How Important Are Deep Sitting Sessions Vs Exclusive Daily Mindfulness.

[rockyysdt]

Although very much a part of the path, over time, it seems Forum members are generally advocating daily wakeful mindfulness as the most important aspect of practice and suggest Sitting is not important.

Coming from a background where the only practice I knew was silent Sitting, I've now been exposed to the Vipassana practice of Mindfulness or constant awareness during my wakeful day as the way.

I very much value Mindfulness and have incorporated it into daily life during periods when I'm aware.

I must say though, that to me Sitting takes equal billing and the personal experience I gain from it assists me to improve my daily mindfulness.

My sitting practice includes global body relaxation. I let go of any tension in my body and feel the deep relaxation as well as focus on the passage of the breathe, in & out.

For me mindfulness with deep relaxation can carry this state for extended periods into each day.

My constant mind chatter also reduces when feeling relaxed which then also reduces the incidence of acting upon unwanted thoughts during the non mindful periods of the day.

There are many health benefits which result from regular sitting in a deeply relaxed state.

• Improved sleep:
• Reduced stress levels:
• decreased stress hormone levels leads to:
• lower blood pressure
• reduced heart rate
• reduced breathing rate
• increased immunity as there is an increase in T cell production
• better digestion
• health in general improves
• complexion and skin conditions improve (as many are related to stress)
• decreased muscle tension
• muscle spasms
• muscle fatigue
• Reduced anxiety:
• increased sense of control over moods
• increased self-esteem
• increased spontaneity and creativity
• calm emotional state and more emotional control
• feeling of peace, satisfaction and inner balance
• dissolving life limitations
• frees us by clearing our life of blockages which cause problems in careers, relationships, etc - usually created from childhood trauma or other events from the past
• increased confidence and self esteem
• improved energy levels
• sharpens mental skills and greater clarity of thought
• improved concentration and memory
• unpleasant people are more easily tolerated (and you are more tolerable to others because you more relaxed!)
• creativity is enhanced (not just for artists - all our lives are improved when we are more creative at problem-solving)
• o life is more fun, and attitude is better and more positive
• o weight control, quitting smoking, and the control of other habits becomes easier
• o increases your body's healing rate
• o produces more brain chemicals related to health and longevity
• o accelerated goal achievement - in personal and business life
• o greater feelings of general well-being
• o accelerated learning and life balance
• o increases your ability to make correct decision.

My personal view is that living in a body which reaps these benefits will allow one to better navigate along the path which the Buddha taught.

Following from this I believe that ones daily Mindfulness will be far more successful practicing in a body which operates at its optimum.

Isn't daily Mindfulness without Sitting radically greatly hindered?

Isn't it very easy to fall from the path without the benefits derived from deep Sitting practice?

I find it very easy to lose concentration and come up with excuses not to practice.

I also have poor concentration in terms of the amount of mindfulness required to fill a day.

After regular Sitting practice my concentration is very much elevated.

Edited October 10, 2010 by rockyysdt

[dutchguest]

An old schoolteacher of me had a standard saying when practicing German language words: "we keep on practicing until it goes spontaneously".The same goes i.m.o. for meditation techniques: they are a means to a goal. If you have a very busy life with not much time for yourself it can be helpful to structure your activities and make time for meditation.

The paradox is that meditativeness is our natural, spontaneous attitude, state of mind, but in daily life it is often overshadowed by all kinds of clouds. So sometimes we have to make conscious efforts to get rid of the clouds.

If I read your list of positive effects of meditation it looks like a wondermiddle for all diseases, but I have to agree that it actually is working in a positive way on all stressrelated, psycho-somatic complaints.

[sabaijai]

I don't think it's necessary or helpful to cling to one view or another on this. Sitting has all kinds of benefits, as you noted. If you enjoy sitting, and find it beneficial, why not enjoy it, mindfully? I still sit regularly for the very reasons you stated. Last night I spent an hour sitting at a temple while the monks chanted the evening verses. Very calming. I try to do one multi-day intensive per year. It's the teachings I go for, not the sitting. The teachings scratch up the conditions for sati. One phrase from a good teacher can set the wheels in motion.

Isn't daily Mindfulness without Sitting radically greatly hindered?

I don't think it's logical or consonant with the teachings to conclude that 'mindfulness without sitting' is a 'great hindrance,' or, in fact, a hindrance of any kind.

I would put it another way: Being attached to any one posture is a hindrance.

As the Satipatthana Sutta clearly describes, mindfulness of mind and body can a be practised in all postures, and awareness (sati) can arise in all postures.

The number of times the word 'sitting' occurs in the most widely accepted English translation of the sutta is 3 (3 words out of 4,844).

Here is one of the three appearances of the word in the Great Mindfulness Sutta:

[3] "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert.

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html

My personal experience is that sati arises only rarely while sitting. Most people I know who have practised longterm report similar experiences. In other words, the conditions for the arising of sati seem to manifest more commonly during activity. My teachers report the same thing, that during long retreats of 10 days to three months, most of their students experience sati while engaged in some activity other than sitting, even though they spend many hours sitting. They say that once sati has been reasonably cultivated, long retreats or long sittings won't necessarily take you any further along the path. But that's no reason not to sit.

Of course your mileage may vary. (Even) If sati arises for you while sitting, sati teaches you that it is not in any way bound to sitting.

I've put in thousands of sitting hours, both during intensive retreats and independently, and that's what I've learned. Apprehension of the dhammas is what creates conditions for sati, not sitting (or standing or lying, etc).

What's most important is not whether you are sitting or not sitting, but what you are doing while sitting (or lying, etc). There are a lot of options, but only a relative few bear path fruit. If you're seeing dhamma and experiencing sati while sitting, stay with it.

"Attainment does not come at the moment when we are making a conscious effort to attain, because at that time we have uddhacca-kukkucca, 'distraction and worry', but rather at the unexpected moment when we relax after an apparently fruitless effort."

--Ven. Ñanavira

[fabianfred]

The formal asessions of sitting and walking are great....but they are just practicing us in mindfulness....in order to bring it into our daily life.

Just doing an hour or two a day and being unmindful the rest of the time is not going to get one to escape velocity.

Edited October 10, 2010 by fabianfred

[rockyysdt]

The formal asessions of sitting and walking are great....but they are just practicing us in mindfulness....in order to bring it into our daily life.

Just doing an hour or two a day and being unmindful the rest of the time is not going to get one to escape velocity.

I think we're in agreement Fred.

Mindfulness is the way, however the practice of Mindfulness in sitting and walking assists many with their Mindfulness.

We are all different and respond in different ways.

I suspect some may benefit from sitting more than others in order to overcome road blocks on the path.

[rockyysdt]

I don't think it's necessary or helpful to cling to one view or another on this. Sitting has all kinds of benefits, as you noted. If you enjoy sitting, and find it beneficial, why not enjoy it, mindfully? I still sit regularly for the very reasons you stated. Last night I spent an hour sitting at a temple while the monks chanted the evening verses. Very calming. I try to do one multi-day intensive per year. It's the teachings I go for, not the sitting. The teachings scratch up the conditions for sati. One phrase from a good teacher can set the wheels in motion.

I don't think it's logical or consonant with the teachings to conclude that 'mindfulness without sitting' is a 'great hindrance,' or, in fact, a hindrance of any kind. I would put it another way: Being attached to any one posture is a hindrance.

I agree SJ.

I neither cling to sitting nor mindfulness but embrace both.

I have adopted three postures for silent sitting in order to avoid attachment to any one position, but use sitting as a springboard to more sustained mindfulness.

I look for the benefits listed earlier to consolidate my day and improve my poise and concentration.

I thought each element of the eight fold path has its part to play.

The teachings form our "right view" whilst the sitting improves "right concentration" which facilitates quality mindfulness or "right mindfulness".

Aren't they all part of the total package?

As the Satipatthana Sutta clearly describes, mindfulness of mind and body can a be practised in all postures, and awareness (sati) can arise in all postures.

The number of times the word 'sitting' occurs in the most widely accepted English translation of the sutta is 3 (3 words out of 4,844).

Here is one of the three appearances of the word in the Great Mindfulness Sutta:

[3] "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert.

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

http://www.accesstoi....22.0.than.html

This quote, describing a followers mindfulness in daily life appears to support daily sitting of an hour or two which is equivalent to about 8% of the wakeful day.

I think retreats in which long practice can bring about a certain depth of practice are the exception, but normally daily sitting of an hour or two (remain silent) is enough to aid me for the day.

My personal experience is that sati arises only rarely while sitting. Most people I know who have practised long term report similar experiences. In other words, the conditions for the arising of sati seem to manifest more commonly during activity. My teachers report the same thing, that during long retreats of 10 days to three months, most of their students experience sati while engaged in some activity other than sitting, even though they spend many hours sitting. They say that once sati has been reasonably cultivated, long retreats or long sittings won't necessarily take you any further along the path. But that's no reason not to sit.

Of course your mileage may vary. (Even) If sati arises for you while sitting, sati teaches you that it is not in any way bound to sitting.

I've put in thousands of sitting hours, both during intensive retreats and independently, and that's what I've learned. Apprehension of the dhammas is what creates conditions for sati, not sitting (or standing or lying, etc).

What's most important is not whether you are sitting or not sitting, but what you are doing while sitting (or lying, etc). There are a lot of options, but only a relative few bear path fruit. If you're seeing dhamma and experiencing sati while sitting, stay with it.

"Attainment does not come at the moment when we are making a conscious effort to attain, because at that time we have uddhacca-kukkucca, 'distraction and worry', but rather at the unexpected moment when we relax after an apparently fruitless effort."

--Ven. Ñanavira

Although sati may often come during states outside of sitting, isn't the sitting only one part of a number of practices which help place the traveler in such a position?

Is it possible that we are all different and require different levels of sitting to compliment our daily mindfulness?

I'm learning that each of us carries unique afflictions or conditioning requiring varied action to overcome.

Even as a follower of Dhamma, I find my concentration is far weaker in comparison to some work colleagues who don't practice our path. I also experience high anxiety which can further impact on concentration.

For me the clarity experienced from sitting assists me considerably.

Opposed to this I know of others who travel through life free of anxiety and with no comprehension (self experience) and who can readily progress which with a good level of concentration.

Naturally when sati arises, our aides can be discarded.

Is there convergence in our views?

Edited October 10, 2010 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

Is it possible that we are all different and require different levels of sitting to compliment our daily mindfulness?

Yes, that's what I meant by 'your mileage may vary.'

As is clearly stated in the suttanta, sati may arise in any posture. The suggestion that 'mindfulness without sitting' (or 'deep sitting,' whatever that is ) is a hindrance is not supported in the teachings.

This quote, describing a followers mindfulness in daily life appears to support daily sitting of an hour or two which is equivalent to about 8% of the wakeful day.

Yes but that quote is an excerpt. As part of the entire Maha-satipatthana Sutta the percentage is more like 0.00075 percent. I wouldn't take that as a prescription for how much time to spend sitting either. The point of the quote was, "practice satipatthana, in which ever posture you're in."

As fabianfred says, if you separate sitting as a special activity that's separate from all other activities, you're missing many opportunities to practise mindfulness throughout the day. If it's all part of one package, great. If you like the side benefits from sitting, also great.

Otherwise, convergence.

[rockyysdt]

The suggestion that 'mindfulness without sitting' (or 'deep sitting,' whatever that is ) is a hindrance is not supported in the teachings.

My sitting involves concentration of the breathe with cycles of random thought breaking the concentration.

I find the longer I can concentrate on breathe with shorter and less cycles of random thought can bring about a feeling which is very difficult to explain other than to say it feels profound.

When one becomes mindful of this the feeling disappears with another cycle of thoughts.

I refer to this as the depth of meditation I'm able to cultivate.

Naturally I don't chase this state and am mindful not to become attached to it, but reap its reward when it comes.

Is it also safe to say that 'mindfulness with sitting is a hindrance" is also not directly supported in the teachings?

Edited October 11, 2010 by rockyysdt