Uk National Insurance Number For Deceased Ex-Pat Thai Wife

[freddiek]

Is there anybody on this forum who can offer helpful advice on the following problem. Please bear with me, whilst I explain. I had a good close friend, who died suddenly last March (2010) he leaves behind a Thai wife, and two young children, he was ex UK and had a pension from a well known company. His Thai wife has inherited that pension at a much reduced rate. The company pension fund are deducting 20% (basic rate) income tax from her monthly paycheck. On talking to an advisor at the inland revenue I was told they cannot do any thing about it as she does not have a record or a national insurance number. I then talked to the people who issue national insurance numbers, to be told that she needs to be in the UK in order to get the said number. This is not a practical solution at this time, she has never been to the UK and is unlikely to ever go. Meanwhile, she continues to be penalised, through no fault of her own.

[Crossy]

I'm going to move this to General for now (it's not a forum support question).

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Fred

A quick Google came up with this, you should so some additional web searching, might be able to come up with an email or snail mail address where you could write to the UK about the lady, and applying from overseas.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/BeginnersGuideToBenefits/DG_10014073

Mac

a Yank

[Eff1n2ret]

I think the advice given to the OP is nonsense. I don't see any way the lady can be issued with an NI Number if she's never been in the UK. Surely she's entitled to pay no UK tax because (i) she's non-resident (ii) UK has a double-taxation agreement with Thailand. This of course might render her liable to pay tax on the annuity in Thailand, but at what rate I've no idea. I'm sure somebody may be able to give a more comprehensive and authoritative explanation, but in the meantime the OP might consider whether this form would be the appropriate one to submit to HMRC to free her from UK tax:-

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/dtindividual.pdf

[dumball]

When I enquired about adding my wife to my UK pension , I was informed we would need to be in residence in the UK with a ligitimate marriage certificate to even start the proccess , my intention at the time was only for a small survivor pension in the future .

[duceahearts]

not sure if it will help, this guy was still alive but getting NI can be done.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/140448-can-anyone-help-a-pensioner/

[billd766]

Yes it is possible for a Thai wife to be given a National Insurance number as my wife now has one and I receive the dependent Allowance for her BUT it takes a long time and quite a few original documents including my birth certificate, our marriage certificate, her birth certificate etc.

This is from the department of Works and Pensions International at Newcastle upon Tyne.

I took me nearly 6 months to get the allowance, another 4 or 5 months to get her NI number and she has to write the letter herself although I did it and used Google translate to turn it into Thai.

They do not send a physical document but a letter addressed to her.

All the time I was writing to them I used her Thai family name as she never changed it on marriage and their last letter was addressed to her using my family name and not hers.

I have written to them and phoned them but they say they cannot talk to me but only to her.

For some reason it takes nearly 2 months to get a written reply.

Having said all that it was relatively easy for us as I am still alive but for a widow to chase it up will be very hard and she will need a UK person she can call on and trust in Thailand to work with her.

If you need some more information and help please PM me and I will do what I can.

[cardholder]

She is also likely to be entitled to the Bereavement payment.

[freddiek]

I would like to thank all those who took time and effort to respond to my question on N.I. NUMBER for deceased ex-pat wife. it is much appreciated.

[elliss]

I think the advice given to the OP is nonsense. I don't see any way the lady can be issued with an NI Number if she's never been in the UK.

NI NUMBERS , are issued to UK citizens ,

when they seek/start work.

[billd766]

I think the advice given to the OP is nonsense. I don't see any way the lady can be issued with an NI Number if she's never been in the UK.

NI NUMBERS , are issued to UK citizens ,

when they seek/start work.

Sorry but that is not correct.

They can be issued to a spouse of a UK citizen be that person male or female.

That is a fact that I can guarantee 100% but only IF it is applied for by the spouse.

It worked for me and my Thai wife.

Read post #7 by me.

Edited August 13, 2010 by billd766

[Eff1n2ret]

I think the advice given to the OP is nonsense. I don't see any way the lady can be issued with an NI Number if she's never been in the UK.

NI NUMBERS , are issued to UK citizens ,

when they seek/start work.

Sorry but that is not correct.

They can be issued to a spouse of a UK citizen be that person male or female.

That is a fact that I can guarantee 100% but only IF it is applied for by the spouse.

It worked for me and my Thai wife.

Read post #7 by me.

Fair enough, I stand corrected - but it doesn't help the lady mentioned in the OP, as her husband has shuffled off this mortal coil, so your experience won't help her. It seems to me that those who have successfully applied did so to ensure their spouse's entitlement to state pension or whatever in due course. In this case, the lady has a widow's pension from her late husband's employment, and the issue is the tax that's being deducted. The application form to which I provided a link clearly envisages the possibility of applicants who haven't lived in the UK and don't have a NINO, and it seems that the person at HMRC to whom the OP spoke is not au fait with the relevant regulations about non-residents' liability to tax (unfortunately helpline operators' ignorance of their department's rules is not confined to HMRC).

I think the OP should make some enquiries about the lady's potential liability to Thai taxation before he makes any moves to get her exempted from UK tax - as I pointed out, under double taxation agreements the Thai authorities could ask her to cough up something, and it would be a pity if she ended up paying more.

But chasing round trying to get her a NINO is in this instance an irrelevance, IMHO.

[yabaaaa]

I think the advice given to the OP is nonsense. I don't see any way the lady can be issued with an NI Number if she's never been in the UK.

NI NUMBERS , are issued to UK citizens ,

when they seek/start work.

You are misinformed it can and has been done regardless of what you "think"

[JohnLeech]

I think the advice given to the OP is nonsense. I don't see any way the lady can be issued with an NI Number if she's never been in the UK.

NI NUMBERS , are issued to UK citizens ,

when they seek/start work.

Sorry but that is not correct.

They can be issued to a spouse of a UK citizen be that person male or female.

That is a fact that I can guarantee 100% but only IF it is applied for by the spouse.

It worked for me and my Thai wife.

Read post #7 by me.

Correct bill, but since your wife applied the regulations have changed considerably and from April this year a spouse can only apply for a UKNI number either if they are in the UK and intend working (when they can be issued to anyone working, regardless of nationality) or after their spouse who has paid NI contributions has died and they are applying for bereavement benefit or once they reach pensionable age and they are applying for a partial NI pension (not once you reach pensionable age, as had been the case before when you applied)

In this case although she is probably not yet eligible for the state pension she will (as long as he made some NI contributions) be eligible for either a bereavement grant or a bereavement pension for two years, so she can get a NI number on these grounds; she cannot get a NI number for a private pension, so she must apply for the bereavement benefit in order to get one.

Telephone 44 191 203 7010 monday to friday, 9 -5 UK time, for advice,

Edited August 13, 2010 by JohnLeech

[billd766]

I think the advice given to the OP is nonsense. I don't see any way the lady can be issued with an NI Number if she's never been in the UK.

NI NUMBERS , are issued to UK citizens ,

when they seek/start work.

Sorry but that is not correct.

They can be issued to a spouse of a UK citizen be that person male or female.

That is a fact that I can guarantee 100% but only IF it is applied for by the spouse.

It worked for me and my Thai wife.

Read post #7 by me.

Correct bill, but since your wife applied the regulations have changed considerably and from April this year a spouse can only apply for a UKNI number either if they are in the UK and intend working (when they can be issued to anyone working, regardless of nationality) or after their spouse who has paid NI contributions has died and they are applying for bereavement benefit or once they reach pensionable age and they are applying for a partial NI pension (not once you reach pensionable age, as had been the case before when you applied)

In this case although she is probably not yet eligible for the state pension she will (as long as he made some NI contributions) be eligible for either a bereavement grant or a bereavement pension for two years, so she can get a NI number on these grounds; she cannot get a NI number for a private pension, so she must apply for the bereavement benefit in order to get one.

Telephone 44 191 203 7010 monday to friday, 9 -5 UK time, for advice,

Thank you for that updated information that I was unaware of.

It seems as though I was lucky to get in when I did as were many others.

I suspect that the lady in question may be on an emergency tax code but quite how the UK government can tax a Thai citizen on her late husbands pension is beyond me as on of the things I do every time I complete my tax form online is to quote my NI number.

Weird.

The UK international tax people I call are on (005) 44 191 218 7777 if that helps anyone.

[prakhonchai nick]

Correct bill, but since your wife applied the regulations have changed considerably and from April this year a spouse can only apply for a UKNI number either if they are in the UK and intend working (when they can be issued to anyone working, regardless of nationality) or after their spouse who has paid NI contributions has died and they are applying for bereavement benefit or once they reach pensionable age and they are applying for a partial NI pension (not once you reach pensionable age, as had been the case before when you applied)

In this case although she is probably not yet eligible for the state pension she will (as long as he made some NI contributions) be eligible for either a bereavement grant or a bereavement pension for two years, so she can get a NI number on these grounds; she cannot get a NI number for a private pension, so she must apply for the bereavement benefit in order to get one.

Telephone 44 191 203 7010 monday to friday, 9 -5 UK time, for advice,

This info is correct.

A NI number may be granted to a Thai citizen who wants to work in the UK ONLY if they make the application in the UK in person.

A NI number will only be granted in other circumstances when it is needed such as for the payment of bereavement benefits or pensions. I believe this has always been the case

I can see no reason why a Thai citizen would want a NI number for any other reason (except in the case of the OP for tax purposes)

[JohnLeech]

A NI number will only be granted in other circumstances when it is needed such as for the payment of bereavement benefits or pensions. I believe this has always been the case

The biggest change in April was that prior to that a Thai wife (for example) would have been entitled to a partial UK state pension when her husband reached pensionable age, regardless of how old she was, so she could get a NI number while her husband was still alive and able to help her (and himself!), while now she has to wait until she is pensionable, by which time her husband may have passed on.

I am not actually sure if changing her tax code by getting a NI number will necessarily make her any better off, as even on an emergency code she should still get a personal allowance before her pension is taxed and as far as I know her being resident overseas will make no difference to her tax status unless her private pension is based offshore rather than in the UK. Not sure on that, however.

[learningcurve]

Fred

I assisted two Thai ladies last year who were in the same position as your friends Thai wife.

First of all she does not require a NI number.

She can claim a one off berevement allowance of 2000 GBP. She needs to apply for this allowance within 12 months of the death of her husband. If you go onto the direct gov website and search for berevement you can download the application form. You can complete the form on her behalf. She will need to enclose her original marriage certificate, her husbands death certificate, and if she has been married before she must enclose her divorce certificate. All of these doc's must be accompanied with a certified English translation. Send them by FEDEX. Once the claim has been rubber stamped they will post back the documents by registered mail. The claim will take approx 4 months to process. They will send her a UK Sterling cheque for 2000GBP.

With regards to a UK state pension. Her husband must have been 65 years + old when he passed away and have been in receipt of his state pension. She must be at least 45 years of age when her husband died. The state pension is paid on a sliding scale dependant on her age. At 45 yrs old she would recieve 28 GBP per week, increasing with her age to 90 GBP per week when she reaches 60 years of age. If she was not 45 years old or older when her husband past away she will have to wait until she is 60 years old to make a claim. If she remarries between now and her 60th birthday she will receive nothing. Again, the application form can be found on the gov website.

With reference to the private pension. You can write to the pension company stating that she is non residant in the UK and does not wish to pay UK income tax on the pension. They will then send her a form (can not recall the name of the form). She will need to complete the form and then have the Thai Tax Office rubber stamp the form, it is then send back to the Inland Revenue. Tax will then be paid on the pension to the Thai gov instead of the UK gov. When I looked into this last year I found that the amount of tax paid is roughly the same for UK and Thailand, so deemed it not worth all the hassle of the red tape involved at the Thai Tax Office. She will have to pay tax one way or the other.

Hope this is of help to you and your friends wife.

[cardholder]

Once the claim has been rubber stamped they will post back the documents by registered mail. The claim will take approx 4 months to process. They will send her a UK Sterling cheque for 2000GBP.

This is probably the last thing she needs.

Anyone helping a Thai widow in these circumstances can arrange for an authority to be obtained (from the widow) to instruct DWP to pay the Bereavement Payment to a third party UK bank account.

Transferring by SWIFT (say, with the Halifax @ £9.50) will undoubtedly achieve a better rate of exchange and save collection/negotiation charges at the Thai bank.

[prakhonchai nick]

Learningcurve has given a clear and concise summary. However the payment of a pension from age 45, is only for 1 year following death. She must then wait for more until she reaches state retirement age for women -currently 60 but increasing to 66 over time

A widow may be eligible for widowed parents allowance of up to £97 a week, based on the husbands NI contributions, if she has a child/children under 20 and still in secondary education. The children do not need to be the husbands! So long as she was legally married she can claim.

As Cardholder states a cheque sent to her in Thailand will cause problems. Either payment to a 3rd party to a UK bank, or a direct transfer to a Thai bank (although the baht conversion is done in the UK and the rate might not be very favourable.

[JohnLeech]

Learningcurve has given a clear and concise summary.

Sorry, but he hasn't and neither have you.

Learningcurve may have been correct last year, but he is not correct now. We cannot both be correct!!

She will probably still be enitled to a bereavement allowance if she is over 45 (the amount varies depending on her husband's NI contributions, but is a maximum of £29.30 to £97.65 per week for 52 weeks depending on age) but for this she now needs NI Number which she can apply for at the same time as she applies for the allowance. A lump sum will only be paid if the overall amount is low (if her husband's NI contributions were incomplete).

She is not entitled to any state pension until she herself reaches pensionable age. None. Not under any circumstances. Nada. End of story.

She is not entitled to Widowed Parents Allowance unless she is already receiving Child Benefit, which is only paid to those living in the UK or the EEA (except under limited circumstances for those working overseas temporarily, in the Armed Forces, etc, which do not apply here).

[prakhonchai nick]

Learningcurve has given a clear and concise summary.

Sorry, but he hasn't and neither have you.

Learningcurve may have been correct last year, but he is not correct now. We cannot both be correct!!

She will probably still be enitled to a bereavement allowance if she is over 45 (the amount varies depending on her husband's NI contributions, but is a maximum of £29.30 to £97.65 per week for 52 weeks depending on age) but for this she now needs NI Number which she can apply for at the same time as she applies for the allowance. A lump sum will only be paid if the overall amount is low (if her husband's NI contributions were incomplete).

She is not entitled to any state pension until she herself reaches pensionable age. None. Not under any circumstances. Nada. End of story.

She is not entitled to Widowed Parents Allowance unless she is already receiving Child Benefit, which is only paid to those living in the UK or the EEA (except under limited circumstances for those working overseas temporarily, in the Armed Forces, etc, which do not apply here).

Sorry John, but you are not entirely correct.

A widow, 45 or over (WITHOUT CHILDREN for whom she could claim Widowed Parents Allowance) can claim the bereavement allowance which is payable for just 1 year, at varying rates depending on her age and her husbands NI contributions. After 1 year she must wait till she has reached state pension age before she receives more money.

If the widow has children under 20, and in secondary education (this does NOT include university) then she claims Widowed Parents Allowance and NOT Bereavement allowance. WPA is a maximum of £97.65 a week once again dependent on the number of NI payments made by the husband. NOTE, that whilst only 30 NI contributions are required from 6th April this year for full state pension, bereavement allowances still require the man to have made 44 contributions for full benefit.

Although the rules do show that the widow must have been in receipt of Child Benefit this seemingly does not apply to overseas wives. Your last paragraph is therefore TOTALLY INCORRECT. I can advise that having just assisted a Thai widow in claiming bereavement benefits, she is in receipt of WPA for her daughter for whom she NEVER received child benefit. I have queried this aspect before and have a letter confirming that WPA is payable for wives in Thailand who have never had child benefit.

And finally, as you say, neither the widow, nor any other entitled person can claim state pension until they reach state pension age.

[prakhonchai nick]

May I just add that when claiming bereavement benefits, it is NOT necessary to request a NI number. The benefit people will do this themselves, which then enables them to make payment.

They do not notify you of the NI number, but it can be found on bank statements if the payments are made to a UK bank account.

[cardholder]

It is very difficult to get an accurate picture when people are being so assertive.

It would appear that, despite flexing his muscles, Mr Leech was in error if Prakhonchai Nick's actual experience is anything to go by.

(Note to self - don't go in with all guns blazing if there is a risk of making yourself look a pratt!).

If I understand it correctly (and I have also looked on the directgov website) the OP should be able to help the widow as follows:-

(1) Obtain a £2,000 Bereavement Payment (not "grant").

(2) Obtain a Widowed Parents Allowance.

In addition, at age 60 (or as amended) she will also be entitled to her own OAP.

All these benefits being subject to the required NI payments being satisfied.

If I have misunderstood I am sure someone will correct me.

[prakhonchai nick]

It is very difficult to get an accurate picture when people are being so assertive.

It would appear that, despite flexing his muscles, Mr Leech was in error if Prakhonchai Nick's actual experience is anything to go by.

(Note to self - don't go in with all guns blazing if there is a risk of making yourself look a pratt!).

If I understand it correctly (and I have also looked on the directgov website) the OP should be able to help the widow as follows:-

(1) Obtain a £2,000 Bereavement Payment (not "grant").

(2) Obtain a Widowed Parents Allowance.

In addition, at age 60 (or as amended) she will also be entitled to her own OAP.

All these benefits being subject to the required NI payments being satisfied.

If I have misunderstood I am sure someone will correct me.

Indeed Cardholder, that is the correct position.

I have already been in touch with the OP and he made application for all bereavement benefits some time ago, which are now being dealt with. His enquiry as you will recall had nothing to do with bereavement benefits but a NI number for tax purposes. This I have assured him he will get once the bereavement benefits awards have been made.

[JohnLeech]

It is very difficult to get an accurate picture when people are being so assertive.

It would appear that, despite flexing his muscles, Mr Leech was in error if Prakhonchai Nick's actual experience is anything to go by.

(Note to self - don't go in with all guns blazing if there is a risk of making yourself look a pratt!).

It would appear that, despite flexing his muscles, Mr Leech was in error if Prakhonchai Nick's actual experience is anything to go by.

(Note to self - don't go in with all guns blazing if there is a risk of making yourself look a pratt!).

Experience is fine, as long as it is relevant and in date. If not, it is simply history.

Edited August 18, 2010 by JohnLeech

[Kwasaki]

I write what know it may help, things change over the years.

You can get information H M Revenue & Customs UK internet site.

A Thai person has to reside in England for two years apply for residents and when that is given they get a UK. N.I. number.

If they are paying tax on payments from England depending on the bank or the company they will need a R105 form for non UK residents.

The other form is a R40 I believe again the above site partually explains and when this is filled out, usually you do this every year after the 5th of April tax year.

The lady will get a Tax number and be refund every year ending.

As for claiming berevement benifit I was told when I peg it my Thai wife gets nothing from the UK goverment because she is not a UK citizen.

With the private pension when I peg it my wife will get 50% of for the rest of her life.

The lady in question will get her tax paid back to her no question but like everything with the UK " if you Don't ask !! you Don't get ".

[prakhonchai nick]

I write what know it may help, things change over the years.

You can get information H M Revenue & Customs UK internet site.

A Thai person has to reside in England for two years apply for residents and when that is given they get a UK. N.I. number.

If they are paying tax on payments from England depending on the bank or the company they will need a R105 form for non UK residents.

The other form is a R40 I believe again the above site partually explains and when this is filled out, usually you do this every year after the 5th of April tax year.

The lady will get a Tax number and be refund every year ending.

As for claiming berevement benifit I was told when I peg it my Thai wife gets nothing from the UK goverment because she is not a UK citizen.

With the private pension when I peg it my wife will get 50% of for the rest of her life.

The lady in question will get her tax paid back to her no question but like everything with the UK " if you Don't ask !! you Don't get ".

Kwasaki

The Pension people in Newcastle are too fond of telling people here in Thailand that neither they nor their Thai wives are eligible for various benefits. This simply is not true.

Provided you are legally married (in Thailand or elsewhere) when you die (assuming you go before your wife) she will get a £2000 Bereavement Payment; plus either a bereavement benefit (similar to the former Widows pension) for a period of 1 year only, or if she has children under 20 and still at school a Widowed Parents Allowance which provided you have paid sufficient NI contributions could be as much as £97 a week.

She will also be entitled to the UK state pension for herself at some time between 60/66 (depending on her present age)

This is fact. Do not accept what the Pension people tell you.

It matters not whether she is a UK citizen. nor whether she has ever set foot in the UK

The trouble is that when you die leaving a widow, she has little idea of what she is entitled to, and if she eventually has contact with the pension service and they tell her there is no pension for her of course she will accept it.

[phutoie2]

I have just received another letter from HMRC informing myself that I did not pay any NI contributions for the last tax year and would I like to send them a cheque for 300+ spon doolies.

Well I have over 36 years NI contribs so I should qualify easily for the UK state pension. (changed this year), though the present government seem to be determined to raise the age limit for state pension.

Its going to at least age 66 for me and even older, WTFK's.

I tossed the letter in file 13, but I seem to remember a paragraph in there about having 44 years NI contribs for your wife to receive full benefits on bereavement and I should continue to pay NI.

My wife cannot read a word of English and I wonder who will sort this out on my passing, hopefully not for some years yet!!!

[prakhonchai nick]

I have just received another letter from HMRC informing myself that I did not pay any NI contributions for the last tax year and would I like to send them a cheque for 300+ spon doolies.

Well I have over 36 years NI contribs so I should qualify easily for the UK state pension. (changed this year), though the present government seem to be determined to raise the age limit for state pension.

Its going to at least age 66 for me and even older, WTFK's.

I tossed the letter in file 13, but I seem to remember a paragraph in there about having 44 years NI contribs for your wife to receive full benefits on bereavement and I should continue to pay NI.

My wife cannot read a word of English and I wonder who will sort this out on my passing, hopefully not for some years yet!!!

Since you are not yet at pensionable age, you will only need 30 NI contributions to secure your full state pension.

But as you say, to enable your wife to receive full bereavement benefits (should they be necessary) you must have the full 44 payments. If you don't pay any more NI contributions, then you wife would likely receive approx 80% of the rate at the time. It should not however affect her own state pension when she reaches retirement age.

As to will help all the Widows when it comes to claiming, this is something being worked on and as they say WATCH THIS SPACE!