Honda Cbr 250R 2011

[appropriate]

BTW, I'm planning on keeping it for about 3 years before moving up to Ninja650.

Should get plenty of klicks and kicks done before then. And also get my experience up. Feel it will be great for the odd bi-monthly road trip of a few hundred klicks in day, no bother at all. Which is one of the reasons I bought it.

Sure I could have bought a bigger/faster bike (CB400 for example) but the easiness of everyday driving is and commuting is an issue for me, and this thing really is as light as a feather.

[loserlazer]

Ok, so the monkeys at honda told me latest this morning- 100k- flat- only for me to pop down there to pick up the bike- then they wanted 4k extra... I told them to stuff that- i was off on a day trip so no time to argue... I will be back in the morning with the mayor... He will set them straight... It was ready for me, paperwork done and sent off... How will they fix this? Will update tomorrow...

You walked over 4000 Baht?! You want the bike or not?!

Looking at the ThaiVisa crowd I'd divide the prospective CBR 250 buyers into two groups.

First are posers and wannabes who want to ride a bike that LOOKS fast, even though they don't actually have the skills to go fast. Many of them can't afford anything bigger or faster than the CBR 250 and even if they did buy bigger / faster bikes they wouldn't know how to ride them. I guess it's pretty obvious I don't have much respect for those guys...

Second group are the older guys (many (not all) with limited funds) who are looking for a cheap small easy-to-ride bike that they will mainly use for short trips around town and the occasional day trip and don't want or need anything big or fast. I think for that purpose the CBR 250 will be well suited. (Though a Boxer 250RS would probably be an even better all-purpose city bike...) Personally I've enjoyed amazing after sales service on my Tiger Retro, but I think the lack of Tiger dealers and service points continue to hurt Tiger sales overall.

Problem with faired bikes like the CB"R" 250 and Ninjette, especially if you park them in amongst all the scooters, is that invariably the fairings will get scratched up. That's why I prefer a naked bike for city use. And besides, fairings on a 250 are mostly for show- it's rare that you go fast enough on a 250 to actually need or benefit from fairings...

Ride On!

Tony

I do not know why are you so twisted regarding new cbr 250 and the people like it?

You must be a super rich guy then who can differentiate and judge people on their budget and principals. So what the hell you are riding in Thailand instead of Monte Carlo?

I rode lots of big bikes as well but the essence and culture in Thailand is not suitable for me to ride a cbr 600 again on top of my needs.

Besides, you forgot to add the third group:

It is well known in psychology that guys with small d..s prefer big, fast, loud bikes or cars to compensate their broken egos.

You have to be a member of the third group then.

Edited December 22, 2010 by loserlazer

[Martiny]

Ok, a couple of weeks back the Honda showroom in CMX had a couple of brand new Honda Steed's. 400cc, Kind of like a Phantom on steroids. But they only lasted a couple of days and then were gone.

Yah - I saw some big banners advertising them. 159,000+

Not new at all! They are factory refurbished with tens of thousands of kilometers on them...

(And kind of an unpleasant bike I thought when I did a visa run on one)

A knowledgeable Thai big bike enthusiast told me that the Steed's where factory refurbished with squeaky clean books. Guess it's not a rumor.

Would anybody know if that includes; full frame checks, proper suspension refurbishing, rewiring of electrics and complete engine rebuilds? If it's a proper fully rebuilt Steed than the price is acceptable.

Wouldn't it be fair in any market to call both CBR's commuter bikes? I know several gals that learned to ride on 400cc, and 250cc, two stroke MX bikes and my missus first rode on the road on a 883 sportster.

And I try not to think about the fact that, so far, two kids education costs could almost buy me a Multstrada and a S1000RR at Thai prices. Now with one more to go the price of the new CBR's is sweet for a basic commuter, sometime touring, bike.

FYI... Those Steeds came from Japan and have a minimum of 18 000km on them. As far as refurbished, I don't think that I'd be as extensive as you want for that price and speaking of price, the poster says 159000, but the tag on the handlebars says 164000 + 6000 for registration...

[Martiny]

Ok, so the monkeys at honda told me latest this morning- 100k- flat- only for me to pop down there to pick up the bike- then they wanted 4k extra... I told them to stuff that- i was off on a day trip so no time to argue... I will be back in the morning with the mayor... He will set them straight... It was ready for me, paperwork done and sent off... How will they fix this? Will update tomorrow...

You walked over 4000 Baht?! You want the bike or not?!

Looking at the ThaiVisa crowd I'd divide the prospective CBR 250 buyers into two groups.

First are posers and wannabes who want to ride a bike that LOOKS fast, even though they don't actually have the skills to go fast. Many of them can't afford anything bigger or faster than the CBR 250 and even if they did buy bigger / faster bikes they wouldn't know how to ride them. I guess it's pretty obvious I don't have much respect for those guys...

Second group are the older guys (many (not all) with limited funds) who are looking for a cheap small easy-to-ride bike that they will mainly use for short trips around town and the occasional day trip and don't want or need anything big or fast. I think for that purpose the CBR 250 will be well suited. (Though a Boxer 250RS would probably be an even better all-purpose city bike...) Personally I've enjoyed amazing after sales service on my Tiger Retro, but I think the lack of Tiger dealers and service points continue to hurt Tiger sales overall.

Problem with faired bikes like the CB"R" 250 and Ninjette, especially if you park them in amongst all the scooters, is that invariably the fairings will get scratched up. That's why I prefer a naked bike for city use. And besides, fairings on a 250 are mostly for show- it's rare that you go fast enough on a 250 to actually need or benefit from fairings...

Ride On!

Tony

I do not know why are you so twisted regarding new cbr 250 and the people like it?

You must be a super rich guy then who can differentiate and judge people on their budget and principals. So what the hell you are riding in Thailand instead of Monte Carlo?

I rode lots of big bikes as well but the essence and culture in Thailand is not suitable for me to ride a cbr 600 again on top of my needs.

Besides, you forgot to add the third group:

It is well known in psychology that guys with small d..s prefer big, fast, loud bikes or cars to compensate their broken egos.

You have to be a member of the third group then.

Thanks for somewhat putting that i@*#t in his place...

As far as I'm concern if a motorcycle suits and satisfies his owner, that's all that really matters. You buy what you can afford and what you need... and in Thailand no one really needs a liter + motorcycle. Its just asking for trouble. For now the CBR 250 suits my needs, I drive 30min to and from school everyday, in city, highway and small town traffic... the CBR150 is perfect for the task, but the 250 will allow me to have a little more fun and will be more than comfortable for a run to Pai or Mae Hong Song. The roads in Nan will be that much more fun, heck I enjoy them on a Wave 100 so...

So for mister big shot, if your big bikes help you pick up the average lady boy, good on you... I'll stick with my girlfriend and the CBR250.

Cheers!

[BigBikeBKK]

Looking at the ThaiVisa crowd I'd divide the prospective CBR 250 buyers into two groups.

First are posers and wannabes who want to ride a bike that LOOKS fast, even though they don't actually have the skills to go fast. Many of them can't afford anything bigger or faster than the CBR 250 and even if they did buy bigger / faster bikes they wouldn't know how to ride them. I guess it's pretty obvious I don't have much respect for those guys...

Second group are the older guys (many (not all) with limited funds) who are looking for a cheap small easy-to-ride bike that they will mainly use for short trips around town and the occasional day trip and don't want or need anything big or fast.

Tony

Oh... Tony.........

Care to go public with the list?

Gents,

I knew the second I hit "Add reply" that I'd cause a bit of controversy with those comments, but I also think that some of you are taking my comments out of context.

I began with the caveat: "Looking at the ThaiVisa crowd I'd divide the prospective CBR 250 buyers into two groups."

The ThaiVisa crowd is NOT the demographic that these new CBRs are aimed at. (Well, maybe the first group (posers), but certainly not the second).

Sales of these CBRs to ThaiVisa members will perhaps add up to 1/10th or 1% of sales country-wide. The majority of the CBR buyers in Thailand will be young Thai males under 30. And while you think I'm dissing the bike I'm not- I expect it to sell very very well.

I just take exception with some of the keyboard warriors who think this new CBR 250 is the best thing since sliced bread. Compared to the original 45 Hp, 4-pot, 19000 RPM CBR 250 RR screamer:

Putting a CBR sticker on this new ~20Hp thumper is a bit silly IMO. There was a hope and expectation among bike enthusiasts that Honda would raise the bar with their new CBR 250, or at least try to make something as exciting as the original CBR 250RR. The only thing I find exciting about the new CBR is the option of ABS on a 250cc bike. Other than that it's a dud compared to the original CBR 250RR.

But as with Kawasaki and their unfortunate misuse of the "Ninja" logo on EX model bikes which really ought to be reserved for ZX model bikes, I guess Honda has also let marketing take precedence over accuracy and is willing to spread the CBR name around rather liberally.

But let's forget Thailand for a sec with it's limited choice of small bikes and ridiculous mark-ups on large cc imports. In the rest of the world these new CBRs are aimed squarely at young new riders and girls. The little Ninjette 250 has been a perennial best seller for Kawasaki because it's CHEAP and very easy to ride. It's a favorite learners bike in many countries. MSRP for the CBR 250 in the US is IDENTICAL to the Ninja 250R: $3999

So, price being EQUAL, how to differentiate the two?

IMO the CBR 250 will be an even easier bike for beginners than the Ninja 250R thanks to the torque of it's single cylinder engine. As I've said a number of times, offering ABS on a 250cc bike is REVOLUTIONARY and Honda is to be congratulated and commended to bringing this life saving technology to small bikes at an affordable price.

But what makes it a good beginners bike may also be a handicap. New riders may soon outgrow the little CBR thumper and crave a bike with more power. Also, like the Ninjette, but even more, so the new CBR 250 will be woefully underpowered for riding two up. I did a bit of touring two up with my old Ninjette and with a 45Kg passenger the bike was a dog. Adding (or cutting) weight from small displacement motorcycles makes a BIG difference in power to weight ratios.

At the end of the day it does not matter one bit what you ride as long as you are having FUN!

If a Honda Phantom or Kawasaki Boss puts a smile on your face then more power to you!

The new CBR 250 looks great, is very cheap and no doubt will be of typical excellent Honda build quality.

Heartfelt congratulations to those of you who have bought or are buying one!

Happy Trails!

Tony

Edited December 22, 2010 by BigBikeBKK

[Tiffer]

The shiny new red 250 gets its first major outing on Friday.

Bangkok / Nakhon Nayok / Khao Yai should be a good all round test

Will post a "500k seat of the pants comfort report" later

[Martiny]

Looking at the ThaiVisa crowd I'd divide the prospective CBR 250 buyers into two groups.

First are posers and wannabes who want to ride a bike that LOOKS fast, even though they don't actually have the skills to go fast. Many of them can't afford anything bigger or faster than the CBR 250 and even if they did buy bigger / faster bikes they wouldn't know how to ride them. I guess it's pretty obvious I don't have much respect for those guys...

Second group are the older guys (many (not all) with limited funds) who are looking for a cheap small easy-to-ride bike that they will mainly use for short trips around town and the occasional day trip and don't want or need anything big or fast.

Tony

Oh... Tony.........

Care to go public with the list?

Gents,

I knew the second I hit "Add reply" that I'd cause a bit of controversy with those comments, but I also think that some of you are taking my comments out of context.

I began with the caveat: "Looking at the ThaiVisa crowd I'd divide the prospective CBR 250 buyers into two groups."

The ThaiVisa crowd is NOT the demographic that these new CBRs are aimed at. (Well, maybe the first group (posers), but certainly not the second).

Sales of these CBRs to ThaiVisa members will perhaps add up to 1/10th or 1% of sales country-wide. The majority of the CBR buyers in Thailand will be young Thai males under 30. And while you think I'm dissing the bike I'm not- I expect it to sell very very well. I just take exception with

But let's forget Thailand for a sec with it's limited choice of small bikes and ridiculous mark-ups on large cc imports. In the rest of the world these new CBRs are aimed squarely at young new riders and girls. The little Ninjette 250 has been a perennial best seller for Kawasaki because it's CHEAP and very easy to ride. It's a favorite learners bike in many countries. MSRP for the CBR 250 in the US is IDENTICAL to the Ninja 250R: $3999

So, price being EQUAL, how to differentiate the two?

IMO the CBR 250 will be an even easier bike for beginners than the Ninja 250R thanks to the torque of it's single cylinder engine. As I've said a number of times, offering ABS on a 250cc bike is REVOLUTIONARY and Honda is to be congratulated and commended to bringing this life saving technology to small bikes at an affordable price.

But what makes it a good beginners bike may also be a handicap. New riders may soon outgrow the little CBR thumper and crave a bike with more power. Also, like the Ninjette, but even more, so the new CBR 250 will be woefully underpowered for riding two up. I did a bit of touring two up with my old Ninjette and with a passenger and with the added weight of a 45Kg passenger the bike was a dog. Adding (or cutting) weight from small displacement motorcycles makes a BIG difference in power to weight ratios.

At the end of the day it does not matter one bit what you ride as long as you are having FUN!

If a Honda Phantom or Kawasaki Boss puts a smile on your face then more power to you!

The new CBR 250 looks great, is very cheap and no doubt will be of typical excellent Honda build quality.

Heartfelt congratulations to those of you who have bought or are buying one!

Happy Trails!

Tony

Thanks, I appreciate this one much better and sorry about the "lady boy" bit...

[Fishenough]

So for mister big shot, if your big bikes help you pick up the average lady boy, good on you... I'll stick with my girlfriend and the CBR250.

Cheers!

First good chuckle out of a long thread.

Are you feeling a little bah humbug lately Tony?

Some of us don't fit the Thai Visa stereotype me guesses, and have had fast bikes in the past. Now we just want to get out and ride for year after year until we are very old - and cranky, real old, Thai visa posters.

[Just1Voice]

So for mister big shot, if your big bikes help you pick up the average lady boy, good on you... I'll stick with my girlfriend and the CBR250.

Cheers!

First good chuckle out of a long thread.

Are you feeling a little bah humbug lately Tony?

Some of us don't fit the Thai Visa stereotype me guesses, and have had fast bikes in the past. Now we just want to get out and ride for year after year until we are very old - and cranky, real old, Thai visa posters.

HEY!, I resemble that remark! Well, maybe not the "cranky" part. At least not yet anyway. lol

I have a feeling, and this is just my opinion, that given a couple of more years, with improvements, the CBR 250 just MIGHT be a Ninja beater. Or maybe not. Right now, all things considered, I'm having a blast on my tri-color 150. Do I regret not waiting for the 250? Nah, not really. Seeing as how I hardly ever keep a bike more than 2 years, and depending on what changes Honda makes to the 250, I'll probably move up to that. My days of living for the next adrenalin rush and flirting with Lord Death have pretty much been tempered the past couple of years.

:jap:

[snowflake]

Guess i am in group one... My bikes has to look fast... But i guess i will be bored with the cbr in about 6 months and then the real craving will begin... I hope not- but i do know myself... But lets face it- as long as you are happy, why not... I was on my bike today... Tomorrow i will take it for a 300k run... Wish me luck!

[snowflake]

Well, let me clear something up- i was on a school day trip- i wanted to pick the bike up so i could ride it in the evening- now i cant- i did not have the 4000b extra on me... I dont care about the money- but that they did not tell me when i came in the morning- just when i was supposed to pick it up... I want the bike- i will have it before 9am... Yes, my willy is small but my girl paid for the bike so i must do something right..

[appropriate]

After 60 odd km today I got mine down to Dusit/Ratchdamneon tonight to open it up. the square around Dusit palace is simply made for 1/2 mile racing. Traffic lights that go green onto a dead straight empty perfectly paved empty 3-4 lanes.

1st and 2nd are nice but when you get into 3rd and 4th it really just takes off. Was doing 130kph in 5th (probably just touching the redline) before going into 6th running out of road.

And talk about attention, I really don't like it, it makes me feel like a pillock. At the lights everyone is looking and talking about it, then look down a soi and 5 men are stopped pointing and discussing it. Stopped for a smoke outside a 7 and feel like a bit of an awkward cock. It's a dream to drive though. Smooth as anything. Engine seems perfectly balanced.

Besides the back brake, which I need to get checked tmro, Going from neutral to first is very tough and clicky, sometimes it might take 3 or 4 pushes to get into first. I'll have it checked tmro, but has anybody else noticed this? Or is this not that unusual with a brand new engine?

Anyway, for the entire package, at the price it is, for Thailand, it is simply great value IMO. A great 110k spent, and I couldn't give a crap about resale prices, % of this value and that value, etc etc etc.

Cheers chaps.

[appropriate]

btw, should I look at changing the oil now, at about 100km, or just wait until the 1000km service?

I'd reckon about 100km, 500km and again at 1000km??

[JUDAS]

btw, should I look at changing the oil now, at about 100km, or just wait until the 1000km service?

I'd reckon about 100km, 500km and again at 1000km??

Doing a hard break in I would also change at about those numbers too. BTW my old model cbr150 will pull 130kph in 5th, you sure you were redlining?

[bobbin]

[quote name='BigBikeBKK' timestamp='1293025119' post='4103887'

The majority of the CBR buyers in Thailand will be young Thai males under 30. And while you think I'm dissing the bike I'm not- I expect it to sell very very well.

I just take exception with some of the keyboard warriors who think this new CBR 250 is the best thing since sliced bread. The only thing I find exciting about the new CBR is the option of ABS on a 250cc bike.

MSRP for the CBR 250 in the US is IDENTICAL to the Ninja 250R: $3999

As I've said a number of times, offering ABS on a 250cc bike is REVOLUTIONARY and Honda is to be congratulated and commended to bringing this life saving technology to small bikes at an affordable price.

But what makes it a good beginners bike may also be a handicap. New riders may soon outgrow the little CBR thumper and crave a bike with more power. Also, like the Ninjette, but even more, so the new CBR 250 will be woefully underpowered for riding two up. I did a bit of touring two up with my old Ninjette and with a 45Kg passenger the bike was a dog. Adding (or cutting) weight from small displacement motorcycles makes a BIG difference in power to weight ratios.

If a Honda Phantom or Kawasaki Boss puts a smile on your face then more power to you!

The new CBR 250 looks great, is very cheap and no doubt will be of typical excellent Honda build quality.

Heartfelt congratulations to those of you who have bought or are buying one!

Happy Trails!

Tony

Tony, I quoted the points I want to address.

You are absolutely right about the demographics of the Thai purchasers, but that was easy. There won't be many Thai girls buying them.

Some here went "keyboard warrior" in response to unwarranted and unwanted criticism of the Honda. I'm not backwards in coming forward so I and others took on the party-poopers. After all, this thread is for the CBR 250R (no quotes please!), not other brands. It's no different than going where supporters of any team, sports etc. are gathered and talking crap just to rile up the natives. You reap what you sew.

As for the "irrational exuberance", well think of us as part-Thai. Some of us have been here long enough to get very excited by this new Thai offering. Available cheaply, sold/serviced everywhere with a good warranty.

As for the price....well I said I would give it up but please allow one last comment. At least one of the American reviews quoted the price of the Ninja 250 as msrp $4299-$4499 according to color choice. With a 1 year warranty. Extra years to be purchased.

In America, Honda's msrp is $3999. Both of these bikes would add tax to those prices I assume.

But here in Thailand, Honda is offering the bike at approximately $3300. Tax included. 3 year warranty. So we are making out like bandits here as far as a good deal goes.

I would say that might be because they are made here. But the Ninja is also made here. And instead of cutting Thai (and us) consumers a break, they up the price in Thailand to almost $5000.

As for trading up, many of us are older than you and have "been there, done that". A lighter rider like myself at 66 kg has a significant advantage over a larger rider, therefore postponing or negating our need for more. More cc's, more hp, more torque.

As the Buddha says, "If you desire control, you must control desire".

However Tony, there is one area where you could add good input to our discussion.

At least one of your bikes had Kawasaki's version of ABS. One of the first reviews on Richard's (Where is he? Doesn't he want to explain how he got it so wrong?) site said the new-gen ABS would change the way we ride. Braking on corners,later braking etc. But none of the reviews so far really cover that, only saying it's available and good.

What are your thoughts on ABS? Will we lose good braking skills after relying on ABS equipment for extended periods? Like owning ABS-equipped bike for 2-3 years then going to non-ABS( If there are any by then). Buy ABS now because it's that good or get it as standard equipment in 2-3 years on the next bike? Keeping in mind o cash-advantaged one that it's Bt.15,000/$500 more.

bobbin

(not too proud to reach out )

[LivinLOS]

I think those power numbers must be in kilowatts. that would give the CBR 28.7HP and the Ninja 34.9HP which is closer to the factory numbers.

Factory numbers are at the crank not the rear wheel.. So those look about right.

Highly unlikely to be putting out more than the specs says.

[spot]

BTW my old model cbr150 will pull 130kph in 5th, you sure you were redlining?

Not really no.

Was probably closer to the point you'd change into 6th than pushing it in 5th. Would guess at about 140+ in 5th when pushed into the red.

My old 150 would do about the same, 125-130 in 5th, then flop a bit when into 6th. (these were of course about 10% positive than the actual speed, dunno if the new 150/250s are).

The feeling and difference in redlining 5th on the old 150 and the new 250 are worlds apart.

THIS IS APPROPRIATE, NOT 'SPOT'. Why/How on Earth am I suddenly logged in as someone else??

Edited December 22, 2010 by spot

[spot]

Why on Earth has my name changed to Spot?

[JUDAS]

BTW my old model cbr150 will pull 130kph in 5th, you sure you were redlining?

Not really no.

Was probably closer to the point you'd change into 6th than pushing it in 5th. Would guess at about 140+ in 5th when pushed into the red.

My old 150 would do about the same, 125-130 in 5th, then flop a bit when into 6th. (these were of course about 10% positive than the actual speed, dunno if the new 150/250s are).

The feeling and difference in redlining 5th on the old 150 and the new 250 are worlds apart.

THIS IS APPROPRIATE, NOT 'SPOT'. Why/How on Earth am I suddenly logged in as someone else??

Yeah, I started reading and thought you'd changed your nick again!

[dave_boo]

Gents,

I knew the second I hit "Add reply" that I'd cause a bit of controversy with those comments, but I also think that some of you are taking my comments out of context.

I began with the caveat: "Looking at the ThaiVisa crowd I'd divide the prospective CBR 250 buyers into two groups."

The ThaiVisa crowd is NOT the demographic that these new CBRs are aimed at. (Well, maybe the first group (posers), but certainly not the second).

Sales of these CBRs to ThaiVisa members will perhaps add up to 1/10th or 1% of sales country-wide. The majority of the CBR buyers in Thailand will be young Thai males under 30. And while you think I'm dissing the bike I'm not- I expect it to sell very very well.

I just take exception with some of the keyboard warriors who think this new CBR 250 is the best thing since sliced bread. Compared to the original 45 Hp, 4-pot, 19000 RPM CBR 250 RR screamer:

Putting a CBR sticker on this new ~20Hp thumper is a bit silly IMO. There was a hope and expectation among bike enthusiasts that Honda would raise the bar with their new CBR 250, or at least try to make something as exciting as the original CBR 250RR. The only thing I find exciting about the new CBR is the option of ABS on a 250cc bike. Other than that it's a dud compared to the original CBR 250RR.

But as with Kawasaki and their unfortunate misuse of the "Ninja" logo on EX model bikes which really ought to be reserved for ZX model bikes, I guess Honda has also let marketing take precedence over accuracy and is willing to spread the CBR name around rather liberally.

But let's forget Thailand for a sec with it's limited choice of small bikes and ridiculous mark-ups on large cc imports. In the rest of the world these new CBRs are aimed squarely at young new riders and girls. The little Ninjette 250 has been a perennial best seller for Kawasaki because it's CHEAP and very easy to ride. It's a favorite learners bike in many countries. MSRP for the CBR 250 in the US is IDENTICAL to the Ninja 250R: $3999

So, price being EQUAL, how to differentiate the two?

IMO the CBR 250 will be an even easier bike for beginners than the Ninja 250R thanks to the torque of it's single cylinder engine. As I've said a number of times, offering ABS on a 250cc bike is REVOLUTIONARY and Honda is to be congratulated and commended to bringing this life saving technology to small bikes at an affordable price.

But what makes it a good beginners bike may also be a handicap. New riders may soon outgrow the little CBR thumper and crave a bike with more power. Also, like the Ninjette, but even more, so the new CBR 250 will be woefully underpowered for riding two up. I did a bit of touring two up with my old Ninjette and with a 45Kg passenger the bike was a dog. Adding (or cutting) weight from small displacement motorcycles makes a BIG difference in power to weight ratios.

At the end of the day it does not matter one bit what you ride as long as you are having FUN!

If a Honda Phantom or Kawasaki Boss puts a smile on your face then more power to you!

The new CBR 250 looks great, is very cheap and no doubt will be of typical excellent Honda build quality.

Heartfelt congratulations to those of you who have bought or are buying one!

Happy Trails!

Tony

I'm gad you touched upon the branding; however it's odd that what seems to be your major only criticsm of the CBR is its badging. I don't remember you making a stink about the Ninja, which was launched the same year as the ZX-2R, and is also similarily not up to snuff in regards to performance as the predecesor.

I don't doubt that the sales of the CBR 250R to expats will be less than 1% of total sales; however what % of sales of the Ninja went to expats? When they first came out there were what, a dozen+ owners here on Thaivisa? Now it seems there are 3 or so owners here on TV. You've shown pictures of group rides where there were more than 20 Ninjettes, all apparently owned by Thais; while you can't directly extrapolate the numbers meaningfully, it would seem that Kawasaki, even though they depended on expat sales, wouldn't seem to be doing too good of a job selling them to the locals. I'm just saying....

I also take exception at your attempt to conflate the Ninja's sales with a superior class of riders. In fact a full 62% of sales (in the States) are first time buyers (with 42% of total sales going to people who have ridden less than 6 months--so ~20% of sales are to people who have 6+ months riding someone else's bike) and a full 33% are women (compared to the industry average of 10-15% of sales going to women). There's going to be some overlap, but that means that the sales that you so sneeringly attributed to Honda's supposed market are in actuality some 2/3rds of the Ninja's bread and butter. Contrast that to what we can assume are going to be Honda's core sales in Thailand because posters on ThaiVisa in fact mostly live in LOS and that's what's important; 18-29 males who have been riding bikes since they were old enough to get their legs down to the switchgear.

[dave_boo]

The Megelli had the edge up to 8500, then the Kawasaki takes over. But once it has passed 8500 in 1st gear and changing up at 12300 it never drops below 8500 again (except 1st to 2nd when it drops to 8465 --courtesy of gearing commander-- but I think we can safely ignore that) all the way up through the gears to max speed, So it's producing more power than the Megelli for maybe 99%of the run.

As to your example with the 60kg bags, we would not finish at the same time since you have to pull through 1.2 times more rope than me with my non mechanical advantage pulley, you would take 20% longer. Ther's no such thing as a free lunch as far as gearing goes!

Sigh....did you miss my observation?

could not find the gear ratios for the Megelli; I did see though that it has only a 5 speed gearbox. It's safe to say that everyone's in agreement that 6 is better than 5 (I mean who wants to buy a five pack?)--after each gear in a 5 speed needs to cover ~20% more speed

Let's look at total gear ratios: in first the CBR is running 1.7% "shorter", in second it is running 7.5%

[dave_boo]

The Megelli had the edge up to 8500, then the Kawasaki takes over. But once it has passed 8500 in 1st gear and changing up at 12300 it never drops below 8500 again (except 1st to 2nd when it drops to 8465 --courtesy of gearing commander-- but I think we can safely ignore that) all the way up through the gears to max speed, So it's producing more power than the Megelli for maybe 99%of the run.

As to your example with the 60kg bags, we would not finish at the same time since you have to pull through 1.2 times more rope than me with my non mechanical advantage pulley, you would take 20% longer. Ther's no such thing as a free lunch as far as gearing goes!

Sorry, I missed this post.

Sigh....did you miss my observation?

could not find the gear ratios for the Megelli; I did see though that it has only a 5 speed gearbox. It's safe to say that everyone's in agreement that 6 is better than 5 (I mean who wants to buy a five pack?)--after each gear in a 5 speed needs to cover ~20% more speed

Let's look at total gear ratios: in first the CBR is running 1.7% "shorter", in second it is running 7.5% "taller", in third it's 14.1% "taller", fourth 13.2% "taller", fifth 14.1% "taller", and finally in sixth it's 18% taller.

Now, according to those two dynos I have linked to, the CBR makes 9.2% more peak torque than the Ninja. Thus it can run gearing 9.2% taller and thus have a higher speed RPM for RPM even at the same power.

I know that someone is going to look back at the previous two paragraphs and think that I've deflated my own ballon. Not necessarily. The important bit is RPM for RPM, which we know isn't going to be same-same. There's going to be times when the Ninja will be revved out further or vice versa. As such I modeled the 0-169 run between the two bikes. There are some serious assumptions going on with the model, such as the fact that the rider would have to just kiss redline, shift in microseconds, etc. It also does not take into account the fact that power does not build linearily.

So what's important with my figures? Well while there's no point in time where the CBR and Ninja match RPM we need to look as to whether the increase in torque is at least equal to the decrease in gearing ("taller"). Following? Now it would be simple to say, 'Ok, the CBR has a greater percentage increase in torque than it has "taller" gears in only first and second'. Simple but wrong. Remember that the CBR's redline is ~2000 RPM lower than the Ninja's, there's a lot of times where the gearing ratio is not going to be as simple as saying that it's 1.7%, 7.5%, or whatever. Throw in the fact that the Ninja will still be in first (until 48 km/h) and thus enjoy quite a mechnical advantage, there's a need to consider more things. As such you need to compare the gears at each km/h. Even then the gearing ratio by itself is meaningless because at lower revs there is less power; the RPMs time the gearing ratio is what counts. As such the following equation was used:

(CBR's Torque ) _{__}(CBR's RPM x Total Ratio ) _>/= 0 (p.s. >/= is greater than or equal to)

(Ninja's Torque) (NInja's RPM x Total Ratio)

Technically we could use the (RPM X Torque)/5252 and plot the torque (and as such HP) at each reference point (kph), but I don't have that data and this is a decent approximation.

Referencing above in regards to the way power is built; there are some serious misgivings I have since the CBR's graph falls off quite rapidly after 8000 RPM and appears to get below 11.5 lb-ft at 9500. So, comparing peak torque to peak torque at all speeds between 1-169, the Ninja has more power being put to the ground only 27% of the time: and then it isn't much--and then by an average of less than 10%.

I stick my my earlier statement; in a balls out race from 0-37 the CBR will be faster, 38-48 the Ninja, 49-58 the CBR, 59-76 the Ninja, 77-108 the CBR, 109-125 the Ninja, and above there it's all CBR.

Oh, and btw, much as the gearing on the CBR helps it, how do you not know my arms aren't 1,2x as long as yours?

[canuckamuck]

[quote name=dave_boo' timestamp='1293064352'

Let's look at total gear ratios: in first the CBR is running 1.7% "shorter", in second it is running 7.5% "taller", in third it's 14.1% "taller", fourth 13.2% "taller", fifth 14.1% "taller", and finally in sixth it's 18% taller.

Now, according to those two dynos I have linked to, the CBR makes 9.2% more peak torque than the Ninja. Thus it can run gearing 9.2% taller and thus have a higher speed RPM for RPM even at the same power.

I know that someone is going to look back at the previous two paragraphs and think that I've deflated my own ballon. Not necessarily. The important bit is RPM for RPM, which we know isn't going to be same-same. There's going to be times when the Ninja will be revved out further or vice versa. As such I modeled the 0-169 run between the two bikes. There are some serious assumptions going on with the model, such as the fact that the rider would have to just kiss redline, shift in microseconds, etc. It also does not take into account the fact that power does not build linearily.

So what's important with my figures? Well while there's no point in time where the CBR and Ninja match RPM we need to look as to whether the increase in torque is at least equal to the decrease in gearing ("taller"). Following? Now it would be simple to say, 'Ok, the CBR has a greater percentage increase in torque than it has "taller" gears in only first and second'. Simple but wrong. Remember that the CBR's redline is ~2000 RPM lower than the Ninja's, there's a lot of times where the gearing ratio is not going to be as simple as saying that it's 1.7%, 7.5%, or whatever. Throw in the fact that the Ninja will still be in first (until 48 km/h) and thus enjoy quite a mechnical advantage, there's a need to consider more things. As such you need to compare the gears at each km/h. Even then the gearing ratio by itself is meaningless because at lower revs there is less power; the RPMs time the gearing ratio is what counts. As such the following equation was used:

(CBR's Torque ) _{__}(CBR's RPM x Total Ratio ) _>/= 0 (p.s. >/= is greater than or equal to)

(Ninja's Torque) (NInja's RPM x Total Ratio)

Technically we could use the (RPM X Torque)/5252 and plot the torque (and as such HP) at each reference point (kph), but I don't have that data and this is a decent approximation.

Referencing above in regards to the way power is built; there are some serious misgivings I have since the CBR's graph falls off quite rapidly after 8000 RPM and appears to get below 11.5 lb-ft at 9500. So, comparing peak torque to peak torque at all speeds between 1-169, the Ninja has more power being put to the ground only 27% of the time: and then it isn't much--and then by an average of less than 10%.

I stick my my earlier statement; in a balls out race from 0-37 the CBR will be faster, 38-48 the Ninja, 49-58 the CBR, 59-76 the Ninja, 77-108 the CBR, 109-125 the Ninja, and above there it's all CBR.

Oh, and btw, much as the gearing on the CBR helps it, how do you not know my arms aren't 1,2x as long as yours?

Dave, you wrote that at 7:30 in the morning? I think you need to get out more.

How long until we see the first straight up drag, that will tell us what Dave apparently already knows.

Edited December 23, 2010 by canuckamuck

[mbox]

Gents,

I knew the second I hit "Add reply" that I'd cause a bit of controversy with those comments, but I also think that some of you are taking my comments out of context.

I began with the caveat: "Looking at the ThaiVisa crowd I'd divide the prospective CBR 250 buyers into two groups."

The ThaiVisa crowd is NOT the demographic that these new CBRs are aimed at. (Well, maybe the first group (posers), but certainly not the second).

Sales of these CBRs to ThaiVisa members will perhaps add up to 1/10th or 1% of sales country-wide. The majority of the CBR buyers in Thailand will be young Thai males under 30. And while you think I'm dissing the bike I'm not- I expect it to sell very very well.

I just take exception with some of the keyboard warriors who think this new CBR 250 is the best thing since sliced bread. Compared to the original 45 Hp, 4-pot, 19000 RPM CBR 250 RR screamer:

Putting a CBR sticker on this new ~20Hp thumper is a bit silly IMO. There was a hope and expectation among bike enthusiasts that Honda would raise the bar with their new CBR 250, or at least try to make something as exciting as the original CBR 250RR. The only thing I find exciting about the new CBR is the option of ABS on a 250cc bike. Other than that it's a dud compared to the original CBR 250RR.

But as with Kawasaki and their unfortunate misuse of the "Ninja" logo on EX model bikes which really ought to be reserved for ZX model bikes, I guess Honda has also let marketing take precedence over accuracy and is willing to spread the CBR name around rather liberally.

But let's forget Thailand for a sec with it's limited choice of small bikes and ridiculous mark-ups on large cc imports. In the rest of the world these new CBRs are aimed squarely at young new riders and girls. The little Ninjette 250 has been a perennial best seller for Kawasaki because it's CHEAP and very easy to ride. It's a favorite learners bike in many countries. MSRP for the CBR 250 in the US is IDENTICAL to the Ninja 250R: $3999

So, price being EQUAL, how to differentiate the two?

IMO the CBR 250 will be an even easier bike for beginners than the Ninja 250R thanks to the torque of it's single cylinder engine. As I've said a number of times, offering ABS on a 250cc bike is REVOLUTIONARY and Honda is to be congratulated and commended to bringing this life saving technology to small bikes at an affordable price.

But what makes it a good beginners bike may also be a handicap. New riders may soon outgrow the little CBR thumper and crave a bike with more power. Also, like the Ninjette, but even more, so the new CBR 250 will be woefully underpowered for riding two up. I did a bit of touring two up with my old Ninjette and with a 45Kg passenger the bike was a dog. Adding (or cutting) weight from small displacement motorcycles makes a BIG difference in power to weight ratios.

At the end of the day it does not matter one bit what you ride as long as you are having FUN!

If a Honda Phantom or Kawasaki Boss puts a smile on your face then more power to you!

The new CBR 250 looks great, is very cheap and no doubt will be of typical excellent Honda build quality.

Heartfelt congratulations to those of you who have bought or are buying one!

Happy Trails!

Tony

I'm gad you touched upon the branding; however it's odd that what seems to be your major only criticsm of the CBR is its badging. I don't remember you making a stink about the Ninja, which was launched the same year as the ZX-2R, and is also similarily not up to snuff in regards to performance as the predecesor.

I don't doubt that the sales of the CBR 250R to expats will be less than 1% of total sales; however what % of sales of the Ninja went to expats? When they first came out there were what, a dozen+ owners here on Thaivisa? Now it seems there are 3 or so owners here on TV. You've shown pictures of group rides where there were more than 20 Ninjettes, all apparently owned by Thais; while you can't directly extrapolate the numbers meaningfully, it would seem that Kawasaki, even though they depended on expat sales, wouldn't seem to be doing too good of a job selling them to the locals. I'm just saying....

I also take exception at your attempt to conflate the Ninja's sales with a superior class of riders. In fact a full 62% of sales (in the States) are first time buyers (with 42% of total sales going to people who have ridden less than 6 months--so ~20% of sales are to people who have 6+ months riding someone else's bike) and a full 33% are women (compared to the industry average of 10-15% of sales going to women). There's going to be some overlap, but that means that the sales that you so sneeringly attributed to Honda's supposed market are in actuality some 2/3rds of the Ninja's bread and butter. Contrast that to what we can assume are going to be Honda's core sales in Thailand because posters on ThaiVisa in fact mostly live in LOS and that's what's important; 18-29 males who have been riding bikes since they were old enough to get their legs down to the switchgear.

Dave its a CBR thread not a ninja thread - but here my thoughts.....just because there aren't as many thaivisa member posting about the ninja 250 here doesn't mean they have bad sales to foreigners. But maybe Thais like it also ... we are in Thailand & there are more Thais than Foreigners and Thais Ride Motorbikes too so it may just be the right market to approach for Kawasaki ?

But then again who says sales are bad to foreigners?Do we actually know it - i think not. Remember on the Ninja thread you have at least 6 posters banned which may or may not have owned a Ninja 250.And maybe the other ones are happy enough to ride without needing to post on forums or are member of other forums.

The Link provided is interesting but from 2008 .....thats more than 2 years ago , markets change so does the world economics change since the report was made from Bill Sterner we also faced the worst economical Crises since decades ...the Bike he reported on may not have change much, but the Sales and clients may have?

I believe those Thias who wish to have a sportsbike with sportsbike character they still may stick with the Ninja 250 - if they would go for a sportish commuter they may actually go for the CBR150R - because of its lower price and its predecessor, the old CBR150, was pretty popular.

What will happen to the CBR250 amongst Thais will be interesting to see.....we don't know it yet until they actually sell the CBR250r everywhere.I can imagine it will sell well but the Cbr150R is likely having better sales.

I still believe it was a mistake not to bring a VTR250 (or a naked bike ) .... guess APe Honda knows what they are doing, or not?

One thing i observed...there is a huge hype about the CBR250R here which is surprising - is it really that great to deserve it? And what is the hype based on? None, but maybe now 3 posters, have ridden the bike and the other posters only compare nrs and specs? And how many users do actually make use of this nr's & specs in the real world riding?

In any case more Bikes more choices it is good for the Bikers,

mbox

[dave_boo]

Dave, you wrote that at 7:30 in the morning? I think you need to get out more.

How long until we see the first straight up drag, that will tell us what Dave apparently already knows.

ผมทำงานอิรัก!

So in actuality it was 0330...night shifts suck.

[nikster]

Gents,

I knew the second I hit "Add reply" that I'd cause a bit of controversy with those comments, but I also think that some of you are taking my comments out of context.

I began with the caveat: "Looking at the ThaiVisa crowd I'd divide the prospective CBR 250 buyers into two groups."

The ThaiVisa crowd is NOT the demographic that these new CBRs are aimed at. (Well, maybe the first group (posers), but certainly not the second).

Sales of these CBRs to ThaiVisa members will perhaps add up to 1/10th or 1% of sales country-wide. The majority of the CBR buyers in Thailand will be young Thai males under 30. And while you think I'm dissing the bike I'm not- I expect it to sell very very well.

I just take exception with some of the keyboard warriors who think this new CBR 250 is the best thing since sliced bread. Compared to the original 45 Hp, 4-pot, 19000 RPM CBR 250 RR screamer:

Putting a CBR sticker on this new ~20Hp thumper is a bit silly IMO. There was a hope and expectation among bike enthusiasts that Honda would raise the bar with their new CBR 250, or at least try to make something as exciting as the original CBR 250RR. The only thing I find exciting about the new CBR is the option of ABS on a 250cc bike. Other than that it's a dud compared to the original CBR 250RR.

But as with Kawasaki and their unfortunate misuse of the "Ninja" logo on EX model bikes which really ought to be reserved for ZX model bikes, I guess Honda has also let marketing take precedence over accuracy and is willing to spread the CBR name around rather liberally.

But let's forget Thailand for a sec with it's limited choice of small bikes and ridiculous mark-ups on large cc imports. In the rest of the world these new CBRs are aimed squarely at young new riders and girls. The little Ninjette 250 has been a perennial best seller for Kawasaki because it's CHEAP and very easy to ride. It's a favorite learners bike in many countries. MSRP for the CBR 250 in the US is IDENTICAL to the Ninja 250R: $3999

So, price being EQUAL, how to differentiate the two?

IMO the CBR 250 will be an even easier bike for beginners than the Ninja 250R thanks to the torque of it's single cylinder engine. As I've said a number of times, offering ABS on a 250cc bike is REVOLUTIONARY and Honda is to be congratulated and commended to bringing this life saving technology to small bikes at an affordable price.

But what makes it a good beginners bike may also be a handicap. New riders may soon outgrow the little CBR thumper and crave a bike with more power. Also, like the Ninjette, but even more, so the new CBR 250 will be woefully underpowered for riding two up. I did a bit of touring two up with my old Ninjette and with a 45Kg passenger the bike was a dog. Adding (or cutting) weight from small displacement motorcycles makes a BIG difference in power to weight ratios.

At the end of the day it does not matter one bit what you ride as long as you are having FUN!

If a Honda Phantom or Kawasaki Boss puts a smile on your face then more power to you!

The new CBR 250 looks great, is very cheap and no doubt will be of typical excellent Honda build quality.

Heartfelt congratulations to those of you who have bought or are buying one!

Happy Trails!

Tony

Totally agree with that.

I can attest to the most important quality of a bike: The smile factor is definitely there. I was grinning all the way up Doi Suthep on this little bike.

[dave_boo]

Dave its a CBR thread not a ninja thread - but here my thoughts.....just because there aren't as many thaivisa member posting about the ninja 250 here doesn't mean they have bad sales to foreigners. But maybe Thais like it also ... we are in Thailand & there are more Thais than Foreigners and Thais Ride Motorbikes too so it may just be the right market to approach for Kawasaki ?

But then again who says sales are bad to foreigners?Do we actually know it - i think not. Remember on the Ninja thread you have at least 6 posters banned which may or may not have owned a Ninja 250.And maybe the other ones are happy enough to ride without needing to post on forums or are member of other forums.

The Link provided is interesting but from 2008 .....thats more than 2 years ago , markets change so does the world economics change since the report was made from Bill Sterner we also faced the worst economical Crises since decades ...the Bike he reported on may not have change much, but the Sales and clients may have?

I believe those Thias who wish to have a sportsbike with sportsbike character they still may stick with the Ninja 250 - if they would go for a sportish commuter they may actually go for the CBR150R - because of its lower price and its predecessor, the old CBR150, was pretty popular.

What will happen to the CBR250 amongst Thais will be interesting to see.....we don't know it yet until they actually sell the CBR250r everywhere.I can imagine it will sell well but the Cbr150R is likely having better sales.

I still believe it was a mistake not to bring a VTR250 (or a naked bike ) .... guess APe Honda knows what they are doing, or not?

One thing i observed...there is a huge hype about the CBR250R here which is surprising - is it really that great to deserve it? And what is the hype based on? None, but maybe now 3 posters, have ridden the bike and the other posters only compare nrs and specs? And how many users do actually make use of this nr's & specs in the real world riding?

In any case more Bikes more choices it is good for the Bikers,

mbox

You missed my point RE Ninja sales; I was pointing out that Honda's going to do very well on sales of the CBR simply because they aren't going to have to hope for large sales to expats....

And as far as I know you could be correct on current purcahsing trends; but those were the numbers for the first year the new model Ninja was offered. I would assume that there would be an initial push by young males to get the 'cool' cheap bike and then it would probably fall back to historical trends. As such those numbers currently could be even more skewed towards the demographic that bigbikebkk was ridiculing.

I won't touch on the hype since others have, but would like to point out that your comments concerning merely looking at numbers was instigated by the CBR detractors. I have responded with real numbers crunched not gut of the feeling numbers in order to not allow a thread-jacking and possibly discourage future purchases of this bike. Also your question about numbers and specs being useful in the real world is quite surprising considering how fiercely you defend the Tiger Boxer. According to the prevailing wisdom of people who are crapping on the CBR the Boxer is worth less than junk compared to the Ninja, in fact there's no contest. However looking at the numbers closely and real world riding reveals it's not a bad alternative with caveats.

[LivinLOS]

Hili---First bike for me was the 350 Honda CBR. After a year or two I traded up to the 450 Honda CBR. I think you're having gotten used to the CBR 150 then moving directly up to the ER6n would be roughly comparable to what I did.

You had a 350 CBR ?? And then traded it up to a 450 CBR ??

Any link to these bikes ??

Cos I have owned a 400 CBR (NC29 Gull arm) and seen the early pocket screamer of the CBR250 (MC22), had a VFR400 (NC30) to use for a while.. All great baby sporters for mid size guys IMO.

Yet I have never heard of either of the bikes you claim to have owned.

[dave_boo]

Hili---First bike for me was the 350 Honda CBR. After a year or two I traded up to the 450 Honda CBR. I think you're having gotten used to the CBR 150 then moving directly up to the ER6n would be roughly comparable to what I did.

You had a 350 CBR ?? And then traded it up to a 450 CBR ??

Any link to these bikes ??

Cos I have owned a 400 CBR (NC29 Gull arm) and seen the early pocket screamer of the CBR250 (MC22), had a VFR400 (NC30) to use for a while.. All great baby sporters for mid size guys IMO.

Yet I have never heard of either of the bikes you claim to have owned.

If I know the bikes he's talking about, and he's old enough to have had them newish, than perhaps it's the fog of time creeping in?

Honda CB350(68-73)

Honda CB450(65-74)

[mbox]

Dave its a CBR thread not a ninja thread - but here my thoughts.....just because there aren't as many thaivisa member posting about the ninja 250 here doesn't mean they have bad sales to foreigners. But maybe Thais like it also ... we are in Thailand & there are more Thais than Foreigners and Thais Ride Motorbikes too so it may just be the right market to approach for Kawasaki ?

But then again who says sales are bad to foreigners?Do we actually know it - i think not. Remember on the Ninja thread you have at least 6 posters banned which may or may not have owned a Ninja 250.And maybe the other ones are happy enough to ride without needing to post on forums or are member of other forums.

The Link provided is interesting but from 2008 .....thats more than 2 years ago , markets change so does the world economics change since the report was made from Bill Sterner we also faced the worst economical Crises since decades ...the Bike he reported on may not have change much, but the Sales and clients may have?

I believe those Thias who wish to have a sportsbike with sportsbike character they still may stick with the Ninja 250 - if they would go for a sportish commuter they may actually go for the CBR150R - because of its lower price and its predecessor, the old CBR150, was pretty popular.

What will happen to the CBR250 amongst Thais will be interesting to see.....we don't know it yet until they actually sell the CBR250r everywhere.I can imagine it will sell well but the Cbr150R is likely having better sales.

I still believe it was a mistake not to bring a VTR250 (or a naked bike ) .... guess APe Honda knows what they are doing, or not?

One thing i observed...there is a huge hype about the CBR250R here which is surprising - is it really that great to deserve it? And what is the hype based on? None, but maybe now 3 posters, have ridden the bike and the other posters only compare nrs and specs? And how many users do actually make use of this nr's & specs in the real world riding?

In any case more Bikes more choices it is good for the Bikers,

mbox

You missed my point RE Ninja sales; I was pointing out that Honda's going to do very well on sales of the CBR simply because they aren't going to have to hope for large sales to expats....

And as far as I know you could be correct on current purcahsing trends; but those were the numbers for the first year the new model Ninja was offered. I would assume that there would be an initial push by young males to get the 'cool' cheap bike and then it would probably fall back to historical trends. As such those numbers currently could be even more skewed towards the demographic that bigbikebkk was ridiculing.

I won't touch on the hype since others have, but would like to point out that your comments concerning merely looking at numbers was instigated by the CBR detractors. I have responded with real numbers crunched not gut of the feeling numbers in order to not allow a thread-jacking and possibly discourage future purchases of this bike. Also your question about numbers and specs being useful in the real world is quite surprising considering how fiercely you defend the Tiger Boxer. According to the prevailing wisdom of people who are crapping on the CBR the Boxer is worth less than junk compared to the Ninja, in fact there's no contest. However looking at the numbers closely and real world riding reveals it's not a bad alternative with caveats.

Why is this question surprising ?? The Boxer rides & handles extremely well but the nrs/specs may not be the most arousing. Perhaps i wrote it to be misunderstood but I give more importance on the real world riding on a Bike, than what is on a specs-sheet.

mbox