The Problem With Thai Face

[slipperx]

Last night went to Fuji for a meal with my two boys (aged 7 & 5). After my 5 yr old finished he said ' Right let's go' . I remarked that I had not finished my drink and that his brother had not finished eating and that in fact HE had not finished his drink either. He replied that his brother hadn't finished his drink either and I asked what that had to do with anything. Ensuing was a discussion on manners and responsibilty. This evening we came home and my 7yr old starting mopping the floor (I didn;t ask him to) and he said to his younger brother 'Hey you're not helping and I am doing the floor. It's your responsibility to lay the table' - which he did. Later he was making ice lollies and spilt the juice going into the ice lolly thing. I asked him who was responsible for spilling the drink and he looked at his brother then back at me (me shaking my head) and slowly, almost imperceptibly pointed to himself. I said 'never mind but clear it up' which he did.

A mundane story that got me thinking about how Thai's generally push the blame for their own misdeeds or failure to act onto someone else. Remembering back a waitress I was employing was talking about a potato but using the word tomato instead. After she finished I said ' Actually that is a potato not a tomato just for the record' She replied 'Oh I have a sore throat and that is why ,,,,' trying to save face. Now the real issue here is one of acceptance of responsibility for the things they do and it seems to be a real problem amongst Thais. You will often see a motorcyclist do a U turn in front of you from the left hand side and glare at YOU as if you did something wrong, or any one of a million other examples. The scrambled egg burnt because the saucepan no good, this or that can;t be done because the machine no good (then you show them how to use it), etc. etc.

The problem is that if you can pass off responsibility for the things you should do but don't, every time then it becomes a habit, culture even, where no-one accepts responsibility for their actions and as a result think everything they do is right - even though it is patently wrong.

Isn't this a bad thing? Or is it some Buddist issue where you can do what you like in this life as long as you understand you will be punished in the next one, so what the hel_l do as you please and become essentially totally self centred and selfish?

[anothertorres]

the age old "face loss" situation is the #1 obstacle which holds this country back. believe it.

[slipperx]

the age old "face loss" situation is the #1 obstacle which holds this country back. believe it.

That along with education and social acceptance of bribery and corruption.

[TheWalkingMan]

"After she finished I said ' Actually that is a potato not a tomato just for the record' She replied 'Oh I have a sore throat and that is why ,,,,' trying to save face."

So if you have a sore throat, potato is the word for tomato?

But yep, can't lose face no matter what the cost.

[DP25]

That's a 7 year old thing not a Thai thing. Your other examples are exactly the same you find with most people in every country

[IanForbes]

I understand what the OP is trying to say, and yes, it IS a common fault with Thais that probably has something to do with Buddhist way of thinking. But, not taking responsibility for your own actions is a world wide problem, and more associated with poorly educated people. Of course, I also see it happen with the very wealthy as well. The very wealthy feel they can do anything they want to anyone they want with no repercussions. A typical example of that is the whole oil industry.

It is nice to see the OP trying to train his children to be responsible for their own actions. Good child rearing is the most important thing anyone can do in their entire life. It will affect the children's entire lives and everyone they come in contact with.

Thai children are taught that anything a superor says is the gospel truth. Unfortunately, what a superior says is not always the truth and there in lies the problem. By contrast, North Americans question all authority and that can also cause problems. There needs to be a balance.

When I'm in Thailand I am constantly amazed how many Thais accept their actions as being some sort of Buddhist fate that they have no responsibility for.

[cdnvic]

One post was removed for being excessively derogatory to Thais.

[mmh8]

I understand what the OP is trying to say, and yes, it IS a common fault with Thais that probably has something to do with Buddhist way of thinking. But, not taking responsibility for your own actions is a world wide problem, and more associated with poorly educated people. Of course, I also see it happen with the very wealthy as well. The very wealthy feel they can do anything they want to anyone they want with no repercussions. A typical example of that is the whole oil industry.

It is nice to see the OP trying to train his children to be responsible for their own actions. Good child rearing is the most important thing anyone can do in their entire life. It will affect the children's entire lives and everyone they come in contact with.

Thai children are taught that anything a superor says is the gospel truth. Unfortunately, what a superior says is not always the truth and there in lies the problem. By contrast, North Americans question all authority and that can also cause problems. There needs to be a balance.

When I'm in Thailand I am constantly amazed how many Thais accept their actions as being some sort of Buddhist fate that they have no responsibility for.

I disagree with your statement about N americans questioning authority, when exactly does this happen?

[IanForbes]

Thai children are taught that anything a superor says is the gospel truth. Unfortunately, what a superior says is not always the truth and there in lies the problem. By contrast, North Americans question all authority and that can also cause problems. There needs to be a balance.

I disagree with your statement about N americans questioning authority, when exactly does this happen?

Everything in California is about questioning the normal sheep way of thinking. They've questioned every war the USA was involved in... right or wrong. They were leaders in allowing gay rights. I see it in children of Canada as compared with children in Thailand. You see it with the law society which promotes NOT following the law. They PREFER controversy because it puts more money into their pockets. You see it in the so called "war on drugs" that actually PROMOTES the use of illegal drugs. You see in with cheeky teenagers in shopping malls. You see it with children misbehaving everywhere and parents not doing anything about it. That seldom happens in Thailand. Thai children are far more respectful of elders.

[carmine]

the age old "face loss" situation is the #1 obstacle which holds this country back. believe it.

That along with education and social acceptance of bribery and corruption.

Both these two posts are totally spot on.

Can i see any of this changing....sadly not. For all its great attributes, if some of thes others aspects of society would improve it would do so much good for the country.

[wasabi]

I agree Thai people use Face too much and do not value the blunt truth vs a softer more digestible lie but that does not mean face has no value. Actually I have succeeded in the corporate world by obeying the rules of saving face for my superiors. For example last night My boss and I did a server upgrade he made a few mistakes and the entire process nearly collapsed. We had asked the software vendor for instructions which we followed. They left out a minor detail which my boss should have known but instead of pointing this out I fully blamed the vendor. Basically they were the scapegoat for his short comings so he didn't have to feel bad about his mistake. No one was hurt in the process and his opinion of me grew stronger. Had I forced him to fess up I don't think he would have felt good about coming clean but more so that I was someone that may present him in a bad light.

No one likes to look bad, criticism and blunt truth should be reserved for the few who seek it out from you. The vast majority prefer a white lie over a black truth.

[canuckamuck]

My wife and I see this avoidance of responsibility thing with kids in Canada and in Thailand. Can't say for sure where it is worse.

We make sure our adopted 7 year old owns up to his deeds. He is pretty quick to say I did it; when he came here a year ago he would continually lie over the smallest thing. We also let him see that when he admits his mistake up front there is much less fuss. We are more concerned with lying than with simple misbehavior because it is a character thing.

However, In Canada I see that most people grow out of this habit (to a certain extent) whereas in Thailand I see the behavior become hardwired in. I think for the adults admitting a mistake or a failure is nearly impossible. You see it at every level.

Edited September 11, 2010 by canuckamuck

[gregchambers]

Well, for all its problems Thailand does seem to work okay, without the excessive and intrusive laws that our Western leaders deem necessary to justify their existence

[edwardandtubs]

A lot of westerners here use the word 'face' to describe these sorts of actions by Thais but I don't think it's the appropriate word. In Japan the concept of 'face' is used to promote harmony, make everyone feel good about themselves and prevent anyone feeling any embarrassment. What we commonly see from Thais I would call selfishness and an obsession with their own status.

To use the example given by the OP, a Japanese waitress would be quick to apologise for their bad use of English in using the word 'tomato'. To show good manners and prevent her loss of face it would be good to compliment her on her good English and maybe say something about your bad Japanese skills. That would never work in Thailand. The Thai concept of 'face' is completely the opposite. They seem to love seeing other people lose face, laughing at any small mistake anyone else makes but will go to ridiculous lengths to avoid their own loss of face.

[way2muchcoffee]

A lot of westerners here use the word 'face' to describe these sorts of actions by Thais but I don't think it's the appropriate word. In Japan the concept of 'face' is used to promote harmony, make everyone feel good about themselves and prevent anyone feeling any embarrassment. What we commonly see from Thais I would call selfishness and an obsession with their own status.

To use the example given by the OP, a Japanese waitress would be quick to apologise for their bad use of English in using the word 'tomato'. To show good manners and prevent her loss of face it would be good to compliment her on her good English and maybe say something about your bad Japanese skills. That would never work in Thailand. The Thai concept of 'face' is completely the opposite. They seem to love seeing other people lose face, laughing at any small mistake anyone else makes but will go to ridiculous lengths to avoid their own loss of face.

Hmmm. 'Lose face' is the correct word. That is how it is said in Thai. The Thai interpretation is what is meant when used here. The Japanese interpretation is proper for Japan. Nobody is right or wrong here.

[BillR]

There was an article, I think the bangkok post, written by a thai which compared the thai mentality to that of an ostrich. Standing tall when things are ok, running the other way, head in the sand when things go wrong.

[IanForbes]

This is an interesting discussion and one that everyone should think about before writing or saying anything. With all the negative crap I read it is quite obvious that there are many different points of view on this forum. If there wasn't then moderators would not be needed. One thing I learned at an early age was there are usually two ways to say or write anything. There is such a thing as constructive criticism that doesn't offend the other person. Children learn far more from constructive criticism than from just telling them what they did was wrong. Instruction can always be worded in a way that helps and inspires rather than curbing creativity and interest.

I believe that modern teachers in North America are FAR better than when I was going to school 60 years ago. In my 16 years of attending grade school and university I can only remember one teacher who ever inspired me to learn. If I learned anything it was on my own. I'm amazed that I got as far as I did. My own father was a terrible teacher for myself and my siblings. All he would do was give negative criticism and never gave praise for anything done correctly. By contrast, my mother was no better because she would give praise too easily and her praise was not valued. Being able to inspire people rather than destroy their self confidence is an art that only a few people have. I can't speak for Thailand because I don't know any Thai teachers.

[kenallday]

One post was removed for being excessively derogatory to Thais.

Is that possible? (joke)

Edited September 11, 2010 by kenallday

[Dakhar]

The soon to be x-wife:

Takes me to buy her a house 100K USD paid out on a 250K house

Purchase 80K BAHT matching silicone

6K USD on house furnishings

2 weeks latter, announces to me she has a boy friend

After I cut every financial tie that I could, she now proclaims "she is the victim." I don't know if she is nuts, or just poor up-brining. Honestly, I suspect both. But in order to prevent loss of face, the story is, she lied about the boy friend, and I guess was going to bible study all night rather than sleeping with her boy friend.

The sad truth is, in the US, and as well as here, if there is NO evidence, it never occured. She has been advised by lawyers to stick to this rule of thumb and she will walk away un-scathed. (which she preety much has)So there is NO concept of honor, no concept of right or wrong, and no justice

[edwardandtubs]

Look, I've been around Thais for many years...probably so have you, come to think of it. I've seen the "face" thing cause problems with even educated Thais who speak excellant English, and have grown up with and went to school with westerners (Farangs for want of a better word) from youth. The "face" thing is embedded in Asian (not just Thai) culture, and they are taught that from birth. You just have to learn to accept it...because if you really want to function in Thailand (or anywhere in Asia) you have to follow the local rules.

"Face" is not only cfor the person who makes the mistake, it also has a role in not embarresing other people. For example, I once heard a Thai who knew perfectly well the bus schedule, tell a westerner that, "Yes he could take a bus to XXXX and come back to Bangkok the evening on the last bus." I knew this was wrong, and I told the westerner so...he would have to spend a night in XXXX before being able to get a bus back to Bangkok. After he left I asked my Thai friend why he hadn't said this to the westerner. My Thai friend, who had grown up since childhood with Farangs and went to a school with Farangs said,"Yes, I knew that. But if I had told him that he was wrong about getting the bus back that same day, HE (meaning the Farang) would lose "face"; and I didn't want to cause him any embaressment". I guess all I'm trying to say is that the "face" thing is deeply embedded in Asian culture, so you have to learn to accept it. In western (farang) societies here are things you just don't speak about...(i.e. you may think your wife's sister is looking really sexy tonight, and she may know you do, but you don't let her know and she usually doesn't let you know she knows).... because it's not polite...but both you know and the other party knows the real truth. You learned those rules when young, they were drilled into you. They are just apart of the accepted "social contract" that guides your actions in society. You barely think about them now, they have been trained into you. There are certain things in Thailand, and Asia, that are the same. You have to learn to accept them even if you don't understand them.

And, by the way, not to be intentionally rude, but your comment about Buddhisim is so far off the mark, it would take me another whole post to even to begin to explain what is wrong with it. So let's just agree to not talk about that. (We'll all save "face" that way).

What you describe here is perhaps the typical Asian 'face' thing but the Thai 'face' thing is totally different. Probably your friend has been more influenced by Chinese culture than Thai culture. A typical Thai person worried about 'face' would be quick to flaunt his superior knowledge and wouldn't be at all worried about embarrassing the farang.

[MrRichard2009]

As someone pointed out people of lower socioeconomic classes tend to have more of this behavior it's not Thai people is the Thai people you hang out with ...... You're using a 7 year old child and a restaurant worker as examples. None of the people my wife and I hang out with or their children behave like that or have that attitude, sure children might behave that way until they are corrected. Seems like another post where the Farang is trying to mistakenly believe his child rearing skills\values are so much superior to the Thai peoples. Your trying to say that Thai people in general act like uneducated children, and that's not true, uneducated people act like uneducated people and that is not Thai specific as prior posts have pointed out. Most of the times I hear these types of posts I come to the same thought, another poster stuck in a low socioeconomic situation complaining and wondering why everyone else can't be as wonderful as they are.

"Thai's generally push the blame for their own misdeeds or failure to act onto someone else." ......... If you had Thai friends in even the middle income socioeconomic class you would know better than that.

"Or is it some Buddist issue where you can do what you like in this life as long as you understand you will be punished in the next one, so what the hel_l do as you please and become essentially totally self centred and selfish? ........ That statement indicates why you don't have more friends in a higher socioeconomic class.

The funny thing is the people you think don't exist in very high numbers are actually quite numerous, it's just that while you might be looking for them or to hang out with them they are probably looking to avoid yet another Farang who mistakenly thinks he has it all figured out as to the Thai's generally doing this or that, and is happy to say so, but in the next breath proves he hasn't a clue, all the while asserting he has all the solutions to fix the sad state of affairs in Thailand..........

And then in the next conversation complaining that since these silly people who need so much help were smarter than the people where he came from, and didn't get caught up in The housing bubble loans, that your currency value is sinking to fast. Yes these poor stupid people who need so much help manage just fine without your help to have a 9% growth rate, a rock hard and highly valued currency, and the SET is at all time highs, in one of the most uncertain times in history. And before you try and say how the wealth is so unevenly distributed and all that, you need to take a look at the indicator that measures that, it say's that the USA is more uneven than Thailand, so once again these poor stupid people manage to spread the wealth better than you and most people think ...... All without your help,......................... imagine that !

Now do you really wonder why the upper or upper middle classed people don't want to befriend you so much ? If you do I'll tell you why ....... Because your not up to their standards in the same way people who scoff responsibility are not up to yours.

Yes boo hoo one day my country is falling apart and my currency is devaluing and ..... What's wrong with these stupid people the next ! ........ Actions speak louder than words so next time you go to the bank be sure and remind yourself how much smarter you and the people where you come from are as compared to those poor saps giving you 30+- bht to the dollar. Or when you see the DOW down still 40% and the SET at all time highs be sure and start another conversation about how terrible the Thai's are at doing commerce and how much help they need from the west ! LOL ....... I could go on and on but I doubt you or anyone like you would learn anything ..... just argue and deny

[canuckamuck]

Believe it or not Mr Richard, the sub mid class is the vast majority of the people in Thailand. So what they do is what the majority of Thais do, but perhaps they are not real people to you.

What you are saying is those who can afford a real education (those who know the public system is skewed to create only working class robots) don't have an issue with the face thing. Well i am sure that is not true as well. Face is pride, and the bigger they are the more they fear that long fall down.

But the Hi so's have this advantage where if they make a faux pas, you can be quite sure none of the underlings noticed,or, alternatively they will begin to make excuses on behalf of Kuhn lofty. The offender can just continue like nothing happened.

[wintermute]

But the Hi so's have this advantage where if they make a faux pas, you can be quite sure none of the underlings noticed,or, alternatively they will begin to make excuses on behalf of Kuhn lofty. The offender can just continue like nothing happened.

This completely depends on the individual and the people around them. I've met more than a few wealthy hi-so people who mingle freely with their employees and speak candidly. Matter of fact it's not that unusual. The "big" people you are referring to are most likely the old pu yai big haired ladies who have the family power behind them. These people are usually only kowtowed by other family members.

The low paid salary people around them will only pay respect according to how much they are getting paid. If the big people overstep their bounds and treat them poorly they will and do quit in a heartbeat and the "pu yais" know this also.

There's an entire etiquette here you're not getting..it's not just a bunch of "big people" pushing everyone around without regard. They know their boundaries very well..

[MrRichard2009]

Believe it or not Mr Richard, the sub mid class is the vast majority of the people in Thailand. So what they do is what the majority of Thais do, but perhaps they are not real people to you.

What you are saying is those who can afford a real education (those who know the public system is skewed to create only working class robots) don't have an issue with the face thing. Well i am sure that is not true as well. Face is pride, and the bigger they are the more they fear that long fall down.

But the Hi so's have this advantage where if they make a faux pas, you can be quite sure none of the underlings noticed,or, alternatively they will begin to make excuses on behalf of Kuhn lofty. The offender can just continue like nothing happened.

As I tried to point out the dispersion of wealth being so much different in Thailand as opposed to other counties is just another myth ....... So the generality about Thai's would apply most everywhere UK and USA as well meaning it's people that are that way not Thai's in specific. Which was my point

The Op's post is about.... if saving of face is the reason.... not poverty or lack of education and since you find the same thing everywhere else it's not,.... from the poor to the bankers, and cig company's worldwide the same thing, and since this face thing is supposedly Thai specific the answer is that the saving of face issue is not the reason.

Not to mention that saving of face is really about not making a big deal out of a small deal so as to shame someone else .... not about not taking responsibility just to make yourself look worse as if that would save face.

[canuckamuck]

As I tried to point out the dispersion of wealth being so much different in Thailand as opposed to other counties is just another myth ....... So the generality about Thai's would apply most everywhere UK and USA as well meaning it's people that are that way not Thai's in specific. Which was my point

The Op's post is about.... if saving of face is the reason.... not poverty or lack of education and since you find the same thing everywhere else it's not,.... from the poor to the bankers, and cig company's worldwide the same thing, and since this face thing is supposedly Thai specific the answer is that the saving of face issue is not the reason.

Not to mention that saving of face is really about not making a big deal out of a small deal so as to shame someone else .... not about not taking responsibility just to make yourself look worse as if that would save face.

Your first two paragraphs are very hard to figure out, must be your hi so grammar with all those ellipsis.

So I can only comment on the third.

I think it is both, and human nature being what it is; the second impulse is the one that is certain while the first requires some charity.

Edited September 11, 2010 by canuckamuck

[MrRichard2009]

As I tried to point out the dispersion of wealth being so much different in Thailand as opposed to other counties is just another myth ....... So the generality about Thai's would apply most everywhere UK and USA as well meaning it's people that are that way not Thai's in specific. Which was my point

The Op's post is about.... if saving of face is the reason.... not poverty or lack of education and since you find the same thing everywhere else it's not,.... from the poor to the bankers, and cig company's worldwide the same thing, and since this face thing is supposedly Thai specific the answer is that the saving of face issue is not the reason.

Not to mention that saving of face is really about not making a big deal out of a small deal so as to shame someone else .... not about not taking responsibility just to make yourself look worse as if that would save face.

Your first two paragraphs are very hard to figure out, must be your hi so grammar with all those ellipsis.

So I can only comment on the third.

I think it is both, and human nature being what it is; the second impulse is the one that is certain while the first requires some charity.

Pretty common to complain about grammar and spelling when net folks feel they have lost some argument.

[canuckamuck]

As I tried to point out the dispersion of wealth being so much different in Thailand as opposed to other counties is just another myth ....... So the generality about Thai's would apply most everywhere UK and USA as well meaning it's people that are that way not Thai's in specific. Which was my point

The Op's post is about.... if saving of face is the reason.... not poverty or lack of education and since you find the same thing everywhere else it's not,.... from the poor to the bankers, and cig company's worldwide the same thing, and since this face thing is supposedly Thai specific the answer is that the saving of face issue is not the reason.

Not to mention that saving of face is really about not making a big deal out of a small deal so as to shame someone else .... not about not taking responsibility just to make yourself look worse as if that would save face.

Your first two paragraphs are very hard to figure out, must be your hi so grammar with all those ellipsis.

So I can only comment on the third.

I think it is both, and human nature being what it is; the second impulse is the one that is certain while the first requires some charity.

Pretty common to complain about grammar and spelling when net folks feel they have lost some argument.

lol, go ask a few other people what those two paragraphs are on about. Only thing I lost was the translation.

[Kwasaki]

Picked up on your last bit mentioning about culture and it rests there.

A Thai person would understand your kids.

Go with the flow buddy you have a good son but just give the younger one a break from who you see as Mr goody goody.

[BlackGrape]

Guys, I work in Korea and it's exactly the same thing. Just let them do it:)

[travelmann]

Face doesnt seem to have held the Japanese back.