CMU Fails To Provide Visa Support Documents

[thaiboy999]

I am a foreign student studying Thai language at the Language Institute of Chiang Mai University, starting with a 3-months non-immigrant visa. My class attendance has been 100% perfect. They said they will provide the necessary support documents for me to bring to the local immigration office to renew my visa when the 3 months are up. It was up last week actually but they are unable to provide any documents because their director of the Language Institute, on order from the university president, is refusing to sign any visa related documents. This has been going on for almost a month.

When I confronted the director on what we are supposed to do when our visas expire and we are unable to get a renewal, he said we should just let our visas expire. When I asked him about the potentially serious consequences of over staying with an expired visa, he recommended me "not to do anything dangerous", then it should be "OK". There are many other students who are affected by this irresponsible, unprofessional behavior of the Language Institute at CMU. We paid our tuition (for the entire year) in full, but when it comes to getting the necessary visa, they screw us up through and through.

Stay clear from this school if you are thinking of learning Thai in Chiang Mai. CMU doesn't really want farang students at the Language Institute anyway.

I'm checking out other schools like Payap, etc. Please let me know if you have any good recommendation. Thank you.

[kudroz]

If you do not apply for an extension of stay and overstay your current permission of stay, you will face a fine of 500 Baht a day up to a maximum of 20,000 Baht once you exit Thailand or if/when you are discovered - whichever comes first.

Here is what I would do:

1) Go to the nearest police station to make a report of what the director told you. You will have to be thorough with the full name of the person, the approximate time at which it happened, etc.

2) Ask a respected member of the community (or hire a respected attorney if you don't know anyone who can help) to act as your proxy to the administration of the faculty. Explain that the information that was given to you could have cost you a lot of money had you not double checked. Insist on them figuring out a way to provide the documents you need to apply for the extension of stay.

3) If it doesn't work out, well... fly outside the country to get another Non-Imm visa. Investigate with an attorney if there isn't a way to negotiate with the school to get some of the money spent on your trip reimbursed or applied as a credit for next-year's tuition, etc.

[moe666]

What is your evidence they donot want farang students at the school, are you just shooting from the lip.

[blakegeee]

I have another friend that has had the exact same experience recently at CMU. I don't have any further advice for you, but I am just backing up your story. He figures that they owe a full refund since they are not providing what they agreed they would.

[harrry]

CMU has to realize it has allready lost a lot of credibility int4ernationally through Language Institite problems. It is CMU who people enroll with so it must accept the consequences of it's failures.

[0zz1]

I can also confirm this story. I have 2 friends who are now in Lao getting Non O visas as CMU failed to provide them with the documents. They overstayed for 1 week due the advice they got from CMU, but eventually decided to flee...

I had 4 year ED visa from Payap with no problems... so I would recommend to look there.

[0zz1]

and comment to my previous post i mean 4 x 1 year ED visa.

[Tod Daniels]

Having a HUGE interest in ANYTHING related to thai language studies by foreigners here, and being curious (since I'm not a cat, that in and of itself isn't usually fatal );

I just spent 40+ minutes on the phone being shuffled from office to office up there at CMU tryin' to get to the bottom of this quandary, as well as trying to reach the Director of the Thai Language Studies Program, who ever that is .

Actually FINALLY by calling the main number I got routed to a guy who spoke perfect english (for a thai) and he's gonna give my mobile to the Thai Language Study Department and have someone call me back (although it is my experience this is often a fruitless endeavor), but we will see.

If you can give me a contact name for the Thai Language Studies Department, and the contact phone number I'll call and see what is what about this. The contact number I have 053-94-3761, but no one answers it, so I am unable to ascertain if it's the correct number.

If this is indeed true (which I have no reason to doubt, as I just spoke to a currently enrolled foreign student in that program who mirrored your post) it is really sad. CMU has great textbooks and was previously known as a totally above board quality language school.

They also USED to provide you with documentation where you could get a full years extension of stay INSIDE the country once you paid your tuition as they're a 'real uni' not a private thai language school and their documentation from the Ministry of Education was different from the stuff most private thai language schools get.

If you don't wanna post the contact info here, send me a P/M. I will call 'em and make a follow-up post on here regarding the outcome IF I can get to the bottom of it.

Edited September 3, 2010 by tod-daniels

[Cooee]

I've enrolled and paid my deposit from abroad, due to start in November. I'm REALLY interested to find out what's going on.

[Tod Daniels]

I've enrolled and paid my deposit from abroad, due to start in November. I'm REALLY interested to find out what's going on.

My advice to you, IF indeed you’re in your home country and have documentation from CMU for their year long thai language course is:

Apply for a Multi Entry Year Long Non-Immigrant Type-ED Visa. Even students with documentation from private thai language schools (which is quite different from real university’s paperwork) can usually secure that type of visa at their home country’s Thai Embassy or Consulate.

With that type of visa you don’t need to extend it in country every 90 days. Every 90 days you just cross any border, and re-enter, getting another 90 days automatically. Plus if you do it one last time before the visa expires, you get another 90 days, making your stay here almost 15 months.

I’d seriously check into that option if I were you (which I’m not, but just saying. .)

As an aside, I tried that number for CMU’s Thai Language Study Program a coupla more times today but no one answered. Sadly no one ‘returned my call, despite the guys assurance someone would, go figure. ..

[Maestro]

thaiboy999 wrote:

When I confronted the director on what we are supposed to do when our visas expire and we are unable to get a renewal, he said we should just let our visas expire.

In the context of this topic it is acceptable to mention the name of the director of the Thai Language Institute of Chiang Mai University. It is most likely public information anyway.

P.S. I did a Google search and found this but do not know if the information is current:

Dr. Matthew John Kay

Director

International Programs

Language Institute

Chiang Mai University

Source: http://www.teflcmu.com/aboutus.html

Edited September 3, 2010 by Maestro
Added postscript

[Maestro]

In a situation like the one reported by the OP, my recommendation is to lodge a complaint by registered letter, addressed to the director of the institute, stating also any claim for refund of expenses one may have, perhaps with a copy to the university's president for his information, again by registered mail.

[Maestro]

tod-daniels, thank you for your efforts to get to the bottom of this even though you are not personally affected by the reported situation. The sooner this can be fully clarified, the better for the institute and its current and prospective students.

[Loaded]

thaiboy999 wrote:

When I confronted the director on what we are supposed to do when our visas expire and we are unable to get a renewal, he said we should just let our visas expire.

In the context of this topic it is acceptable to mention the name of the director of the Thai Language Institute of Chiang Mai University. It is most likely public information anyway.

P.S. I did a Google search and found this but do not know if the information is current:

Dr. Matthew John Kay

Director

International Programs

Language Institute

Chiang Mai University

Source: http://www.teflcmu.com/aboutus.html

The Australian company/individual which/who was marketing the CMU LI programs is still selling CMU LI programs with a 1-year ED visa through its/his website:

http://www.teflcmu.com/select-tefl-package.html

Is this company/individual still associated with CMU LI?

[harrry]

thaiboy999 wrote:

When I confronted the director on what we are supposed to do when our visas expire and we are unable to get a renewal, he said we should just let our visas expire.

In the context of this topic it is acceptable to mention the name of the director of the Thai Language Institute of Chiang Mai University. It is most likely public information anyway.

P.S. I did a Google search and found this but do not know if the information is current:

Dr. Matthew John Kay

Director

International Programs

Language Institute

Chiang Mai University

Source: http://www.teflcmu.com/aboutus.html

The Australian company/individual which/who was marketing the CMU LI programs is still selling CMU LI programs with a 1-year ED visa through its/his website:

http://www.teflcmu.com/select-tefl-package.html

Is this company/individual still associated with CMU LI?

Nowhere on ay website, document rceipt or any other official idication does it indicate people are dealigwith a company. Everything idicates that they are dealing with CMU directy and i fact are students of CMU. CMU may have contracted with a company to run these programs but as far as the student is concerned they are dealing with CMU. I elieve with the Language institure there may be two or possibly three diferent companies, One handling the TEFL and short Thai Courses and another handling the One year Thai programs and possibly a third dealing with te Volunteer program. To the student however he/she is still dealig with CMU.

[Loaded]

thaiboy999 wrote:

When I confronted the director on what we are supposed to do when our visas expire and we are unable to get a renewal, he said we should just let our visas expire.

In the context of this topic it is acceptable to mention the name of the director of the Thai Language Institute of Chiang Mai University. It is most likely public information anyway.

P.S. I did a Google search and found this but do not know if the information is current:

Dr. Matthew John Kay

Director

International Programs

Language Institute

Chiang Mai University

Source: http://www.teflcmu.com/aboutus.html

The Australian company/individual which/who was marketing the CMU LI programs is still selling CMU LI programs with a 1-year ED visa through its/his website:

http://www.teflcmu.com/select-tefl-package.html

Is this company/individual still associated with CMU LI?

Nowhere on ay website, document rceipt or any other official idication does it indicate people are dealigwith a company. Everything idicates that they are dealing with CMU directy and i fact are students of CMU. CMU may have contracted with a company to run these programs but as far as the student is concerned they are dealing with CMU. I elieve with the Language institure there may be two or possibly three diferent companies, One handling the TEFL and short Thai Courses and another handling the One year Thai programs and possibly a third dealing with te Volunteer program. To the student however he/she is still dealig with CMU.

I agree that CMU are responsible. Whether these programs were run directly by them, an individual or an outside company on their behalf, they are still responsible. I mentioned company because one of the posts by an 'insider' on the thread that was running in the CM page mentioned it was an Australian company running the programs. I mentioned individual because until very recently course fees were paid in to the personal bank account of the Director of International Programs. Their website has now replaced personal bank details with a CMU TEFL email address.

However, I'm still not clear whether these programs are still running at the CMU LI. Reading the posts on the other thread it seems no, but the courses are still being marketed by the website quoted by Maestro above. Are people buying something that no longer exists?

Edited September 4, 2010 by Loaded

[Cooee]

I've enrolled and paid my deposit from abroad, due to start in November. I'm REALLY interested to find out what's going on.

My advice to you, IF indeed you're in your home country and have documentation from CMU for their year long thai language course is:

Apply for a Multi Entry Year Long Non-Immigrant Type-ED Visa. Even students with documentation from private thai language schools (which is quite different from real university's paperwork) can usually secure that type of visa at their home country's Thai Embassy or Consulate.

With that type of visa you don't need to extend it in country every 90 days. Every 90 days you just cross any border, and re-enter, getting another 90 days automatically. Plus if you do it one last time before the visa expires, you get another 90 days, making your stay here almost 15 months.

I'd seriously check into that option if I were you (which I'm not, but just saying. .)

As an aside, I tried that number for CMU's Thai Language Study Program a coupla more times today but no one answered. Sadly no one 'returned my call, despite the guys assurance someone would, go figure. ..

Thanks for your suggestions. I am indeed still in my home country but leave in 7 weeks. I don't have any documentation as yet, other than a receipt for my deposit which was paid quite some time ago. CMULI advised from the beginning that my Visa docs will get underway in early September...so fingers crossed. I'm keeping my eyes glued to this forum.

[sarahsbloke]

Thanks for your suggestions. I am indeed still in my home country but leave in 7 weeks. I don't have any documentation as yet, other than a receipt for my deposit which was paid quite some time ago. CMULI advised from the beginning that my Visa docs will get underway in early September...so fingers crossed. I'm keeping my eyes glued to this forum.

I would be very careful about handing over any more money.

(Personally I would consider the deposit lost and not waste any more time and money with CMU)

It might be an idea to contact Payap University in ChiangMai as I understand they run a similar course and can provide the Ed Visa documentation.

I also understand that you can get a 1 year non-immigrant O Visa to visit a friend in Thailand (Thai national) from the Thai consulate in Perth. Why not get your Visa before you come? no risk then!

Edited September 4, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[harrry]

I've enrolled and paid my deposit from abroad, due to start in November. I'm REALLY interested to find out what's going on.

My advice to you, IF indeed you're in your home country and have documentation from CMU for their year long thai language course is:

Apply for a Multi Entry Year Long Non-Immigrant Type-ED Visa. Even students with documentation from private thai language schools (which is quite different from real university's paperwork) can usually secure that type of visa at their home country's Thai Embassy or Consulate.

With that type of visa you don't need to extend it in country every 90 days. Every 90 days you just cross any border, and re-enter, getting another 90 days automatically. Plus if you do it one last time before the visa expires, you get another 90 days, making your stay here almost 15 months.

I'd seriously check into that option if I were you (which I'm not, but just saying. .)

As an aside, I tried that number for CMU's Thai Language Study Program a coupla more times today but no one answered. Sadly no one 'returned my call, despite the guys assurance someone would, go figure. ..

Thanks for your suggestions. I am indeed still in my home country but leave in 7 weeks. I don't have any documentation as yet, other than a receipt for my deposit which was paid quite some time ago. CMULI advised from the beginning that my Visa docs will get underway in early September...so fingers crossed. I'm keeping my eyes glued to this forum.

If you are in Australia I suggest you contact your state's consumer protection body. As the transaction occured as a result of a website viewed in Australia it is covered by state consumer protection laws. They will want you to write to them with a complaint and they will contact CMU eventually. You may have difficulty recovering the money in Australia however CMU may begin to realizwe the international ramefications of their apparent actions (or inaction)

[harrry]

Another website has been able to get a response. Due to forum rules I cannot supply a link but if you put the quote below into Google you should find it.

quote

An explaination. Friend had managed (after much effort) to contact someone 'at the top' of CMULI and was told that 'Thai Immigration had a suspicion that CMU was selling ED-visas to farangs not attending the courses and stopped all visas to students from CMU, not only language students. Many existing students have now illegal residence permit status as their visa could not be extended. It was a mess. Besides that there was a relevant change in administration staff at CMULI and the new employees are just not yet familiar with the daily business. Up to now they have a backlog of some 200-300 students waiting for their visa paperwork so the staff is completely overstrained. This might be why I got not answers to my emails.

Now there was a inspection at CMULI by Thai Immigration and they agreed that all documentation is correct and Visa will be issued again starting next Wednesday, 8. September.'

Friend was 'guaranteed that the course in November will be running and I will get the visa papers by end of next week (he would put my name somewhere on the top of the backlog). And of course I get a full refund if my Visa is refused.'

All of this may not be the most comforting news, but it is good to know what exactly is going on...just incase I have to change tack. CMULI is still advertising their four Thai Language courses as including a one year visa.

Edited September 5, 2010 by harrry

[Tod Daniels]

<SNIPPED for brevity as it's the previous post>

Actually that 'excuse' sounds like a 'crock of proverbial shit' . CMU is right up there with Chula, Mahidol, Thammasat, and other illustrious unis in the glorious "Land 'O Thais". Given the feed back by posters who live up there, Thai Immigrations in Chiang Mai has been known to be quite 'user friendly' and accommodating in most situations.

I think it's more likely the as you so succinctly quoted 'relevant change in administration staff at CMULI' (a polite way to put the new people 'couldn't find their ass with both hands' as far as extensions or visas are concerned ) is the real culprit in this extension quandary.

That CMU would actually encourage students to over stay their visas, is ludicrous at best, and down right reprehensible at the worst.

I'll still try to call the Language Institute on Monday. FWIW I already sent an email to the President of CMU just to try to sort this out.

Edited September 5, 2010 by tod-daniels

[Cooee]

Thanks for your suggestions. I am indeed still in my home country but leave in 7 weeks. I don't have any documentation as yet, other than a receipt for my deposit which was paid quite some time ago. CMULI advised from the beginning that my Visa docs will get underway in early September...so fingers crossed. I'm keeping my eyes glued to this forum.

I would be very careful about handing over any more money.

(Personally I would consider the deposit lost and not waste any more time and money with CMU)

It might be an idea to contact Payap University in ChiangMai as I understand they run a similar course and can provide the Ed Visa documentation.

I also understand that you can get a 1 year non-immigrant O Visa to visit a friend in Thailand (Thai national) from the Thai consulate in Perth. Why not get your Visa before you come? no risk then!

The plan of action is, outlined by CMULI, pay the deposit, they send you the visa docs (about a month before arriving) to sumbit to the Thai Consulate in my country, who then grant me the visa prior to entering Thailand. In CMULI's own terms and conditions it states that if the Thai Consulate does not grant me the visa, I am refunded 14000 out of my 15000 Baht. So, if I don't get the visa docs, I can't be granted a visa = hopefully a refund.

I'm giving it all a week or so, to see what pans out, before looking at other options.

[Tod Daniels]

NOTE TO THE O/P;

Id suggest calling or emailing your thai embassy (as you dont state your country, I dunno where you actually are) to see if using just the receipt of funds is enough for them to issue you a one year multi-entry Non-Immigrant Type ED visa. You indicated you don't leave for 7 weeks, and that's plenty long enough to secure a visa from where ever.

Some honorary consulates in the US have been known (in the recent past) to issue a year long multi-entry Non-Immigrant Type-ED to people with ONLY a letter typed by the student indicating his intent to study at this or that private thai language school (meaning he didn't even pay a single baht yet!)! That letter and an email from the school confirming this info was more than enough for them to issue a visa.

Then again, honorary consulates in the US, are pretty easy going as opposed to a real thai embassy which tends to be more of a stickler when it comes to interpreting the rules.

If youre reticent to write them, send me a P/M of where you are and what embassy youre gonna deal with and Ill email (or call em) as a prospective student in the thai language to see what they say they need as far as documentation, cost, etc.

Edited September 5, 2010 by tod-daniels

[harrry]

I might add that my withdrawal of full support for CMU has been due to the effect non or iregularly attending students have on courses which has been at least condoned by the administration despite the quality of the teachers.. If this is a sign of more stringent application of study demands to its potential stucents I would look on this change possitively.

The lack of communication and support to students and potential students is not what I would expect of an organization like CMU which did provide quality tuition.

I notice the website has had many changes lately and would advise people to read the terms carefully as they are very one sided.

[Tod Daniels]

I might add that my withdrawal of full support for CMU has been due to the effect non or iregularly attending students have on courses which has been at least condoned by the administration despite the quality of the teachers.. If this is a sign of more stringent application of study demands to its potential stucents I would look on this change possitively.

While this is slightly off topic I still feel it is of merit;

I completely concur, that lack of attendance on the part of thai language students is a chronic problem (especially in the private thai language school sector). I also believe it should be looked at in a much more critical manner by Thai Immigrations. I went so far as to have a meeting with the ‘Captain’ in the ED visa section at Changwattana to discuss this very topic.

Currently the minimum required hours of study are 16 hours a MONTH to continue in-country extensions of stay. Even if a student studied 4 hours a day for 4 days, they’d still qualify for an extension of stay, as the hours are specified by the month NOT the week.

However, in all the time I’ve assisted many, many ‘acquaintances’ in extending their ED visas at Changwattana; not a single time has the school provided a time sheet, or anything which shows the number of hours said student is actually studying the thai language.

I routinely make scans of all the paperwork which my ‘acquaintances’ have from various private thai language schools (more out of curiosity, than need). In reviewing a few of them just now; they only state the student has paid their tuition and is currently enrolled in the school. (There is only some vague language that the student meets the minimum criteria, and it's ambigious in its wording at best)

That someone would go the ED visa route, and then not have the wherewithal to spend the pathetically low 4 hours a week to study thai, is beyond belief to me.

BACK ON TOPIC

It's a shame this happened at CMU, as they do have a quality thai language program, and at least before had a really dedicated teaching staff which knew how to impart the thai language to foreigners in an efficient and interesting manner. They also have some killer material as far as learning thai too. I hope they get sorted out as they provided quite a good 'bang-4-the-baht' in terms of quality thai language instruction

[IMA_FARANG]

quote:

While this is slightly off topic I still feel it is of merit;

I completely concur, that lack of attendance on the part of thai language students is a chronic problem (especially in the private thai language school sector). I also believe it should be looked at in a much more critical manner by Thai Immigrations. I went so far as to have a meeting with the ‘Captain’ in the ED visa section at Changwattana to discuss this very topic.

end quote

Thanks tod_d..... From what I've seen posted recently I do believe you do really know what your talking about in these matters.

I'm not currently in that crowd, but as the Bible says," Those that have eyes, let them see; and they that have ears, let them hear.". Having both of those facilities myself, I can predict that it is very likely that in a short while the requiremwnts for ED visa will be strictly scrutinised, and followed to the letter by immigration. Did all of you scuba people down in Phuket "studying" for your PADI cetificate on ED visa in Thailnd hear that warning?

Probably not, don't think they read TV that much....but maybe one or two do.

Hopefully, that's a 'word to the wise'.

[Somnambulist]

I believe the individual's name is Matt Kay.

I met him a long time ago. He said he was an actor by trade and has no higher degree at all, despite saying he has a Ph.D. Caveat emptor.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Somnambulist

[TheWalkingMan]

16 Hours a month of study for an Education Visa is a joke and the person who signed off on this should be fired. Are work visas offered for 16 hours a month? Something like 20 hours a week is more appropriate for an Education Visa. I think that is the requirement in Japan.

Note that Japan had a similar problem with schools providing visas and the students doing a runner to find work. Essentially many of the schools became visa mills and the authorities cracked down on this and now the schools are required to keep better records and if too many students disappear, miss too many classes or turn illegal, the school can lose their license.

Thailand should implement something similar in terms of hours. The fact that they went after CMU seems odd as I would have thought that immigration would have gone after the smaller schools first and not one of the country's top institutions.

If I were on an Ed.V. I would be wondering about the future as it would not surprise me if immigration came out with a... From next week all persons on Education Visas will be required to attend 20 hours per week... Of course that would screw up the learning institutions in terms of scheduling and screw up students in terms of fees, but would immigration really care?

TheWalkingMan

[thaiboy999]

thaiboy999 wrote:

When I confronted the director on what we are supposed to do when our visas expire and we are unable to get a renewal, he said we should just let our visas expire.

In the context of this topic it is acceptable to mention the name of the director of the Thai Language Institute of Chiang Mai University. It is most likely public information anyway.

P.S. I did a Google search and found this but do not know if the information is current:

Dr. Matthew John Kay

Director

International Programs

Language Institute

Chiang Mai University

Source: http://www.teflcmu.com/aboutus.html

To clarify, the director I spoke with (who told me over staying my visa is "OK" as long as I don't do anything "dangerous") was a Thai person. He's apparently in charge of the whole LI of CMU. If you go to the Thai version of CMU LI website, scroll down on the main page to "CMULI Newsletter", click on it to open the PDF file. The director's face is in the first two pictures.

[thaiboy999]

Another website has been able to get a response. Due to forum rules I cannot supply a link but if you put the quote below into Google you should find it.

quote

An explaination. Friend had managed (after much effort) to contact someone 'at the top' of CMULI and was told that 'Thai Immigration had a suspicion that CMU was "selling" ED-visas to farangs not attending the courses and stopped all visas to students from CMU, not only language students. Many existing students have now illegal residence permit status as their visa could not be extended. It was a mess. Besides that there was a relevant change in administration staff at CMULI and the new employees are just not yet familiar with the daily business. Up to now they have a backlog of some 200-300 students waiting for their visa paperwork so the staff is completely overstrained. This might be why I got not answers to my emails.

Now there was a inspection at CMULI by Thai Immigration and they agreed that all documentation is correct and Visa will be issued again starting next Wednesday, 8. September.'

Friend was 'guaranteed that the course in November will be running and I will get the visa papers by end of next week (he would put my name somewhere on the top of the backlog). And of course I get a full refund if my Visa is refused.'

All of this may not be the most comforting news, but it is good to know what exactly is going on...just incase I have to change tack. CMULI is still advertising their four Thai Language courses as including a one year visa.

Thanks for the post. Your Friend's version of the story is probably close to the truth. My source also "at the top" of CMU LI told me a slightly different version of the story. The reason (which was never made public) Thai Immigration was suddenly all over CMU LI was some farang students have committed (or have been accused of committing) some hideous crime, which I would not specify. Because the "farang criminals" got their visas through CMU LI, Thai Immigration, justifiably or not, views the program and its remaining farangs in the LI with suspicion (to say the least). I was told that even if the LI director signs the support letters, Thai Immigration would not accept them right now if we take them to do our visa renewal. To me, Thai Immigration could do their inspection of paperwork and investigation and whatnot, but suspending visa renewal for students in good standing (like myself) and causing all these problems of overstaying... seems to be an overreaction.

Assuming that I do get the paperwork for renewing my education visa this Wed (won't hold my breath of course), could you tell me if I could obtain the visa locally in the CM office, or do I need to go out of the country, like to Vientiane? I'd prefer applying locally, of course; otherwise, that will be a lot of hassle - in terms of wasting both time and money - that none of us deserve. I suppose we just had the misfortune of choosing this school in this country at this time.