Should The Gay Forum Be Formally Changed To Include Transgendered People?

[Jingthing]

Would you support an official change in the definition of this forum to formally include transgendered people to join in here? Of course, they may want their own forum but I doubt there are the numbers to support that.

Isn't the current text description of this forum --

Community forum for alternative lifestyle in Thailand.

very dated? Who says alternative lifestyle these days? No offense meant, but in my experience mostly purple haired old suburban ladies. Why not the community forum for gay, lesbian, and transgendered people in Thailand?

I feel that transgendered people are a sexual minority that face discrimination in most societies, and in that sense have a lot in common with gay and lesbian people. I think transgendered type topics from that perspective fit in quite well on the gay forum. For example, there was a topic a while back of a western transgendered person asking if it would be comfortable to publicly present in female clothing in Thailand. On the other hand, a topic about some drunken punter who accidentally picked up a chick with a dick on Walking Street most definitely is not a fit here. Not speaking for the mods, but isn't that obvious? Of course there are lots of grey areas topics not that obvious.

Important caveat -- this poll and thread is for discussion purposes only. If the results show a consensus to make changes to this forum, that is a moderation decision. The intent of this thread is not to pressure things one way or the other, just to open up this question for discussion.

Cheers.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Regrets about the misspelling trangendered (s/b transgendered) in the poll. Mods, please correct if you would like.

BTW, here is a pretty good explanation of what transgendered people are --

People who need to step outside the average gender stereotypes are called transgendered. The term transgendered is actually an umbrella term that covers a lot of different levels and means different things to different people. Trans people, both young and old, express their gender (their own personal mix of masculine and feminine traits) differently than society would expect them to, given the sex they were born with. Some trans people identify as the opposite gender (i.e., they were born female but internally identify as masculine/boy/man or they were born male but internally identify as feminine/girl/woman). For other trans people, their masculine/feminine gender identity is more fluid: neither masculine, or feminine, or both, or either on any given day or even moment!

Most people think that being transgendered has something to do with a person's sexual orientation, but it doesn't. It only has to do with how someone expresses their own particular balance of so-called masculine and feminine traits. Heterosexual people could be transgendered, gay people could be transgendered, lesbian people could be transgendered, and bisexual people could be transgendered.

http://www.ifge.org/Article140.phtml Edited September 1, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Any other comments that aren't weird rants about the Boyztown Brigade?

Edited September 1, 2010 by Jingthing

[endure]

The only transsexual regular on Thaivisa (Bambina) spent most of her time in the Farang Pub forum. She spent very little time in here.

[Jingthing]

Fair enough. But to me "alternative lifestyle" is so 1970's and suggests a fashion or hobby. Such as a surfing lifestyle or a tennis bum lifestyle. A persons sexual orientation and/or sexual minority status is not as superficial as that, it reflects their inner self.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Thanks to those who have voted. It seems a pattern is emerging.

[Jingthing]

Imagine this scene.

Mom, Dad, I have something very important to tell you. Please sit down. I am living an ALTERNATE LIFESTYLE!

You have to imagine it because it has probably NEVER happened.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/421355/coming_out_a_cartoon_movie/

Edited September 2, 2010 by Jingthing

[peridot]

I much prefer "the community forum for gay, lesbian, and transgendered people in Thailand". Alternative lifestyle can mean many things -- hippies, alcoholics, squatters, actors, artists, IV drug users, etc. It is far too vague. We don't need to hide in the shadows here.

[SweatiePie]

The only transsexual regular on Thaivisa (Bambina) spent most of her time in the Farang Pub forum. She spent very little time in here.

Maybe she felt that she wasn't welcome, as I've done for years (I'm TG , not TS).

I've read the forum for longer than I've had boobs, but I've never posted before or joined as we could see weren't wanted here. Even though only a couple of people don't want us they make a lot of noise about it. Maybe things'll change thanks to this poll.

FWIW transexual isn't the same as transgender, but most of us don't like being called trannies or trans-anything by anyone (except a doctor!). If they've had the ops they're transexual and 100% "girls", and none of those I know'll be interested in anything or anyone here (no offence). If not most of us are happy with "ladyboy" or "gay", even if some of you aren't.

There was a post here before suggesting re-naming the forum the Rainbow Forum for LGBTTS matters in Thailand, or something like that, but now that's gone. That would have been . Come on guys, we're not freaks or rejects any more than you are so don't make us feel we are.

[Jingthing]

I certainly would support more inclusive language in naming the forum around the theme of sexual minorities, whatever that may be. But lets face it folks, whatever the exact wording of any change IF there is any change (that's the mods call) is not going to fully please everyone for a plethora of reasons. So if there is eventually a change to more inclusive language, I think that would be an improvement.

For example, the language we use about ourselves can be very emotionally loaded and vary based on what culture we come from and also our age group. The use of the word Queer for example to talk about ourselves doesn't really offend me, I get it, but it doesn't really resonate with me much as it does with some younger people. Calling it Rainbow Forum for LGBTTS may make some people feel like the "Radical Faeries" have taken over and will not relate to that. Like I said, no language choice would feel exactly right for everyone.

I also can't really imagine much resistance to participation by a broader range of sexual minorities (BTW, where are the lesbians?), that is as long as it was from the perspective of the actual sexual minorities.

That all said, even though I did this poll, I am not particularly super passionate about the idea of changing the language for this forum. I thought it was worth discussing. If a change is made, I will be pleased, if not, it won't ruin my sleep. Just wanted to make it super clear I personally am not PUSHING anything here.

On a related subject, why is there such poor participation in this forum? I don't think it's about the lack of inclusion of other sexual minorities, I still think "mainstream" gay males are the bulk of the sexual minorities on this board. I think its because we can't talk much about the kinds of more "fun" things that are talked about on the more specialized gay forums about Thailand. That is always going to be a limitation here, it's rather G rated. Just saying.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Jingthing

[Thules]

Interesting post, Jingthing.

I voted for the subject being included within the gay forum, although I can imagine this not being entirely popular with some who also appreciate having their own forum already.

However, it would at least provide an established forum platform if it really is so difficult to create a separate forum.

Personally, I think your second post was more informative, and that's what's needed for some of us folk who aren't so well aware of differences in definitions to become more aware of others' differing circumstances and the issues they face as a result.

[JohnLeech]

.................

There was a post here before suggesting re-naming the forum the Rainbow Forum for LGBTTS matters in Thailand, or something like that, but now that's gone. ..........

SweatiePie, my apologies for not replying earlier I will try to pick my words more carefully this time.

I actually said that I thought that the title of the Forum should be changed to The Rainbow Forum and that instead of being for "those with an alternative lifestyle" it should be "for the discussion of LGBTTS (Lesbian, Gay, Transsexual and Two Spirit) issues in Thailand."

I've had some second thoughts after reading the actual Forum name, and I don't see any name change as necessary, although I think the description should be updated rather than changed. The description "Community Forum for alternative lifestyle in Thailand" is not only dated (and very poor English) but as far as I am aware most gay people now have a broadly similar "lifestyle" to the one they would have if they were straight, except that their partner is of the same sex. Updating it to "for the discussion of LGBTTS (Lesbian, Gay, Transsexual and Two Spirit) issues in Thailand" would not technically be a change (see below), just a better explanation.

It all comes down to what is meant by the term "gay". The actual title of the Forum, which appears to be often overlooked, is "GAY PEOPLE IN THAILAND", so once again it seems that there is a considerable difference between the definition of "gay" in the English speaking world, what the Forum appears to be meant to be about, and what it appears to mean to some in this Forum. I choose the word "appears" carefully, as it is only my impression. As "people" specifcally means not only men it appears that the original aims of the Forum may have changed over time for some, as the term "gay people" is already inclusive of a broad range of sexual minorities.

The recognised definitions are very clear (note: these are the recognised definitions, not "my" definitions or "my" interpretation):

Wikipedia:

In modern English gay has come to be used as an adjective, and occasionally as a noun, referring to the people, practices and culture associated with homosexuality. By the end of the 20th century, the word gay was recommended by major style guides to describe people attracted to members of the same sex.

Just as the word "gay" is sometimes used as a shorthand for the term LGBT, so is "gay community" sometimes a synonym for the "LGBT community." In other cases, the speaker may be referring only to homosexual men. Starting in the mid-1980s in the United States, a conscious effort was underway within what was then called the gay community, to add the term 'lesbian' to the name of all gay organizations that catered to both male and female homosexuals, and to use the terminology of gay and lesbian, or lesbian/gay when referring to that community. So, organizations like the National Gay Task Force became the National Lesbian/Gay Task Force. For many ardent feminist lesbians, it was also important that the 'L' come first, lest an 'L' following a 'G' become another symbol of male dominance over women. In the 1990s, this was followed by another equally concerted push to include the terminology specifically pointing out the inclusion of bisexuals and transgendered people, reflecting an end to the intra-community debate as to whether these other sexual minorities were part of the same sexual liberation movement. Most news organizations have formally adopted this use, following the example and preference of the GLBT organizations, as reflected in their press releases and public communications. Today, many people interpret the phrase "gay community" to mean "the population of LGBT people."

Encarta:

attracted to same sex: relating to sexual attraction or activity among members of the same sex

gay man or lesbian: somebody, especially a man, who is attracted to other members of the same sex

Gay is preferred to homosexual. The adjective gay encompasses both men and women, but when there is a need to specify both genders, as in gay and lesbian alliances, gay describes men. Avoid using gay as a noun, as in He's a gay and Four gays walked in, because it can be taken to be offensive. Preferred substitutes are He is gay and Four gay people/men/women walked in.

FreeDictionary (Farlex):

Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.

A person whose sexual orientation is to persons of the same sex.

A man whose sexual orientation is to men: an alliance of gays and lesbians.

The word gay is now standard in its use to refer to people whose orientation is to the same sex, in large part because it is the term that most gay people prefer in referring to themselves. Gay is distinguished from homosexual primarily by the emphasis it places on the cultural and social aspects of homosexuality as opposed to sexual practice. Many writers reserve gay for males, but the word is also used to refer to both sexes; when the intended meaning is not clear in the context, the phrase gay and lesbian may be used. Gay is often considered objectionable when used as a noun to refer to particular individuals, as in There were two gays on the panel; here phrasing such as Two members of the panel were gay should be used instead. But there is no objection to the use of the noun in the plural to refer collectively either to gay men or to gay men and lesbians, so long as it is clear whether men alone or both men and women are being discussed.

Answers.com:

Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to members of one's own sex: homophile, homosexual, lesbian.

A person whose sexual orientation is to persons of the same sex

A man whose sexual orientation is to men: an alliance of gays and lesbians.

Dictionary.com

of, indicating, or supporting homosexual interests or issues: a gay organization.

a homosexual person, esp. a male.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

of, relating to, or used by homosexuals (the gay rights movement; a gay bar)

Gaylife.com:

related to, or having an emotional and physical attraction to the same sex.

Also known as: homosexual, queer

It would appear that while the majority of those responding to the poll (75%) clearly support a change in description and a broader member base, such a change is unnecessary,as the only answer to the original question (Should the gay forum be formally changed to include transgendered people?) can be "no, as it already does formally include transgendered people". What appears to be necessary is a little light reading and education for some members here, preferably after an update of the Forum's description.

Edited September 6, 2010 by sbk
discussion of moderation deleted

[Jingthing]

This "two spirit" thing is too freaky for my taste. If the language is changed, I wouldn't favor using that kind of language.

[kek]

I would like the gay forum to remain just that - The Forum for "Gay People in Thailand"

I see no need for any change and I don't want to be included with lesbians, bi-sexuals, transgendered, pre-op, post-op, katoey, alternative-left-handed-vegetarian-chicks-with-dicks-one-eyed-cross-dressing-whale-savers-with-premature-ejaculation-and-a-club-foot-dressed-like-a-freak-minority-group and I really wish that these fringe groups would stop pestering the gay community for "inclusion".

**** off and start your own group and stop tarnishing the gay community with your problems.

[Jingthing]

I would like the gay forum to remain just that - The Forum for "Gay People in Thailand"

I see no need for any change and I don't want to be included with lesbians, bi-sexuals, transgendered, pre-op, post-op, katoey, alternative-left-handed-vegetarian-chicks-with-dicks-one-eyed-cross-dressing-whale-savers-with-premature-ejaculation-and-a-club-foot-dressed-like-a-freak-minority-group and I really wish that these fringe groups would stop pestering the gay community for "inclusion".

**** off and start your own group and stop tarnishing the gay community with your problems.

Thanks for your input. However the forum is not currently named what you think it is.

It is NOT The Forum for "Gay People in Thailand"

It is

Gay People in Thailand

Community forum for alternative lifestyle in Thailand

[endure]

I would like the gay forum to remain just that - The Forum for "Gay People in Thailand"

I see no need for any change and I don't want to be included with lesbians,

Lesbians are 'gay people'. They're just not male gay people.

[JohnLeech]

.......... I don't want to be included with lesbians, bi-sexuals, transgendered, pre-op, post-op, katoey, alternative-left-handed-vegetarian-chicks-with-dicks-one-eyed-cross-dressing-whale-savers-with-premature-ejaculation-and-a-club-foot-dressed-like-a-freak-minority-group and I really wish that these fringe groups would stop pestering the gay community for "inclusion".

**** off and start your own group and stop tarnishing the gay community with your problems.

You already are included with them on this forum, as per any recognised definition of "gay people" (and "gay community"), whether you like it or not.

If they weren't included the forum would be called "Gay Men in Thailand" - or more accurately "Gay Men" or "The Gay Male Forum", as it is not specific to Thailand.

[JohnLeech]

This "two spirit" thing is too freaky for my taste. If the language is changed, I wouldn't favor using that kind of language.

Its American, based on Native American tradition.

LGBT (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual and trans-gender) covers the spectrum pretty well.

[Jingthing]

I would like the gay forum to remain just that - The Forum for "Gay People in Thailand"

I see no need for any change and I don't want to be included with lesbians,

Lesbians are 'gay people'. They're just not male gay people.

I think the women do prefer the word LESBIAN.

Backing off from anything fancy, what's wrong with the mainstream standard language?

LGBT referring collectively to lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people.wiki paraphrase.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Jingthing

[standingononefoot]

When I began visiting the gay forum at thaivisa, I didn't expect such a question to rise.

I thought there was no problem with topics dealing with ladyboys because they were, anyway, a minority amongst the others topics more "mainstream gay".

And also because, as some have already mentionned, in the west the transexuals and transgendered questions are often put in the same basket as gay and lesbian questions. They are all sexual minorities fighting for their rights.

Granted these groups are not always going hand in hand, as some can't stand others thinking probably it can cause them prejudice.

Now it seems the same on the gay forum after Jingthing had a topic and a poll on the subject with a long and heated debate going on, then there was a topic about men in frocks that got closed and its initiator punished, and now this poll again by jingthing.

Really I don't know if the gay forum should be formally changed. It seems so official.

The one ladyboy I got to know in Thailand I really treated like a woman even if I recognised her for not being born that way. I didn't care because I was attracted to her and even had feelings for her as time passed. It really was like attraction beetween two consenting persons (my side at least). Even if I didn’t go really far it left me with a lot of unanswered questions.

What hit me with that particular ladyboy and others I saw in Thailand was that there wasn't any fetischist aspects to them. Okay they were trying to look beautiful and even sexy, but as persons who wants to be seductive.

For me it didn’t seem like they were acting some fantasies to attract customers with special tastes.

Incidentally I would never call them « men in frocks » or « trannies » cause I find it very reductive.

I won’t try to give a definition of transgendered or transexual people, it’s been done already but I think it is always unsatisfactory as is trying to put individuals in boxes so you can make order on your shelf.

I’m sure though that they can be as sincere in their feelings as anybody else, and as insecure too.

When I began browsing the internet looking for information about that new word I learned in Thailand, « ladyboy », I stumbled on all kind of website in different colors and shapes.

What I found the most endearing in the gayforum at thaivisa, even if it wasn’t really about ladyboy by a long shot, was that people were sharing a bit of their stories and more than a bit of their feelings.

Of course I think that stories involving lb can belong here because they are often not as clear cut as « a man, a woman, relation, marriage, children,boredom, cheating, divorce, alimony (not necessarily in that order) kind of stories. I noticed there was a member at thaivisa who, I understood, was in a long term relationship with a thai lb, but interestingly I didn’t see any comment from his part in theses past questions probably because he’s more concerned now about a man, a woman, relation and marriage problem. Good for them, I hope they do without the boredom, cheating, divorce and alimony part. (I’m extrapolating here)

I, for one, think that posts like the one about a western guy asking if it was okay to dress up in Thailand, are interesting to read. It puts up front feelings of someone who doesn’t act really mainstream. It should have its place on the forum.

Of course he could create his own forum of "westerns guys wanting to dress up abroad" and would in company of like minded people with the same problems to resolve, but I do think a community is richer when its members are not all cut out of the same cloth.

So « alternatives lifestyles », but I too thinks it sounds like an old sixties cliché.

To end on a humorous note as I feel I’ve been boring serious, I often notice the word « troll » here and there to define someone. At first I thought : why are they talking about little bearded creatures that live in caves and wield battleaxes with deadly accuracy ? Then it occured to me it must have had something with unwelcomed people on the forum. Gasp, may be I was one.

So I made this sketch below.

Is this a troll or what ?

:jap:

[JohnLeech]

I do think a community is richer when its members are not all cut out of the same cloth.

Unfortunately, SOOF (?), a few people here prefer a bland diet to a rich one.

[Jingthing]

Funny cartoon. However, I reckon the question of whether to change the description of this forum and what exactly to change it to is about priority 50 million to the people running this site.

[endure]

The only transsexual regular on Thaivisa (Bambina) spent most of her time in the Farang Pub forum. She spent very little time in here.

Maybe she felt that she wasn't welcome, as I've done for years (I'm TG , not TS).

I suspect that she felt that the gay forum wasn't relevant to her as she's a full transsexual.

[Paagai]

Funny cartoon. However, I reckon the question of whether to change the description of this forum and what exactly to change it to is about priority 50 million to the people running this site.

Not just to the people running this site - but to about 99.99999% of humanity. Who cares - this is an anonymous Internet forum read by a small number of people - try keeping things in perspective! As gay people, who, generally, have a good understanding of prejudice, hatred and oppression we should be open to everyone and anyone(irrespective of how PC or otherwise the forum title maybe). If people of any persuasion want to join in that's fine by me, provided it's not with an agenda of spreading homophobic, or any other hatred.

On the other hand, a topic about some drunken punter who accidentally picked up a chick with a dick on Walking Street most definitely is not a fit here.

In your opinion maybe. It wouldn't be the first time I'd had a drunken encounter with a chick with a dick around Thapae gate (if it did fit here it wasn't a tight fit ).

I've met a few Farangs who've come to Thailand and started with ladyboys convincing themselves "it's OK they're not men" to hide their insecurities about their sexuality only to find within a few months they've metamorphised into full blown homosexuals. SHould they be excluded too?

[geriatrickid]

Who says alternative lifestyle these days? No offense meant, but in my experience mostly purple haired old suburban ladies.

ehrm, uhhh I am so not an old lady.

[Jingthing]

Who says alternative lifestyle these days? No offense meant, but in my experience mostly purple haired old suburban ladies.

ehrm, uhhh I am so not an old lady.

Gay people in general do NOT use it about OURSELVES. It is very out of fashion and never made any sense anyway as it TRIVIALIZES the issues around sexual orientation. This being the gay forum, should respect that. Its not derogatory, it's plain stupid.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Jingthing

[Scott]

I voted 'no' in the poll, but it's hardly a vehement 'no'. I assumed the issues facing the transgender community would be significantly different from the 'majority' on the forum. Perhaps I am wrong.

To posters like Sweetiepie, you and your opinion are welcomed in this forum and Thaivisa in general.

Thanks, Jingthing for posting the topic and hopefully it will generate a lot of discussion.

[sbk]

Frankly, I don't see george changing the forum TITLE at this late date. The forum description however, can probably be changed and if you really dislike "alternative lifestyle" then perhaps come up with something equally short, understandable to the masses and searchable on google

[SweatiePie]

"for LGBT topics" is pretty short and understandable for most people, SBK.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm not big on campaigning for a formal name change of the actual forum title for the same reasons SBK cites- it won't fly from a site management point of view. I'm not against changing the description; it was written so long ago that it could probably use an update at this point (although out of respect for our late founding mod, ChrisP none of us has altered his original posting so far). While I understand the desire for inclusive language, furthermore, I have yet to see any evidence that the gay subforum is *unwelcoming* to any form of interest in alternative gender; it's simply that (as I previously mentioned) most transgendered male-to-female types don't actually seem that interested in gay men (and most self-identified gay men, as self-reported even on this forum, are looking for other men who identify as *men* per se). In any case, until I see convincing signs that our gay members are MORE interested in ladyboy threads, and our straight members are LESS interested in them, it is highly likely that current trends in thread placement and moderating will remain unchanged.

So that's that. I'll add LGBT to the language in the welcoming thread, I'm closing this thread, and I do hope we won't be having more threads verging on discussion of subforum moderation policies in the near future.