that I've seen in mainstream Thai media. Secondly, I wonder about the stated disarray and disorganization of the Red Shirts that is mentioned... I can't help but think that this is probably the result of the 83 frozen bank accounts of Thaksin's friends and family. Even though the majority of those accounts are being or have been unfrozen, I suspect that the PooYai are unwilling to "throw good money after bad" and may consider the Red struggle to be over, at least for the time being. If this is the case, I'm not surprised at the cannon fodder being abandoned.

Although it would be nice to see a genuine political movement dedicated to social equality, free speech and justice, I just don't see the Red Shirts as being convincing in that role. While those were certainly the aims of many of the more thoughtful and articulate of the mid- and lower ranking members of the Red Shirt movement, this article exposes the higher ranking members as being the mercenary hypocrites that I've always suspected that they were.

Yes it would be nice

"to see a genuine political movement dedicated to social equality, free speech and justice"

I do not see that hapening in my life time. I firmly believe that we are on the road to it but there is more to it than changing your elected officals. I in no way am implying that there are no honest officials.

The bureaucracy would put a stop to any sudden change of attitude. The reality is the elected officials need the people to elect them and they need the bureaucracy to do the work. I believe that all the men down the line under elected officials got more graft money than the elected officials. That includes Thaksin.

This is a problem in every country some worse some better but still a problem.

I suggest there's some aligned points here:

- The vast majority of Thai politicians pay their deposit monies (often very large amounts) to join the 'old boys club', and to therefore get access to budget monies.

- The Thai politicians who join 'the old boys club' have no intention nor capability of contributing to discusions about taking Thailand forward, reducing the gap etc. Their personal morals are lower than low, many of them would sell their mother if they could a not too bad price.

- The 'old boys club' members currently still have enough power to keep the gravy train running fairly smoothly.

- The 'old boys club' members will fight hard and ruthless and long-term to stop anything which might pull down their 'old boys clubs' and the gravy train. Especially those who have not yet recouped their non-returnable deposit monies, let alone scooped in very large of jackpot monies.

- Very few intelligent, capable and sincere newbies will be inclined to enter whilst 'the old boys club' can continue to control and bleed the gravy train. Or put it another way, the sincere and capable Thais who could take Thailand forward and would like to do so (and there are many) don't want to be associated with 'the old boys clubs'.

[geriatrickid]

On what basis are some of you claiming that the Redshirts have abandoned their comrades? For the most part, the conclusion is reached by some because of the comments attributed to a lone government appointee. That speaks to the bias of these people more than it does to the actual situation. Considering the fact that the government has acted to freeze the bank accounts of anyone it suspects of being a red sympathizer, coupled with the "crackdown" on the redshirt organization and infrastructure, it is to be expected that it would be difficult to provide legal counsel and financial support to many of the protestors. I expect that lawyers acting to represent a redshirt in court would most likely be "blacklisted", particularly if their practice has any activity involving major business or government entities in Thailand. Does anyone honestly believe that a lawyer acting on behalf of some of the accused would be allowed to derive any billings from the government or some of the elite's businesses once he or she took on a redshirt client?

What happens to a lawyer in Thailand when he or she takes on an unpopular case? Probably the same thing that happens when a lawyer in the west takes on an unpopular case. Threats, insults and retaliation. Look at the petty and pathetic comments made about Mr. Amsterdam who is representing his client Mr. Thaksin. So much for the rights of an accused to retain competent counsel. One can condemn the crime and express disgust at the alleged crimes, but one must not interfere with due process and those members of the judiciary that seek to ensure that the judiciary functions. Defense counsel is an integral component of the judicial system, and I believe that the defense of many redshirts is being hindered.

It speaks to the ignorance and gullibility as well as hypocrisy of those that then use that situation to claim that the redshirt organization has abandoned everyone.

[march]

How about the YELLOW GANGSTERS with airport fiasco, lets hope the reds don't have wait as long as them before going to court

We have been waiting longer for the Red leaders to stand their trial for violent riots a year and a half before the airport, in 2007.

Hopefully the yellows don't have to wait as long as we've been waiting for the Reds.

[march]

Now if say you had gone and burned down Siriraj Hospital, (as directed to by red leader Arisman in the youtube video)

Just did a search yet still am unable to discover what has become of Arisman. Can anyone shed some light pls. Cheers :jap:

No change since this was posted 11 days ago.

All still fugitives. They are some of the most violent and aggressive of all Reds:

In addition to Thaksin, the DSI list of suspects included Veera Musigapong, Jatuporn Promphan, Natthawut Saikua, weng Tojirakarn, Waipot Arpornrat, Arisman Pongruangrong and Adisorn Piengket.

The others are Suporn Attawong, Kokaew Pikulthong, Kwanchai Praipana, Yoswarit Chuklom aka Jeng Dokchik, Nisit Sinthuprai, Karun Hosakul, Payap Panket, Wiphuthalaeng Pattanaphuthai, Phumkitti Sukchindathong, Suksek Pholteu, Charan Loypool, Amnat Intachote, Chayut Laicharoen, Sombat Makthong, Surachai Thewarat, Rachata Wongyod and Yongyuth Tuammee.

Out on the lam somewhere (many say to Cambodia), but anyway,

the ones from above that are running from the police are:

(ironically) Police Lieutenant-Colonel Thaksin,

(ironically, Pt II) Police Lieutenant-Colonel Waipot Arpornrat,

Bring A Bottle To Burn Bangkok Arisman Pongruangrong,

Issan Rambo Suporn Attawong,

I Love Udon Thani So Much I Will Kill Kwanchai Praipana,

and

Let's Go Raid A Hospital Full of Elderly Patients Payap Panket

[march]

On what basis are some of you claiming that the Redshirts have abandoned their comrades?

They haven't provided them with lawyers nor offered to pay bail or even request bail.

This is while the multiple, multiple leaders are afforded some of the highest level of attorneys in Thailand. They also provided legal representation for the Red Bombers that were deported by Cambodia.

The Red lawyers are numerous and I wouldn't think any of them are concerned one iota about the ramifications of representing Reds. These are high-powered lawyers who likely have multiple caseloads with just the Reds alone for the next decade.

Granted, they aren't always the best, however, as exemplified by putting Thaksin's convicted and imprisoned pastry-box briber lawyer back on the payroll after his sentence was completed. He's not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree.

[rubl]

No change since this was posted 11 days ago.

All still fugitives. They are some of the most violent and aggressive of all Reds:

Out on the lam somewhere (many say to Cambodia), but anyway,

the ones from above that are running from the police are:

(ironically) Police Lieutenant-Colonel Thaksin,

(ironically, Pt II) Police Lieutenant-Colonel Waipot Arpornrat,

Bring A Bottle To Burn Bangkok Arisman Pongruangrong,

Issan Rambo Suporn Attawong,

I Love Udon Thani So Much I Will Kill Kwanchai Praipana,

and

Let's Go Raid A Hospital Full of Elderly Patients Payap Panket

Probably a moot point, but are these fugitives 'reds' or 'UDD'? I may be mistaken, but I tend to see 'reds' as the original pro-entitlement protesters and UDD as organized to bring back our beloved leader K. Thaksin.

[march]

No change since this was posted 11 days ago.

All still fugitives. They are some of the most violent and aggressive of all Reds:

Out on the lam somewhere (many say to Cambodia), but anyway,

the ones from above that are running from the police are:

(ironically) Police Lieutenant-Colonel Thaksin,

(ironically, Pt II) Police Lieutenant-Colonel Waipot Arpornrat,

Bring A Bottle To Burn Bangkok Arisman Pongruangrong,

Issan Rambo Suporn Attawong,

I Love Udon Thani So Much I Will Kill Kwanchai Praipana,

and

Let's Go Raid A Hospital Full of Elderly Patients Payap Panket

Probably a moot point, but are these fugitives 'reds' or 'UDD'? I may be mistaken, but I tend to see 'reds' as the original pro-entitlement protesters and UDD as organized to bring back our beloved leader K. Thaksin.

Reds = UDD

UDD = Reds

Interchangeable and same-same

[OzMick]

On what basis are some of you claiming that the Redshirts have abandoned their comrades? For the most part, the conclusion is reached by some because of the comments attributed to a lone government appointee. That speaks to the bias of these people more than it does to the actual situation. Considering the fact that the government has acted to freeze the bank accounts of anyone it suspects of being a red sympathizer, coupled with the "crackdown" on the redshirt organization and infrastructure, it is to be expected that it would be difficult to provide legal counsel and financial support to many of the protestors. I expect that lawyers acting to represent a redshirt in court would most likely be "blacklisted", particularly if their practice has any activity involving major business or government entities in Thailand. Does anyone honestly believe that a lawyer acting on behalf of some of the accused would be allowed to derive any billings from the government or some of the elite's businesses once he or she took on a redshirt client?

What happens to a lawyer in Thailand when he or she takes on an unpopular case? Probably the same thing that happens when a lawyer in the west takes on an unpopular case. Threats, insults and retaliation. Look at the petty and pathetic comments made about Mr. Amsterdam who is representing his client Mr. Thaksin. So much for the rights of an accused to retain competent counsel. One can condemn the crime and express disgust at the alleged crimes, but one must not interfere with due process and those members of the judiciary that seek to ensure that the judiciary functions. Defense counsel is an integral component of the judicial system, and I believe that the defense of many redshirts is being hindered.

It speaks to the ignorance and gullibility as well as hypocrisy of those that then use that situation to claim that the redshirt organization has abandoned everyone.

1/ do you think the government believes there is only 83 red sympathizers?

2/ The article states that the Law Society has agreed to assist poor red detainees, I assume as pro bono clients

3/ Mr Somtow claims that is is "futile" to expect assistance from PTP

4/ What makes you think that Mr Amsterdam is a competent counsel - his only claim to fame is as a spin-doctor

[rubl]

Probably a moot point, but are these fugitives 'reds' or 'UDD'? I may be mistaken, but I tend to see 'reds' as the original pro-entitlement protesters and UDD as organized to bring back our beloved leader K. Thaksin.

Reds = UDD

UDD = Reds

Interchangeable and same-same

A bit too easy answer. There has been an legitimate, grassroots organization striving for self-entitlement of the rural poor. It's only with the 'activities in 2009 / 2010 that UDD and red's may have become synonyms, I assume.

[march]

Probably a moot point, but are these fugitives 'reds' or 'UDD'? I may be mistaken, but I tend to see 'reds' as the original pro-entitlement protesters and UDD as organized to bring back our beloved leader K. Thaksin.

Reds = UDD

UDD = Reds

Interchangeable and same-same

A bit too easy answer. There has been an legitimate, grassroots organization striving for self-entitlement of the rural poor. It's only with the 'activities in 2009 / 2010 that UDD and red's may have become synonyms, I assume.

AFAIK the "Reds" have never been a formally-named organization in and of itself. They have always been the "nickname" utilized by UDD (which has been under a number of other names, eg. PTV and DAAD).

Additionally, the UDD Leaders going back to July 2007 violent and bloody attack are the same "Red" leaders of 2010,

for example:

The Nation - 23 July 2007

Meanwhile reports said police are preparing evidence and document to press charges against eight leaders of the rally, including Dr Weng Tojirakarn, Veera Musikapong and Jakrapob Penkair.

[march]

Granted, at the time of their onslaught at Prem's house on July 22, 2007 the UDD/Reds then were a mix of shirts.

From photos of that time, we can see that some wore Red shirts:

Some wore no shirts:

And some of them even wore yellow shirts:

But in the end, they were all UDD, who later assumed the moniker "Red Shirts."

Irregardless of their name, they've been violent for a long time.

Edited August 8, 2010 by march

[animatic]

Probably a moot point, but are these fugitives 'reds' or 'UDD'? I may be mistaken, but I tend to see 'reds' as the original pro-entitlement protesters and UDD as organized to bring back our beloved leader K. Thaksin.

Reds = UDD

UDD = Reds

Interchangeable and same-same

A bit too easy answer. There has been an legitimate, grassroots organization striving for self-entitlement of the rural poor. It's only with the 'activities in 2009 / 2010 that UDD and red's may have become synonyms, I assume.

Let's just think back to August 2007 and Samak's attempt to create an S.O.E. to take greater power,

and the PPP Members of Parliament at the Red UDD DAAD rally in the park providing free alcohol

and serious instigation, before trailing along with a Red Shirt wearing rabble to attack the PAD at the

Bridge location, and give Samak a excuse for a SOE. Of course the PPP guys stopped trailing when

it got too close to an actual fight scene.

That the Army refused to accept the SOE, because they were seeing it as obviously an incident

TOTALLY created by PPP, to make the 'visible social problem', for them to solve in a power grab.

A manufactured violent incident to try and scare off PAD, or silence them with greater powers.

S.O.P. for UDD and DAAD and their predecessor the Caravan Of The Poor. Violence against

those not on their message and political side. Remember them invading The Nation compound.

One Red died during the attack on PAD lines, that was initiated SOLELY by UDD, DAAD and PPP persons.

The violence from that side is long term and remorseless,

this has always been about taking power for their masters.

Edited August 8, 2010 by animatic

[MAJIC]

Im glad that Thaksin had these people to do his dirty work, and now they can see that when the going got tough, he dropped them like a hot iron. The man is gonna reap the whirlwind when his karma comes calling.

Yes,and perhaps now they will understand that they were just pawns,and only useful while the game was in play.

[brahmburgers]

Of course they were abandoned, they were paid to riot, burn buildings, and kill civilians and soldiers, all in the name of getting back Thaksin's money, a pardon, and enriching his kleptocrats. They did what they were told, and now their job is to be in prison and to be used as political propaganda.

Not sure about '...their job is to be in prison...', but I agree with the gist of what you say.

They're the little people. Thaksin and his friends/family indirectly trickle money down to the underlings. Fat cats wanted numbers - on the streets clamoring. The little peoples' use is expended, so now they're expendable. They simple don't matter a flea's fart to Thaksin's friends and family. When the next red rally gets revved up, Thaksin's cronies will again tie a string to a 100 baht bill and drag it through areas where the downtrodden hang out, and see who follows to the rally site.

Keep an eye out for a new book called 'Guarded Conversations' which parodies the antics of 'Sintax' (guess who?) and the people he conspires with to trample the peons.

[geriatrickid]

On what basis are some of you claiming that the Redshirts have abandoned their comrades?

They haven't provided them with lawyers nor offered to pay bail or even request bail. This is while the multiple, multiple leaders are afforded some of the highest level of attorneys in Thailand. They also provided legal representation for the Red Bombers that were deported by Cambodia. The Red lawyers are numerous and I wouldn't think any of them are concerned one iota about the ramifications of representing Reds. These are high-powered lawyers who likely have multiple caseloads with just the Reds alone for the next decade.

Granted, they aren't always the best, however, as exemplified by putting Thaksin's convicted and imprisoned pastry-box briber lawyer back on the payroll after his sentence was completed. He's not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree.

You have not addressed the points I raised in my original statement. What part of the bank account freezing do you not understand? Anyone accused of having any sort of relationship with the redshirts is more than likely to have had his/her bank account frozen. The accused parties are being told that the police are investigating and that if there is nothing wrong, the freeze will be ended. Who are these high powered lawyers you are refering to? Please name a few of them and the specific reason why they are high powered.

There have been enough public statements and actions taken to suggest that there is a concerted effort afoot to discourage legal counsel representation. Don't start making claims as to the "numerous" lawyers available to the redshirts when you haven't the slightest clue as to the current working environment for these lawyers. They are putting their lives and their families lives at risk when they take these cases. You are making your assumptions on what facts? Who are these lawyers that are available?

On what basis are some of you claiming that the Redshirts have abandoned their comrades? For the most part, the conclusion is reached by some because of the comments attributed to a lone government appointee. That speaks to the bias of these people more than it does to the actual situation. Considering the fact that the government has acted to freeze the bank accounts of anyone it suspects of being a red sympathizer, coupled with the "crackdown" on the redshirt organization and infrastructure, it is to be expected that it would be difficult to provide legal counsel and financial support to many of the protestors. I expect that lawyers acting to represent a redshirt in court would most likely be "blacklisted", particularly if their practice has any activity involving major business or government entities in Thailand. Does anyone honestly believe that a lawyer acting on behalf of some of the accused would be allowed to derive any billings from the government or some of the elite's businesses once he or she took on a redshirt client?

What happens to a lawyer in Thailand when he or she takes on an unpopular case? Probably the same thing that happens when a lawyer in the west takes on an unpopular case. Threats, insults and retaliation. Look at the petty and pathetic comments made about Mr. Amsterdam who is representing his client Mr. Thaksin. So much for the rights of an accused to retain competent counsel. One can condemn the crime and express disgust at the alleged crimes, but one must not interfere with due process and those members of the judiciary that seek to ensure that the judiciary functions. Defense counsel is an integral component of the judicial system, and I believe that the defense of many redshirts is being hindered.

It speaks to the ignorance and gullibility as well as hypocrisy of those that then use that situation to claim that the redshirt organization has abandoned everyone.

1/ do you think the government believes there is only 83 red sympathizers?

2/ The article states that the Law Society has agreed to assist poor red detainees, I assume as pro bono clients

3/ Mr Somtow claims that is is "futile" to expect assistance from PTP

4/ What makes you think that Mr Amsterdam is a competent counsel - his only claim to fame is as a spin-doctor

1. No I do not believe that the government believes there are only 83 red sympathizers, otherwise, there wouldn't have been a wholescale investigation of bank accounts and freezes.

There are a number of measures in place that allow the government to freeze bank transactions.

2. Because the article says the Law Council has agreed to assists some detainees, does not mean that it will happen. You assume as pro bono clients? Do not assume anything of the kind. Why would a redshirt draw a competent defense counsel when an impoverished accused on any given day, cannot even obtain basic defense counsel access? This isn't the west where there is a form of limited legal aid.

3. It is not up to the PTP to lead the defense team. There is no point in pointing fingers when those charged are precluded from retaining legal counsel because funds are blocked and lawyers are threatened and intimidated. Have a look at who is responsible for the bulk of commercial legal activity in Thailand. Now, of those 50 largest firms, just how many would have lawyers willing to defend redshirts? Do you not think some people are sensitive to the views of certain leading wealthy families?

4. Who are you to question Robert Amsterdam's competence? When was the last human rights case you litigated before an international court or a national court? One may not agree with Mr. Amsterdam, but when you make a judgement on his skills as a legal adviser when you have zero expertise and have not read any of his previous case arguments, it indicates your personal bias. Lwyers often taken on unpalatable cases. That's part of the obligation when one takes the oath as an officer of the court. You can hate the subject matter of the case, but that is not Mr. Amsterdam's doing.

[thaihome]

Probably a moot point, but are these fugitives 'reds' or 'UDD'? I may be mistaken, but I tend to see 'reds' as the original pro-entitlement protesters and UDD as organized to bring back our beloved leader K. Thaksin.

Reds = UDD

UDD = Reds

Interchangeable and same-same

A bit too easy answer. There has been an legitimate, grassroots organization striving for self-entitlement of the rural poor. It's only with the 'activities in 2009 / 2010 that UDD and red's may have become synonyms, I assume.

There are a number of grassroots organizations working on behalf of the rural poor. Many of the UDD leadership have in the past participated in suppressing these, as they are a threat to the provincial strongmen and local faction leaders (also the UDD leadership) dominance of the rural poor.

TH

[hammered]

People shouldnt be surprised about this. The reds ahve history of abandoing their people. The torpedo was left to rot and even complained about it. At one point the taxi driver leader was left unable to sort out bail until bizarrely Newin did it for him. The bombers returned from Cambodia are widely seen as having been set up by their own.

In a poltical camapaign it helps to have "martyrs" and "victims" in jail rather than free and out. Realpolitik.

Amsterdam is a paid player who has taken a side in the power struggle and as such anything coming form him must be viewed with this in mind. This isnt about truth but about creating "truth". That is modern day politics where a complete fabrication is just as likely to end up being viewed as "truth" by the people. Modern propaganda and media are something that would have Goebbels drueling. In the final analysis veryone is going to believe what they want depending on their bias or the ease with which they are swayed by propaganda and with a huge majority that is usally easy to do.

[hammered]

Probably a moot point, but are these fugitives 'reds' or 'UDD'? I may be mistaken, but I tend to see 'reds' as the original pro-entitlement protesters and UDD as organized to bring back our beloved leader K. Thaksin.

Reds = UDD

UDD = Reds

Interchangeable and same-same

A bit too easy answer. There has been an legitimate, grassroots organization striving for self-entitlement of the rural poor. It's only with the 'activities in 2009 / 2010 that UDD and red's may have become synonyms, I assume.

There are a number of grassroots organizations working on behalf of the rural poor. Many of the UDD leadership have in the past participated in suppressing these, as they are a threat to the provincial strongmen and local faction leaders (also the UDD leadership) dominance of the rural poor.

TH

Very very true.

And something many forget is that when Thaksin came to power one of the first things he did was destroy many long running traditional grassroots groups, that had campaigned on issues and not for or against any particular party, and replace them with his own creations.