Thai PM Abhisit Demands Cambodians Leave Disputed Border Area

[jayjayjayjay]

This is a farce. How many Thai's have ever been to the Temple. I have tried, but because of this childish behavior could not get any closer that the army road block 6 km back...... I wonder how many of these so passionate Dems, Reds, Yellows, or so called academic experts have even made the effort to visit the temple. There has been years and years of opportunity. Idiots, the bloody lot of 'em.

[truethailand]

Abhisit and his boss Sutheo are dangerous fools. That is also why they do not want to bring it to the World Court.  Abhisit will lose big time. Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos were all damaged by Thailand before and the help they gave to the Americans and the Khmer Rouge. No Asean country will support thailand. Let's hope that the court disband his party tomorrow, so he cannot damage the country more. We see now that the PAD is ruling Thailand.

Dream on, barbarian, you're probably better at that. You mixed barely related issues, draw illogical conclusions and you're still lucky: as personal opinion it's allowed. As for the court disbanding the Dem's, that would be undemocratic at this moment, still many more sessions planned with hundred of witnesses for and against. The juridical process works if slowly.

and if doesn't work in the Dems favour we will have another coup. Thailands history in a tea cup

[metroman]

Seriously, if you are going to make demands you must accept the possibility of refusal and be prepared with an ..OR ELSE.... otherwise, it is just chin music.

[chantorn]

This is a farce. How many Thai's have ever been to the Temple. I have tried, but because of this childish behavior could not get any closer that the army road block 6 km back...... I wonder how many of these so passionate Dems, Reds, Yellows, or so called academic experts have even made the effort to visit the temple. There has been years and years of opportunity. Idiots, the bloody lot of 'em.

This is a farce. How many Thai's have ever been to the Temple?

Not many as our friendly neighbor does not welcome us.

Don't forget that while the temple structure is Cambodian, it is located inside Thailand.

[fxe1200]

Abhisit told reporters. "They have trespassed so we are trying to evict them."The problem happened because Cambodia intruded into Thai territory so we have the right to protect our sovereignty and we will do everything possible through peaceful means."

It looks like some members of Thaivisa did not understood his saying "through peaceful means".

I believe, that Abhisit is trying to calm the dispute.

Let Thailand and Cambidodia discuss this matter after the cleaning of all landmines. I hope that works. I' rather consider Hun Sen more a military hardliner then Abhisit (with his education).

Hi fxe1200

Perhaps those "some members of Thaivisa" you refer to..... are simply better informed than you.

"A day earlier, The Nation newspaper reported, Abhisit told a rally of Yellow Shirts that he would be willing to trash the MoU and openly considered using "military means" in order to safeguard Thai sovereignty."

If I were trying to be a smart-a$ .... I might point out that it rather depends on just which side of his mouth Abhisit is speaking from.

As for those light-weight Bunnies on here who try to tar any who disagree with their views as Reds or Thaksinites --- grow up!! You certainly don't have to be either ---- to regard the ultra-nationalistic aims of the PAD clique as childish insanity.

I hope that I am right. But as you say in your apodosis: 'never underestimate the power of human stupidity'

[rubl]

Seriously, if you are going to make demands you must accept the possibility of refusal and be prepared with an ..OR ELSE.... otherwise, it is just chin music.

Time enough for that. No need at all to contemplate the 'or else', for the government certainly not in public.

Edited August 10, 2010 by rubl

[Thai at Heart]

This is a farce. How many Thai's have ever been to the Temple. I have tried, but because of this childish behavior could not get any closer that the army road block 6 km back...... I wonder how many of these so passionate Dems, Reds, Yellows, or so called academic experts have even made the effort to visit the temple. There has been years and years of opportunity. Idiots, the bloody lot of 'em.

This is a farce. How many Thai's have ever been to the Temple?

Not many as our friendly neighbor does not welcome us.

Don't forget that while the temple structure is Cambodian, it is located inside Thailand.

The structure is in Cambodia, but it is located in Thailand? Ummmmm.......

Seems if this is the level of discussion, the only option is war.

Being a tad more serious, rhetoric like this is putting these two countries on a path to conflict. How do you demand and then perform the peaceful removal of people from another country in front of their armed forces?

The inevitable response from the Cambodians has to be retaliation. I thought and hoped that Abhisit could somehow rise above the nonsense of the PAD, but he can't. I wish they would put Sondhi and his PAD cadres in camoflage gear and send them up front. This Nationalistic nonsense will only harm the country, although I am sure that might be difficult to see when viewed from a gilded house in Bangkok. I am once again astounded that the "policy" of this country is being dictated by a very select few people, when no one even knows if the country as a whole cares one fig about it. Abhisit is being led to the slaughter for a few rai of land.

If we can say that the country is better off having one man on the run in exile, I would suggest that the country would be well served by having a few more, but this time of the yellow persuasion.

Once again, someone needs to get a steady hand on the tiller and stop this nonsense.

What will a conflict achieve? The ability for Thai's to cock a snook at Cambodia? They don't need a few rai to do that, they have been doing it for years anyway. It certainly won't resolve the issue of the land.

The defending of sovereign soil is a very important issue of course, but this has been on the table for over 100 years to be solved, and many would believe it has been, and Thailand should simply desist from this nonsense. If shots aren't exchanged by Friday, I will be very surprised, and ironically, I would imagine those with the least love of the conflict will probably be the poor squaddies from Thailand who will be putting their lives on the line to satisfy the nationalist ravings of a few loonies in yellow.

Maybe downing arms might be the answer.

[wolf5370]

What if they don't? SHOOT TO KILL?

Very inappropriate remark. Read the OP again, your PM will stick to peaceful means.

What if all peaceful means still fails? Then what? SHOOT TO KILL?

I agree, Samrit's post was obviously a question and not a statement, so Rubi's rebuke was somewhat uncalled for. It is an interesting point actually. Its all well and good (or not) to say "get out" and in the same sentence qualify it with "...by any peaceful means...", but when diplomacy doesn't work (on either side) then there are just two options, walk away or fight - Asian face doesn't make the former action (walking away) very easy. So, it may have been better to have kept this out of public domain where face is less of an obstacle. The ploy to use this as a means to divert internal issues and as a unifying action may well backfire with dangerous repercussions - lets hope its worth it!

[toenail]

Old strategy done by leaders... create a war (or the "bad guys") to get the country united and forget their domestic troubles.

[tig28]

to regard the ultra-nationalistic aims of the PAD clique as childish insanity.

Are you saying that PAD reflects the clear majority (69.55%) of Thais' opinion on this issue? I'm sure they appreciate your endorsement of them.

Hi MARCH

Certainly not saying that--- for as you must be well aware -- a pollster tends to get the response he is seeking. But I do believe that the recent ultra-nationalistic and often militaristic rhetoric being bandied about by some -- serves no good end. If this flood of ill-judged Nationalistic fervor is causing the general Thai population to beat war drums -- then I am pointing my finger of scorn at the "leaders" who are doing this.

And you are not?

Sorry again -- I have found naught from PAD to endorse .... from their inception ... to this day.

By the way -- back to topic--

Apart from the temple and immediate grounds that the World Court ruled in 1962 belonged to Cambodia ( despite being plainly within normal Thai boundaries) ----- it is my belief that Cambodia has no basis of any claim on "the disputed" area adjacent to the temple.

But a military solution to this dispute is idiotic.

[Thai at Heart]

Old strategy done by leaders... create a war (or the "bad guys") to get the country united and forget their domestic troubles.

That worked in the days of yore before internet, world wide media, 24 hour news channels and the such.

Despite the best efforts of the current (and some of the previous) governments in Thailand to control every piece of information that they can, they can't do it anymore. The army learnt that very fast in their stupid coup. They had to be front and centre talking to the media within a few hours, looking like (to coin a phrase) "dastardly wax models".

If Thailand does this, the rest of the world will see first hand up and close the conflict, and then will sit around debating the rights and wrongs of what has been done.

And Thailand will be proven to be in the wrong in the eyes of the rest of the world, mark my words. Abhisit will lose every iota of credibility in the eyes of the rest of the world, and at least 50% (if not more)of the Thai population because they will know that he has been forced into this by a few people in yellow shirts. Don't forget there are myriad newspapers, blogs and websites out there beyond the narrow minded idiocy of the Nation. The official and unofficial Thai media will be awash with their opinions and the government can't shut them all down.

What an utter mess, the warmonger from Oxford who went to war for a few acres? It is idiotic in this day and age.

Ordinarily, one should consult with one's allies about this kind of stuff. I see that the US is silent so far. Has anyone thought of China's response to all of this if it really goes off, and doesn't stop in a short fire fight? dam_n Sondhi and his yellow twits. Can't anyone see that what Thaksin and Hun Sen want is to prove that Abhisit is a puppet? If Thailand comes back with 100 dead, Abhisit will be political toast.

He will be proven to absolutely be the puppet of the few, and he will inevitably have to resign afterwards, (or face losing by an absolute landslide) and then the country is returned full circle into the hands of PTP. Political idiocy.

[HAL9000]

The old ruse - in case of domestic problems, create an international incident.

In the days of GPS and Google Earth, it should be very easy to just grab a bag of stakes and walk the border.

The military on both sides need to go home and let civilian life continue while this is sorted out. This is in no way a threat to Thai or Cambodian sovereignty.

[Deeral]

Clearly a diversion tactic - from what I don't know...but it might just be a rather sad effort to "conciliate" the Thai people in hatred against th Cambodians. now where have we seen that tactic before??????

[Thai at Heart]

Clearly a diversion tactic - from what I don't know...but it might just be a rather sad effort to "conciliate" the Thai people in hatred against th Cambodians. now where have we seen that tactic before??????

This time I don't think they will be able to hoodwink the public. We are witnessing government to satisfy yellow shirts, nothing more nothing less.

I don't know what is a worse image in my mind, Thaksin's inane grin with $$$$ in his eyes as he corrupted another election, or Abhisit getting gang banged by the PAD hierarchy.

[yellow1red1]

It's a pile of rocks for Chriss sake!

religious temple = war < no red or yellow logic can explain that

alquida is loving the idea of a Cambodian Thailand conflict, though.

There should be a Hindu and Buddhist Impermenance Ceremony and bull doze the whole thing over a cliff.

If it wasn't for Western myopic, dillusional 'preservationists' interfering with an Eastern site, none of this would be conflicting.

It's not Cambodian or Thai territory; it now is dictacted by unesco.

The real Hindu way would be for the jungle to take over or let locals use the bricks for homes.

The World Heritage Committee are the real trespassers!

'Thus early Buddhism declares that in this world there is nothing that is fixed and permanent. Every thing is subject to change and alteration. "Decay is inherent in all component things," declared the Buddha and his followers accepted that existence was a flux, and a continuous becoming.'

'Nothing remains the same for two consecutive moments. Heraclitus said we can never bathe twice in the same river. Confucius, while looking at a stream, said, "It is always flowing, day and night." The Buddha implored us not just to talk about impermanence, but to use it as an instrument to help us penetrate deeply into reality and obtain liberating insight.'

'The Buddha did not create change or impermanence. It was there in his time, it is there now, and it will always be there. But the Buddha was the one who made it clear to us, He taught us to be able to live in harmony with nature: nature that exists in persons, in things around us; the nature that sometimes turns out in its own way just the opposite of what we would want it to be. Change is just a fact and verified by direct immediate observation. He uses the word "Dhamma " to describe change. Dhamma here means nature. He reveals his observation in a typically simple way - "component things come and go, arise and perish" (uppajjhitva nirujjhanti ). '

Edit - Unesco should change their name to the World Tourist Trap Organization. ThAt is after all all they really do is set up roadside attractions.

A real non Western non judea christian 'heritage' organisation would protect these sites from PRESERVATIONISTS and let the jungle take over, as prescribed by the founding religions.

go preserve the Sistine Chapel!

Edited August 10, 2010 by yellow1red1

[Hardie]

CASE CONCERNING THE TEMPLE OF PREAH VIHEAR

(MERITS)

Judgment of 15 June 1962

Proceedings in the case concerning the Temple of Preah Vihear, between Cambodia and Thailand, were instituted on 6 October 1959 by an Application of the Government of Cambodia; the Government of Thailand having raised two preliminary objections, the Court, by its Judgment of 26 May 1961, found that it had jurisdiction.

In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia and, in consequence, that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory.

By seven votes to five, the Court found that Thailand was under an obligation to restore to Cambodia any sculptures, stelae, fragments of monuments, sandstone model and ancient pottery which might, since the date of the occupation of the Temple by Thailand in 1954, have been removed from the Temple or the Temple area by the Thai authorities.

Judge Tanaka and Judge Morelli appended to the Judgment a Joint Declaration. Vice-President Alfaro and Judge Sir Gerald Fitzmaurice appended Separate Opinions; Judges Moreno Quintana, Wellington Koo and Sir Percy Spender appended Dissenting Opinions.

http://www.icj-cij.o...se=45&k=46&p3=5

There is much more, as the above link will show. This is a done deal, brought to the world court by Cambodia after the Thai invasion of 1954. Thailand is fortunate to have under its stewardship all the Khmer archeological sites of southern Isaan. They should be giving thanks, not threats.

Have any Thais been to PV? My wife has, because I took her there a few years ago before the current mess. There was no animosity toward us at all, even after that silly Thai actress demanded they return Angkor Wat (obviously confusing the two). It's nice, but it's not Angkor, which Thailand might like to claim as its own also, given a different interpretation of history. Thailand, go pick on somebody your own size and leave Cambodia alone, the state which has given you most of your language and culture, and suffered much in the process. Why do you think they use the name 'Siem Riap', which Thais refuse to acknowledge to this day (read the destination signs above the Bangkok Air check-in desk). Thailand is a sore loser.

[animatic]

What if they don't? SHOOT TO KILL?

Very inappropriate remark. Read the OP again, your PM will stick to peaceful means.

What if all peaceful means still fails? Then what? SHOOT TO KILL?

No dear, they'll try carpet bombing from all the planes on the Thai aircraft carrier.

[RigPig]

It is my belief that this dispute is not just about the temple and its few Rai of land. These borders were originally drawn up by the French and ratified (because Thailand did not object) by the UN in 1962. If Thailand accepts that the border at the temple is correct it also has to concede the boarders in the Gulf of Thailand (which are also under dispute) are correct. There is a big reason why neither side want to do this....OIL.

There have been 4 major oil companies doing exploration work in that area and there are considerable reserves. However no one can go drilling for it as it is under dispute.

[Thai at Heart]

Have any Thais been to PV? My wife has, because I took her there a few years ago before the current mess. There was no animosity toward us at all, even after that silly Thai actress demanded they return Angkor Wat (obviously confusing the two). It's nice, but it's not Angkor, which Thailand might like to claim as its own also, given a different interpretation of history. Thailand, go pick on somebody your own size and leave Cambodia alone, the state which has given you most of your language and culture, and suffered much in the process. Why do you think they use the name 'Siem Riap', which Thais refuse to acknowledge to this day (read the destination signs above the Bangkok Air check-in desk). Thailand is a sore loser.

When it comes to a bunfight in the jungle, I am not so sure it will be a matter of Thailand picking on someone their own size. Down and dirty at relatively close quarters, I would imagine the Cambodians will give as good as they get.

Of course, they could attempt to bomb it with their non working harriers, and accidentally blow up the whole place as likely as anything else.

Maybe then they could let Sondhi sit in the corner and put it all back together again and he could show the world what a wonderfully powerful man he is. Did anyone ever work out who did take a potshot or 100 at him?

[barnabus]

This is sad, if this goes into more so many young troops could lose there lives on both sides just for a piece of land 4.6 Sq. kilometer (1.8 Sq ml.), if PM Hun Sen and PM Abhiste Vejjajiva both want it so bad wouldn't it be a good idea that we give them both guns and let them fight it out and the winner gets it. That way only one person has to die not thousands.

[DickFarang]

That guy needs a good psychiatrist.

[Thai at Heart]

It is my belief that this dispute is not just about the temple and its few Rai of land. These borders were originally drawn up by the French and ratified (because Thailand did not object) by the UN in 1962. If Thailand accepts that the border at the temple is correct it also has to concede the boarders in the Gulf of Thailand (which are also under dispute) are correct. There is a big reason why neither side want to do this....OIL.

There have been 4 major oil companies doing exploration work in that area and there are considerable reserves. However no one can go drilling for it as it is under dispute.

Well if Abhisit has any political cojones, just come out and say it. If the whole world knows why there maybe another reason for this, go ahead and say it.

At least it would make a hel_l of a lot more sense than potentially getting into a gunfight over a temple built in the middle of a geographical empire that no longer exists apparently for the whim of a few people in yellow. I would find it far easier to support any decisions he made if he dressed it up as 'securing the long term financial strength of the country' as opposed to a point of principle dressed around maps that Thailand has essentially agreed to over 100 years ago.

The idea that the country "can't handle the truth" is infinitely worse than appearing to go to a gunfight just to keep the PAD happy.

[Deeral]

Thailand's very own mini-Iraq,

well done Abhisit....or should that be CRES and the military?

[chantorn]

Just a thought. Fence up the overlapped area. Plant land mine at 2 meters intervals, just like N & S Korea border.

In short, if Thailand cannot get it back (from ICJ ruling), Cambodia must not get it as well... Same reason why Saddam blow up Kuwait oil wells.

Frankly, I don't see another way out without going to war over a ruin temple & 4.2 sq km of mine infested wasteland.

[Thai at Heart]

Some interesting documents here.

Even apparently contains some government documents showing various versions of maps with a little annotation.

http://sokheounpang.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/prasat-preah-vihear-maps/

As for this being a mini-Iraq, he is obviously starting off VERY small.

[DickFarang]

Poor Abhisit,

He looked clever and capable. The truth is that he is just one more puppet in the hands of PAD and army.

Thailand should really have an external look on the situation and see how its international image deteriorates everyday, not good for businnes, investments, tourism.... Time to wake up

So are we saying that Thailand is not allowed to 'defend' it's territory.

The area is disputed but it is 'legally' Thailands.

That's all the point

Territory of thailand in thai opinion, not international rules. If Thailand does not agree with UN, maybe it's time to close borders,remove from UN and declare war. Then we will see if, for few nationalists warmongers, it's better to "loose" 4kms2 or to loose face and then loose confiance, economy, investments, tourism, money from international institutions and individuals.

Thailand should much more be worried about internal divisions and hate, as this will make thailand loose much more than a cliffy land

I guess you mean “lose” instead of “loose” and “confidence” instead of “confiance”.

[DickFarang]

Poor Abhisit,

He looked clever and capable. The truth is that he is just one more puppet in the hands of PAD and army.

Thailand should really have an external look on the situation and see how its international image deteriorates everyday, not good for businnes, investments, tourism.... Time to wake up

100% true.

Sorry for the hysterical nationalist Thais (or yellow farangs) who wants war.

Anyway, dear Abisith, yellow Thais or farangs, if you want war, just do it. No need any reason.

Only fools want war. K. Abhisit is aware he's got a few of them in powerfull positions and he needs to maneuver carefully to avoid a war and bloodshed. To use this Preah Vihear issue as method to distract from other internal problems is old-fashioned, used many times in many countries. Thailand is fortunate in a PM who has a bit more education and knowledge of the outside world than most others here. And yes, IMHO!

“To use this Preah Vihear issue as method to distract from other internal problems is old-fashioned, used many times in many countries.”

It reminds me of Margaret Thatcher’s Falklands War.

[Thai at Heart]

“To use this Preah Vihear issue as method to distract from other internal problems is old-fashioned, used many times in many countries.”

It reminds me of Margaret Thatcher’s Falklands War.

It could be construed as that, unfortunately, there wasn't too much international debate going on about who legally had possession of the Falklands. It was and still is British sovereign territory by all international convention.

I doubt Abhisit can get whole hearted support for his actions from the Thai army, his own political party, let alone the Thai people. Thailand is in a very different situation to the UK in 1982.

It is becoming more and more obvious that a political vote for Abhisit is in reality a vote for the PADs militant policies and this will hang Abhisit at the polls (if they actually allow a vote) eventually.

The world is pretty much in agreement, as were over 100 years of Thai governments as to where the border lies in this situation. I don't see Thailand being able to convince too many people that they have any legitimacy in this situation when multiple international rulings have decided the case pretty much already.

[djayz]

Does any reader have a way of sending a communique to Prime Minister Abhisit suggesting that Thailand and Cambodia create a joint venture around the Temple, maybe even a larger area and be dedicated to defusing the landmines somehow?

Or, even to concede that small bit of territory to Cambodia? I see no economic impact in do so.

The NATO alliance nations that are responsible for planting the landmines ought to be assuming their responsibility to clean the area up!! I have seen documentaries about the loss of life--especially children--from landmines detonating.

Definitely a call to compassion and cooperation on many levels!

pii Chaai

Guess we can expect a closure of the border.

Regarding your comment about the economic impact: Tourism => $$$$$$$ Just imagine how many tourists will flock to see the temple (in Cambodia) through the main entrance (in Thailand). That's why neither side will concede that small piece of land.

[rubl]

Poor Abhisit,

He looked clever and capable. The truth is that he is just one more puppet in the hands of PAD and army.

Thailand should really have an external look on the situation and see how its international image deteriorates everyday, not good for businnes, investments, tourism.... Time to wake up

100% true.

Sorry for the hysterical nationalist Thais (or yellow farangs) who wants war.

Anyway, dear Abisith, yellow Thais or farangs, if you want war, just do it. No need any reason.

Only fools want war. K. Abhisit is aware he's got a few of them in powerfull positions and he needs to maneuver carefully to avoid a war and bloodshed. To use this Preah Vihear issue as method to distract from other internal problems is old-fashioned, used many times in many countries. Thailand is fortunate in a PM who has a bit more education and knowledge of the outside world than most others here. And yes, IMHO!

“To use this Preah Vihear issue as method to distract from other internal problems is old-fashioned, used many times in many countries.”

It reminds me of Margaret Thatcher’s Falklands War.

I sincerely hope we've learned and evolved a bit since 1982. Short term the M. Thatcher's party won an election, unemployment rose to a level never seen, The Royal Navy survived till now (but how much longer?). Was it worth it? I decline to answer. Will it be worth it for Thailand? I doubt even short-term value. Loss of foreign investment and tourism more likely.

PS did some-one mention an aircraft carrier ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_empire_strikes_back_newsweek.jpg

Edited August 10, 2010 by rubl