Anger Over Red Shirts Riot Autopsy Reports

[webfact]

VIOLENCE AFTERMATH

Anger over riot autopsy reports

By Pongphon Sarnsamak

The Nation

Relatives, rights activists say DSI release not good enough

Human-rights activists and relatives of victims of the April 10 and May violence are disappointed over the Department of Special Investigation (DSI)'s preliminary autopsy reports on red-shirt protesters killed during the clashes with troops.

"I haven't seen any clear information about progress in the investigation of my son's death in the DSI announcement," said Pansak Srithep, whose 17-year-old son Samaphan Srithep was killed on May 15 at Soi Rang Nam.

"For me, the DSI's investigation into the case was inefficient. It just followed the political game," he said.

The DSI's deputy director and spokesman, Pol Colonel Naras Savestanan, announced yesterday the preliminary results of autopsies on red-shirt protesters killed during the government crackdown at Kok Wua Intersection and Rajprasong Avenue.

More than 90 people were killed during the clashes, including Japanese Reuters cameraman Hiro Muramoto, who died on April 10, and Italian freelance photographer Fabio Polenghi, killed on May 19. The bloody clashes injured more than 1,500 people.

Naras said the DSI had received only 42 autopsy results from officials in each jurisdiction. The results were compiled by the Metropolitan Police Bureau for the DSI. They included autopsies on six people who died mysteriously inside Wat Pathum Wanaram on May 19 after troops cleared red-shirt protesters from the Rajprasong intersection.

DSI's announcement did not give any individual case details, such as cause of death and who may have killed the victims, saying the investigation was not yet complete. Naras said the DSI had the medical report about the causes of death but would not reveal it yet.

"We know some were shot by bullets from the back to the front," he said. "We do not have any information about individual cases.

"The DSI will need more time to find pieces of the jigsaw and collect more evidence. When we have it, we will make it public," he said.

According to Ministry of Justice policy, he said, the DSI had given priority to the case of the two foreign journalists, as the results would be sensitive to relationships with Japan and Italy.

"We have reported to the agencies, embassies, and their relatives on progress in these two cases," Naras said.

Four witnesses had given testimony at the police station about the death of Muramoto, saying he was killed by government security officials. Naras said this report was not true, as he had checked with these witnesses and they had not confirmed how the cameraman died.

Pansak said the DSI should report publicly about the autopsies and progress of the investigation into individual cases, not only details of the two foreign journalists.

Citing information he had researched from a YouTube post by a French Internet surfer who captured video of his son's death on May 15, Pansak said Samaphan was the first killed at Soi Rang Nam. There had been no announcement or warning from the troops stationed in the area.

Payao Akkahad, whose daughter Kamolkade - a paramedic - was killed in Wat Prathum Wanaram on May 19, said there was no progress on her death, even though she had informed the Crime Suppression Division at Pathum Wan about it three months ago.

Human Rights Watch Thailand senior researcher Sunai Phasuk said he was not satisfied with the DSI's announcement of the preliminary autopsy results, as there was no information about cause of death or the type of weapons that killed victims during the clashes.

After talks with Japanese Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada during his official visit to Thailand, Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya said they discussed reviving bilateral cooperation after a six-year gap due to the two countries' internal political problems. Okada also asked him about investigations into the death of Muramoto. Kasit told him the DSI was working on the case and he would keep Okada posted as the investigation progressed.

-- The Nation 2010-08-24

[virtualtraveller]

Cynically speaking, I doubt the DSI will reveal the full truth, for it would likely be quite damning. However, if you want to point fingers and get outraged you should be asking for a dual investigation here;

1. The manner in which these people were killed

2. The circumstances which brought them there in the first place.

Both are responsible, and both reprehensible.

[animatic]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

[jayboy]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

[SomTumTiger]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

Thanks for that spanky...

[hoaker]

My condolescence goes out to the family who will never see justice served for the death of their sons, daughters, friends, parents cousins and siblings!!!!

[chuang]

Say and think what you like...there is definitely going to be a cover-up..

[asiawatcher]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

Agree totally - and the Reds covered, destroyed or damaged the security CCTV cameras (for what ever reason?) that could have exhonerated some of their bogus claims - play with the big boys someone is bound to get hurt or dead! Som num na. And maybe the truth will never be revealed as everyone is finger pointing but no one 'witnessed it'? To be sure - a cover up all around.

Edited August 24, 2010 by asiawatcher

[PoorSucker]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

High speed bullets are constructed so that they crumble on impact leaving only fragments that causes more damage.

[philw]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

Agree totally - and the Reds covered, destroyed or damaged the security CCTV cameras (for what ever reason?) that could have exhonerated some of their bogus claims - play with the big boys someone is bound to get hurt or dead! Som num na. And maybe the truth will never be revealed as everyone is finger pointing but no one 'witnessed it'? To be sure - a cover up all around.

90 dead and a couple of thousand injured and " Som num na " is it ???

Of course they were shot by the army and of course there is a cover up but eventually this will or should rebound on the current government.

And please don't bother to respond with the usual rubbish that they were all shot by their own side because it's laughable.

[TAWP]

If you attack someone with guns and get shot...'Som num na' is what my (red shirt leaning) GF called it. And I agree.

[PoorSucker]

90 dead and a couple of thousand injured and " Som num na " is it ???

Of course they were shot by the army and of course there is a cover up but eventually this will or should rebound on the current government.

And please don't bother to respond with the usual rubbish that they were all shot by their own side because it's laughable.

The numbers include killed and wounded soldiers.

[geovalin]

[whybother]

90 dead and a couple of thousand injured and " Som num na " is it ???

Of course they were shot by the army and of course there is a cover up but eventually this will or should rebound on the current government.

And please don't bother to respond with the usual rubbish that they were all shot by their own side because it's laughable.

You're the only person I've seen that suggested that all the reds were shot by their own side.

[SamritT]

If the Japanese are happy, and the Italian are happy, why can't us Thai are happy with DSI results?

[TPI]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

Agree totally - and the Reds covered, destroyed or damaged the security CCTV cameras (for what ever reason?) that could have exhonerated some of their bogus claims - play with the big boys someone is bound to get hurt or dead! Som num na. And maybe the truth will never be revealed as everyone is finger pointing but no one 'witnessed it'? To be sure - a cover up all around.

90 dead and a couple of thousand injured and " Som num na " is it ???

Of course they were shot by the army and of course there is a cover up but eventually this will or should rebound on the current government.

And please don't bother to respond with the usual rubbish that they were all shot by their own side because it's laughable.

Gosh!

It must be wonderful to be able to see through armoured cars and everything!

I wonder how all of those soldiers who were killed by M79 grenade launchers managed to work out how to fire their weapons straight up in the air so that the rounds could land back at their feet?? Silly me! You've known all along and kept it a secret?

[JetsetBkk]

If the Japanese are happy, and the Italian are happy, why can't us Thai are happy with DSI results?

Because we know better.

[ysaan]

If the Japanese are happy, and the Italian are happy, why can't us Thai are happy with DSI results?

Because we know better.

they are not happy.

The sister of the italian reporter who has been shot and killed in cold blood, came to Thailand and had a conference.

She was terrorized already during the conference, a day later she has been warned by an unidentified military to go back to Italy immediately otherwise she would have been killed.

These are her words (I don t have a reason to think she was liying since she really left after that) and if you don't believe me or her,you are free to go to Italy and ask her for yourself.

[LikeHeat]

It would be terrible to lose a child and I feel great anguish for those that did, but maybe next time (yes the Reds seem intent on having a next time) tell your children to stay home where they will be safe. Also tell anybody trying to cover security cameras to stop doing that. You have to know that if someone disables security cameras they do not want any evidence afterwards, and perhaps you should ask the big question -- WHY is that? Those cameras might very well have caught some pictures to show how some of the people were shot and who the shooters were. It is quite clear the Government did not cover the cameras, and was solely done by the Reds, so clearly it is the Reds not wanting answers, yet they are clearly the only ones crying for answers now. Go figure.

In a war situation bullets are flying and people get hit. If you are not ready for that then don't go into the war zone. It seemed pretty obvious to me which areas were to be avoided.

The really sad thing is that there could have been November elections and instead the Reds are now planning a repeat once Bangkok has the SOE removed. Do they want to destroy the country?

[jdinasia]

If the Japanese are happy, and the Italian are happy, why can't us Thai are happy with DSI results?

Because we know better.

they are not happy.

The sister of the italian reporter who has been shot and killed in cold blood, came to Thailand and had a conference.

She was terrorized already during the conference, a day later she has been warned by an unidentified military to go back to Italy immediately otherwise she would have been killed.

These are her words (I don t have a reason to think she was liying since she really left after that) and if you don't believe me or her,you are free to go to Italy and ask her for yourself.

Please document this outrageous claim with a news source.

[Mario2008]

Please keep the discussion civil and comment on each others point of view, not the person itself and don't make false claims or claims you can back-up.

I would like to see where Ysaan gets his facts from.

[Buchholz]

It would be terrible to lose a child and I feel great anguish for those that did, but maybe next time (yes the Reds seem intent on having a next time) tell your children to stay home where they will be safe. Also tell anybody trying to cover security cameras to stop doing that. You have to know that if someone disables security cameras they do not want any evidence afterwards, and perhaps you should ask the big question -- WHY is that? Those cameras might very well have caught some pictures to show how some of the people were shot and who the shooters were. It is quite clear the Government did not cover the cameras, and was solely done by the Reds, so clearly it is the Reds not wanting answers, yet they are clearly the only ones crying for answers now. Go figure.

Very good points. While it's interesting to review footage of the moon, their original positioning would have captured street scenes.

While many were covered with cloth, others were simply tilted skyward by the Reds.

Red shirt protesters redirected CCTV cameras overlooking the area.

As for the "next time" you mentioned:

PTP MP and Red Leader On Bail Jatuporn said the Reds will organise political activities in the North to attack the government (hopefully only verbally) this Thursday, August 26.

Additional opportunities exist for the Red shenanigans are with the local Bangkok district elections to be held on August 29, where the PTP, like during their loss for the Bangkok MP by-election, will once again be competing against the Democrats.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Buchholz

[dighambara]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

Agree totally - and the Reds covered, destroyed or damaged the security CCTV cameras (for what ever reason?) that could have exhonerated some of their bogus claims - play with the big boys someone is bound to get hurt or dead! Som num na. And maybe the truth will never be revealed as everyone is finger pointing but no one 'witnessed it'? To be sure - a cover up all around.

Say what you will, the Red Shirts have valid gripes. Yes, the Yellow shirts also have a valid perspective. What perplexes me is that the twain never try to work together. Together, they could produce great improvements to Thailand's Government and eliminate corruption, without harming the culture.

However, T.I.T. where the Thai folks do it their way, no matter how illogical it seems to foreigners.

[dighambara]

If the Japanese are happy, and the Italian are happy, why can't us Thai are happy with DSI results?

Because we know better.

they are not happy.

The sister of the italian reporter who has been shot and killed in cold blood, came to Thailand and had a conference.

She was terrorized already during the conference, a day later she has been warned by an unidentified military to go back to Italy immediately otherwise she would have been killed.

These are her words (I don t have a reason to think she was liying since she really left after that) and if you don't believe me or her,you are free to go to Italy and ask her for yourself.

Please document this outrageous claim with a news source.

Excuse me, do you live in Thailand..?? How could you live here and not hear about such things?

Nay - I apologize - mine is the impression of a foreigner who sees what he regards as repression, greed, corruption, arrogance and ignorance, every day.

[rubl]

they are not happy.

The sister of the italian reporter who has been shot and killed in cold blood, came to Thailand and had a conference.

She was terrorized already during the conference, a day later she has been warned by an unidentified military to go back to Italy immediately otherwise she would have been killed.

These are her words (I don t have a reason to think she was liying since she really left after that) and if you don't believe me or her,you are free to go to Italy and ask her for yourself.

Please document this outrageous claim with a news source.

Excuse me, do you live in Thailand..?? How could you live here and not hear about such things?

Nay - I apologize - mine is the impression of a foreigner who sees what he regards as repression, greed, corruption, arrogance and ignorance, every day.

I'm not sure you need to live in Thailand to have heart some. Also lots of hearsay, rumors, etc. Certainly in Thailand you may hear almost anything depending on who you ask

[Siripon]

Thaksin and the red leaders has seized central Bangkok and they wanted martyrs, of course they didn't want to die themselves, so Thaksin went shopping in a luxury mall with his daughter in Paris whilst the red leaders surrendered as soon as they heard some loud bangs near the stage.

Does anyone remember Thaksin's words that as soon as a shot was to be fired by soldiers in April 2009, he would rush back and be at the front of the demonstrators? What a coward and despicable human being he is.

But the red shirt leaders had spent the previous 2 months on stage, urging and inciting hatred against the government, they couldn't persuade the red shirts to go home, they had fooled them completely that final victory was just around the corner.

The government had said time and again on TV, and with speakers, that the seizure was illegal, there were buses to take people home. Sadly those fooled by red rhetoric didn't take up the offer, so Ratchprasong had to be taken back by force.

I would conclude in the heat and stress of the conflict it's quite possible soldiers shot some of those killed, don't forget they had already seen their own officers killed by the black shirts, but the soldiers are not going to admit any killing to their commanding officers, the truth will never be known.

[jdinasia]

they are not happy.

The sister of the italian reporter who has been shot and killed in cold blood, came to Thailand and had a conference.

She was terrorized already during the conference, a day later she has been warned by an unidentified military to go back to Italy immediately otherwise she would have been killed.

These are her words (I don t have a reason to think she was liying since she really left after that) and if you don't believe me or her,you are free to go to Italy and ask her for yourself.

Please document this outrageous claim with a news source.

Excuse me, do you live in Thailand..?? How could you live here and not hear about such things?

Nay - I apologize - mine is the impression of a foreigner who sees what he regards as repression, greed, corruption, arrogance and ignorance, every day.

I'm not sure you need to live in Thailand to have heart some. Also lots of hearsay, rumors, etc. Certainly in Thailand you may hear almost anything depending on who you ask

I am STILL waiting on ANY reliable documentation of the claims made by Ysaan that the sister of the dead Italian journalist was "terrorized" and by whom. Perhaps dighambara can provide us with a credible source?

[moe666]

There is enough blame to go around in this affair, but neither side will stand up at the table and admit it. The reds killed people as well as the government but in a mess like this good luck getting it right. When you play with guns sh-t happens.

Edited August 24, 2010 by moe666

[IvanDobsky]

It would be terrible to lose a child and I feel great anguish for those that did, but maybe next time (yes the Reds seem intent on having a next time) tell your children to stay home where they will be safe. Also tell anybody trying to cover security cameras to stop doing that. You have to know that if someone disables security cameras they do not want any evidence afterwards, and perhaps you should ask the big question -- WHY is that? Those cameras might very well have caught some pictures to show how some of the people were shot and who the shooters were. It is quite clear the Government did not cover the cameras, and was solely done by the Reds, so clearly it is the Reds not wanting answers, yet they are clearly the only ones crying for answers now. Go figure.

In a war situation bullets are flying and people get hit. If you are not ready for that then don't go into the war zone. It seemed pretty obvious to me which areas were to be avoided.

The really sad thing is that there could have been November elections and instead the Reds are now planning a repeat once Bangkok has the SOE removed. Do they want to destroy the country?

well said.

They don't want to destroy the country, just the current regime. They don't realise they are harming their own country. Just like they don't realise how their own trash will cause a problem in the future.

I too wish they could keep their kids out of it, but there is obviously word from up high about a big propaganda coup. A couple of kids hit is a big positive for the PR spin.

Don't expect this to end with an election in the new year, I don't think some people can wait that long

[powderpuff]

I just wish the authorities had reacted more harshly & sooner once the plan of the terrorists became known.