Brake Upgrades - First Step

[chav]

I see a lot of motorists spending a lot of money on brake upgrades. As well as looking the business these on the whole are fine but in cases when these upgrades are combined with a low grade brake pad they lose their effectiveness.

Most drivers experiences of brake pads are either what have been fitted to the car from the factory or what the local dealer / garage puts on the car for them.

There is no doubt that most cars brake only adequately, which is why people decide to improve things with big caliper and disks.

What most drivers are not aware of is that you can dramatically improve the braking performance of your car just by upgrading the brake pads.

The general car user may not also know that performance pads are available only at a very small premium in cost compared to the standard pads and that they are available for normal family cars and pick-ups.

So if you drive a Jazz, Civic, Accord, Vios, Fortuna or another modern production car get wise to braking and look at your pad choice.

[WarpSpeed]

Yes just be aware that if one steps up to premium pads you also wear down drums and rotors at a quicker pace and you should step up in brake fluid quality as well since the material used to manufacture is more abrasive and causes more friction but due to this you should consider whether or not it is even necessary?

[Piengrudee]

The last time I upgrade my brake, I got slam from the back.

[katabeachbum]

Yes just be aware that if one steps up to premium pads you also wear down drums and rotors at a quicker pace and you should step up in brake fluid quality as well since the material used to manufacture is more abrasive and causes more friction but due to this you should consider whether or not it is even necessary?

Harder brakepads create more heat. Most stock rotors/discs cant handle more heat without damage, actually most LOS made seem unable to handle stock pads heat more than 40k km.

I prefere stock pads on stock rotors stopping 100-0 in 42-43 meters and lifetime 40-50k km over aftermarket stuff with shorter lifetime and questionable improved performance.

Want better, increase size of rotors. Huge improvement, even with stock calipers and pads

[chav]

Yes, harder pads do cause a higher rate of rotor / disk wear but modern organic or ceramic compound pads with an ability to withstand higher heat are not harder. Traditionaly higher performance on pads was achieved by adding more metal which in turn eat up the disks. Material technology has advanced greatly and it is now normal for an upgrade pad to last as long or longer than an OE pad with no increased wear rate on the disk. Expect to see 40 to 50 k km from a pad and +100k on disks (depending on driving style). Be aware there are however still many high metalic loaded pads around which makes this a true statement.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic (absorbs water) so when exessive heat is generated the water boils giving a spongy peddle or sometimes no peddle; this is because boiled water (gas) is compressable. If you dont already use it step up to DOT 4 and change your fluid every year.

Upgrade pads dont produce more heat, they withstand more heat before gassing and failing. Driving normally on an upgrade pad will generate no more heat than the OE pad but you will have the extra capability there when you need it. OE discs are perfectly capable of handling extra heat generated by harder braking on an upgrade pad.

Our cusomers often joke about stopping so well they fear a rear ender however you really only need to brake so hard in an emergency. Most agree it is better to be hit up the back than run someone over or have to pay for the damage to the person in front. If you do get rear ended make sure they pay.

It is material technology that makes a good modern pad and a lot of the time served problems are now a thing of the past. It is unfortunate that the braking requirements of modern passenger vehicles have not progressed and that new vehicles can still be sold with pad technology from 15 years ago.

Many of our customer using late model cars have sworn never to go back to original equipment. Some addmittedly have taken some convincing but once a convert - always a convert.

[WarpSpeed]

Well with any upgraded brakes you're still limited to the adhesion provided by the tires so it's really irrelevant on street cars whether or not you brake harder as it's just as easy for your factory brakes to break the tires traction as it is for the upgrade to do it in fact easier for upgraded brakes to do so not necessarily a good thing for novice, every day drivers which is why I don't recommend they do so as that loss of traction is/can be more a safety problem if they loose control in the process of panic braking and possibly head off into oncoming traffic or hydroplane.

It all still comes down to the drivers capability to drive "ahead" of what's happening in front of them and no amount of braking is going to change that if they don't have the necessary ability to put that upgrade to any good use unfortunately if they are still just as careless, unaware and incompetent as a driver..

Other then that I agree with what you've stated since it I pointed out originally.

Kata not sure why you quoted my post but the reason that most rotors don't last properly in any applications is because no one here is aware that they should bed them in or heat cycle them before running them hard when they're new, then when they're hot they sit at a red light with the brakes applied and presto warped rotors. Bedding in isn't just for new pads though not as necessary for most new materials, it's also to temper the rotors when using lower grade materials such as they do here. I diagnosed this very issue for another member through emails without ever seeing his car based solely on what he told me about how and when it happened. Then he took his new car back to the dealer on my advice and they checked the trueness of the rotor and viola! Warped rotors was the reason for his soft brake pedal and front end vibration..

Edited August 13, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[culicine]

Yes just be aware that if one steps up to premium pads you also wear down drums and rotors at a quicker pace and you should step up in brake fluid quality as well since the material used to manufacture is more abrasive and causes more friction but due to this you should consider whether or not it is even necessary?

Harder brakepads create more heat. Most stock rotors/discs cant handle more heat without damage, actually most LOS made seem unable to handle stock pads heat more than 40k km.

I prefere stock pads on stock rotors stopping 100-0 in 42-43 meters and lifetime 40-50k km over aftermarket stuff with shorter lifetime and questionable improved performance.

Want better, increase size of rotors. Huge improvement, even with stock calipers and pads

What's the improvement with larger rotors and standard calipers/pads? I'd imagine they don't get as hot due to the larger surface area per revolution, and slots would help with degassing. But what about stopping distance? My abs activates even with 215 aftermarket tyres as it is... and what recommendation for rotors? I know of runstop and e'spec..

[katabeachbum]

Yes just be aware that if one steps up to premium pads you also wear down drums and rotors at a quicker pace and you should step up in brake fluid quality as well since the material used to manufacture is more abrasive and causes more friction but due to this you should consider whether or not it is even necessary?

Harder brakepads create more heat. Most stock rotors/discs cant handle more heat without damage, actually most LOS made seem unable to handle stock pads heat more than 40k km.

I prefere stock pads on stock rotors stopping 100-0 in 42-43 meters and lifetime 40-50k km over aftermarket stuff with shorter lifetime and questionable improved performance.

Want better, increase size of rotors. Huge improvement, even with stock calipers and pads

What's the improvement with larger rotors and standard calipers/pads? I'd imagine they don't get as hot due to the larger surface area per revolution, and slots would help with degassing. But what about stopping distance? My abs activates even with 215 aftermarket tyres as it is... and what recommendation for rotors? I know of runstop and e'spec..

Larger rotors cool better, has larger surface for caliper/pads per rotation, and braking surface is further distance from wheel center, Newtons law. I assume rotors are already vented and slotted.

[katabeachbum]

Yes, harder pads do cause a higher rate of rotor / disk wear but modern organic or ceramic compound pads with an ability to withstand higher heat are not harder. Traditionaly higher performance on pads was achieved by adding more metal which in turn eat up the disks. Material technology has advanced greatly and it is now normal for an upgrade pad to last as long or longer than an OE pad with no increased wear rate on the disk. Expect to see 40 to 50 k km from a pad and +100k on disks (depending on driving style). Be aware there are however still many high metalic loaded pads around which makes this a true statement.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic (absorbs water) so when exessive heat is generated the water boils giving a spongy peddle or sometimes no peddle; this is because boiled water (gas) is compressable. If you dont already use it step up to DOT 4 and change your fluid every year.

Upgrade pads dont produce more heat, they withstand more heat before gassing and failing. Driving normally on an upgrade pad will generate no more heat than the OE pad but you will have the extra capability there when you need it. OE discs are perfectly capable of handling extra heat generated by harder braking on an upgrade pad.

Our cusomers often joke about stopping so well they fear a rear ender however you really only need to brake so hard in an emergency. Most agree it is better to be hit up the back than run someone over or have to pay for the damage to the person in front. If you do get rear ended make sure they pay.

It is material technology that makes a good modern pad and a lot of the time served problems are now a thing of the past. It is unfortunate that the braking requirements of modern passenger vehicles have not progressed and that new vehicles can still be sold with pad technology from 15 years ago.

Many of our customer using late model cars have sworn never to go back to original equipment. Some addmittedly have taken some convincing but once a convert - always a convert.

Magic, reduced stopping distance without heating rotors more:rolleyes:

My experience with my own 8 LOS cars and trucks since 2003, and others vehicles, is that rotors last max 40k km after break in, due to overheating

[chav]

Larger rotors / disks will give you a greater braking moment. Think of it like a lever, the longer it is the more mechanical advantage you have.

Many customers complain about over-sensative ABS. Bizzarly this can be improved by upgrading the pads. When you brake hard gas can form between the pad and the disk (if you can imagine you are still applying pressure via the peddle when this happens)the gas reduces the braking effect momentarily, then when the gas disipates the braking force returns at a greater level than the original braking effort, this result is the activation of the ABS because you momentairily lock the wheel.

Upgrading the pads reduces the gassing and aleiviates the problems with ABS.

A customer who drives a MY10 3.5L Accord like a nutter recently upgraded to Greenstuff, previously plauged with ABS over-sensitivity is now a happy bunny.

Regarding upgrading brakes in relation to tire adhesion. Tyres have also developed a lot in the last 15 years there ability to withstand a break in traction is significantly more than before. Ofcourse it is possible to lock them up but you would need to shock or jolt the system un-naturaly to do this. We theen have the wonderous ABS to help you out too.

As far as novices are concerned - it is rare that a novice would be upgrading brakes, the ones we have come across have been given a good understanding into braking before hand.

[chav]

Yes, harder pads do cause a higher rate of rotor / disk wear but modern organic or ceramic compound pads with an ability to withstand higher heat are not harder. Traditionaly higher performance on pads was achieved by adding more metal which in turn eat up the disks. Material technology has advanced greatly and it is now normal for an upgrade pad to last as long or longer than an OE pad with no increased wear rate on the disk. Expect to see 40 to 50 k km from a pad and +100k on disks (depending on driving style). Be aware there are however still many high metalic loaded pads around which makes this a true statement.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic (absorbs water) so when exessive heat is generated the water boils giving a spongy peddle or sometimes no peddle; this is because boiled water (gas) is compressable. If you dont already use it step up to DOT 4 and change your fluid every year.

Upgrade pads dont produce more heat, they withstand more heat before gassing and failing. Driving normally on an upgrade pad will generate no more heat than the OE pad but you will have the extra capability there when you need it. OE discs are perfectly capable of handling extra heat generated by harder braking on an upgrade pad.

Our cusomers often joke about stopping so well they fear a rear ender however you really only need to brake so hard in an emergency. Most agree it is better to be hit up the back than run someone over or have to pay for the damage to the person in front. If you do get rear ended make sure they pay.

It is material technology that makes a good modern pad and a lot of the time served problems are now a thing of the past. It is unfortunate that the braking requirements of modern passenger vehicles have not progressed and that new vehicles can still be sold with pad technology from 15 years ago.

Many of our customer using late model cars have sworn never to go back to original equipment. Some addmittedly have taken some convincing but once a convert - always a convert.

Magic, reduced stopping distance without heating rotors more:rolleyes:

My experience with my own 8 LOS cars and trucks since 2003, and others vehicles, is that rotors last max 40k km after break in, due to overheating

I suggest you try looking at other breaking products.

I am not here to tell you all you are wrong - I agree with you and have seen it many times. I am here to tell you there are alternatives to the localy made parts that are totaly substandard compared to the European equivilent.

These locally made parts may have the advantage of saving money for you on the short term, the upgraded pads may stop you quicker than the OE but pay the difference and expect 100k.

[apetley]

In Thailand if your car/pickup is stock then easily the best way to improve your braking performance is to fit a decent set of tyres rather than the rock hard rubbish that is usually fitted.

[chav]

In Thailand if your car/pickup is stock then easily the best way to improve your braking performance is to fit a decent set of tyres rather than the rock hard rubbish that is usually fitted.

Changing your tyres can improve your handling and may reduce your stopping distance but they wont improve how your brakes feel and perform. You will still experience (and it may increase) the feeling of gassing after repetitive hard breaking.

[katabeachbum]

Yes, harder pads do cause a higher rate of rotor / disk wear but modern organic or ceramic compound pads with an ability to withstand higher heat are not harder. Traditionaly higher performance on pads was achieved by adding more metal which in turn eat up the disks. Material technology has advanced greatly and it is now normal for an upgrade pad to last as long or longer than an OE pad with no increased wear rate on the disk. Expect to see 40 to 50 k km from a pad and +100k on disks (depending on driving style). Be aware there are however still many high metalic loaded pads around which makes this a true statement.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic (absorbs water) so when exessive heat is generated the water boils giving a spongy peddle or sometimes no peddle; this is because boiled water (gas) is compressable. If you dont already use it step up to DOT 4 and change your fluid every year.

Upgrade pads dont produce more heat, they withstand more heat before gassing and failing. Driving normally on an upgrade pad will generate no more heat than the OE pad but you will have the extra capability there when you need it. OE discs are perfectly capable of handling extra heat generated by harder braking on an upgrade pad.

Our cusomers often joke about stopping so well they fear a rear ender however you really only need to brake so hard in an emergency. Most agree it is better to be hit up the back than run someone over or have to pay for the damage to the person in front. If you do get rear ended make sure they pay.

It is material technology that makes a good modern pad and a lot of the time served problems are now a thing of the past. It is unfortunate that the braking requirements of modern passenger vehicles have not progressed and that new vehicles can still be sold with pad technology from 15 years ago.

Many of our customer using late model cars have sworn never to go back to original equipment. Some addmittedly have taken some convincing but once a convert - always a convert.

Magic, reduced stopping distance without heating rotors more:rolleyes:

My experience with my own 8 LOS cars and trucks since 2003, and others vehicles, is that rotors last max 40k km after break in, due to overheating

I suggest you try looking at other breaking products.

I am not here to tell you all you are wrong - I agree with you and have seen it many times. I am here to tell you there are alternatives to the localy made parts that are totaly substandard compared to the European equivilent.

These locally made parts may have the advantage of saving money for you on the short term, the upgraded pads may stop you quicker than the OE but pay the difference and expect 100k.

according to Nissin, theyr products have the same quality made in LOS, US and EU.

[Isan Farang]

Yes, harder pads do cause a higher rate of rotor / disk wear but modern organic or ceramic compound pads with an ability to withstand higher heat are not harder. Traditionaly higher performance on pads was achieved by adding more metal which in turn eat up the disks. Material technology has advanced greatly and it is now normal for an upgrade pad to last as long or longer than an OE pad with no increased wear rate on the disk. Expect to see 40 to 50 k km from a pad and +100k on disks (depending on driving style). Be aware there are however still many high metalic loaded pads around which makes this a true statement.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic (absorbs water) so when exessive heat is generated the water boils giving a spongy peddle or sometimes no peddle; this is because boiled water (gas) is compressable. If you dont already use it step up to DOT 4 and change your fluid every year.

Upgrade pads dont produce more heat, they withstand more heat before gassing and failing. Driving normally on an upgrade pad will generate no more heat than the OE pad but you will have the extra capability there when you need it. OE discs are perfectly capable of handling extra heat generated by harder braking on an upgrade pad.

Our cusomers often joke about stopping so well they fear a rear ender however you really only need to brake so hard in an emergency. Most agree it is better to be hit up the back than run someone over or have to pay for the damage to the person in front. If you do get rear ended make sure they pay.

It is material technology that makes a good modern pad and a lot of the time served problems are now a thing of the past. It is unfortunate that the braking requirements of modern passenger vehicles have not progressed and that new vehicles can still be sold with pad technology from 15 years ago.

Many of our customer using late model cars have sworn never to go back to original equipment. Some addmittedly have taken some convincing but once a convert - always a convert.

Magic, reduced stopping distance without heating rotors more:rolleyes:

My experience with my own 8 LOS cars and trucks since 2003, and others vehicles, is that rotors last max 40k km after break in, due to overheating

I suggest you try looking at other breaking products.

I am not here to tell you all you are wrong - I agree with you and have seen it many times. I am here to tell you there are alternatives to the localy made parts that are totaly substandard compared to the European equivilent.

These locally made parts may have the advantage of saving money for you on the short term, the upgraded pads may stop you quicker than the OE but pay the difference and expect 100k.

Would you consider that Run Stop are providing substandard brake parts ?.

[WarpSpeed]

Regarding upgrading brakes in relation to tire adhesion. Tyres have also developed a lot in the last 15 years there ability to withstand a break in traction is significantly more than before. Ofcourse it is possible to lock them up but you would need to shock or jolt the system un-naturaly to do this. We theen have the wonderous ABS to help you out too.

As far as novices are concerned - it is rare that a novice would be upgrading brakes, the ones we have come across have been given a good understanding into braking before hand.

More presumptive rubbish! Not all cars have ABS and not all drivers are versed on how to brake properly, in fact a very small minority has even the slightest clue. Most just like the girl in a recent thread, who's English husband does some vehicle review show, purchased shiny new upgraded brakes (he thought to be copy Brembo's) as an accessory just to put bling on her car, that's the preponderance of drivers who upgrade.

I'd even go as far as saying that even the largest percentage of track drivers don't even know how to properly threshold brake consistently, if they did, they'd be much quicker. Some brake too much and others not enough but very few know what the ACTUAL limits are consistently so assuming the average Joe daily driver and those who NEVER really push them to the limits in daily driving is just..........Well...............Ass-u-ming.....

It's irrelevant whether or not tire technology has advanced because brake technology has advanced right along with it and today's brakes and compounds without upgrading are better at gripping then back in the day and they can still well over-power the tires grip..Jeeesus! I hope you're not a driving instructor....

Since I've gone this far why hold back for the finale. It's not gas that builds up between the pads either, it's brake dust and why most pads now a days have slots cut in them and as well so do rotors to vent out the dust that begins to act like a lubricant and in high heat conditions (heavy braking) can actually re-bond to the pad or rotor and glaze them and creates a shiny smooth surface which no longer grips well...

It's become obvious that you put up a thread hoping to make sales and that's all good but don't shovel misinformation and try to discredit FACTS just to accomplish that goal..

Edited August 15, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

In Thailand if your car/pickup is stock then easily the best way to improve your braking performance is to fit a decent set of tyres rather than the rock hard rubbish that is usually fitted.

100% spot on!!! wish I had said that .... Even if I did insinuate same....

Edited August 15, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[Kwasaki]

Motoring manufacturers have already done there homework, you can't tell me that standard issue brakes for cars and trucks aren't sufficient.

If I put my foot on the brake, the truck stops if I put my foot on the brake too hard the ABS kicks in, if your car/truck hasn't got ABS it will skid, what the bloody ell more do you want.

Bridgestone, Michelin, Goodrich, Pirelli are all good tyre and many others fitted to new models it's only the price that reflect what tyre the manufacturer fits to any particular model.

Even the chinese chin chong bloody tyres or what ever their called are Ok ! they just wear quick.

Stardard brakes quite good enough unless you want to pay through the nose for some nice bright shinney red calipers to show off with but don't forget to spray the back drums the same colour otherwise people think you have only got crappy standard brakes on the back.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Kwasaki

[katabeachbum]

Regarding upgrading brakes in relation to tire adhesion. Tyres have also developed a lot in the last 15 years there ability to withstand a break in traction is significantly more than before. Ofcourse it is possible to lock them up but you would need to shock or jolt the system un-naturaly to do this. We theen have the wonderous ABS to help you out too.

As far as novices are concerned - it is rare that a novice would be upgrading brakes, the ones we have come across have been given a good understanding into braking before hand.

More presumptive rubbish! Not all cars have ABS and not all drivers are versed on how to brake properly, in fact a very small minority has even the slightest clue. Most just like the girl in a recent thread, who's English husband does some vehicle review show, purchased shiny new upgraded brakes (he thought to be copy Brembo's) as an accessory just to put bling on her car, that's the preponderance of drivers who upgrade.

I'd even go as far as saying that even the largest percentage of track drivers don't even know how to properly threshold brake consistently, if they did, they'd be much quicker. Some brake too much and others not enough but very few know what the ACTUAL limits are consistently so assuming the average Joe daily driver and those who NEVER really push them to the limits in daily driving is just..........Well...............Ass-u-ming.....

It's irrelevant whether or not tire technology has advanced because brake technology has advanced right along with it and today's brakes and compounds without upgrading are better at gripping then back in the day and they can still well over-power the tires grip..Jeeesus! I hope you're not a driving instructor....

Since I've gone this far why hold back for the finale. It's not gas that builds up between the pads either, it's brake dust and why most pads now a days have slots cut in them and as well so do rotors to vent out the dust that begins to act like a lubricant and in high heat conditions (heavy braking) can actually re-bond to the pad or rotor and glaze them and creates a shiny smooth surface which no longer grips well...

It's become obvious that you put up a thread hoping to make sales and that's all good but don't shovel misinformation and try to discredit FACTS just to accomplish that goal..

good post warp:)

Your point about pad dust being heated and glazed on pads is the main point for every 10k service to remove and sand pads to get the hard glaced surface off

Its a fact most drivers apply to little pressure on pedal when panic braking an ABS equipped car, thus the car makers (Benz/Bosch developed) invention of Electronic Brake Assistance increasing power on brakes when applied rapidly.

Was shocked first time I drove a car without knowing it was equipped with EBA. Driving on slippery roads, I often create an oversteer entering curves by applying brakes for a fraction of second. Can go faster through the curves. With EBA, brakes still 100% applied for a couple of seconds after getting off the pedal, making car stop almost completely!!! Fortunately there is usually an on/off switch for active drivers:)

And for OP, replacing car manufactorers pads with your pads will for most modern cars have NO EFFECT at all. Larger calipers very small effect. Larger, vented, slotted rotors huge effect.

[chav]

Dual-circuit hydraulic systems are available on high-end luxury vehicles and newer motorbikes, in particular BMW bikes. These have two separate circuits. One is the command circuit - that's the one you act on with your hand or foot. The second is a separate circuit controlled by an onboard computer, and that's the one which is actually connected to the brakes. As you apply the brakes, you're sending a pressure signal via the command circuit to the brake computer. It measures the amount of force you're applying, and using a servo / pump system, applies the same force to the secondary circuit to activate the brakes. If you do something stupid like trying to slam on the brakes at 100mph, the computer will realise that this would result in a skid or spin, and will not send the full pressure down the secondary circuit, instead deciding to use it's speed and ABS sensors to determine the optimal brake pressure to maintain control of the vehicle. The advantage of a dual-circuit system is that the command circuit never gets heat transferred into it because it is totally separated from the brakes themselves. The disadvantage of course is that you now have two hydraulic circuits to maintain.

Read more: http://www.carbibles.com/brake_bible.html#ixzz0wkmGUcvV

This to me means that a better pad can stop a vehicle equiped with this system as the system will take advantage of the higher friction material and better thermal properties.

[chav]

And here is som info on brake fade:

If you ride a motorbike or drive a race car, you're probably familiar with the term brake fade which is used to describe what happens to brakes when they get too hot. A good example is coming down a mountain pass using your brakes rather than your engine to slow you down. By the First Law of Thermodynamics, as you start to come down the pass, the brakes on your vehicle heat up, slowing you down. But if you keep using the brakes, the drums or discs and brake pads will stay hot and get no chance to cool off. The next time you try to brake, because the brake components are already so hot, they cannot absorb much more heat. Once they get to this stage, you have to look at the brake pads themselves. In every brake pad there is the friction material which is held together with some sort of resin. Once this lot starts to get too hot, the resin holding the pad material together starts to vapourise, forming a gas. That gas has to have somewhere to go, because it can't stay between the pad and the rotor, so it forms a thin layer between the two whilst trying to escape. The result is very similar to hydroplaning; the pads lose contact with the rotor, thus reducing the amount of friction. Voila. Brake fade.

Read more: http://www.carbibles.com/brake_bible.html#ixzz0wkovkyhc

[katabeachbum]

And here is som info on brake fade:

If you ride a motorbike or drive a race car, you're probably familiar with the term brake fade which is used to describe what happens to brakes when they get too hot. A good example is coming down a mountain pass using your brakes rather than your engine to slow you down. By the First Law of Thermodynamics, as you start to come down the pass, the brakes on your vehicle heat up, slowing you down. But if you keep using the brakes, the drums or discs and brake pads will stay hot and get no chance to cool off. The next time you try to brake, because the brake components are already so hot, they cannot absorb much more heat. Once they get to this stage, you have to look at the brake pads themselves. In every brake pad there is the friction material which is held together with some sort of resin. Once this lot starts to get too hot, the resin holding the pad material together starts to vapourise, forming a gas. That gas has to have somewhere to go, because it can't stay between the pad and the rotor, so it forms a thin layer between the two whilst trying to escape. The result is very similar to hydroplaning; the pads lose contact with the rotor, thus reducing the amount of friction. Voila. Brake fade.

Read more: http://www.carbibles...l#ixzz0wkovkyhc

and the single most efficient way to avoid brake fade, is to increase rotors size and cooling

all brake pads I have seen past 2 decades have been slotted to let dust/gas/water escape easily

[chav]

And here is som info on brake fade:

If you ride a motorbike or drive a race car, you're probably familiar with the term brake fade which is used to describe what happens to brakes when they get too hot. A good example is coming down a mountain pass using your brakes rather than your engine to slow you down. By the First Law of Thermodynamics, as you start to come down the pass, the brakes on your vehicle heat up, slowing you down. But if you keep using the brakes, the drums or discs and brake pads will stay hot and get no chance to cool off. The next time you try to brake, because the brake components are already so hot, they cannot absorb much more heat. Once they get to this stage, you have to look at the brake pads themselves. In every brake pad there is the friction material which is held together with some sort of resin. Once this lot starts to get too hot, the resin holding the pad material together starts to vapourise, forming a gas. That gas has to have somewhere to go, because it can't stay between the pad and the rotor, so it forms a thin layer between the two whilst trying to escape. The result is very similar to hydroplaning; the pads lose contact with the rotor, thus reducing the amount of friction. Voila. Brake fade.

Read more: http://www.carbibles...l#ixzz0wkovkyhc

and the single most efficient way to avoid brake fade, is to increase rotors size and cooling

all brake pads I have seen past 2 decades have been slotted to let dust/gas/water escape easily

I totaly agree on the cooling for brake fade and I wish it was the case that slotted pads were the norm here, sadly the main dealers still sell one piece as the picture shows - looks like this one couldnt take the heat. (This is an OE pad)

[katabeachbum]

And here is som info on brake fade:

If you ride a motorbike or drive a race car, you're probably familiar with the term brake fade which is used to describe what happens to brakes when they get too hot. A good example is coming down a mountain pass using your brakes rather than your engine to slow you down. By the First Law of Thermodynamics, as you start to come down the pass, the brakes on your vehicle heat up, slowing you down. But if you keep using the brakes, the drums or discs and brake pads will stay hot and get no chance to cool off. The next time you try to brake, because the brake components are already so hot, they cannot absorb much more heat. Once they get to this stage, you have to look at the brake pads themselves. In every brake pad there is the friction material which is held together with some sort of resin. Once this lot starts to get too hot, the resin holding the pad material together starts to vapourise, forming a gas. That gas has to have somewhere to go, because it can't stay between the pad and the rotor, so it forms a thin layer between the two whilst trying to escape. The result is very similar to hydroplaning; the pads lose contact with the rotor, thus reducing the amount of friction. Voila. Brake fade.

Read more: http://www.carbibles...l#ixzz0wkovkyhc

and the single most efficient way to avoid brake fade, is to increase rotors size and cooling

all brake pads I have seen past 2 decades have been slotted to let dust/gas/water escape easily

I totaly agree on the cooling for brake fade and I wish it was the case that slotted pads were the norm here, sadly the main dealers still sell one piece as the picture shows - looks like this one couldnt take the heat. (This is an OE pad)

all the Toyota and Honda pads (all fom Nissin) I have had replaced here since 2004 have been slotted

Tokyco same

[chav]

And here is som info on brake fade:

If you ride a motorbike or drive a race car, you're probably familiar with the term brake fade which is used to describe what happens to brakes when they get too hot. A good example is coming down a mountain pass using your brakes rather than your engine to slow you down. By the First Law of Thermodynamics, as you start to come down the pass, the brakes on your vehicle heat up, slowing you down. But if you keep using the brakes, the drums or discs and brake pads will stay hot and get no chance to cool off. The next time you try to brake, because the brake components are already so hot, they cannot absorb much more heat. Once they get to this stage, you have to look at the brake pads themselves. In every brake pad there is the friction material which is held together with some sort of resin. Once this lot starts to get too hot, the resin holding the pad material together starts to vapourise, forming a gas. That gas has to have somewhere to go, because it can't stay between the pad and the rotor, so it forms a thin layer between the two whilst trying to escape. The result is very similar to hydroplaning; the pads lose contact with the rotor, thus reducing the amount of friction. Voila. Brake fade.

Read more: http://www.carbibles...l#ixzz0wkovkyhc

and the single most efficient way to avoid brake fade, is to increase rotors size and cooling

all brake pads I have seen past 2 decades have been slotted to let dust/gas/water escape easily

I totaly agree on the cooling for brake fade and I wish it was the case that slotted pads were the norm here, sadly the main dealers still sell one piece as the picture shows - looks like this one couldnt take the heat. (This is an OE pad)

all the Toyota and Honda pads (all fom Nissin) I have had replaced here since 2004 have been slotted

Tokyco same

You are fortunate, the pad in question (although I was avoiding identifying it) is a Nissin from a G7 accord.

[chrisyork]

In the UK I have converted all my cars to run with GreenStuff pads on microgroove rotors for many years. The result is never less than a step change in braking performance. Because GreenStuff are a Kevlar based pad, they "Gas" between the pad and the rotor surfaces under load. If you don't groove the disc (or drill into the vented centre - but I don't like that as it introduces fracture sites to the rotor) the pad "floats" on the rotor and braking is far less than can be achieved against a grooved rotor. The grooves allow the gas to escape from under the pad.

Does anyone know where you can get GreenStuff in Thailand? Our Tiger 3.0D Auto is horrendously underbraked and could do with this attention! I do agree with an earlier poster that the next problem in line is being tail-ended by other ill braked Thai trucks, but I'd rather that option than not stopping at all!

Chris

[guzzi850m2]

When I bought my City 06 last year it had already mounted wider tires and Brembo brake calibers (red off course he-he) on all 4 wheels and the car can brake for sure. I also noticed when waiting at Honda (Pattaya -Sukhumvit) for an oil change that 3 out of 4-5 cars coming in/out had the same brakes setup as my car.

Anybody know if Honda's are born with weak brakes, I don't think so as we all know this is controlled, so it must be a "fashion" trend or??

[WarpSpeed]

And here is som info on brake fade:

If you ride a motorbike or drive a race car, you're probably familiar with the term brake fade which is used to describe what happens to brakes when they get too hot. A good example is coming down a mountain pass using your brakes rather than your engine to slow you down. By the First Law of Thermodynamics, as you start to come down the pass, the brakes on your vehicle heat up, slowing you down. But if you keep using the brakes, the drums or discs and brake pads will stay hot and get no chance to cool off. The next time you try to brake, because the brake components are already so hot, they cannot absorb much more heat. Once they get to this stage, you have to look at the brake pads themselves. In every brake pad there is the friction material which is held together with some sort of resin. Once this lot starts to get too hot, the resin holding the pad material together starts to vapourise, forming a gas. That gas has to have somewhere to go, because it can't stay between the pad and the rotor, so it forms a thin layer between the two whilst trying to escape. The result is very similar to hydroplaning; the pads lose contact with the rotor, thus reducing the amount of friction. Voila. Brake fade.

Read more: http://www.carbibles...l#ixzz0wkovkyhc

and the single most efficient way to avoid brake fade, is to increase rotors size and cooling

all brake pads I have seen past 2 decades have been slotted to let dust/gas/water escape easily

Yes and as well we are talking very extreme conditions here and not everyday average Joe driver again. Not even tooling around at a pretty good clip through the mountains of Phuket or equally twisty elevation changes should over tax ANY OEM brakes to that point let alone if they have any respectable after market replacement pad to qualify that though I would add brakes that are already bedded in (heat cycled) for some time and not new..

Several years ago I did that with a Honda Jazz I rented and they got their workout you can bet but while they wore out (already quite worn)I never experienced anything even close to brake fade from overheated brakes nor was I lacking brake pedal until they were too well gone..

[WarpSpeed]

and the single most efficient way to avoid brake fade, is to increase rotors size and cooling

all brake pads I have seen past 2 decades have been slotted to let dust/gas/water escape easily

I totaly agree on the cooling for brake fade and I wish it was the case that slotted pads were the norm here, sadly the main dealers still sell one piece as the picture shows - looks like this one couldnt take the heat. (This is an OE pad)

all the Toyota and Honda pads (all fom Nissin) I have had replaced here since 2004 have been slotted

Tokyco same

You are fortunate, the pad in question (although I was avoiding identifying it) is a Nissin from a G7 accord.

Well a quick grind with a die grinder will take care of that and should have been done were the dealer competent and had taken proper notice. I noticed however that EBC pads don't seem to come with a standard groove in them either? What's up with that?...

[WarpSpeed]

In the UK I have converted all my cars to run with GreenStuff pads on microgroove rotors for many years. The result is never less than a step change in braking performance. Because GreenStuff are a Kevlar based pad, they "Gas" between the pad and the rotor surfaces under load. If you don't groove the disc (or drill into the vented centre - but I don't like that as it introduces fracture sites to the rotor) the pad "floats" on the rotor and braking is far less than can be achieved against a grooved rotor. The grooves allow the gas to escape from under the pad.

Does anyone know where you can get GreenStuff in Thailand? Our Tiger 3.0D Auto is horrendously underbraked and could do with this attention! I do agree with an earlier poster that the next problem in line is being tail-ended by other ill braked Thai trucks, but I'd rather that option than not stopping at all!

Chris

Does your Green stuff have groves of their own? Other brands do, if the manufacturer knows this then why don't they address it??