Weather warning: Thailand's worst flooding in 50 years

[whybother]

Alligators? Or Crocodiles?

I'd like to know if that original story is correct? Alligators are native to the USA and China (though very rare in nature in China; more are held in captivity.)

If they are really alligators that got loose, there must be a story on why they brought them to Thailand. Anyway, not much difference between them and crocs . . . though crocs are supposedly more aggressive.

They have enough to worry about in Korat without having to also worry about alligators (or crocodiles) swimming around too!

Probably alligators since they are much more docile than crocodiles. Plus I believe crocodiles prefer salt water ... which would make keeping them in a natural habitat more difficult..

There are fresh water and salt water crocodiles.

[Deeral]

Freshwater crocs are very timorous and unless threatened will avoid humans at all costs.

however animals held in captivity may have their natural fear of man and other behavioural patterns disrupted.

Crocs usually eat fish etc and very few are a threat to people.

THe aussie "salty" is a big exception!

[creck]

I don't think it is the same procedure every year. The situation for water has been getting worse and worse. Looking at the web sites of the Mekong River Commission during the water shortage month of June (the beginning of the wet season) I saw that the Mekong was lower than their benchmark 'Dry Year'. I found some tables comparing rain fall over many (I think fifty) years and saw that there was a trend downwards in the entire Mekong basin. That is: there was clearly a continual reduction in total rainfall since the 1950's

Looking at the Mekong sites again now, I see that in the lower Mekong the levels are still below the benchmark 'Dry Year'. This may not be for long, since the levels in the Mekong bordering Thailand have gone up so fast during September that they are nearing 'Flood Year' levels - but nowhere near flood alarm levels. Checking the rain fall accumulation I see that the rain was late starting and very heavy in September. The total rain fall accumulation for this year is still low – so the Mekong level is not (only) the fault of Chinese dams. The rain fall record I refer to is at the Mekong river sites, not in the interior of Thailand.

Flooding in BKK will come from the north. The Korat province drains to the Mekong.

Interesting points. Do the figures that you saw take into account the amount of forest that has been destroyed over the last fifty years?

As you probably know, forest acts like a sponge. Less forest leads to less ability to absorb water and release it slowly. This in turn leads to droughts in the summer and floods in the rainy season.

If Thailand wants to take steps to reduce drought and flooding, the remaining watershed areas need to be protected and not turned into farmland. Once it is farmland, rainfall just washes off the sides of the hills into the rivers causing both flooding and erosion.

Let's take an extreme example and compare Haiti to the Dominican Republic. Both the border between the two, and the devastating erosion can be seen from space as well as on the ground. Go to Google Earth for starters.

I think I must withdraw my remark about past rainfall data in the Mekong basin. I think it was obvious I was working from memory. I have tried to find again the data I looked at before. I could not.

I did find a page in the Mekong River Commission site that gave some rainfall data since 1950. (mrcmekong.org/flood_report/2009/2.6-CC-is-there-any-regional-evidence.htm) Generally, there appears to be no trend. It contains two interesting graphs I would like to mention. One for Vientiane and one for Surin. These do appear to show trends.

The one for Vientiane shows a decline (about 150mm p/a)in annual rainfall since 1950, but the one for Surin shows a marked rise from 1300mm in the 1950’s to about 1550mm p/a (and rising) in the early 2000’s. It seems that 2010 may not buck this trend.

I was surprised that the MRC in this page turned aside from their own basin to discredit a report concerning northern Thailand rainfall, (Chao Phraya basin) that showed a reduced annual rainfall. Their comment does not dispute that the amount of annual rainfall in parts of northern Thailand is declining since 1950. (std.cpc.ku.ac.th/delta/conf/Acrobat/Papers_Eng/Volume%201/Banchaa.pdf)

For those interested, other pages of the MRC site shows deforestation data by area.

[Deeral]

I don't think it is the same procedure every year. The situation for water has been getting worse and worse. Looking at the web sites of the Mekong River Commission during the water shortage month of June (the beginning of the wet season) I saw that the Mekong was lower than their benchmark 'Dry Year'. I found some tables comparing rain fall over many (I think fifty) years and saw that there was a trend downwards in the entire Mekong basin. That is: there was clearly a continual reduction in total rainfall since the 1950's

Looking at the Mekong sites again now, I see that in the lower Mekong the levels are still below the benchmark 'Dry Year'. This may not be for long, since the levels in the Mekong bordering Thailand have gone up so fast during September that they are nearing 'Flood Year' levels - but nowhere near flood alarm levels. Checking the rain fall accumulation I see that the rain was late starting and very heavy in September. The total rain fall accumulation for this year is still low – so the Mekong level is not (only) the fault of Chinese dams. The rain fall record I refer to is at the Mekong river sites, not in the interior of Thailand.

Flooding in BKK will come from the north. The Korat province drains to the Mekong.

Interesting points. Do the figures that you saw take into account the amount of forest that has been destroyed over the last fifty years?

As you probably know, forest acts like a sponge. Less forest leads to less ability to absorb water and release it slowly. This in turn leads to droughts in the summer and floods in the rainy season.

If Thailand wants to take steps to reduce drought and flooding, the remaining watershed areas need to be protected and not turned into farmland. Once it is farmland, rainfall just washes off the sides of the hills into the rivers causing both flooding and erosion.

Let's take an extreme example and compare Haiti to the Dominican Republic. Both the border between the two, and the devastating erosion can be seen from space as well as on the ground. Go to Google Earth for starters.

I think I must withdraw my remark about past rainfall data in the Mekong basin. I think it was obvious I was working from memory. I have tried to find again the data I looked at before. I could not.

I did find a page in the Mekong River Commission site that gave some rainfall data since 1950. (mrcmekong.org/flood_report/2009/2.6-CC-is-there-any-regional-evidence.htm) Generally, there appears to be no trend. It contains two interesting graphs I would like to mention. One for Vientiane and one for Surin. These do appear to show trends.

The one for Vientiane shows a decline (about 150mm p/a)in annual rainfall since 1950, but the one for Surin shows a marked rise from 1300mm in the 1950's to about 1550mm p/a (and rising) in the early 2000's. It seems that 2010 may not buck this trend.

I was surprised that the MRC in this page turned aside from their own basin to discredit a report concerning northern Thailand rainfall, (Chao Phraya basin) that showed a reduced annual rainfall. Their comment does not dispute that the amount of annual rainfall in parts of northern Thailand is declining since 1950. (std.cpc.ku.ac.th/delta/conf/Acrobat/Papers_Eng/Volume%201/Banchaa.pdf)

For those interested, other pages of the MRC site shows deforestation data by area.

It would seem within the last 50 to 30 years there has been considerable change in the percentage of forestation of Thailand. I think it was during the 60s and 70s that the army was engaged in some pretty thorough deforestation operations around Thailand, I believe these were eventually brought to a close in the 80s?? THe thing is this type of deforestation for whatever reason can affect how land drains and even "normal" rainfall ca result in flooding and mudslides along way from the rain itself. The other problem can be of course that if dams "upstream" in other countries even, are full then excess water is released to flow downstream

Edited October 20, 2010 by Deeral

[craigt3365]

Interesting points. Do the figures that you saw take into account the amount of forest that has been destroyed over the last fifty years?

As you probably know, forest acts like a sponge. Less forest leads to less ability to absorb water and release it slowly. This in turn leads to droughts in the summer and floods in the rainy season.

If Thailand wants to take steps to reduce drought and flooding, the remaining watershed areas need to be protected and not turned into farmland. Once it is farmland, rainfall just washes off the sides of the hills into the rivers causing both flooding and erosion.

Let's take an extreme example and compare Haiti to the Dominican Republic. Both the border between the two, and the devastating erosion can be seen from space as well as on the ground. Go to Google Earth for starters.

Good post. I live on Vancouver Island in BC, Canada where logging has stripped all the valleys and hillsides bare of forests. The result is flash floods during heavy rains and droughts even during mild summers.

I am amazed when I drive from Khorat to Nong Kai. Nothing but rice fields where forests use to be. I'm sure that has to have a huge impact on things. Combine that with clear cutting they are doing on the hills up north, and you have a problem.

This increase in rain could also be due to the El Nino/La Nina???? I was in California during El Nino...it had a huge impact on the weather for quite a few years.

[ozzieovaseas]

If I lived in korat,i'd be worried about leaving my house and maybe walk on an alligator.

If Thai visa reports assumed correct, the up-country folk have absolutely NO trouble skinning farangs, i think 'd be more worried if i was the alligator

[MUYTHAI]

Alligators? Or Crocodiles?

I'd like to know if that original story is correct? Alligators are native to the USA and China (though very rare in nature in China; more are held in captivity.)

If they are really alligators that got loose, there must be a story on why they brought them to Thailand. Anyway, not much difference between them and crocs . . . though crocs are supposedly more aggressive.

They have enough to worry about in Korat without having to also worry about alligators (or crocodiles) swimming around too!

Good question. Most of the crocodiles farmed in LOS and SE Asia are a hybrid between the critically endangered Siamese Crocodile and the Saltwater (Estuarine) Crocodile. If the animals in question are American Alligators, they need to be captured or killed ASAP. They could become an established non-native breeding population which could potentially spread and compete with the native Siamese Crocodiles. The Saltwater and the Saltwater / Siamese hybrids are dangerous to Humans. The Siamese Crocodile and the American Alligator are generally harmless to Humans...especially the Siamese Crocodile. Very few Siamese Crocs exist in the wild and there are hybrids that have escaped captivity and are interbreeding with the pure Siamese Crocs, thus pushing the species further toward extinction.

Edited October 20, 2010 by MUYTHAI

[tpthai2]

This information was posted in the Nation yesterday. Does anyone have any additional information regarding providing assistance to people in the affected areas?

Seeking help/donations

>> The provincial flood prevention centre, Nakhon Ratchasima

Tel: 044-342652-4 and 044-342570-7

>> The Nation Multimedia Group.

Money and relief supplies: Tel: 02-338-3333, 02-338-3000 ext 3

>> Channel 3 News Family programme. Account number 014-3-003-689, Bangkok Bank Maleenond Tower branch

>> TPBS People Precinct programme

Tel: 02-791-1385-7

>> MCOT Morning News.Donations sought: dried food, boats, sanitary napkins, torchlights Tel: 02-201-6000

>> Candlelight Group Tel: 02-465-6165

>> Army Channel 5 Account number: TMB 021-2-69426-9, Sanam Pao branch

>> State Railway of Thailand. Info on routes and train services: Hotline 1690, and emergency medical service 1669

>> Maharaj Hospital, Nakhon Ratchasima

24-hour calls: 086-251-2188. Donations sought: drinking water, milk, dried food, infant and adult diapers, sanitary napkins

>> Money donations via: Krung Thai Bank 3013165804,

>> Nakhon Ratchasima branch Siam Commercial Bank 7902605487,

>> Bangkok Metropolitan Administration. Donations received at all 50 district offices Information service: 02-354 6858

[slapout]

I hope the assistance for the flood victims works better than the drought assistance which was reported to be blatantly abused, thus short changing those who were in real dire straits/need.

[mommysboy]

Alligators? Or Crocodiles?

I'd like to know if that original story is correct? Alligators are native to the USA and China (though very rare in nature in China; more are held in captivity.)

I wondered too, yet they do call themselves an Alligator Farm . . . there are Siamese crocodiles in Pangsida National Park, released in 2005 as part of a breeding programme. Either way, I'd rather not meet one without a good wire mesh between us.

We are about 50km south of Sa Kaeo town and to date have not had any flooding issues, occasional downpour but nothing that hasn't drained away within minutes. Rivers are very high though. While the people of NR/Korat are up to their waists in water, we spent the day at the SK Thai Boat Competition near Wang Nam Yen.

First 2 pics of the river at Khao Chakan - 1st on 21 September, second yesterday 18 October, maybe a metre higher.

And some fun on the water, boat racing today.

Nice pictures but I don't think that's an alligator, or a croc, in fact I reckon it's a long boat.

Is that the High Steet incidentally?

[billd766]

I went to the village market this morning in Klong Lan and the road was flooded to about cm on the way in.

The last time I saw that was in 2006 when we also had torrential rain and since then they have put new drains in.

The local kids were having great fun collecting washed off number plates and as the market ground was flooded they set up shop on the side of the road.

[billd766]

At least my son is ready for the weather.

[webfact]

Thai floods worsen as death toll reaches 12

Follow this link:

[somchai69]

Vietnam floods kill 41, survivors 'destitute': officials

Flash floods kill seven in Thailand: officials

I am quite worried about these destitute and dead officials in Vietnam and Thailand.

[mommysboy]

I'd like to know if these floods are a result of record rainfall or just general human interference with the natural course of things - e.g. damming, deforestation etc.

or is it a combination of both.

does anyone know of an erudite analysis of this flooding?

'Erudite analysis' !!!! on Thai Visa forum?

More chance of having a dry picnic in a flood area.

I don't think TV has ever had one piece of erudition since its inception many moons ago.

[Thaddeus]

I don't think TV has ever had one piece of erudition since its inception many moons ago.

Oh I think it has, quite a few cogent paradigms too....

[Indo-Siam]

What are the chances of Bangkok experiencing major flooding anyone? I can only understand minimal Thai and the TV news reporters covering the flood seem to mention the capital every other sentence as if flooding is inevitable. Can anyone explain?

In Bangkok, the scenario for significant flooding (50 cm or deeper in downtown streets) is:

1) Incoming high tide - particularly when tide is stronger than normal, due to closer than normal lunar proximity.

2) Rising river level, due to heavy rainfall up-country in preceding days.

3) Heavy rain falls on Bangkok.

When those three situations line up, there is nowhere for falling rain to go - it simply accumulates, until the tide goes out.

The tide table at: http://www.mobilegeographics.com:81/calendar/month/362.html shows October highest tides for Bangkok during periods 10-12 October, and 26 and 27 October. "ICT" is Indo-China Time - so the next high tides will be early afternoon on 26 and 27 October. If there is heavy rain up-country this coming weekend - and it rains heavily during the day on 26 or 27 October - LOOK OUT!

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[Atmos]

Alligators? Or Crocodiles?

I'd like to know if that original story is correct? Alligators are native to the USA and China (though very rare in nature in China; more are held in captivity.)

First 2 pics of the river at Khao Chakan - 1st on 21 September, second yesterday 18 October, maybe a metre higher.

And some fun on the water, boat racing today.

Nice pictures but I don't think that's an alligator, or a croc, in fact I reckon it's a long boat.

Is that the High Steet incidentally?

No not the main road in Khao Chakan, the bridge I took these pics from is about 150m from the main road at the Sa Kaeo end of KC - the 'main road' is the highway through to Chantaburi, 1 lane either side with a median/grass then 2x2 lanes in the centre for through traffic

Was back at the boat comps today, no sign of alligators/crocodiles

[sjjmmi]

Alligators? Or Crocodiles?

I'd like to know if that original story is correct? Alligators are native to the USA and China (though very rare in nature in China; more are held in captivity.)

First 2 pics of the river at Khao Chakan - 1st on 21 September, second yesterday 18 October, maybe a metre higher.

And some fun on the water, boat racing today.

Nice pictures but I don't think that's an alligator, or a croc, in fact I reckon it's a long boat.

Is that the High Steet incidentally?

No not the main road in Khao Chakan, the bridge I took these pics from is about 150m from the main road at the Sa Kaeo end of KC - the 'main road' is the highway through to Chantaburi, 1 lane either side with a median/grass then 2x2 lanes in the centre for through traffic

Was back at the boat comps today, no sign of alligators/crocodiles

Any pic's

[katana]

Pic of one of the escaped crocodiles being recaptured in Korat today.

http://www.thairath.co.th/today/view/120217

[leon1503]

I hope they safe some of this water for the upcoming dry season. See the headlines already from March 2011 WATER SHORTAGES IN MANY PROVINCES ALL OVER THAILAND, Farmers complain about watering of Golf Greens, Megkong at his lowest level in 100 years etc. etc. etc.....same procedure as every year,- please, wake me up after they learned something from it :jap:

i,m in between korat and chaiyaphum and all seems well down here . some flooding in fields and back streets but nothing to worry about . i drove around all day today without seeing even a puddle

[LaoPo]

Pic of one of the escaped crocodiles being recaptured in Korat today.

http://www.thairath....day/view/120217

Those are brave guys.....

LaoPo

[jcbangkok]

Pic of one of the escaped crocodiles being recaptured in Korat today.

http://www.thairath....day/view/120217

Although the picture caption says Crocodile, I think that might be an alligator. However, I am certainly no expert on the matter.

Can anyone confirm if this is an alligator or crocodile?

[SergeiY]

Pic of one of the escaped crocodiles being recaptured in Korat today.

http://www.thairath....day/view/120217

Although the picture caption says Crocodile, I think that might be an alligator. However, I am certainly no expert on the matter.

Can anyone confirm if this is an alligator or crocodile?

mmhh. It says "จระเข้" Now guess what would be the Thai word for alligator?

Anyway, few posts above someone came up with the information what kind of crocodiles they keep on the Thai "alligator 'faams'"

[jcbangkok]

Pic of one of the escaped crocodiles being recaptured in Korat today.

http://www.thairath....day/view/120217

Although the picture caption says Crocodile, I think that might be an alligator. However, I am certainly no expert on the matter.

Can anyone confirm if this is an alligator or crocodile?

mmhh. It says "จระเข้" Now guess what would be the Thai word for alligator?

Anyway, few posts above someone came up with the information what kind of crocodiles they keep on the Thai "alligator 'faams'"

Edit: and as I stated the caption says Crocodile or จระเข้ (pronounced chorakhe in Thai) but this word can be used to describe crocs or gators ... one would assume the caption would try not to be ambiguous but this is Thailand reporting.

Once again meaningless drivel from somebody full of himself and hel_l bent on replying to my posts to scream out his insecurities and unhappiness with himself. See: curmudgeon

Again, my question still stands. Can anybody verify from this picture if this is a gator or croc ... or hybrid of some sort?

Edited October 21, 2010 by jcbangkok

[Sam Drucker]

Again, my question still stands. Can anybody verify from this picture if this is a gator or croc ... or hybrid of some sort?

It is really hard to tell from the angle that photo was taken, which species that is (especially when there is earlier mention of these Siamese varieties here, that may not look like the common text book examples.) But I will say that in the photo, it looks like the guy in the pink shirt is attempting to give that reptile a Thai massage. I've had masseuses walk on my back like that!

In general, a croc is identified by a narrower jaw and pointier nose, compared to a gator's wider and more rounded jaw/nose.

Refer to this link with lots of photos/info on the differences:

Alligator/crocodile differences:

If they are truly alligators, I still have to wonder why anybody would have gone to the trouble to bring them to Thailand, whenever that happened?

And as someone else mentioned, I think the bigger concern would be that these escaped reptiles (if not all found and captured) could easily survive and breed and get established in the wild.

[jcbangkok]

Again, my question still stands. Can anybody verify from this picture if this is a gator or croc ... or hybrid of some sort?

It is really hard to tell from the angle that photo was taken, which species that is (especially when there is earlier mention of these Siamese varieties here, that may not look like the common text book examples.) But I will say that in the photo, it looks like the guy in the pink shirt is attempting to give that reptile a Thai massage. I've had masseuses walk on my back like that!

In general, a croc is identified by a narrower jaw and pointier nose, compared to a gator's wider and more rounded jaw/nose.

Refer to this link with lots of photos/info on the differences:

Alligator/crocodile differences:

If they are truly alligators, I still have to wonder why anybody would have gone to the trouble to bring them to Thailand, whenever that happened?

And as someone else mentioned, I think the bigger concern would be that these escaped reptiles (if not all found and captured) could easily survive and breed and get established in the wild.

Thanks Sam. The whole debate got me curious. I tried comparing photos too and just couldn't come up with an answer given the photo. Interesting to note, I am not sure I have ever heard a Thai talk about alligators .. they always say crocodile even when joking about house geckos (jing jongs) or the monitor lizards.

Also, sounds like the whole Siamese Variety may be the answer and what makes most sense but was hoping their might be somebody who could confirm through the photo.

Bottom line is I am just happy I have never lived in an area were they are native ... actually I did live in Florida for a while but never ran across one .. thankfully

Edit: They sure could survive and breed. Florida has a big problem with snakes that folks have let go that they had for pets. I forget which ones (Pythons?) but these suckers reach up to something like 30 feet long and were never native to Florida before. Now there are way too many to get rid of. The other concern is that these crocs or gators will probably approach people since they have had people providing their food for so long.

Edited October 22, 2010 by jcbangkok

[trojan]

I am supposed to be travelling to Sing Buri, Nakhon Sawan and Saraburi this weekend. Now a bad idea??

Planning to spend the long weekend in Nakhon Sawan also, Are there some members who know the current situation in the city

The wife and I live about 45 km south of Nakhon Sawan in the province of Chai Nat; we are high and dry. We went to church on Sunday two days ago and there was much standing water in the town of Takhli about 15 km southeast of us (the air force base there was under water).

I know that the Jiraprawat Golf Course on the south side of Nakhon Sawan is closed due to the rains but I haven't heard of any flooding in the town itself.

Hope that helps a little.

I live 65 km south west of Khampaeng Phet near the Mae Wong national park.

Yesterday and this morning the rain had almost stopped so I took my motorbike down to Nakhon Sawan.

I got as far as Lat Yao which is about 45 km north west of NS and there was a small flood about 5 km outside of Lat Yao and a bigger one around 10cm deep on the crown of the road.

A policeman ad vised me that between Lat Yao and NS there were floods about 50cm deep across the road.

I did what any sensible person would do. I did the shopping I could in Lat Yao and came home.

About 10 km from home the skies just opened up and there has been heavy rain and thunderstorms for the last hour.

Where is the smiley with the umbrella when you need one.

my wife is visting her family in nakhon sawan for the last 3 weeks due to fly back to the uk monday dont think so she cant even get in to town from her village not the placce to be traveling to at the minute they say the rain will last at least another 4 days

[Loz]

I'm told there are only crocs in Thailand. but people missuse the term "aligator".

[Deeral]

I'm told there are only crocs in Thailand. but people missuse the term "alligator".

The chances of it being an alligator are small.

Crocs have narrower snouts and you can see their teeth

as for the hybrid thing - I don't know about the breeding policies of farms but it seems highly unlikely that they would be allowed to breed hybrids using an endangered species.