Reds Back Out In Chiang Mai

[jdinasia]

Wasn't the protest peaceful when it started back in March, when the numbers were high?

The burn Bkk threats seemed to mainly come as a deterrent to violent dispersal, which looked an increasing probability as, like in April 2009, the Democrat led government was again most fortunate in having a certain powerfully aligned military regiment on its side, and the redshirts in their desperation were foolish to accept help from certain rogue military elements that were opposed to the aforementioned powerfully aligned regiment)

At the same time PM Abhisit had acted completely contradictory to the way he advised the PPP government should have acted when faced with the PAD protests, occupation of government house & airports (see previous quote for an example)

The other thing to remember that the redshirt protests are a response to a military coup, backed up by judicial intervention (which has over-ridden the winners of the previous 4 national elections), so their anger is certainly justified. It is well documented that injustice leads to violence, so personally I am quite surprised that they have remained relatively peaceful for so long.

I know all hel_l would break loose in most wetern democracies if similar events had happened in those countries.

No ... Arisaman was threatening to burn BKK BEFORE the armed insurrection began in BKK. The violent rhetoric began well before the "protest" started. In fact Arsiaman said from stage just to bring empty bottles to BKK to burn it. That they would fill them there. I am sure someone would be happy to post the Youtube of this for you. Remember this is the same Arisaman that was involved in the violence the year before.

BTW discussing the LM laws is not against the rules.

[ianf]

By re-distribution of wealth and justice to all people? Yes. Increase the tax for the rich, that will make the rich less rich. Free stuff for the poor; free food, house, bus, electricity, water, etc. Some already done by Mark government already like free electric, bus, water. Free schooling for the poor, that will make uneducated people educated. This again has been done by Mark government.

I agree - particularly more tax for the rich - but your belief that the present government is going to stand up for the poor and hit the rich and stop corruption is innocent and charming but never going to happen.

Thailand, whom we all love, is decades behind in almost all aspects particularly law and education.

They should start with banning censorship – allowing free speech? A good start? but I do not think it is going to change anytime soon unfortunately.

Have to remember that Mark & Co has done great decision when they invested for free education in all Thai government schools until 15 years of age!

What greater investment can they do than education, and this is for the poor as rich kids will go to private schools anyway.

I have recently spoken to some Thai people who's 7-year old son does not go to school "because he does not want to". Instead he spends all day riding motorbikes through his village. These people proudly wear red shirts. So you can provide education, sorry you can bring the horse to water but you can't make him drink it!

[ogb]

Arisaman can hardly be called 'red leaders' , however I agree he's a known hothead, and the real red leaders should not have let him anywhere near the stage (other than to sing:)

So what do you think of PM Abhisit attempting to incite hatred with the CRES laughable conspiracy mind map?

[philw]

By re-distribution of wealth and justice to all people? Yes. Increase the tax for the rich, that will make the rich less rich. Free stuff for the poor; free food, house, bus, electricity, water, etc. Some already done by Mark government already like free electric, bus, water. Free schooling for the poor, that will make uneducated people educated. This again has been done by Mark government.

I agree - particularly more tax for the rich - but your belief that the present government is going to stand up for the poor and hit the rich and stop corruption is innocent and charming but never going to happen.

Thailand, whom we all love, is decades behind in almost all aspects particularly law and education.

They should start with banning censorship – allowing free speech? A good start? but I do not think it is going to change anytime soon unfortunately.

Have to remember that Mark & Co has done great decision when they invested for free education in all Thai government schools until 15 years of age!

What greater investment can they do than education, and this is for the poor as rich kids will go to private schools anyway.

I have recently spoken to some Thai people who's 7-year old son does not go to school "because he does not want to". Instead he spends all day riding motorbikes through his village. These people proudly wear red shirts. So you can provide education, sorry you can bring the horse to water but you can't make him drink it!

What is your point and why was last nights demo so frightening for you??

What is it that you fear so much ??

I know a rich yellow shirt family that proudly bought their 15 year old, still in shorts, no licence and no ability, a series 3 BMW not so long ago.

He drives it up and down bangna trad highway to school.......

So what ?

Edited August 23, 2010 by philw

[ogb]

[i have recently spoken to some Thai people who's 7-year old son does not go to school "because he does not want to". Instead he spends all day riding motorbikes through his village. These people proudly wear red shirts. So you can provide education, sorry you can bring the horse to water but you can't make him drink it!

What's the point of that generalisation?

How about this one:

"I think people are blind idiots if they accept military coups"

[philw]

[i have recently spoken to some Thai people who's 7-year old son does not go to school "because he does not want to". Instead he spends all day riding motorbikes through his village. These people proudly wear red shirts. So you can provide education, sorry you can bring the horse to water but you can't make him drink it!

What's the point of that generalisation?

How about this one:

"I think people are blind idiots if they accept military coups"

Yep.

[jdinasia]

I have recently spoken to some Thai people who's 7-year old son does not go to school "because he does not want to". Instead he spends all day riding motorbikes through his village. These people proudly wear red shirts. So you can provide education, sorry you can bring the horse to water but you can't make him drink it!

What is your point and why was last nights demo so frightening for you??

What is it that you fear so much ??

I know a rich yellow shirt family that proudly bought their 15 year old, still in shorts, no licence and no ability, a series 3 BMW not so long ago.

He drives it up and down bangna trad highway to school.......

So what ?

So ... he's going to school!

[moe666]

Abhisit and Korn have stepped up to the plate when it comes to accepting responsibility imho ...

The different tactics used by the PAD and the Reds deserved and got different results. The previous Thaksin backed governments had options and blew it. The current government was given no options and maintained power. So far the current government has ended the concept of "mob rule" in Thailand and done so admirably. Are they perfect? Not even close! Is Suthep the hawk amongst the doves? Oh yeah!

The PAD played a tight game that they understood. They only had to hold out and discredit the Thaksin backed government. The Reds played a different game based on the need to place Thaksin (or his cronies) back in power before October. They did it through the threat of extreme violence which opened the door for a totally different response.

If the Reds had the same goals as the PAD and better strategists they could have had similar results. They didn't.

And when offered the big cake with extra whipped cream they thru it back at the host.

[philw]

I have recently spoken to some Thai people who's 7-year old son does not go to school "because he does not want to". Instead he spends all day riding motorbikes through his village. These people proudly wear red shirts. So you can provide education, sorry you can bring the horse to water but you can't make him drink it!

What is your point and why was last nights demo so frightening for you??

What is it that you fear so much ??

I know a rich yellow shirt family that proudly bought their 15 year old, still in shorts, no licence and no ability, a series 3 BMW not so long ago.

He drives it up and down bangna trad highway to school.......

So what ?

So ... he's going to school!

And if he kills someone on the way, it will be their fault and he won't have a problem.( He has a rich family )

Please get real, you approve of 15 year olds driving high speed cars illegally on the grounds it helps their school attendance ?

Sort of negates your other highly moral stances.

[jdinasia]

Kids in Thailand drive. I don't know that the kid doesn't have a license for sure (and I doubt the other poster does either) since I know you can get a bike license at 15.

I drove (legally) at 14 in the US (where I am from). It was a "high speed car" with far worse braking and control functions than a new Beamer. My other friends couldn't drive until they were 16.

Expecting driving to be a "moral stance" is kinda silly ... now if you asked about drink driving ... I would have a different opinion. (That would condemn many posters from this board to never driving again! --- that based on drink driving threads)

[philw]

Kids in Thailand drive. I don't know that the kid doesn't have a license for sure (and I doubt the other poster does either) since I know you can get a bike license at 15.

I drove (legally) at 14 in the US (where I am from). It was a "high speed car" with far worse braking and control functions than a new Beamer. My other friends couldn't drive until they were 16.

Expecting driving to be a "moral stance" is kinda silly ... now if you asked about drink driving ... I would have a different opinion. (That would condemn many posters from this board to never driving again! --- that based on drink driving threads)

"Please get real, do you approve of 15 year olds driving high speed cars illegally on the grounds it helps their school attendance ?"

Any answer to the question ?

[jdinasia]

Kids in Thailand drive. I don't know that the kid doesn't have a license for sure (and I doubt the other poster does either) since I know you can get a bike license at 15.

I drove (legally) at 14 in the US (where I am from). It was a "high speed car" with far worse braking and control functions than a new Beamer. My other friends couldn't drive until they were 16.

Expecting driving to be a "moral stance" is kinda silly ... now if you asked about drink driving ... I would have a different opinion. (That would condemn many posters from this board to never driving again! --- that based on drink driving threads)

"Please get real, do you approve of 15 year olds driving high speed cars illegally on the grounds it helps their school attendance ?"

Any answer to the question ?

I neither approve nor disapprove. High speed cars or beaters or motorcycles ... illegally? a bit of fact finding would be nec. before that is determined but it is easier to condone a kid driving to school than a kid (even younger) driving and not going to school.

I'll dig out my test manual tmw and see if a 15 y/o can get a license for a car here.

The FACT is that kids in Thailand drive. Driving to school beats the heck out of driving around and skipping school.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Kids in Thailand drive. I don't know that the kid doesn't have a license for sure (and I doubt the other poster does either) since I know you can get a bike license at 15.

I drove (legally) at 14 in the US (where I am from). It was a "high speed car" with far worse braking and control functions than a new Beamer. My other friends couldn't drive until they were 16.

Expecting driving to be a "moral stance" is kinda silly ... now if you asked about drink driving ... I would have a different opinion. (That would condemn many posters from this board to never driving again! --- that based on drink driving threads)

"Please get real, do you approve of 15 year olds driving high speed cars illegally on the grounds it helps their school attendance ?"

Any answer to the question ?

I neither approve nor disapprove. High speed cars or beaters or motorcycles ... illegally? a bit of fact finding would be nec. before that is determined but it is easier to condone a kid driving to school than a kid (even younger) driving and not going to school.

I'll dig out my test manual tmw and see if a 15 y/o can get a license for a car here.

The FACT is that kids in Thailand drive. Driving to school beats the heck out of driving around and skipping school.

Has this thread now become about driving? The point is that some rich, yellow family could not care less about farmers and the poor and bought their son a BMW when he is only 15 and not earn't a baht or contributed to society - don't you see this is the whole point? The inequality of it all? Don’t you 'get it'?

Can we get back on topic? Pleeze?

[jdinasia]

BTW -- underage driving MAY be a moral issue after all .. reflecting on the morals of the parents or society. Drink driving IS a moral issue and the forums here certainly condemn many farang on that issue (look back at past polls/topics on drink driving in Thailand by farang!)

What I don't know is wether or not driving a car at 15 is illegal or not. The kid from the example isn't the issue if it is illegal. I do know that driving a motorcycle under the age of 15 IS illegal and accepted by Thai society. So your issue isn't a moral one but perhaps you have an issue with the society's standards. The fact is that Thai kids drive. Driving to school is in my relativistic moral compass better than driving and not attending school

Real enough for you?

In fact this topic IS about driving and everything else Thai. There is inequality everywhere. Here, the West, etc etc ... That said child is driving to school will likely make him a contributing member of society where the other child being truant will likely make him nothing more than what he already is.

But yes .... let us return to the original topic. Redshirt propaganda and the fear and loathing it is instilling in people here in Chiang Mai.

Edited August 23, 2010 by jdinasia

[philw]

Kids in Thailand drive. I don't know that the kid doesn't have a license for sure (and I doubt the other poster does either) since I know you can get a bike license at 15.

I drove (legally) at 14 in the US (where I am from). It was a "high speed car" with far worse braking and control functions than a new Beamer. My other friends couldn't drive until they were 16.

Expecting driving to be a "moral stance" is kinda silly ... now if you asked about drink driving ... I would have a different opinion. (That would condemn many posters from this board to never driving again! --- that based on drink driving threads)

"Please get real, do you approve of 15 year olds driving high speed cars illegally on the grounds it helps their school attendance ?"

Any answer to the question ?

I neither approve nor disapprove. High speed cars or beaters or motorcycles ... illegally? a bit of fact finding would be nec. before that is determined but it is easier to condone a kid driving to school than a kid (even younger) driving and not going to school.

I'll dig out my test manual tmw and see if a 15 y/o can get a license for a car here.

The FACT is that kids in Thailand drive. Driving to school beats the heck out of driving around and skipping school.

Has this thread now become about driving? The point is that some rich, yellow family could not care less about farmers and the poor and bought their son a BMW when he is only 15 and not earn't a baht or contributed to society - don't you see this is the whole point? The inequality of it all? Don’t you 'get it'?

Can we get back on topic? Pleeze?

THANK YOU !!!

[Tywais]

What I don't know is wether or not driving a car at 15 is illegal or not.

Just to clarify this so we can get back on topic. 18 years is the legal age to drive a car, 15 for mc up to 110cc and 18 for more the 110cc.

http://bangkok.angloinfo.com/countries/thailand/driving.asp

http://driving.information.in.th/driving-licence.html

[mcgriffith]

OK, back on topic.

The Reds had a gathering here, the first since emergency law was lifted in Chiang Mai province.

As far as I know, it was a peaceful demonstration, the purpose of which was to honour those who lost their lives in the events April and May.

Much of the angst I detect in previous posts above are from ardent anti-red folks.

Kind of reminds me of a Republican from Nebraska living in a lesbian co-op in Berkeley, California.

Get used to it. This is largely Red country, whether you like it or not.

Disclaimer: I am neither Red nor Yellow. Nor Pink nor Blue. I just want Thailand to work its way through these divisions in society. As a farang, I have become thoroughly disgusted by the whole political scene here.

But still read all the Thai political news obsessively.....beats watching Fox News anyday....

[nikster]

A lot of us were sympathetic before they turned down the PM's peace deal and before May 19, but actions speak louder than words. I'm afraid that they will be forever defined by their actions on that terrible day.

Yes. Before we just speculated that they were up to no good. On that day they proved it.

[jdinasia]

What I don't know is wether or not driving a car at 15 is illegal or not.

Just to clarify this so we can get back on topic. 18 years is the legal age to drive a car, 15 for mc up to 110cc and 18 for more the 110cc.

http://bangkok.anglo...and/driving.asp

http://driving.infor...ng-licence.html

Thanks ...

So the 2 examples given were both illegal and one had the moral high ground of driving to school and not for truancy reasons!

McG --- I am not angst ridden about the reds at all (I am anti-Thaksin and thus anti-red ... that doesn't mean that I think the non-Thaksin involved issues surrounding the reds do not have merit!) I would say that Chiang Mai is far less obviously Red than it was 8 months ago. Many people are quite fed up with both sides but particularly the reds up here

[Ulysses G.]

Kind of reminds me of a Republican from Nebraska living in a lesbian co-op in Berkeley, California.

There is a lot to be said for lesbians, no matter your political persuasion.

[Jingthing]

Kind of reminds me of a Republican from Nebraska living in a lesbian co-op in Berkeley, California.

There is a lot to be said for lesbians, no matter your political persuasion.

This is true. Most everybody likes both Dutch people and Dykes.

[mcgriffith]

[mrtoad]

There was a ton of them at Thapae Gate last night with redshirt speakers on stage and selling Thaksin T shirts - etc. They behaved themselves though.

They normally do at the start, and then....

Sadly they have far too much recent history to be seen as "peacful protesters for democracy".

Maybe they are protesting at Thaxsin being fired by the Cambodians.

[sbk]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/KG31Ae02.html

This from July of 2009. So, perhaps the history is not so recent after all.

I guess freedom of speech and assembly is applied on a case by case basis

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/376/news.shtml#hd4

[Theoutsider]

There is no law in England curtailing protesting or commenting on ANY institution - this is not absolute free speech but a basic human right in any civilised country - this is so basic a human right I am amazed you challenge it

yes there is

Police Conditions on Marches

There is no guarantee that the police will allow your proposed procession to take place as you want it. The police have extensive powers to impose conditions on marches, and even to ban them. In advance, the Chief Constable (or the Metropolitan Police Commissioner in London) can impose conditions relating to the route, number of marchers, types of banners or duration, or restrict entry to a public place. These conditions must be in writing. After the procession has begun the most senior officer on the spot can impose similar conditions, which do not have to be in writing. The POA says that conditions can be imposed only if the senior officer reasonably believes that the procession may result in:

• Serious public disorder; or
• Serious damage to property; or
• Serious disruption to the life of the community.

The senior officer may also impose conditions if he or she reasonably believes that the purpose of the organisers is to intimidate others 'with a view to compelling them not to do an act they have a right to do, or to do an act they have a right not to do'. The conditions must be ones that the officer believes are necessary to prevent disorder, damage, disruption or intimidation.

Where organisers have sufficient notice of proposed conditions, they can be challenged in the courts (see below: Challenging Police Decisions). In particular, with the incorporation of the Convention, the police are under a positive duty not to act incompatibly with the Convention and conditions may be challenged on the grounds that they are excessive or unreasonable, or do not respect Convention rights such as Article 10 and Article 11.

Failure to comply with a valid condition, properly imposed, is a criminal offence with different penalties for organisers and other participants.

[cardholder]

Good to see that they cannot be cowed into submission, despite their kind being killed, detained and censored.

Unfortunately, not enough of them

That really is very ugly.........

Calling for more death and destruction are you ??

Very smart.

Don't make assumptions Mr w.

I was referring to a number of key people that were not detained - notably, one spotted singing in Cambodia recently.

I abhor violence and abhor what the reds did in Bangkok.

[mccw]

Quote-------

Has this thread now become about driving? The point is that some rich, yellow family could not care less about farmers and the poor and bought their son a BMW when he is only 15 and not earn't a baht or contributed to society - don't you see this is the whole point? The inequality of it all? Don’t you 'get it'?

[-----------

THANK YOU !!!

-----end quote------

I get it.... basically you resent people with money. You think reds are team poor people and so repeate their lies coz u identify with them. If you could open your brain a little you might realise that not all poor people are reds, only those looking for a quick fix instant wealth handed down from their patron; most poor people just want to get on and work, provide for their familys, send kids to school. The example u give of sum redshirt kid in the village driving around all day and their pArrents don't care is prime example the kind of people the extreemistists red seem to be; on the other side I know poor farming yellow shirts who love their country and king, work hard, save their money and send their kids to school rather than blow it on lowkow and karryoky. You are like the lowkow mans all bitter and angry about how someone else has more than them "o it's so unfair, the innequality" - news flash - lifes not fair and all people are not born equal ! You make the best of the hand your dealt or not, down to the individuals.

If you realy cared about the lot of the poor then this governments policies should be embrased; but actualy it's not about poor or policy, it's about jellously ; you just want your side to win never mind the facts, the policies or any of the rest of it; just for them to win because they share the same jelousy, greed and resentment; thats why reds cannot be reasoned with, negotiated with or even engaged in any kind of sensible debate; that's why any point countered with fact is instantly forgoton and another rubbish line presendented as reasoning and so on endlessly round in cirlces; actually no real points, i don't even beleive you believe half what you say, just keep put out words to give reason to these irrational emotions your all feeling.

get a grip!

Btw what kind of cars do you think thaksins kids drive?

Do rich redshirts and pt/ ppp/ ptp people not try to buy their kids out of trouble? This is a problem with the police who are largely the left overs of thaksin time, as are most of the problems reds are using as an excuse; but No point trying you reason with you though as I've already realised it's impossible.

I gave up posting on these kinds of threads for quite a while as it's so sad that there are people like this. I hope Thailand never succumbs to your kind. It is litterally like a small but noticable percentage of the population have actualy lost their minds.

[sbk]

actually, the point of this thread is not about some rich yellow family in Bangkok. The point of this thread is about red shirt demonstrations in Chiang Mai. So perhaps we should all agree to go along with mcgriffiths suggestion to stay on topic.

[wolf5370]

Kind of reminds me of a Republican from Nebraska living in a lesbian co-op in Berkeley, California.

There is a lot to be said for lesbians, no matter your political persuasion.

This is true. Most everybody likes both Dutch people and Dykes.

What's that story about the little Dutch boy who puts his finger in dykes?

Unfortunately, and as usual, any thread containing even a mention of coloured shirts brings out the politically brainwashed.

The post was about the Reds back on the streets in CM and the fact that it is frightening and detrimental to tourism and business as they march in a tourist hot spot.

I saw a few at the train station the other day - took me by surprise a little as I got used to not seeing red shirts about. In my café songtaew and tuktuk drivers stop to eat, many wore red shirts for months leading up to and during the BKK unpleasantness, but have not sported one since.

BTW commenting on reds in a negative way does not make one 'yellow' as commenting on yellows in the same manor does not make one 'red'. One can be a bystander and comment on what one sees and how one feels without taking an oath of allegiance!

Edited August 24, 2010 by wolf5370

[cyberia]

I believe that many people are much misinformed or just don't know whats going on with the red movement

both in the past and present. Myself included.

A few weeks ago I asked my GF, who is from the South, 30 yo, Uni educated and holds a decent job in BKK, what she thinks about the reds.

Her answer was "They are stupid" , I said, OK, but can you tell me why you think they are.

and she says "Well, I don't want to talk about it"

Done.

Avoidance aka head in the send is a cultural thing. I'm not the judge of whether it's good or bad but it certainly have caused and will again the troubles that ppl of Thailand face.

Edited August 24, 2010 by cyberia