Farangs Calling Thai'S Racist...

[sillyman99]

If Thai people were as racist and bigoted........................................ I'd be concerned.

I just can't see that happening though.

Try to read more threads on the forum or even get out more (in Thailand) and you might be able to see that, if not, then it might depend from the very thick dark lenses i see on the pic you are using

I'd take a bet that I have been out a lot more in Thailand than you have, and it's by reading threads on this site that many of you guys are influenced, even if the stories are totally false, you want to believe that Thai people are against you, even if they're not.

I've lived in Thailand since 1990 and if I was as unhappy as most of the posters here appear to be, I'd have been gone long ago.

[surayu]

....

So can i ask what are your thought when you read the news about all these gangs of criminals that when they get caught they claim they where targeting only "farangs" , just a lie? i don't think everybody here is thinking that they are all against us, what we are trying to say is that unfortunately this anti-foreigners attitude is well widespread all over the country in various degrees, from the law regulations to the mom and pop stores around the corner, is everywhere, to claim this phenomenom just doesn't exist surely doesn't help.

[prometheus]

Racism ? you are taking a slight xenophobe to the next level. Real racism, they would not let you be in a restaurant, let you sit in a bus or drive a car around and call you derogatory names at you while you are walking on the street. They would say that you have inferior blood and should not mix it with theirs. Obviously at public places where they gather,for example a park, they would put a sign up to make sure that inferior race like you do not cross into their pleasant spot and destroy the peace and harmony of their lives.

All of those which I have mentioned, have occured in United States, Germany, Hong Kong and so on at one point in the unpleasant history.

Having criminals targeting foreigner is nothing strange, these guys do not target "farang" for them being white but it was for their money, they would very well target a Hongkong or Japanese visitor who they assume have lots of money as tourists. We should not put it to the extreme here, there is a level of xenophobia but it is not the aggressive kind of racism.

[surayu]

Having criminals targeting foreigner is nothing strange, these guys do not target "farang" for them being white but it was for their money, they would very well target a Hongkong or Japanese visitor who they assume have lots of money as tourists. We should not put it to the extreme here, there is a level of xenophobia but it is not the aggressive kind of racism.

FYI someone can still be defined as a racist even if discriminates to more then just another race, the only person which is mentioning the "aggressive kind of racism" or extreme here seems to be yourself, you can still be a racist with a smile on your face.....

[AmeriThai]

FYI someone can still be defined as a racist even if discriminates to more then just another race, the only person which is mentioning the "aggressive kind of racism" or extreme here seems to be yourself, you can still be a racist with a smile on your face.....

The kind of criminals you're talking about would have no qualms in targeting other Thais as well if there's something to be gained by it. They're equal opportunity criminals, not racists.

[surayu]

The kind of criminals you're talking about would have no qualms in targeting other Thais as well if there's something to be gained by it. They're equal opportunity criminals, not racists.

I really would like to agree with your version but unfortunately what those criminals said and what it came out of the investigations, so the facts, are not in favour of this theory, now please nobody steps in to tell me that all thais are poor people and have nothing worthed to steal as i am expecting it

[pmcd8243]

I saw a Thai movie a few years ago. At one point a western male character fell down. A Thai man checks on him and his friend says in Thai"Is he OK?" The first Thai guy says in Thai, " No, he's still a farang." The Thai audience in the theater laughed very loudly at this. When a Thai person uses the term farang, unless he is refering to a French national, it is always derogatory, mean spirited, bigoted and racist. You can believe anything you want but this is a fact.

P

Edited August 18, 2010 by pmcd8243

[Jingthing]

I saw a Thai movie a few years ago. At one point a western male character fell down. A Thai man checks on him and his friend says in Thai"Is he OK?" The first Thai guy says in Thai, " No, his still a farang." The Thai audience in the theater laughed very loudly at this. When a Thai person uses the term farang, unless he is refering to a French national, it is always derogatory, mean spirited, bigoted and racist. You can believe anything you want but this is a fact.

P

The Thai word farang and the Thai word for French national is in no way the same word.

[Jingthing]

Racism ? you are taking a slight xenophobe to the next level ...

There is little you could describe as "slight" about Thai xenophobia.

[prometheus]

I am sorry a lot of people here seems to have been through unpleasant experience in Thailand and perhaps feel insulted by some people. What would be a solution then if we are to make less of this experience ? perhaps a more open border control, such as waiving visa/visa on arrival for Thai people to go abroad into EU, United States, Australia ? If people get to travel and meet more of the outside world perhaps it will be better.

[AmeriThai]

The kind of criminals you're talking about would have no qualms in targeting other Thais as well if there's something to be gained by it. They're equal opportunity criminals, not racists.

I really would like to agree with your version but unfortunately what those criminals said and what it came out of the investigations, so the facts, are not in favour of this theory, now please nobody steps in to tell me that all thais are poor people and have nothing worthed to steal as i am expecting it

I'm not saying there's no racism at all, but just because the "news" said some thugs claimed they were targeting farangs, doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't go after Thais as well if there was enough to gain by it. To me, in that particular example, targeting farangs (or foreigners) sounds more like they were basing it on a perceived opportunity with the idea that farangs = money. It seems to me that there's a view that somehow racism and discrimination mean the same thing. A racist certainly discriminates. But discrimination doesn't always mean racism. Even if the thugs were being racists, it's kind of hard to take a small example like that and apply it to Thais in general. What I find more common about some Thais, perhaps many, is a sense of being better than others because of nationalism. If it was strictly a matter of racism, then why would Thais discriminate against people from bordering countries?

[darhut]

I saw a Thai movie a few years ago. At one point a western male character fell down. A Thai man checks on him and his friend says in Thai"Is he OK?" The first Thai guy says in Thai, " No, his still a farang." The Thai audience in the theater laughed very loudly at this. When a Thai person uses the term farang, unless he is refering to a French national, it is always derogatory, mean spirited, bigoted and racist. You can believe anything you want but this is a fact.

P

The Thai word farang and the Thai word for French national is in no way the same word.

"ORIGIN OF THE WORD "FARANG"

A wide-spread belief in Thailand is that the word "farang" (Caucasian)

is derived from the French word "francais". This derivation is implausible

on phonetic and historical grounds. It is in fact a popular misconception.

It is true, however, that these words have the same ultimate source.

The word is attested in various forms in languages in Europe, Africa,

the Middle East, South Asia, and Southeast Asia. It is clear that the

word orginated as "Frank" in Europe and spread eastwards along Muslim

trade routes.

Thai most likely borrowed the word from influential Muslim Persian or

Indian traders in the 17th century or even earlier. The Persian word was

"farangg". The term probably was used to refer to early Portuguese

traders and subsequently to all Europeans (ie., non-Muslims).

It is possible that the Thai word "farangset" ("French") is a blend

of the word "farang" and the French word "francais", ie., "farangset" is

actually derived from "farang", not vice versa. Certainly, the word

"farang" existed prior to, and independently of, "farangset"."

[maccaroni man]

I am sorry a lot of people here seems to have been through unpleasant experience in Thailand and perhaps feel insulted by some people. What would be a solution then if we are to make less of this experience ? perhaps a more open border control, such as waiving visa/visa on arrival for Thai people to go abroad into EU, United States, Australia ? If people get to travel and meet more of the outside world perhaps it will be better.

[Heng]

Sorry, that's how I read it. After all, I can't think of many instances of anti-discrimination actions in Thailand, either by the government or large groups of individuals. Seems to me the whole concept is pretty much not on Thai peoples' radar.

Didn't say it wasn't significant. It's just a part of human nature. Perhaps the difference here is that locals don't really pretend it doesn't exist through some kind of made up politically correct social construct.

[phetaroi]

Sorry, that's how I read it. After all, I can't think of many instances of anti-discrimination actions in Thailand, either by the government or large groups of individuals. Seems to me the whole concept is pretty much not on Thai peoples' radar.

Didn't say it wasn't significant. It's just a part of human nature. Perhaps the difference here is that locals don't really pretend it doesn't exist through some kind of made up politically correct social construct.

You see, once again, in my opinion, you're trying to cover up the problem. You appear to be saying -- it's a problem, but we aren't going to be politically correct, instead we'll continue to be discriminatory.

Try answering these two questions without bringing anything else into the discussion:

1. Do Thais tend to discriminate against certain groups of people?

2. Is discrimination right or wrong?

[Spee]

Try answering these two questions without bringing anything else into the discussion:

1. Do Thais tend to discriminate against certain groups of people?

2. Is discrimination right or wrong?

As long as we're clear that discrimination is not racism and vice versa.

Personally, I think racism is the modern day slur du jour, and is probably misused and misdefined more often than not. Discrimination is not far behind. Each is often confused with the other, even though they are far from being synonyms.

Would you consider the "no-gaijin" policy sometimes seen around Japan to be racism or discrimination? If you think it's the former and not the latter, I rest my case.

[canuckamuck]

You see, once again, in my opinion, you're trying to cover up the problem. You appear to be saying -- it's a problem, but we aren't going to be politically correct, instead we'll continue to be discriminatory.

Try answering these two questions without bringing anything else into the discussion:

1. Do Thais tend to discriminate against certain groups of people?

2. Is discrimination right or wrong?

Good points Phetaroi

I see the major malfunction in this discussion is usage of the very unspecific term racism.

If changed to discrimination, there are unending examples of of unfair discrimination here in Thailand which would be strongly condemned in most western countries. But in Thailand it is simply the way it is. In some ways we are overboard in the west in our attitude toward discrimination. But I believe that it is an error on the side of good intention. To error on the other side is often cruel and oppressive. But the world is unfair. For me the main thing is to rise above doing what the other guy does.

[Ulysses G.]

Try answering these two questions without bringing anything else into the discussion:

1. Do Thais tend to discriminate against certain groups of people?

2. Is discrimination right or wrong?

Please tell us a place with no discrimination,

[Jingthing]

Try answering these two questions without bringing anything else into the discussion:

1. Do Thais tend to discriminate against certain groups of people?

2. Is discrimination right or wrong?

As long as we're clear that discrimination is not racism and vice versa.

Personally, I think racism is the modern day slur du jour, and is probably misused and misdefined more often than not. Discrimination is not far behind. Each is often confused with the other, even though they are far from being synonyms.

Would you consider the "no-gaijin" policy sometimes seen around Japan to be racism or discrimination? If you think it's the former and not the latter, I rest my case.

You may want to consider looking up the definitions of words before you embarrass yourself any further.

racism

1.

Main Entry: rac·ism

Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\

Function: noun

Date: 1933

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

[mauGR1]

Try answering these two questions without bringing anything else into the discussion:

1. Do Thais tend to discriminate against certain groups of people?

2. Is discrimination right or wrong?

Please tell us a place with no discrimination,

The Moon ?

[CDNinLOS]

To further JT's definition. I believe all three are seen here in Thailand.

Racism

Is any action or attitude, conscious or unconscious, that subordinates an individual or group based on skin colour or race. It can be enacted individually or institutionally.

Source: US Civil Rights Commission

Institutional Racism

A system of procedures/patterns in all walks of life, i.e. education, housing, businesses, employment, professional associations, religion, media, etc., whose effect is to perpetuate and maintain the power, influence and well-being of one group over another. It originates in the operation of established and respected forces in the society; and thus receives far less public condemnation than does individual racism. Although more subtle than individual racism, it is more destructive of humanity.

Sources: Various Publications

Racial Discrimination

To treat differently a person or group of people based on their racial origins. Power is a necessary precondition, for it depends on the ability to give or withhold social benefits, facilities, services, opportunities etc., from someone who should be entitled to them, and are denied on the basis of race, colour or national origin.

Sources- The Ideology of Racism

[Heng]

Sorry, that's how I read it. After all, I can't think of many instances of anti-discrimination actions in Thailand, either by the government or large groups of individuals. Seems to me the whole concept is pretty much not on Thai peoples' radar.

Didn't say it wasn't significant. It's just a part of human nature. Perhaps the difference here is that locals don't really pretend it doesn't exist through some kind of made up politically correct social construct.

You see, once again, in my opinion, you're trying to cover up the problem. You appear to be saying -- it's a problem, but we aren't going to be politically correct, instead we'll continue to be discriminatory.

Try answering these two questions without bringing anything else into the discussion:

1. Do Thais tend to discriminate against certain groups of people?

2. Is discrimination right or wrong?

Not covering anything up.

1. Absolutely.

2. It's natural, no more right or wrong than my preference for bourbon which means scotch has no place...never mind job or visa opportunities in my home.

[Berkshire]

Sorry, that's how I read it. After all, I can't think of many instances of anti-discrimination actions in Thailand, either by the government or large groups of individuals. Seems to me the whole concept is pretty much not on Thai peoples' radar.

Didn't say it wasn't significant. It's just a part of human nature. Perhaps the difference here is that locals don't really pretend it doesn't exist through some kind of made up politically correct social construct.

The thing is, Mr. Heng, there's an underlying agenda when farangs use the word "racist." That's the point I'm getting at. The term "racist" in the context of the western vernacular (or to be more specific, American) denotes someone clouded with hatred, possessing of anti-social behavior, in some cases, downright evil. Or to put it simply, a bad person. What the Thais are doing, as you correctly pointed out--but will be/already has been misinterpreted--is recognizing people who are different and treating them accordingly. Not worse than other Thais, just "differently." Recognizing someone who's different is not the same as being racist. Someone already pointed out that there are jobs out there that pays a farang more than a Thai for doing essentially the same thing. Is that racism towards the farang? I would think not.

Do you want farangs to go around believing that Thais are racist? It's not a positive thing. And it provides the Thai-haters with ammunition to attack the Thais for what most would consider irrational and abhorrent behavior. There are already farangs in Thailand who believe that Thais are racist. Perhaps it relieves them of all responsibility for their own personal behavior, having that as an out. "I can treat the Thais like crap because it's justified--they're racist and hate me for my skin color." I'd be the last to defend truly racist behavior because I hate that crap. Always have. Racism is not a normal thing. Most Americans would not consider themselves racist. Even the folks in Arizona (recent immigration law issues) would say they're not racist. So to call Thais racists is not only inaccurate, it's obscene. It would seem that you, as a Thai person with some background in western cultures, would see this.

[wintermute]

\

Do you want farangs to go around believing that Thais are racist? It's not a positive thing. And it provides the Thai-haters with ammunition to attack the Thais for what most would consider irrational and abhorrent behavior. There are already farangs in Thailand who believe that Thais are racist. Perhaps it relieves them of all responsibility for their own personal behavior, having that as an out. "I can treat the Thais like crap because it's justified--they're racist and hate me for my skin color." I'd be the last to defend truly racist behavior because I hate that crap. Always have. Racism is not a normal thing. Most Americans would not consider themselves racist. Even the folks in Arizona (recent immigration law issues) would say they're not racist. So to call Thais racists is not only inaccurate, it's obscene. It would seem that you, as a Thai person with some background in western cultures, would see this.

Wow you hit this nail right on the head. I've always thought people crying about racist Thais were just whiners anyhow. The most you'll get from a Thai is probably the cold shoulder on social occasions if you don't speak Thai. On the other hand in many other countries (including the U.S.) you can literally be killed or physically assaulted walking down the street by being a different color. This sort of thing is almost unheard in Thailand except for rare occasions that almost always make the news. Most of the crimes against foreigners are economic ones.. petty crooks see an opportunity there and take it. Most Thai people are accepting enough provided that you follow the cultural rules.

[sarahsbloke]

Many Thais clearly discriminate against people based on the colour of their skin and/or their ethnic background. This fits every definition of racism ever invented.

Do they only discriminate against white people?

I don't think so, they seem to be equal opportunity racists to me.

Even those whites calling other whites "Farang" are clearly racists.

This whole thread should be closed as those arguing otherwise are either insane/stupid or trolling.

Anyway, I have just added Berkshire to my Ignore list for being unbearably daft.

I hope he returns the honour.

Edited August 19, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[bonobo]

Do you want  farangs to go around believing that Thais are racist?  It's not a positive thing.  And it provides the Thai-haters with ammunition to attack the Thais for what most would consider irrational and abhorrent  behavior.  There are already farangs in Thailand who believe that Thais are racist.  Perhaps it relieves them of all responsibility for their own personal  behavior, having that as an out.  "I can treat the Thais like crap  because it's justified--they're racist and hate me for my skin  color."  I'd be the last to defend truly racist behavior because I hate  that crap.  Always have.  Racism is not a normal thing.  Most Americans would not consider  themselves racist.  Even the folks in Arizona (recent immigration law  issues) would say they're not racist.  So to call Thais racists is not only  inaccurate, it's obscene.  It would seem that you, as a Thai person with some background in western cultures, would see this.

Is it important what foreigners go around believing or the facts of the matter?

I understand the point you  made that the term "racist" does not carry the connotation in Thailand that is carries in the West.  And whether people consider themselves racist or not is actually irrelevant.  The relevance is whether they actually perceive the world in racist views and more importantly, act on them.  I remember back in 1978 asking some Japanese Self Defense Force cadets about the Ainu and racism in Japan, and I received very earnest and well-meaning replies that they weren't racist, it was just that there were no Ainu officers in the military because they weren't, as a people, mentally capable of doing the job.

However, I am not sure how you can keep asserting that Thais are not racist.  Racism is pretty much part of the human condition.  I would hazard a guess that pretty much all cultures are racist to an extent.  It is just that some societies have stronger safeguards in place to keep racism more of a concept than a discriminatory practice.

I dislike racism as well, but it is a "normal thing."  Humans tend to be an "us vs. them" creature, as are most other mammals, for that matter.  I believe there have been many examples given in this thread which pretty much confirm that Thais are in fact racist.  Just as are Americans, Germans, Brazilians, Syrians, Chinese, Nigerians--you get the picture.  I don't think Thais are among the most racist demographic group.  It is just that when compared to Americans, as the nationality to which you keep referring, racism has become such a big bugaboo that most people hide their racist views most of the time, while Thais don't seem to feel hiding those views is that important.  

Not just in racism, though.  I have seen it in other contexts.  How many Americans would go up to a stranger and remark on how fat that person is?  Not many when compared to Thais.  

There are individuals who are not racist or not very racist.  But as a whole, humans, to include Thais, have racist tendencies.  Thais are members of the human race, just like everyone else, so you would expect them to have the same strengths and weaknesses all of us, as a species, exhibit.

[wintermute]

Not just in racism, though. I have seen it in other contexts. How many Americans would go up to a stranger and remark on how fat that person is? Not many when compared to Thais.

Thais are not being offensive when they make remarks about physical characteristics like this though. I've seen them make similar comments about certain ultra high ranking members of Thai society about their size and weight in a matter of fact way. It's not considered the sort of comments to cause loss of face.

There are individuals who are not racist or not very racist. But as a whole, humans, to include Thais, have racist tendencies. Thais are members of the human race, just like everyone else, so you would expect them to have the same strengths and weaknesses all of us, as a species, exhibit.

Be that as it may I do think that when racism rears its ugly head in the west (U.S. mainly) it tends to explode in violence and homicide. I don't see this sort of thing nearly as much in a country like Thailand..it's still comparably rare.

[bonobo]

Not just in racism, though.  I have seen it in other contexts.  How many Americans would go up to a stranger and remark on how fat that person is?  Not many when compared to Thais.  

Thais are not being offensive when they make remarks about physical characteristics like this though. I've seen them make similar comments about certain ultra high ranking members of Thai society about their size and weight in a matter of fact way. It's not considered the sort of comments to cause loss of face.

There are individuals who are not racist or not very racist.  But as a whole, humans, to include Thais, have racist tendencies.  Thais are members of the human race, just like everyone else, so you would expect them to have the same strengths and weaknesses all of us, as a species, exhibit.

Be that as it may I do think that when racism rears its ugly head in the west (U.S. mainly) it tends to explode in violence and homicide. I don't see this sort of thing nearly as much in a country like Thailand..it's still comparably rare.

Their intention on calling someone fat may not be offensive.  But it can be taken that way by the recipient.  I do know of Thais who have run away in tears after this, much to the surprise of the person making the comment. Regardless, the point is that Thais do not seem to have the same societal governors for this type of thing as most cultures in the West have.  I am not saying this is good or bad, just different,

As far as erupting into violence, well history shows us that Thais can do that.  But the question at hand is not whether Thais exhibit racism in the same way as Westerners, Africans, other Asians, or whatever.  The question is whether Thais are racist at all.

(And out of curiosity, why do you and Berkshire keep referring to the US as the epitome and only example of racism?  In recent times, there have been many more publicized cases of overt racism in France (which erupted into violence), the Netherlands, Russia, Sudan, Australia, and a host of other countries than in the US.)

[canuckamuck]

Berkshire simply has an exceptionally narrow definition of the term racism and small case of rose colored glasses. I think we should let this thread die as it is only about semantics and not much else.

[phetaroi]

You see, once again, in my opinion, you're trying to cover up the problem. You appear to be saying -- it's a problem, but we aren't going to be politically correct, instead we'll continue to be discriminatory.

Try answering these two questions without bringing anything else into the discussion:

1. Do Thais tend to discriminate against certain groups of people?

2. Is discrimination right or wrong?

Not covering anything up.

1. Absolutely.

2. It's natural, no more right or wrong than my preference for bourbon which means scotch has no place...never mind job or visa opportunities in my home.

You see, on number #2, you didn't just answer the question. You made the FOOLISH statement that the way you treat human beings is no different in terms of morality than the way you choose an alcoholic beverage.

Apparently to you it's perfectly moral that you tell an Indian or Pakistani that they can't rent an apartment in your complex simply because of their nationality, while other foreign nationals are fully accepted at your complex.

Apparently to you it's perfectly moral that an obviously handicapped person is very unlikely to be hired in most office environments in Thailand...better that they go out on the street and beg.

Apparently to you it's perfectly moral that a Lao/Thai person or Muslim person is less likely to be hired for a job than a central Thai, simply based on ethnicity.

Apparently to you it's perfectly moral that a 20-something with lighter skin in more likely to be hired for a certain job than a 40-something person with dark skin.

After all, all these choices are simply of the same scope as choosing which beverage you prefer at a bar.